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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:30 AM

Well, many here were so excited about the Arab Spring(!) and so you have it...

Congratulations!

What did you think you were going to get out of the deal? Belgium? The Netherlands?

What you now have is a nightmare to end all nightmares and despite many protestations of Israel and her "violations", wait until you get a load of what's coming to a country near her.

I wish there were an emoticon for "headshaking", because...well, just because.

Now go ahead and tell me all about how this is gonna work out for egalitarianism, freedom, democracy, human rights, a fair and impartial judiciary, and all the rest of that which comes with what has occurred and is occurring there.

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Reply Well, many here were so excited about the Arab Spring(!) and so you have it... (Original post)
PCIntern Dec 2012 OP
Recursion Dec 2012 #1
PCIntern Dec 2012 #5
Aerows Dec 2012 #33
tama Dec 2012 #75
Matariki Dec 2012 #125
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #82
rucky Dec 2012 #2
TomClash Dec 2012 #3
Old and In the Way Dec 2012 #79
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #81
rucky Dec 2012 #109
madrchsod Dec 2012 #4
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #6
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #11
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #14
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #20
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #23
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #26
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #44
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #47
tama Dec 2012 #77
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #7
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #72
bemildred Dec 2012 #8
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #10
bemildred Dec 2012 #31
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #35
bemildred Dec 2012 #42
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #93
bemildred Dec 2012 #98
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #107
bemildred Dec 2012 #118
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #126
bemildred Dec 2012 #127
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #128
bemildred Dec 2012 #130
Skidmore Dec 2012 #9
trumad Dec 2012 #15
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #18
UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #89
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #103
quinnox Dec 2012 #12
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #88
DevonRex Dec 2012 #121
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #123
DevonRex Dec 2012 #124
aandegoons Dec 2012 #13
DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #16
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #70
Barack_America Dec 2012 #17
tama Dec 2012 #78
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #19
B2G Dec 2012 #21
Enrique Dec 2012 #29
B2G Dec 2012 #39
Enrique Dec 2012 #45
Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #41
marmar Dec 2012 #22
quinnox Dec 2012 #24
TomClash Dec 2012 #84
grantcart Dec 2012 #25
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #73
JaneyVee Dec 2012 #27
tama Dec 2012 #80
Enrique Dec 2012 #28
FarCenter Dec 2012 #30
Guy Whitey Corngood Dec 2012 #32
Ya Basta Dec 2012 #34
Iggy Dec 2012 #36
Mosby Dec 2012 #57
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #71
Iggy Dec 2012 #83
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #85
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #37
Zorra Dec 2012 #38
Iggy Dec 2012 #94
JVS Dec 2012 #40
Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #43
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #46
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #48
PCIntern Dec 2012 #49
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #50
PCIntern Dec 2012 #51
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #54
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #55
cali Dec 2012 #52
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #56
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #59
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #60
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #61
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #63
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #64
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #53
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #58
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #62
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #65
freshwest Dec 2012 #92
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #96
xfundy Dec 2012 #66
PCIntern Dec 2012 #68
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #87
Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #111
zellie Dec 2012 #113
zellie Dec 2012 #115
Motown_Johnny Dec 2012 #67
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #69
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #74
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #119
mahina Dec 2012 #76
riverwalker Dec 2012 #86
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #90
LittleBlue Dec 2012 #91
PCIntern Dec 2012 #95
Enrique Dec 2012 #99
aandegoons Dec 2012 #101
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #102
Barack_America Dec 2012 #116
FarCenter Dec 2012 #104
Zorra Dec 2012 #110
Barack_America Dec 2012 #112
zellie Dec 2012 #114
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #129
morningfog Dec 2012 #97
Coyotl Dec 2012 #100
dkf Dec 2012 #105
PCIntern Dec 2012 #106
zellie Dec 2012 #108
garthranzz Dec 2012 #117
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #120
Enrique Dec 2012 #122

Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:44 AM

1. And there we have it

Israel's continued ability to steal land with impunity justifies propping up dictators in all its neighbors. You've essentially summarized the US policy in the Levant for the past 45 years.

Tunisia and Libya are both looking better. Egypt is dicey but an empowered Muslim Brotherhood is much better than a disempowered Muslim Brotherhood (for the US, at least; it might be worse for Israel but considering how often that "ally" kicks us in the teeth by ignoring our objections to the settlements, I don't really care at this point).

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:54 AM

5. There's that false equivalency again...pesky little devil...

"stealing land"...the tiny little strip of land that is Israel compared with the millions of square miles available.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:44 AM

33. That belongs to other countries?

Forgive me for being ignorant, but I believe that while Israel is a tiny little strip of land, Gaza and the West Bank are even tinier little strips of land.

