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Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:49 PM

8 Month Old Deaf Baby's Reaction To Cochlear Implant Being Activated

Heard this discussed on Stephanie Miller's show this morning.

Quite touching to see the baby's reaction to hearing his mother's voice for the first time.

116 replies, 15599 views

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Reply 8 Month Old Deaf Baby's Reaction To Cochlear Implant Being Activated (Original post)
Zorro Nov 2012 OP
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #1
Panasonic Nov 2012 #7
FunkyLeprechaun Nov 2012 #16
joshcryer Dec 2012 #20
pj9728 Dec 2012 #26
BainsBane Dec 2012 #36
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #50
saidsimplesimon Dec 2012 #59
roguevalley Dec 2012 #94
colorado_ufo Dec 2012 #70
rustydog Dec 2012 #98
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #72
sendero Dec 2012 #37
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #85
joshcryer Dec 2012 #99
obxhead Dec 2012 #46
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #51
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #77
ThoughtCriminal Dec 2012 #78
RichGirl Dec 2012 #90
roguevalley Dec 2012 #93
Panasonic Dec 2012 #40
FunkyLeprechaun Dec 2012 #41
Panasonic Dec 2012 #42
FunkyLeprechaun Dec 2012 #43
joshcryer Dec 2012 #80
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #53
AllyCat Dec 2012 #67
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #107
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #74
naturallyselected Dec 2012 #48
greymattermom Dec 2012 #66
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #52
AllyCat Dec 2012 #63
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #86
Panasonic Dec 2012 #109
Ty Templeton Dec 2012 #76
joshcryer Dec 2012 #19
hrmjustin Dec 2012 #22
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #25
joshcryer Dec 2012 #33
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #44
AllyCat Dec 2012 #65
treestar Dec 2012 #108
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #54
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #73
joshcryer Dec 2012 #82
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #111
rocktivity Nov 2012 #2
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #87
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #113
GreenPartyVoter Nov 2012 #3
LeftInTX Nov 2012 #4
Still Sensible Nov 2012 #5
blue neen Nov 2012 #6
Catlover827 Nov 2012 #8
pnwmom Nov 2012 #9
TalkingDog Nov 2012 #10
pnwmom Dec 2012 #30
joshcryer Dec 2012 #31
Why Syzygy Dec 2012 #68
roguevalley Dec 2012 #95
Moonwalk Dec 2012 #64
malaise Nov 2012 #12
bluemarkers Nov 2012 #13
Hekate Dec 2012 #28
FunkyLeprechaun Dec 2012 #35
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #79
Hekate Dec 2012 #104
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #106
FunkyLeprechaun Dec 2012 #105
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #110
joshcryer Dec 2012 #112
malaise Dec 2012 #39
tavalon Dec 2012 #47
geek_sabre Dec 2012 #45
FlaGranny Dec 2012 #57
malaise Dec 2012 #62
Why Syzygy Dec 2012 #69
grantcart Dec 2012 #75
Bibliovore Dec 2012 #83
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #88
roguevalley Dec 2012 #96
sendero Dec 2012 #38
VenusRising Nov 2012 #11
gateley Nov 2012 #14
TeamPooka Nov 2012 #15
PatSeg Nov 2012 #17
mckara Dec 2012 #18
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #21
Hekate Dec 2012 #23
ReRe Dec 2012 #24
Cane4Dems Dec 2012 #27
SleeplessinSoCal Dec 2012 #29
liberalmuse Dec 2012 #32
otohara Dec 2012 #34
geek_sabre Dec 2012 #49
Skidmore Dec 2012 #55
hunter Dec 2012 #56
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #89
Jersey Devil Dec 2012 #114
Aristus Dec 2012 #58
JNelson6563 Dec 2012 #60
oswaldactedalone Dec 2012 #61
ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #71
InsultComicDog Dec 2012 #81
nolabear Dec 2012 #84
zazen Dec 2012 #91
savebigbird Dec 2012 #92
rustydog Dec 2012 #97
FailureToCommunicate Dec 2012 #100
Ivywoods55 Dec 2012 #101
mfcorey1 Dec 2012 #102
Historic NY Dec 2012 #103
Xyzse Dec 2012 #115
Panasonic Dec 2012 #116

Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:53 PM

1. So cute!!!

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:21 PM

7. Not good

 

Not good. I Will explain later as i am using tablet and not my laptop.

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:51 PM

16. What do you mean not good?

The best time to implant a deaf child is when they are babies, it really helps with their hearing development as they grow up.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:05 AM

20. The only criticism I've seen is the "harm" it does to the deaf community.

Deaf culture is impacted by those who get implants, and I've heard within the deaf community you can be ostracized if you get implants.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:34 AM

26. Debby Downer

How could you say that? Cancer patients live also
and are not ostracized ... enjoy life & living!