Are you saying that some other country should give up land for the Palestinian people, when land was expressly denoted as for them when the founding of the current Israeli territory began?

Again, maybe I'm ignorant, but it seems a little like saying that if people in Austin don't like living in Texas, they should move the capital to New Mexico. That wouldn't cause any hard feelings at all.

Could you explain what you meant by this post, please?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:12 PM

75. Or real life example close to home

 

The "Great Hero" Jefferson and the Cherokee Trail of Tears.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:56 PM

125. ...

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:59 PM

82. I quote:

"an empowered Muslim Brotherhood is much better than a disempowered Muslim Brotherhood," and I strongly disagree.

An empowered Taliban or extreme religious Christian right or an empowered Muslim Brotherhood is not better than any one of those extremes without power.

I do not want religious extremists who think that everyone else should agree with them and convert to their religion or ideas to be in charge anywhere.

And in case you think that religious extremists out to convert everyone to the Jewish religion are in charge in Israel, I ask you to tell me the last time you met a proselytizing Jew who warned you that you would go to hell and displease God if you didn't convert to Judaism.

I'm pretty old, and I have yet to meet such a person.

I don't like it when people are in charge who think that everyone has to agree with them about things nobody can really know for certain or prove. I don't care whether they are in charge in Egypt or in Alabama.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:48 AM

2. I don't understand the tone of your post.

I think the bulk of us here are dissapointed because this draft constitution is obviously not the intent of the people who were/still are protesting in Tahir square. Yes, I was excited then and so were most of us. I don't regret it, either, despite this setback.

I still believe the Egyptian people won't let this stand - it just may take more time and more action.

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Response to rucky (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:43 AM

3. This is nature of democracy and revolutionary politics

They are messy, complicated and factional once the ancient regime is deposed.

The OP simply wants to justify Israel's actions and deflect criticism. Even accepting his premise, it's like saying Gitmo is ok because Chinese prisons are worse.

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Response to TomClash (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:23 PM

79. I agree

If the legal framework holds, the moderate ( less autocratic religious / secular) majority can steer this coujtry to a secular government....lets hope

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Response to rucky (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:54 PM

81. The poster is clear enough about his support for the

Israeli propaganda line. And that is what the post reflects.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #81)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:42 PM

109. Too bad there's no more "Shame On You" cards left in the deck.

I think my aunt used them all up playing canasta.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:16 AM

4. this to will pass into the history books.

empires rise and fall yet the people go about their daily lives the best they can.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:56 AM

6. Way to jump the gun!

I was one here who supported the Arab Spring and committed, along with joshcryer and others, to helping run for some 7 months a continuous series of threads on the Libyan Revolution. But while we supported the potential for positive change, we were perfectly aware that there was no guarantee on how things would eventually turn out.

And no one expected overnight results, even when revolutions succeeded in Libya or elsewhere. We may cheer positive developments, but we know that the ultimate results will not be known for years, if not decades.

Reaching a conclusion based on a snapshot of how things stand at any one point is far too premature. A variety of interests with differing ideologies and goals will continue to compete in the Arab Spring countries, as we're seeihg most notaby in Egypt right now.

The path to the future may look like a nightmare, but who ever said democracy is not messy? Look at the craziness of our own politics lately, with all the dire alarms about one extreme or another prevailing. And we have fairly long experience with democracy, and maintaining a pretty high degree of stability. For the others, we aren't anywhere near knowing "all about how this is gonna work out for egalitarianism, freedom, democracy, human rights, a fair and impartial judiciary, and all the rest of that."

That emoticon for headshaking would come in handy right now...for this OP.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:34 AM

11. If I could summarize the OP in a few words (as if the avatar doesn't already):

 

My Israel, right or wrong. (See also 'America, Love it or Leave it.' and 'Get a Brain, Morans!')

Or, more broadly:

The non-Israeli (brown) peoples of the Middle East cannot be trusted with self determination.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:45 AM

14. um... you are aware that a shitload of Israelis ARE these brown people?

I would guess you have never been there based on this post alone...

s{

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:02 AM

20. Jesus H. Christ, 20% of Israel's population is Arab. I have never been there, but

 

I know how to read. I was pointing out the OP's racism. Jeesh!

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:20 AM

23. ok fine...

i misunderstood... but in fairness, I had twelve ten year-old girls over here for my daughter's birthday sleepover... i jumped the gun.

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:28 AM

26. No worries. I hope to visit Israel one day. Always wanted to try my hand at

 

a kibbutz.

I've read elsewhere (cannot for the life of me remember where) that the current Israeli Arab birthrate far exceeds the Israeli Jewish birthrate, such that by 2050 Israel stands a good chance to be a majority Arab state. Thus demographics may trump religion and politics in the end. That will truly be ironic, eh?

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:16 PM

44. What color will they be? Or will we have to invent a new one?

I'm always mystified by the application of colors to people. When I was in Vietnam, I didn't see anybody who was yellow or brown. If you go there, you'll see a very wide range of skin tones. Sadly, most of their bridal shops have "white" mannequins and young women riding bicycles and motor scooters on the street often have head and face coverings and wear long gloves to avoid getting dark in an effort to conform to Western ideas of beauty.

We can hardly talk, with our identifications of Native Americans as "the red man" and Japanese Americans as "yellow."

We've come a long way, but we still have far to go...

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:13 PM

47. It's almost a truism among Marxist-Leninist critiques of capitalism that the

 

superstructure and the ruling elite use skin color (a non-essential characteristic) to divide the working class whose essence lies in its relationship to the means of production. (Same logic applies to gender and sexual orientation.)

That critique does not apply absolutely to this situation in Palestine and Israel, colored as the region is with legacy religious and colonization issues, but it is interesting to at least contemplate a 'single-state solution' with one man, one vote, such that the Israeli and Palestinian working classes could make common cause against the ruling classes and reactionary forces. Because, truly, the Israeli and Palestinian working classes have far more in common with one another than either does with the global 1%.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:18 PM

77. Black and White

 

Is how the prevailing culture "defines" colours/races of people, USA is supposed to have a first "black" president after so many "white" presidents. When Steven Biko was at court he said to the judge that instead of black and white, the judge looks pink and he looks brown.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:59 AM

7. Gloating over misery and violence.

Always a great personal trait to display, especially in public.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:48 PM

72. It really bugs me how much of a theme that is here re: the Arab Spring

I know there are plenty of DUers who wanted it to fail, and quite a few who very much still do, but it's been depressing to see how excited some people here get at anything that went wrong anywhere in the process.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:23 AM

8. Yeah, democracy sucks.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:25 AM

10. Morsi agrees with you... n/t

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:36 AM

31. What do you think about it? nt

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Response to bemildred (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:50 AM

35. i think morsi made a big power grab after a little juice got going

and i think the people were too excited about change to think through how to affect that change. they will get it right... eventually. heck, how many 'founding' documents did we go through here to get where we are???

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:09 PM

42. No, about democracy, do you think democracy sucks?

Whose side are you on?

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Response to bemildred (Reply #42)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:57 AM

93. actually, yes, pure democracy sucks...

it is mob rule. however, a republic with well codified and equally applied rules is awesome.

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #93)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:43 AM

98. I thought so. nt

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Response to bemildred (Reply #98)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:50 PM

107. so... mob rule ... rules? i hope you don't live in the USA.

we're not a democracy you know?

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:19 PM

118. This place is named Democratic Underground.

Democracy is when the citizenry govern, just as a Kingdom is when a King governs. Around here we believe that the people are able to govern themselves just as well as a King, or some group or Lords, or what have you. So yeah, I believe in democracy. You should move to North Korea, no "mob rule" there.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #118)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:08 PM

126. you have no idea what a pure democracy looks like

because it is never implemented... and wisely so. this place might be DemocraticUnderground, but i can assure you that it is anything but a democracy.

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #126)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:24 PM

127. Well then, neither do you, for the same reason, so you don't know what you are talking about. nt

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Response to bemildred (Reply #127)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:36 PM

128. ah, but I am not the one trying to defend it...

it is purely mob rule... but you know that; you just can't say it...

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #128)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:10 PM

130. No, you're trying to attack it, but you don't know what you're talking about.

Admitted it yourself.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:24 AM

9. I'm disappointed

in your attitude. I've always respected your intellect and humanity and this OP really falls short.

In regard to Isreal and the other nations of the ME, I would expect that we understand international law be applied equally to all, including Israel which is not above all laws of man nor has needs more sacred than your next door neighbor. I would also expect we recognize that peoples' struggles are bound by histories, cultures, and traditions of their own and that these are reflected in the choices they make at a national level. Not one state/nation arising from these events will duplicate our own and anyone expecting them to is naive at best or delusional at worst. At some time those struggles become those of the people of those nations and not ours. We have a great deal of injustice to address here. Perhaps it is time to give others the agency of their choices.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:49 AM

15. +1000

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:01 AM

18. +2000

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:20 AM

89. +3000

 

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:07 AM

103. +3000

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:35 AM

12. hate to disturb your doom and gloom but

 

I'm glad things are moving along in that part of the world. Things had to change and gives new chances to the people, it won't be all smooth sailing of course. The possibility if a new palestinian state is especially appealing.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:00 PM

88. An Islamic theocracy is "moving along"?

 

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:29 PM

121. What did you imagine they'd have? An atheist parliament? Nt

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #121)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:22 PM

123. ummmmm, no

 

But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that an Islamic theocracy is somehow better than what they had before. It is in no way "moving along"

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #123)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:48 PM

124. The reality is that they undoubtedly feel

a similar disdain for our government. I'm not saying I enamored of the results. But then, neither am I enamored with the govt of Ireland which denied a dying woman an abortion because it's a Catholic country, as they called it.