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Response to pj9728 (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:26 AM

36. They don't see deafness as illness or disability

But a form of diversity to be respected. That said, it it were my baby, there is no question I would provide an implant or anything else to improve her quality of life.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:22 PM

50. You know, I try to respect people's beliefs

and culture, I really do. But speaking as someone who is hearing-impaired and who wears hearing aids, and whose development was impaired due to the sensorineural type of loss (it didn't get bad enough for hearing aids until college), I have a really, really hard time understanding that point of view. Especially since it greatly impacts their own children. Adults should have the right to make such decisions for themselves, but they simply should not be permitted to decide that for children. Sorry, but hearing loss most certainly IS a disability, and one that puts people at a great disadvantage in life. Period.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:35 PM

59. I agree liberalhistorian. My daughter, like Stephen Colbert,

is hearing impaired. Her's was a result of childhood ear infections, and a love of punk rock. Long story short, she required surgery for a life threatening infection in one ear that went undiagnosed until I insisted on a specialist. Her fear of surgery causes her indecision regarding an implant.

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:22 PM

94. I hope your daughter is well. Welcome aboard DU

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:12 PM

70. Sound is natural,

and even if the issue of speech and language are set aside, there is music, and birdsong, and laughter, and crickets and frogs at night, fire crackling, and so much more. It is selfish to deny a child that.

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Response to colorado_ufo (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:01 PM

98. The wind whispering in the pines, lovers whispering as they walk a garden path

"Hey, little one, let's play hide and seek!" the SOUND of the wind rushing past your ears...The baby has been given a great gift with the implant. The warm breath in your ear as your loved-one whispers: I love you so much.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:30 PM

72. +1. Disability or not, it IS a disadvantage to have fewer senses than others. It adds to the life

experience, the fullness of it, the interaction with others. It's one of the five senses. A person can certainly have a full life without one of them, but if there a way to give any baby of mine hearing, when he had none, I would certainly do it. That baby's expression when he hears his mommy's voice says it all.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:27 AM

37. I sure hope you are not serious.....

..... that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard lately.

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Response to sendero (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:25 PM

85. Wait for it. It get's worse. Deaf couples have used prenatal testing...

 

...to make sure their baby is just like them.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:03 PM

99. I hadn't heard of that one. That's incredibly fucked up if so.

Wow. Just, no words, really.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:50 AM

46. This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

If I were deaf and read about a new implant that could change the lives of the deaf I would cheer.

I've read a lot of dumb shit over the last year, but this is easily in the top 5 if it is the reason this is "not good."

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Response to obxhead (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:24 PM

51. Well, I agree with you, especially

since I wear hearing aids and life is so much more difficult during the times when I'm not wearing them. But, unfortunately, this really is a prevalent belief in the deaf world. I don't think I'll ever understand it, frankly, as much as I've really tried.

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Response to obxhead (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:43 PM

77. I think it's fine if someone as an adult chooses not to use hearing aids/implants,

and I totally respect that.

BUT, not doing it for a baby denies them the opportunity to make that choice later if they miss that critical development stage. Babies should absolutely be given implants. They can always be removed later when they're old enough to make that choice.

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Response to obxhead (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:48 PM

78. +1

Unbelievable isn't it?

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:53 PM

90. Who cares if selfish people ostracize you!

Wow...that is beyond ridiculous! If I were deaf and was part of a deaf community, if someone was able to have surgery to hear I would be thrilled for them. I'd continue a relationship with them in the same way that deaf people have relationships with hearing people.

Denying someone else the pleasure of hearing because you can't hear....height of selfishness.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:22 PM

93. true. I've heard that too. my opinion is its like abortion. don't want one, don't get it.

if they want their son to hear, then they have the right without ostracizing to do it. There can't be two different ways about it. If one doesn't have freedom to make their own decisions, no one does. Period.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:53 AM

40. Well, many seem to think so, but here is the problem

 

and believe me - I've known many deaf people who later have CI and have told me they regret it.

The reason cochlear implants are not being accepted in the deaf community is because there are beliefs that deaf people with cochlear implants will abandon the deaf culture, dropping their own identity. Many are ostracized and avoided, like a heretic.

Plus, the batteries for the CI is only good for 7-10 years internally, then you'd need another operation just to replace it. My wife and I have grown up in a very strong deaf community and understand why people are rejecting cochlear implants.

There was a PBS documentary called "Sound and Fury" - which discusses the pros and cons of cochlear implants.

and I have met people that already has CI's, and they all told me they wish they didn't have it in the first place because it's alienating a lot of people.

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:58 AM

41. I have cochlear implants

And it immensely improved my life. I got them quite late (I was 16 when I got the first one) so I am still learning to listen to music and the radio. I haven't had another operation to replace my CIs since I got the 2nd one in 2005, so my first one is 15 years old and is puttering along just fine. I grew up learning how to speak and understand how words are spoken. I was never part of the deaf culture (mainstreamed throughout my education).

I do know a lot of signers who got theirs around the same time as me (mid to late teens) and, since they don't know how to comprehend the spoken word, it was more difficult for them to adapt. Right now, RIT is doing a study regarding the correlation of sign language and cochlear implants.

The old school deaf people are really trying to hold onto their culture but I, as a deaf person who can speak and somewhat listen, think its extremely important that a deaf child learn how to speak and read, especially their parents' language (after all 9 out of 10 deaf children are born into hearing families). Forcing the parents to learn an entirely new language so their child can learn sign language because the old school deaf people feel that's "their" language is entirely unfair on the parents part and the deaf child's as well, further isolating them. Technology has gotten so much better that deaf children can have superior digital hearing aids and smaller cochlear implants and this can help develop their listening skills and spoken language earlier.