Elections have consequences all over the world.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:36 AM

13. Ya none of those people deserve life.

So lets load up the phosphorous. Our justification is at hand!!!!!!!111!!1!!!!

Edit to add sarcasm warning.


BTW I find the op to be about as racist a post I have ever seen. No less than the blacks are not smart enough to be free.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:50 AM

16. The Problem Is It Took Us Over Two Hundred Years To Build A Republic And Many Still Don't Like It

And we had so many more advantages than other nations...

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:44 PM

70. Closer to eight hundred. (nt)

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:53 AM

17. Yeah, *some* people can't handle freedom.

They're not educated or "civilized" enough to make their own decisions.

That's pretty much how your OP reads to me.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:22 PM

78. If you ask Founding Fathers

 

Only "white" (pinkish-pale skin) land owners can be trusted to decide for themselves - and for all others. Everything else would be mob rule...

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:02 AM

19. Congratulations to you too.

Do you realize that Israel is not innocent here and law applies to her too?

As to the spring, actually democracies is the best hope for the region and Israel.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:08 AM

21. Morsi isn't interested in an 'actual democracy' n/t

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Response to B2G (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:30 AM

29. and Morsi is not the Arab Spring n/t

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Response to Enrique (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:03 PM

39. He's the direct result of it.

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Response to B2G (Reply #39)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:27 PM

45. so is Elbaradei

and everyone else who is bravely protesting Morsi.

If you declare that Morsi is the result of the Arab Spring, you are abandoning everyone who is fighting against him.

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Response to B2G (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:09 PM

41. Morsi won the election, the constitution will go to a popular vote.

Sounds pretty much like an "actual democracy."

They do have anti-government demonstrations in actual democracies, too, you know.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:14 AM

22. First off, this OP is disgusting......


........ Secondly, democracy typically doesn't happen instantly. Fits and starts.


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Response to marmar (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:21 AM

24. it sounds as if the OP wanted the status quo forever

 

And are afraid of change in the region.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:16 PM

84. Cui bono?

It is a rhetorical question.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:26 AM

25. How many years was it after we declared ourselves independent with 'liberty for all' and


all of our citizens were able to participate in the pollitical process?


200 years.


It is an amazing double standard you have, not unusual for country-centric Americans.


It is the definition of the 'ugly American'.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:51 PM

73. And how many before that were needed to get the philosophical underpinnings in place?

Democracy didn't start in the 1770s. The American system rides on precedents that go back to the 1200s.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:28 AM

27. The beginnings of our democracy was a total mess & very complicated as well.

Not to mention the unimaginable amount of bloodshed. These things take a while.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:28 PM

80. Not to mention the present

 

mess of oligarchic kleptocracy and police state measures and state terror against the mob of "we the people"...

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:30 AM

28. i think people were more realistic than that

and so the taunting about Belgium and the Netherlands is unfair.

By the way, it isn't clear what developments you are referring to when you declare your nightmare to end all nightmares.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:31 AM

30. The majority of Arabs are Muslims and are anti-Israel

So naturally, democratic governments in Arab countries will be Islamist and opposed to Israel.

That would be consistent with the democratically expressed will of the people.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:39 AM

32. You're right. Those people needed to shut the fuck up and put up with their shitty conditions no

matter what.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:50 AM

34. Sorry but Israel's policies makes it a rogue nation.

 

Yes that is correct. And I don't say that just to be cynical. I say it because sadly it is fact. But I also say I will gladly recognize Israel's right to exist as a self autonomous country after Israel gets the hell off all its illegal settlements on Palestinian land and recognizes Palestine's right to exist as a self autonomous country. Until then Israel makes itself a rogue nation. And if speaking truth to power offends anyone, then, its not me who's offending. Its the truth they are offended by.



What this gentleman says
|
v
















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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:52 AM

36. Horrible Post...

 

I suppose the Egyptian people should have just STFU and lived under the U.S. supported Mubarek corrupt, bullcrap regime forever?

What a weak load of nonsense.

the fact HRC initially pushed back against the revolt in Egypt proves "which side" we're on.

FAIL.



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Response to Iggy (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:08 PM

57. its possible that the arab spring will help the region

But for now the honest truth is that it's hurting arabs. Egypt has basically one industry, tourism and since the islamists came into power tourism is down 70%. Right now the islamists are discussing destroying the sphinx and pyramids because they are "symbols of paganism". 60% of egyptians are illiterate, the country is extremely poor and the islamists want to destroy the single industry that is profitable.