This is one of the reasons why deaf schools are facing closure, as deaf children are being mainstreamed more. Even Gallaudet was in a spot of trouble over their accreditation a few years back.

It's time to leave behind an outdated communication method and get on with the times.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:44 AM

42. I grew up on hearing aids all my life.

 

They are not outdated. They work as well as they can be - if your hearing loss isn't severe, then it can be useful. I was born profoundly deaf in a hearing family. My wife is also profoundly deaf, and has a deaf brother, but everyone else has hearing. My son is hearing, My nephew is hearing. So we are unique on our identity.

Have you checked out Deaf/HOH Forums here yet?

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:21 AM

43. I'm the same

Profoundly profound. I've been to the dhh forums but haven't been able to comment since I lost my star, I haven't tried commenting yet on this version of du.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:52 PM

80. Fortunately, since DU3, we don't need a star to post in groups.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:34 PM

53. Thank you, well said.

I live in a rural area, so a hearing loss without aids or any other kind of technology would be especially difficult to deal with. Even with my aids, the nearest servicer for them is in the nearest urban area, which is over an hour away. And my state recently closed its only deaf school. They really had no choice, as it was down to only a few students, even being in an urban area and being meant for students statewide. It is, indeed, time to leave outdated methods behind and get on with the new times. Anyone demanding that their children not do so is being selfish and borderline abusive.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:42 PM

67. Cochlear implants can't help all deaf/HOH people though, can they?

I thought there were some they would not help, so it is sad the schools are closing for those who might want them.

I worked at a relay for years and many of the employees felt strongly against CI. When I saw so many people against it, I formed a similar opinion. Until our son was born and had some hearing loss. We definitely wanted CI until we discovered his loss is so minimal, they did not even recommend hearing aids.

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Response to AllyCat (Reply #67)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:10 AM

107. Right, the implants aren't always recommended, and help some more than others

First, as I understand it, implanting a CI destroys any remaining natural hearing for the implanted ear, so it's not usually a good choice if someone has only partial hearing loss. Second, there's a steep learning curve for interpreting the sounds cochlear implants give you, requiring a lot of hard effort, and the further someone is from very early childhood, the harder that can be (even teenagers are pretty old for it). They're not a panacea.

There's a fascinating documentary called "Voices from El-Sayed," about a community where a lot of people are deaf (highest incidence in the world, very integrated, and most hearing people there can also sign), and the reactions when they're offered free cochlear implants. It follows the actual implant process for one young boy and his family, and what it does and doesn't offer and how that compares with what they thought at the outset.
http://www.firsthandfilms.com/index.php?film=1000298#film-1000298

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:35 PM

74. Can you hear all the spoken words of others? Or is there some cutting out or low volume?

Which is my way of asking...do the CIs make you on a par with regular hearing people, w/o a disadvantage?

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:53 AM

48. A couple of my students

One of my undergraduate students had a cochlear implant when he was quite young, and is very happy with it. He gave a lecture to my neurobiology class about the process, including a battery update, and what it has meant to him. He is doing basic research in a lab that studies the cricket auditory system because crickets have the unique ability to regenerate auditory neurons after they lose an ear, and this student hopes to pursue research that takes options beyond the ones available today.

I also once had a profoundly deaf student, and had a crash course in signing - I certainly couldn't lecture signing, any more than I could lecture in the first language of any of my English as a second language students, but got to the point where I could get by in private meetings with her. She read lips too, but she appreciated my efforts to learn to "listen" to her. I never considered her disabled in any way, and I have no idea if a cochlear implant was a possibility for her.

I am a hearing person who is confused by this controversy. I took these two students as they were, and never made any judgments about how they dealt with their respective abilities to hear.

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Response to naturallyselected (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:40 PM

66. birds too

can regenerate hair cells

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:31 PM

52. Sorry, but it's truly selfish

of those who do the ostracizing and who alienate those who are only trying to improve their lives. I don't understand it, and I'm hearing-impaired myself and wear hearing aids. I was twenty before I got my first pair of aids (the loss wasn't bad enough until then) and I will never, ever forget what it was like when I put them in and turned them on for the first time and that was 27 years and four pairs of aids ago. It was like the world just opened up for me. I wasn't deaf without them, but life was really difficult and people were so impatient with me because I couldn't properly understand them and was always asking for things to be repeated. Any "culture" that promotes such difficulty and alienates those who choose not to be a part of it anymore isn't worth it, frankly.

And as far as the batteries for CI needing to be replaced through further operations periodically: HELLO, hearing aids also need to be replaced every five to seven years, at an exorbitant cost (usually never under five thousand dollars) that insurance generally doesn't cover. And batteries only last a few days and seem to go out just when it's inconvenient to change them and it's a pain in the ass to change them, not to mention the PIA daily cleaning and maintenance. But should I and the millions who wear them just simply forgo them because of that? HELL. NO. They are more than worth the trouble. I would NEVER go back to not having them. For one thing, I couldn't function in the real world without them, certainly not in jobs.

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:33 PM

63. I understand the concerns about hurting deaf culture to a degree

but to ostracize an accepted member of any community for making a personal decision to have what that person believes is the best decision is cruel.

I've seen that documentary, but it was long ago. I'll have to look for it again.

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:28 PM

86. Seems to me like religion the problem IS THEIR'S NOT MINE.

 

SO STOP TELLING ME HOW TO RUN MY LIFE IN ACCORDANCE WITH YOUR BELIEFS!

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #86)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:19 AM

109. Well. I'm just telling you from the DEAF COMMUNITY perspective.

 

My wife and I agreed a long time ago, that if our son was deaf, we'd let him grow up and make his own choice if he wants CI or not.

Fortunately, he's hearing, so it is not the case. Our chances of producing a deaf child is about 60%, based on our history - I'm the only deaf person in my entire family - and my wife and her brother are the only deaf people in her side of the family...

We had him thoroughly tested and he's fine - no hearing loss, but he may be a carrier.

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:40 PM

76. I can't believe you mean that.

I was hearing impaired for years, deaf in one ear. I couldn't have a conversation in a restaurant or crowded room, and most importantly, music had lost much of its pleasure.

After eight years like that, I had a procedure that gave me back all of my hearing. The difference was a profound one in my life, and produced a period of about two months of constant, prolonged euphoric joy, every waking minute, that I had this sense fully back. To say it's "not good" is bizarre. It is the very essence of good.



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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:03 AM

19. Here's one of a 29 year old woman hearing for the first time:

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:08 AM

22. Joy, pure joy!

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:33 AM

25. Would love to hear her reaction to music

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:30 AM

33. She could only afford one implant, that her MIL got for her.

She went on Ellen and Ellen got the company to give her a free second one and reimburse her.



When she got the second implant it was "interesting" but not as overwhelming. I think the initial "hey, I have a new sense" feeling was probably the biggest impact.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:51 AM

44. I had a blind neighbor

who had an operation when he was 19 years old that partially gave him sight. He said that one thing that really floored him was seeing colors for the first time. He said he had seen them before in dreams, but didn't know what what they were at the time.

When I met him he was in his mid 20s; he lived in my apartment building. I sort of walked on eggshells around him, and he sensed it. One day he sat me down and said, "Look, I couldn't see anything at all until I was 19 years old, don't feel sorry for me."

Having known that guy puts this into perspective for me.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:36 PM

65. Remember, according to the insurance industry, hearing with both ears

is "experimental".

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Response to AllyCat (Reply #65)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:13 AM

108. hearing with one ear in her case

I don't get how the insurance she had did not cover it at all!

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:42 PM

54. Oh, my!

That reminds me of the first time I turned on my first pair of hearing aids, at age twenty. I certainly wasn't deaf without them, but things were difficult and the constant straining to hear and understand was exhausting, not to mention not even hearing so many little noises around us that we take for granted (such as the blinker sound turn signals make, I couldn't figure out what that "strange" noise in my car was until I looked down and saw the blinking signal!). I will never forget that and that was nearly thirty years ago.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:32 PM

73. It's amazing how many little sounds are part of the backdrop of hearing life

One recent Saturday morning I took a soak bath, and I was surprised to realize how much I knew was happening just because I could hear it. There I was, lying in the tub, and by sound alone I was able to tell when each of our two cats went to the kitchen to eat (and which cat was which; one runs like a herd of elephants), when a package was delivered (a knock on the door followed immediately by departing footsteps and a large vehicle driving away), when a neighbor started mowing their lawn (and thus also that the weather was good enough for mowing), when I received a text message (phone chirp from the bathroom counter), when the washing machine finished running (buzzer from the basement), what time it was (clock chime from the living room), when my partner got up (he turned on his laptop and I heard the start-up sounds), and more.

None of that is by any means critical to life, or needed my attention before I finished my bath and could have become aware of it through other means. Some of it probably wouldn't be audible or distinguishable via a cochlear implant (the external part of which which wouldn't be worn in the bath regardless). Sometimes, though, we don't think about all that gets conveyed by the tapestry of sounds around us; it's a lot more than "just" speech and music.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:57 PM

82. It actually reminds me the first time I got glasses.

I was in my early teens and I couldn't see worth crap (quite near sighted). When details came into focus it was just an incredible experience. Since I was home schooled I never knew that I had an eyesight problem and I was quite adaptable so my family didn't know either. I think they did take me to an eye doctor when I was a little kid but I think I refused to wear the glasses (around 6-7). That second visit to the eye doctor was amazing.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:45 AM

111. I knew someone who never knew trees had individual leaves until she got her first glasses

I think she was six at the time. It was an astonishing, unforgettable moment for her.

I got my first pair of glasses when I was 8 months old; I was lucky enough to have my vision problems diagnosed very early. I'm told I was staring wide-eyed at everything for a while. For the first three days, my parents put the glasses on me only to take me for walks; after that, I never took them off unless I was ready to sleep. I couldn't talk yet, but obviously preferred being able to see.

When I was 17, I got a new pair of glasses (a near-annual occurrence) -- and suddenly, for the first time in my life, I had stereoscopic (3D) vision. I'd never known I didn't have it before. It was neat but also somewhat disturbing. People around me were horrified that I'd been driving without seeing depth, but I was a more dangerous driver for the first couple of weeks after those new glasses because I was amazed and distracted by the way things were coming toward me.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:53 PM

2. He was so amazed, he forgot to keep sucking

Last edited Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:31 PM - Edit history (2)

which definitely doesn't suck.

I wonder what effect this will have on his learning to talk.