Islamists will eventually dominate Arab world: Tunisia’s Ghannouchi

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/30/252620.html

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Response to Iggy (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:45 PM

71. There's a depressingly large pile of people here who believe just that. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #71)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:01 PM

83. Yeah, I see that

 

the progressive bar gets lower and lower here.



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Response to Iggy (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:29 PM

85. The bar's certainly set with a shovel these days. (nt)

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:54 AM

37. We understand. The Arabs are sub-humans.

You can't trust these animals with notions as humanistic as democracy. They're a people destined to despotism, doncha know.



I have always liked your posts. This one, as the vast majority of responses should indicate, is disgraceful.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:00 PM

38. Submit. Obey. Do Not Question Authority! Do not rebel against tyranny.





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Response to Zorra (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:18 AM

94. Apparently Personal Freedom is to be Enjoyed ONLY

 

by white christians... preferable males.

brown-skinned, non-christians in other nations-- particularly where there's lots of OIL in the ground-- don't get to be free. they get murderous dicktators supported by the U.S. government.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:04 PM

40. I was never too excited about the Arab spring, but I wish I could unrec your OP because it is bad.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:11 PM

43. Whew. Zionist tells it like he sees it. Thanks for the honesty.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:05 PM

46. Classic hit and run post.

Fail.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:15 PM

48. Yes, I had noticed that a certain someone has gone conspicuously AWOL on this thread. Grr, that

 

pisses me off.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:34 PM

49. What should piss you off

Is the horrors which routinely unfold in the countries which are not Israel.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:35 PM

50. Can I be pissed off on both accounts?

Serious.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:46 PM

51. Hit and run?

Some of us have things to do besides sit around all day and opine about the world situation 100% of the time.

BTW, I never intimated that anyone was subhuman...that was someone else...and others who projected their hatred of the Israelis onto the board. I have never felt that way, but of course that's what people need to do.

I possess no hatred of anyone...that s why I'm a Progressive. But I for one am not going to sit around and nod while the radicals take over a major country and exercise and exorcise their prerogatives. Sorry, it's just not going to happen.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:56 PM

54. radicals?

 

Like the hard rightists of Likud?

Foxtrot Yankee, dude... Foxtrot Yankee.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:56 PM

55. Well, as I said, I can be pissed by the Morsi abuses

(That is not done by the way) and the abuses from tel aviv. Some of the Israeli policies make little sense after the holocaust...just as Arab policies, (quick what is one of the most popular books in the Arab Street? The Protocols) are also worthy of criticism.

Sorry, but there is plenty of propaganda on both sides and creation of a very real enemy.

I will leave it at that. Israel and the ME is like discussing religion (because it is)

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:53 PM

52. can't both piss one off? Do you honestly support what Israel does vis a vis

Gaza and the West Bank? How do you justify the building of illegal settlements and oppression?

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Response to cali (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:00 PM

56. Somehow...

 

THe actions of all parties involved makes me scratch the Middle East off of my vacation list.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:17 PM

59. North Africa is good

I'm hoping to do a trip to Libya before long. Libya Hurra!

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:20 PM

60. I haven't visited Africa in decades...

 

The last time I was in Egypt, Reagan was still in charge.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:32 PM

61. It will be a BIG change for you

I followed the Libyan Revolution closely, and joined with joshcryer and others in supporting a continuous series of DU threads on it for some 7 months. It was exhausting work, but I learned a lot in the process and am anxious to see Libya for myself.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:37 PM

63. I sounds like it could be fun... but...

 

I did promise my wife that I'd avoid high risk areas.

(Of course, I live in a city listed as "most dangerous," so it's a matter of perspective...)

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:42 PM

64. Your failure to respond to pinboy3niner's substantive reply in post #6 ff. speaks

 

for itself and gives ample reason for calling this, as WilliamPitt did downthread, a 'hit and run' post. Given that the overwhelming majority of responses are critical of your OP, your silence is all the more telling. You have neither the courage to defend your OP, nor the decency to delete it, in the face of near-unanimous criticism of it.

There's more than enough horror in this world, such that one can stay horrified 1000% of the time (to steal a line from the late George S. McGvoern). For example, it's estimated that 16 million American children experience at least one episode of food insecurity per month (and that 1 in 5 lives in poverty). Likewise, there's plenty to be pissed off about in this world. For example, our previous President and Vice President are self-confessed war criminals who walk around freely without so much as a by your leave. As the bumper sticker had it, "If you aren't outraged, you aren't paying attention."

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:54 PM

53. This OP makes DU suck



RL

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:11 PM

58. Well, it's not over yet. But it doesn't look promising. Then again, is it worse than before...

or is it a little better? Hard to say. But really, it's not over yet. Too soon to say how it turns out.