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:34 PM

87. E-fucking-normous. /nt

 

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #87)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:44 AM

113. Indeed!

And not just on his learning to talk, but, unless his family or daily companions use ASL, on his learning in general. Think of how much of language we soak up before we go to school, in terms of grammar and conjugation and singular/plural concepts and word order and question structure and vocabulary, and even how conversations work and politeness concepts and so on. Then think of all the non-language things we learn along with that, such as the socialization that goes along with communication, the answers from constant questions to parents/guardians/caretakers, and all the things that get mentioned throughout the day (just being around people conversing about things, even when they're not talking/signing to kids, teaches more than many people realize). Then picture getting to school and being behind your peers in all of those things, and thus having trouble understanding the teacher and/or the context, let alone the school lessons themselves.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:13 PM

3. Amazing and precious!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:16 PM

4. How precious!!!!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:17 PM

5. Beautiful! n/t

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:19 PM

6. That's so amazing.

What a beautiful moment for all of them.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:32 PM

8. I dare anyone to watch that without shedding a tear!

How sweet. Thanks for posting!

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Response to Catlover827 (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:02 PM

9. There are some people who think those implants are abusive to babies.

It's quite a controversial issue in the deaf community.

But I can't see that video and think so.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:08 PM

10. And by that logic prostheses are abusive to people who have lost or are born without limbs

I've read the arguments. I have not been convinced. If they come up with something convincing, I'll reconsider.

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:25 AM

30. I think it's because deafness affects communication -- missing a limb doesn't.

I think (but can't speak for them) that their belief is that deaf children should only be taught sign language, so they can be fully a member of the deaf community; and that it's not fair for hearing parents to make this decision for their deaf children.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:28 AM

31. That, and I think they don't want the children dependent on a technology.

If the batteries die and there's no way to charge them a child will be unprepared to communicate without having learned the ability.

I think it's a crummy reason to be against the technology though. Rather than be against it be for it and for dual language learning. Non-deaf parents of deaf children may be reluctant to learn sign, so, give them a discount for the implants if they can show that they've learned sign.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:57 PM

68. I think

the "deaf community" is wrong about this. The replies trying to explain that indefensible position on this thread don't make one think well of the "deaf community".

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:28 PM

95. self isolating is sad to me. there are even places building towns for only deaf and

family members. How freeing is that? I can understand their wishes and don't have a problem with their choosing. But their slag flung at those who don't feel the same way is no different than idiots choosing to impose their abortion ideas on others.

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:33 PM

64. Actually, a prosthesis and hearing-aid implant really aren't equal if we're talking about being....

born without a limb or hearing. There was a documentary about thalidomide kids and one had been born without arms. He grew up learning to use his feet and toes like hands and could do so easily. This because there were no prosthesis arms for little babies or little kids at the time (I don't know if there are now). So he learned to do without arms till he was old enough for a prosthesis. At that point, however, what was natural to him was using his feet. So the prosthesis was more a burden than a help. It got in the way as he'd never had arms and didn't know what he was missing or how to use what he was missing. He knew what he had and what he used--toes and feet, and he could use them as well as anyone uses their hands--to write, drum, feed himself.

So the prosthesis didn't work for him. Another thalidomide adult who had hands that came out from his shoulders mentioned that doctors wanted to remove his "flippers" and give him prosthesis and he panicked on that. These *were* his hands; he used them to touch and feel. The prosthesis weren't going to touch or feel and weren't going to be his "hands." So cutting off his hands in exchange for mechanical arms was going to hurt rather than help him.

Now our baby with the hearing problem is different; he's getting this implant at a time when his brain is still developing, when all stimulus is still new. A baby doesn't arrive knowing stuff--everything is unknown and learnable. So if the baby has no hearing then it does, well, that's a new stimulus. A new thing like the first time it sees a butterfly or touches the soft fur of a kitten. It's all new and wondrous. Once the person is past infancy however, they become used to what they know. They may know they are missing something--they can't hear, or see or they haven't arms--but it's not like they had that something and it's gone and they want it back. So adjustment is more difficult if the item, like a prosthesis, can't be given to the child at a very young age. They can't adjust to it as a new stimulus/part of them, nor can they easily exchange it for what they do know and are comfortable with (using their feet as hands, for example).

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:21 PM

12. So then why do people wear glasses?

This is beautiful

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:38 PM

13. because I'd bump into walls if I didn't

It would be considered abusive if parents didn't outfit their children with corrective glasses.

Sweet little video

I don't suppose deafness and nearsightedness are anywhere close in comparison, but I don't understand why some in the deaf community are so opposed to this treatment. My mind is open, and I don't want to just reject their side of the issue either.

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Response to bluemarkers (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:38 AM

28. Me too. But my best understanding of objections to cochlear implants is....

Yay contacts. Hallelujah LASIK. I wore glasses from about 8 years old, worse every year. Without them, no blackboard comprehension, no sports, no driving, and ultimately no crossing the street either. It would definitely have been "abusive" if my parents had not taken care of it. I know there are plenty of other DUers who have similar stories. It's just that we, with our glasses and so on, are fairly invisible and the culture at large really doesn't see severe myopia as a disability -- because it is so readily treatable.

As to your question, as far as I can understand it the answer is this: There is a Deaf community; in fact there is an entire Deaf subculture, and it is rich and lively. Over the generations people have managed to break out of their isolation -- and it was isolation that made (and makes) the condition so crippling. It has not been as easily treatable as myopia, so Deaf people stand out as soon as someone else tries to communicate with them. But if a child is taught Sign from infancy, and if its parents are also, then the isolation is broken and s/he has a ready-made community -- eventually. Like college. (I'm sure someone will correct me on that last -- but I'm talking of scattered children in the suburbs and rural areas.)

The objection to cochlear implants, as I understand it, is that in the end the Deaf community and Deaf culture will die out, and that something valuable will be lost to the world. And I do have some sympathy for that point of view. I will have to leave it to someone else to expand on that, because that is only my best understanding.

The problem is -- that baby. He actually laughed aloud when he heard his Mama's voice for the first time -- and he knew it was hers. What an amazing thing to witness. He laughed for joy.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:20 AM

35. The Deaf culture is getting smaller

Sign language isn't used as much as 90% of deaf children are born to hearing parents who are more likely to go the spoken language route.

I really don't think sign language is valuable, as it hinders deaf children from properly learning the spoken and written word. Services are changing, Indiana moved their outreach center out of the state deaf school because parents were saying that they wanted their child to learn the spoken word and previously, the outreach center had staff who tried to get them to learn sign language.

I'm deaf and I wear cochlear implants, use a little sign language but speak mainly.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:49 PM

79. Actually, ASL apparently IS valuable for spoken language, rather than a hindrance

Although Signed English and Signed Exact English are not natural languages, American Sign Language is, and can be a big help to children in simply developing language skills in the first place. Various studies have shown that Deaf children who learn ASL early on function better in spoken and written language later than those who don't. That's theorized to be because they get the early brain wiring on how to process language, period. (Cochlear implants in early childhood can give the same advantage, by allowing kids to soak up a spoken natural language.) Once the brain patterns and cognition are in place for language in general, growing up with both ASL and a spoken language becomes much like growing up bilingual with any other two languages.

(This is all per a Deaf Language and Culture class I took last year, from a professor who does audiology and language research and is a strong advocate for Deaf culture and values; I'd be happy to look up specific studies and references if anyone wants them.)

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Response to Bibliovore (Reply #79)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:59 PM

104. Thanks -- that's my understanding as well.

There's a "language center" in the brain, and it needs stimulating very early on, no matter how.

I've seen a few people using ASL -- notably a couple sitting in front of me on a bus -- and it is like watching a dance. It's so much more than learning how to spell with one's fingers.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #104)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:54 AM

106. ASL has its own grammar, too

While Signed English uses spoken-English grammar, ASL has its own grammar. Among other things, it makes good use of the differences possible in a visual language. For instance, many verbs are directional -- instead of using pronouns to say who does what for things like "I help you" or "you owe him" or "we'll ask them," the verb sign moves from the relative physical position of the initiator(s) toward the the relative physical position of the receiver(s), and does so more encompassingly for plural subjects/objects. And when comparing or contrasting things, it's not necessary to keep specifying which one you mean if you sign everything pertaining to one on the left and everything pertaining to the other on the right. (There's a lot more to it than that; those are just a couple of basic examples.)

It's a great language, and I recommend learning it. Beyond the obvious communication advantages, consider this: Around 85% of people become hard of hearing or deaf as they age. My grandmother's hearing started getting worse when she was in her mid 80s. She wasn't about to learn ASL at that point, but if she'd learned it earlier it would have been much easier to talk with her when she became hard of hearing, and she would have been less isolated.

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Response to Bibliovore (Reply #79)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:52 AM

105. I bet that's Harlan Lane

He hates CIs and constantly supports asl and is a bit of a whacko nutjob. ASL only has about 7000 signs (if you use fingerspelling that number rises to 300,000, and I think that's a bit of a stretch). The English language is very large and complex, for example the words beautiful and handsome are both complimentary words for appearance yet in ASL they share the same sign even though the context of both words are different. I really think people are really mistaken when they think the combination of both sign and spoken language and sign language improve English usage. I have heard that children, whose parents used baby sign with them, have become language delayed as a result.

My ASL teacher complimented the method I use (Cued Speech) because of its wide access to the English language (and other languages as well) and has said that he teaches at a school for the deaf and has to sign out overheads because his students could not read the English words at all. To say that ASL can help one learn English is completely wrong.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #105)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:01 AM

110. Different professor, actually

(Apologies for not naming him, but I tend to obscure personal details online, and naming him would pinpoint my school/city.) My professor emphatically does not hate CI; he recommends them in many cases, particularly early childhood. He notes that many of his Deaf friends and colleagues aren't happy with that, but he's very clear that his research (and others') suggests that early implantation can produce the best overall outcomes. In particular, he emphasizes the value of access to a natural language in early childhood, whether that's a natural signed language or CI access to a natural spoken language.

Cued English can be really great. Our class had a guest speaker who grew up with cued English. She didn't have a CI, but her twin sister chose to get one as an adult; as I recall, they were each born hard of hearing and became wholly deaf around adolescence. Her sister loved her CI (but noted how different it was from her childhood hearing), and our speaker liked not having one.