Same with Israel. Too soon to say if it will learn how to get along with neighbors that abhore it.

The Middle East is a mess. Always has been, hasn't it?

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:32 PM

62. Let's put Mubarak back!!!

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:43 PM

65. Bring back Pharaoh! - n/t

 

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #65)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:56 AM

92. I think that would be interesting. Still don't know how Belgium jumped into this discussion.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #92)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:05 AM

96. Yeah, this was a classic 'hit and run' OP, as William Pitt observed. But had the OP

 

ever returned to defend his hypothesis, I would have mentioned the glories of Belgium as manifested in the Congo. Ah, King Leopold, you hold out the beacon of freedom to our sisters and brothers in (North) Africa.

(in case it's needed)

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:21 PM

66. You know what?

We got the news from our (formerly somewhat dependable) media. So, unless you were there, are clairvoyant, or have a time machine, don't blame those of us who cheered on those who were trying to make life better for millions of people.

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Response to xfundy (Reply #66)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:42 PM

68. Somewhat clairvoyant...

We're we also clairvoyant when we condemned the Iraq war invasion a priori? Sure...

Bring back Mubarak? No, but why do we have to have this? Because that's how it happens over there. And I'm looking forward to all of the excuses people will make for the horrifying abuses and crimes, while in other places, people will be, and are, much less forgiving.

And this kind of attitude is what makes DU suck? That someone has a difference of opinion? It also made many regions suck as well in the grand scheme of history.

And none of these memes are mine, they're others'.

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Response to xfundy (Reply #66)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:58 PM

87. Much like PCIntern, I saw this coming from a mile away as well

 

It didn't take powers of clairvoyance either. Just a basic understanding of those countries. It's not like there was suddenly going to be a freedom loving republic in those places, the people there don't even cherish freedom as a value.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #87)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:24 PM

111. "The people there don't even cherish freedom as a value."

Which is why they're always in the streets yelling for freedom?

Your broad brush approaches racism.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #111)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:27 PM

113. Some do...and some don't.

 




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Response to zellie (Reply #113)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:27 PM

115. And the irony was totally lost on this young lad

 

?w=500

Interesting

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:24 PM

67. Freedom is a journey, not a destination.

They have finally taken their first, somewhat unbalanced, steps and you are unhappy about it.

Your impatience is irrelevant.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:43 PM

69. The whole time I've mainly seen people desperately hoping for it to fall on its face. (nt)

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:57 PM

74. You should really stop for a minute and think about what you wrote

Your post, whether you meant it to or not was a racist post.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #74)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:24 PM

119. He's a hit and run poster, without either the courage to defend his thesis, respond to his critics,

 

or the decency to take down his thread.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:13 PM

76. So we should continue to support despots?

We should not support people rising up and taking their country back?

Bye now.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:53 PM

86. ohfercrissake

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:50 AM

90. What the hell?

 

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:59 AM

91. Oh look, an Israel fanatic who doesn't like the Arab Spring

How boringly mediocre. *yawn*

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:26 AM

95. I fully expected this response,

And so I shall tell you why I posted the OP.

Someone suggested that I take the time to think about what I had written. I have spent the better part of sixty years ruminating upon my lost families; both sides utterly incinerated in the Holocaust. I have correspondence from that era in my possession,sent to my families here in the US, and they spoke of those go so quickly jumped on the bandwagon of hatred of Jews, of the exceptionalism of the necessity to denigrate and destroy the Jewish population, and the complete joy of many, nay almost everyone, who watched and participated in the rounding up and execution of the plan to eliminate the Jews from the society and of course, from the Earth. They were truly Hitler's Wiling Executioners. This included many intellectuals of all stripes and ranks and of course they were wildly successful in their endeavor.

So with nearly everyone dead, the relatively small band of survivors and help-mates were granted bythe United Nations, a portion of a tiny strip of land among all the potential enemies, yes enemies: the Egyptians, the Syrians, and all the rest, and given just one more chance to survive against all odds. From the first moment of her Independence, Israel has had to fend off those determined to destroy her and her people. It has often Ben said that if the Arabs laid down their weapons, as Egypt and Jordan have done so far, there would be peace, which there has been. If the Israelis laid down their weapons ther would be no more Israel and no more Jews.

Now of course, many of you will be sputtering your anger and protestations, and you know what? It doesn't matter to me or to most that you are so outraged by what you perceive, or believe that you perceive. There are many reasons why it behooves Civilization to maintain the Nation of Israel and those reasons transcend all your arguments. Your anger is lopsided, you disappeared from the Board here when cafes were bombed in Tel Aviv, when buses were blown up, when thousands of rockets poured into Israeli neighborhoods. You tend to re-emerge when some Israeli action is contemplated against terrorism of this sort. You found solace in this Board after 9/11 if you were here all those years ago, writing of th horrors of mass murder, I rarely read many posts when the bombings in Jaffa and Tel Aviv were almost weekly after Sabbath ended.