One message I got from the class was that there are a lot of heated feelings about different specific languages and treatments and technologies for deaf people; different things work better for different individuals, much as some people learn better from different teaching styles; and working for the best individual outcomes is more important than any given speicifc method.

English has more words than most spoken languages, let alone ASL. But just as there are some words in English that share the same sign in ASL, there are some signs in ASL that share the same word in English -- for instance, in English we say "run" whether we're talking about running a race, that something functions, running a train, fleeing, etc.; in ASL, those have different signs. Spanish uses two different verbs for "to be" (one primarily for space, time, and temporary conditions, one primarily for permanent states); that doesn't necessarily make it better or richer than English, simply different.

I can't find a chunk of my supplementary readings for that class right now (we got a lot more materials than fit in my notebook, so I pulled a bunch out and filed them in my Closet of Doom), but one was "Success with Deaf Children: How to Prevent Educational Failure," by Ronnie Wilbur, from Lindgren and DeLuca's Signs and Voices: Deaf Culture, Identity, Language, and Arts. In it, she cites many studies by researchers in various countries/languages that concluded that learning a natural sign language in early childhood doesn't hinder and can indeed help learning a spoken language; she said none showed it did any harm. She was talking about early childhood acquisition, though, which likely makes a big difference. (I tried to take an accelerated beginning French class that met immediately after my conversational Spanish class; I had a terrible time separating my neophyte French from my almost-fluent Spanish and wound up dropping the French.)

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #105)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:29 PM

112. It's closer to Japanese than it is English, from what I've heard.

I think that's why deaf schools are trending toward teaching English. My nephew isn't speaking yet and he's almost 3 years old. It's frustrating because his parents taught him this baby sign language thing they figured would help him out. It's not even sign language, it's more like point at stuff. It's made him highly dependent / entitled because he isn't actually communicating and his parents run around getting him whatever he wants. At that age I was reading Sunday comics (not necessarily understanding them, but getting some of the words).

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Response to Hekate (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:32 AM

39. I wear glasses too

Anyone who objects to denying someone an easier chance to cope on this planet to please a sub-culture will never have my support. If the technology exists, use it.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:52 AM

47. Sadly, there will still be many deaf people who won't be able to work on

So the culture will not die. I think it's petty of them to want a single kid to have to go through what they had to.

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:32 AM

45. Sorry, glasses =/= cochlear implants

Whereas glasses can provide normal sight in a non-invasive way, the 'hearing' that cochlear implants provide is not the same as what a normal hearing person hears.

As a deaf person, I'm not against implants, but I would not choose them for myself. But I don't think it should be a replacement for sign language.

Here's a video about a woman who has had the implant from childhood, describing what it gives her (and what it doesn't give her) in terms of hearing and communication. Watch the whole thing.

#!

Most deaf objections to the implants are not because of "our dying community," but because young babies don't have a say in it. Most want the individual to be able to make the choice for themselves.

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:31 PM

57. I can understand that

they believe the child should choose, but there's a big problem with that. By the time the child is old enough to make the decision, it may be too late to adapt or too difficult to adapt to the implant.

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:14 PM

62. Thanks for this

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:59 PM

69. Parents make all kinds

of decision for their children before they are old enough. That's what it means to be a PARENT.
That argument is completely fallacious.

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:36 PM

75. I would say that the expression on the baby's face makes it pretty clear what the baby thinks re CI.

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:02 PM

83. Thanks for posting this.

I've read that people who were born hearing, became deaf, and then got cochlear implants are very clear that even under ideal auditory circumstances with no background noise, the hearing they get from the implants is very different from what they originally got from their ears -- different enough that they had to learn how to interpret the implant sounds because they just weren't recognizable as what they'd previously known.

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:47 PM

88. And by the time they're old enough to make that choice...

 

...they're way to way past the neural plasticity necessary for MAXIMUM benefit.

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:35 PM

96. IMO, they can object but they can't speak for everyone. That is no different than

others speaking for everyone else on other issues. women, abortion, race. Lots of people want to speak on all those issues and its stupid and wrong. Deafness is no different. Either demanding conformity for everyone over an idea of some kind of community is wrong or none of the other demands made on other 'communities' is wrong either.

People should just leave each other alone to make their own decisions and then welcome that. IMHO of course.

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Response to Catlover827 (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:28 AM

38. I wasn't going to say it...

... but yes, what a truly moving thing that is.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:15 PM

11. That smile says it all!

What a sweet moment.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:47 PM

14. What an angel!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:49 PM

15. Hope, love and joy

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:54 PM

17. Wow!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:00 AM

18. You Made Me Cry

Beautiful child and video!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:05 AM

21. AWWWW!!!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:08 AM

23. He laughed! he laughed out loud!

I didn't know it was that instinctive, but I do know that vastly unexpected joy can take you that way. That's what this baby experienced.

Watching that mother and child was so joyous. Watch how they mirror each other's facial expressions -- they've had a wonderful bond all along, you can tell.

What a blessing.