Well my friends, my family was mass-murdered and as I posted upthread, I am not going to just sit here quietly whilst there is a pile-on against Israel. There are folks who post here who are afraid your raining-down of outrage, of frustration, of anger, of vitriol, but many here posted responses to my OP hasd their pendula swing all the way Ither other direction. Nowhere in my post did I a vouch for the Mubarak Regime, nowhere did I say that these folks had no reason to riot, nowhere did I posit that it was ht inevitable. All I really said as that this is what many were excited about, and then it fell rather short, didn't it? This was enough for some to make me into a villain, a scapegoat, a hated enemy of all who are for the rights of the down-trodden. The anger, the personal viciousness of several of the posts was palpable. Perhaps you should hear a story, and then you might better understand....

Many years ago, when my parents had split, my mother of blessed memory got a job up near Trenton NJ and we moved to the idyllic town of New Hope, PA, known for its artists and writers colony. What you may not know about central Bucks County in those days was that it was a hotbed of racism and antiSemitism. From the first day we moved there, we were ostracized by the working-class inhabitants, I was called Jewbastard at the school bus stop, I was routinely pounced upon and hurt badly at times, and almost unbelievably, and it happened many times, the Police cars would see what was happening and keep on driving, even thought they knew exactly what was occurring because the cops were neighbors too, and their kids were involved. I never told my mother because we couldn't afford to move from the apartment to anywhere else. I suffered at the hands of these working-class thugs and their offspring for years, until I grew big enough to defend myself. As with all bullies, you only have to take one down and the rest cower in fear, for they are cowards at heart. All I had to do was take one do was take one down to the sidewalk and slice his ear against the concrete and the volume of blood was enormous. They left me alone after that, more or less; the bloodstained sidewalk was evident for years at the school bus stop, a reminder of what the Jew did to their buddy. I never had a major incident again.

So why the relation of the story here? Not to impress you with my fighting prowess,but to assist you in understanding that all I did was show up, and that was enough to be hated. All Israel did in 1948 was to show up and the Egyptialn dive bombers began that day and the war has not stopped since. Many of you will argue this point. Fine. But understand this: My OP had nothing to do with this conflict, but the knee-jerk response was certainly interesting. As to those of you who say you normally respect my opinions, perhaps you might take a moment between gasps and think that there might be something else going on here with which you are not entirely aware. Perhaps there is more to this than the propaganda form both sides would have you believe. I said "both sides" not for equivalency, but for fairness and equality and egalitarianism. Perhaps there are issues, stories, and other developments which are not within your ability to know about or to grasp given a limited range of experience. Perhaps before jumping down a poster's throat, a poster who has been righteous over many years here with respect to the need to expunge the Conservative members of the duly-elected government might have a valid point of view, or an opinion which, although it might differ radically from yours, may be well-conceived and worthy of some merit. It is the fashion of the Rethugs to blast those who don't agree in toto with every facet of their viewpoints. It is not necessary here, nor is it a valid intellectual exercise.

As a rejoinder, I am disappointed in many here who decided, because of my avatar and posting history, to exorcise me as a Demon of Zionism. Someday, many will come to understand what has really been occurring and what might have been able to be achieved if only there were peace over there. If your stand is that the only way there can be peace is for Israel to capitulate to her enemies, then thata is your opinion and you are entitled to it. As I am entitled to mine.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:44 AM

99. remembering the Holocaust is righteous

but not righteous enough to dehumanize Arab people, which imo is what your speeches do. The 11-month-old killed in Gaza was a real baby, not a bloodstain on the sidewalk in your imagination.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:56 AM

101. And what do you think you are doing to them?

I mean really think about it.

I can see Philip Sheridan making this exact same post in regards to America's attempt at genocide. I mean what the heck all America did was show up on North American shores only to be faced with arrows. They were rightly defending themselves right up to the point where the very last of my people still live.

Genocide and it's excuses are the most evil and vile marks on this earths history. I am so glad you are proud of your involvement in it.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:59 AM

102. "all I did was show up, and that was enough to be hated"

Yeah, that's all you did.



My fucking hero.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:55 PM

116. And Israel did a bit more than "just show up".

Unless PCIntern's family "showed up" in New Hope and booted his rival's family from their home. Then this foolish comparison would begin to make sense.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:13 AM

104. "among all the potential enemies,"

True. It seems that even you recognize that they were previously only potential enemies.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:15 PM

110. "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing." ~ Albert Einstein

Your OP distincly implies that we are foolish for supporting a populist uprising against fascism.