Hekate

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:20 AM

24. Now, there's an example of some gooooood science!

That is so precious! I bet he learns how to talk in warp speed. Notice how he immediately looks at his mother's mouth. Its the first step in learning how to speak...
Watching mama's mouth and getting the good vibes her voice imparts.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:38 AM

27. awww such a cute baby!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:48 AM

29. He looked to me like he was trying to say "Hi" right back.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:30 AM

32. That is so sweet.

One of the responses to this OP prompted me to do a little "research" if you can call Googling "research". I'd wondered how someone could think this wasn't a good thing. What I read was people with cochlear implants don't hear the same as we do, and if it's not done when they are very young, the sounds can be overwhelming. I think this is a great thing, but it's interesting to try to imagine what it would to be like to have your silent world all of a sudden filled with hundreds of sounds. When you've heard all your life, and can hear clearly (implants could be like hearing underwater), you don't realize how much noise we can push to the background and filter out in order to focus on the sounds we need to.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:43 AM

34. Joy and Love

Science

Merry Xmas Jonathan

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:54 AM

49. Video: Hearing... but not as you know it

#!

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:58 PM

55. Thank you for that video.

I learned a great deal from a brilliant young woman.

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:27 PM

56. I'm not deaf but whenever two or more people are speaking I can't process anything.

I've spent too much time in pubs, restaurants, and other places where many people are talking and I only sit there and watch with no more than a vague understanding of what everyone is going on about.

If I'm engaged in some non-verbal activity I don't even hear the language of a single person speaking. It takes some effort and maybe a couple of seconds to engage the part of my brain that translates sounds into words and meaning. I usually don't extract the lyrics in music either. Songs I've heard in the background for years, I'll suddenly recognize them and know what they are about once I've read the lyrics.

For years I tried to listen to talk and news radio as some kind of mental exercise, but I can never stay engaged. My attention wanders and the words turn garbled.

I'm most at peace in a silent or at least a non-verbal mode but I'd really be uncomfortable without audible environmental cues; hearing a knock on the door, the dogs' and birds' alarm calls, etc.. If I could turn off my hearing as easily as I close my eyes I'd feel very insecure not knowing what was going on around me.

I think I'd like to live in a quiet world where everyone spoke sign language.

Thanks for this video. It's given me quite a bit to think about.

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Response to hunter (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:50 PM

89. Sounds like auditory dislexia. /nt

 

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Response to geek_sabre (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:21 AM

114. Thanks for the vid - never knew any of this

I feel so ignorant to not have known these things and now understand the debate concerning implants.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:31 PM

58. That's beautiful!

(I can't cry right now. I'm in a public place. But - DAMN! Beautiful! Life is good...)

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:57 PM

60. Very special.

This made my day! So wonderful to see such joy!

Julie--something in my eye

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:13 PM

61. A pox on all this negative talk

about cochlear implants. The OP was about the reaction of the child to hearing his Mother's voice for the first time and it was very touching. Take that argument somewhere else.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:25 PM

71. Wow! nt

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:55 PM

81. I think there were episodes of House and of Law and Order Criminal Intent

involving this controversy

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:19 PM

84. Look at that child's face, and his mother's, and tell me it's not a good thing.

I understand that a community is a community and the preservation of identity is important within it, but the bond between parents and child is the most important thing there is. Hearing parents and a deaf child do have a wonderful bond, as good as with a hearing child unless the parent has a problem with he child's deafness, so I'm not saying that. But the sound of one's mother's voice is a potential life-shaping and joy-inducing thing, and if it's possible for an infant to have it, then...well, watch him.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:21 PM

91. and what an amazing DU community discussion

As a non-hearing impaired person until very recently, and then just mildly, I still have had no idea about the debates and experiences within the deaf community.

I'm glad I don't have to have an opinion because I wouldn't feel qualified to provide one and it'd be worthless anyway.

The baby looks happy and yes it's a heartwarming video to watch. Equally, I just have to say that the Net is also an amazing technology, enabling me to learn so much from hearing impaired people about their experiences, because I have been completely clueless (and no doubt am continuing to be--I'm probably using all of the wrong language.) And people from that community here are able to describe that to people here who aren't in that community, and how would that have happened, this easily, without the net?

This thread is a metaphorical Cochlear implant, in terms of opening up communication, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm squealing like a baby. I love DU!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:21 PM

92. This one is great too...

http://m.&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Do_M28C-U9G0



The priceless reaction is at around 00:30

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:57 PM

97. If I had the money...I would love to hear out of my right ear again.

hearing aids have seriously weakened my "good" left ear. I can't tell which diretionnoise comes from...
Sometimes I will hear an audible "click" in my right ear and actually hear the clearest, most beautiful SOUND! then it just stops and I hear nothing.

This baby has been given the greatest gift!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:38 PM

100. This might be a good time for this brilliant take on 'disability'...

Many of us think we are not one of "them", however, most of us mortals (not you Earl G, Skinner or elad) are really
just TABs: temporarily able bodied.

We could all sometimes use a booster of empathy

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:39 PM

101. All I can say is these are the moments that....

tears, joy, and laughter are made for. How beautiful are these videos, makes you have faith and rejoice in science and God. Amazing! Blessings to them all, the first one with the baby was great. Thank all of you for sharing these delightful moments with us.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:06 PM

102. Priceless!!!!

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:28 PM

103. I find it an awesome use of technology....

yes I know the pros & cons.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:23 AM

115. That's just beautiful...

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:25 AM

116. Here's the documentary from 2001.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/soundandfury/

And they made another film for six years later..

I am withholding my opinion at this time because I have not seen the second film.

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