This is a progressive board. The most hard core progressives here hate fascism and despise fascists to the very core of their being. For some of us, our burning hatred of fascism is deeply rooted in the unspeakably wicked horrors that fascists perpetrated on the world in the 30's and 40's. Most particularly for what they did do to Jews, and other minorities at that time. For what they did to your family, and so many other families. For the inhuman things that they did to our world. It is difficult not to be inflamed with rage when thinking about these things. We never want to see anything like this again. (Personally, I view all fascists as filthy, vile, destructive, monsters, and am pretty much repeatedly on record here as strugging full time to eliminate RW ideology, which is the core of the diseased black heart of the fascism of the Nazis, from the collective thought processes of the world, ASAP if not sooner).

Anyway, naturally, a lot of us had hoped that more progressive Egyptian democrats would take power. Unfortunately, different fascists retook control of Egypt, and most of us recognize that these fascists may be more of a threat to Israel. This is deeply regrettable, and your feelings are understandable, PCIntern.

But for you to chastise us for cheering on the democratic uprising of the Egyptian people is misguided, IMO.

It's literally a God damned shame that the German people, that the people of the entire world, did not engage in a mass populist uprising against the fascists in the 1930's. Maybe things would have unfolded differently if they had.

Hopefully, the Egyptian democrats will succeed the next time they go after the fascists. Hopefully, all of us will succeed the next time we go after the fascists.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing."




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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:59 PM

112. I get that you're mourning the evil done to your ancestors.

I don't get why that means that millions of people deserve to be oppressed.

But then again, my grandmother, after a bit of drink on St. Patrick's Day, used to claim she wanted to travel to Northern Ireland to kill an Orangeman to avenge the wrongs done to her family. In reality, it was more of her identifying with, and taking pride in, her Irish roots. Many have noted how you changed your avatar before posting.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:56 PM

114. That is incredibly insightful and honest

 

and yet the meaning of your post was tragically lost on some....either intentionally or unintentionally.

Great post.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:45 PM

129. Your murdered forbearers do not justify what you posted.

Personally I'd be ashamed to use my own dead antecedents as some sort of "shield" on a messageboard, an attempt to justify bigotry and derision towards others. You, however, seem to have no problems at all with dropping trou and dropping a big ol' steamer right into the ashes of your murdered ancestors, in an endeavor to cover your own ass.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

You're here to inform us that we - like you - should have supported the Mubarak regime. we should have rallied for Ghaddafi and Ben Ali and the rest. Under the presumption that gosh, the oppression of Arabs is good for Israel, so we should support it.

No. Put bluntly, you're wrong. And invoking the Holocaust to support fascism, as you have done, is just fucking shameful on every level.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:28 AM

97. I don't get your point. Are you suggesting Arab countries are incapable

of democracy?

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:56 AM

100. I assume you read the draft Constitution?

Albeit, there is no hint of its substance in the OP.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:01 AM

105. Maybe the administration has decided Israel is not worth the backlash to the US.

 

I don't see the kind of effort needed to keep our influence in the Middle East that is necessary to protecting Israel.

It makes me think it is not much of a priority but more of a going through the motion sort of thing.

I'm sorry I can't be more positive but I don't see enough to think it will end well.

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Response to dkf (Reply #105)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:57 AM

106. Nothing in the Universe ends well, my friend...

Nothing.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:21 PM

108. Ah.... The Arab Spring

 

Can anyone be LESS surprised that we now have semi-sharia states ? Please.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:07 PM

117. What This hasn't been banned by the sanctimonious jury panel?



To make it clear: I'm not sure - no one is - where the Arab Spring will lead - a fruitful harvest or a barren winter. But the hypocrites who condemn Israel - and only Israel - should look not only around and over their shoulders, but in the mirror. Hamas has more human rights violations in a day than Israel has in a decade. But, shush. Reality doesn't fit the anti-Semitic bias - and yes, condemnation of Israel - "let them go back to where they came from" (hmmm, dog-whistles works both ways, don't they). Criticism of a policy - fair game, just like criticism of any policy, even of positions and politicians one supports. But the false equivalency between what Hamas and Hezbollah and the Arabs are doing - to their own people as well as the Jews - and what Israel does to protect itself?

Shame on all of you.

(The Thought Police will be knocking on my door any minute.)

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Response to garthranzz (Reply #117)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:27 PM

120. You have conveniently forgotten what Israel did to one of its own dissidents, Mordechai

 

Vaununu (who blew the whistle on Israel's nuclear weapons program).

That's assuming, of course, that you even knew who Vaununu was or is.

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Response to garthranzz (Reply #117)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:27 PM

122. what "the Arabs" are doing

is protesting in Tahrir Square against Morsi.

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