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Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:21 PM

Dad's 'I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed' email to adult kids goes viral

CNN) -- They're calling it the "Crews missile."

Fired from the keyboard of 67-year-old Nick Crews, the missive blew the lid off his dysfunctional family.

In an e-mail titled "Dear All Three," published in U.K. newspaper The Telegraph, Crews excoriates his three grown children for their professional and personal failures and for the "bitter disappointment each of you has in your own way dished out" to him and his wife.

Crews, a retired British naval officer, was fed up with his children's unsuccessful marriages and inability to earn a living that, as he said, measures up to their potential.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/30/living/telegraph-nick-crews-email/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

'I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed': retired naval officer's email to children in full
This is the full email that retired Royal Navy officer Nick Crews sent to his son and two daughters in February expressing his and his wife's disappointment in them.

------------------

Dear All Three

With last evening's crop of whinges and tidings of more rotten news for which you seem to treat your mother like a cess-pit, I feel it is time to come off my perch.

It is obvious that none of you has the faintest notion of the bitter disappointment each of you has in your own way dished out to us. We are seeing the miserable death throes of the fourth of your collective marriages at the same time we see the advent of a fifth.

We are constantly regaled with chapter and verse of the happy, successful lives of the families of our friends and relatives and being asked of news of our own children and grandchildren. I wonder if you realise how we feel — we have nothing to say which reflects any credit on you or us. We don't ask for your sympathy or understanding — Mum and I have been used to taking our own misfortunes on the chin, and making our own effort to bash our little paths through life without being a burden to others. Having done our best — probably misguidedly — to provide for our children, we naturally hoped to see them in turn take up their own banners and provide happy and stable homes for their own children.

(snip)

I can now tell you that I for one, and I sense Mum feels the same, have had enough of being forced to live through the never-ending bad dream of our children's underachievement and domestic ineptitudes. I want to hear no more from any of you until, if you feel inclined, you have a success or an achievement or a REALISTIC plan for the support and happiness of your children to tell me about. I don't want to see your mother burdened any more with your miserable woes — it's not as if any of the advice she strives to give you has ever been listened to with good grace — far less acted upon. So I ask you to spare her further unhappiness. If you think I have been unfair in what I have said, by all means try to persuade me to change my mind. But you won't do it by simply whingeing and saying you don't like it. You'll have to come up with meaty reasons to demolish my points and build a case for yourself. If that isn't possible, or you simply can't be bothered, then I rest my case.

I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed.

Dad

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9686219/I-am-bitterly-bitterly-disappointed-retired-naval-officers-email-to-children-in-full.html

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Reply Dad's 'I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed' email to adult kids goes viral (Original post)
Liberal_in_LA Nov 2012 OP
wickerwoman Nov 2012 #1
Cleita Nov 2012 #2
laundry_queen Nov 2012 #56
Darth_Kitten Dec 2012 #204
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #217
yeswehavenobananas Dec 2012 #172
DirkGently Dec 2012 #174
Quantess Dec 2012 #222
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #227
Quantess Dec 2012 #232
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #235
DirkGently Dec 2012 #239
seabeyond Nov 2012 #3
JustAnotherGen Nov 2012 #5
seabeyond Nov 2012 #7
lapislzi Nov 2012 #19
seabeyond Nov 2012 #31
lapislzi Dec 2012 #142
seabeyond Dec 2012 #146
Lightbulb_on Nov 2012 #69
yeswehavenobananas Dec 2012 #173
NJCher Dec 2012 #184
dkf Dec 2012 #211
pnwmom Dec 2012 #178
Darth_Kitten Dec 2012 #208
yardwork Dec 2012 #191
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #41
seabeyond Nov 2012 #44
JustAnotherGen Dec 2012 #175
Darth_Kitten Dec 2012 #207
wickerwoman Nov 2012 #11
Habibi Nov 2012 #29
seabeyond Nov 2012 #37
laundry_queen Nov 2012 #59
seabeyond Nov 2012 #62
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pnwmom Nov 2012 #104
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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:29 PM

1. Wow, can't imagine why this guy's kids

grew up to be whiners who don't ask his advice.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:29 PM

2. I hope him and mum aren't too disappointed when they find out their

kids don't want to have anything to do with them from now on.

In this country, my husband and I in our travels, met many aged couples whose children refused to have anything to do with them and they couldn't understand why. Yet, when you asked them what their kids were like, all you heard was a string of complaints about how they had been a disappointment. No doubt the kids heard about it endlessly too, to the point that they decided they didn't need that kind of negativity in their lives.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:49 PM

56. +1

That's exactly right.

I actually belong to a board for adults who are now dealing with abuse suffered in childhood. Often times it's subtle, constant emotional abuse and the child (now adult) often breaks contact because of some last straw. Usually it's the parent blaming the child for something yet again or the parent refusing to take responsibility for something they've done that wasn't so nice and it's a pattern. The parents often tell everyone their sob story about their 'ungrateful' children, leaving out the part where there has been dysfunction and abuse and that the kids have put up with more than enough already.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:04 AM

204. There are also children who are professional victims.

It works both ways. How about parents who are open and try to have a relationship with their kids but the kids are somehow encouraged to blame their parents whenever life doesn't go to plan?




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Response to Darth_Kitten (Reply #204)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:37 AM

217. You know

I hear about those mythical horrible children-creatures who are encouraged (where can you tell me is this 'encouragement' coming from?) to blame their parents, but I haven't run into any yet. I HAVE run into kids who were emotionally abused by their parents and whose parents have made their lives a living hell.

Professional victims - I know that term came from somewhere...I...just...can't...place....it.....

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Response to Cleita (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:22 PM

172. Yes, I believe that. However, there is also the possibility

 

that Mumsy and Dada spoiled the children (doesn't he mention money borrowed?) and realized way too late that they had made their children dependent. And when they put their foot down, the kids got pissed. I mean, how did this email go viral in the first place? Sounds like the kids took revenge to make them look bad.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:37 PM

174. Everyone who has ever used the word "whinging" / "whingeing" in writing is an asshole.


It's something smug judgmental dicks say. Why not just put on a hat that says "smug, judgmental dick" and call it a day?

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #174)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:27 AM

222. Is whinging / whingeing even a word?

How is it pronounced? When people write that, do they actually mean "whining"?

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #227)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:04 AM

232. Aha. Thanks.

Different pronunciation, too.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #232)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:06 AM

235. Yep. Prounounced differently because

it's a different word.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #227)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:52 PM

239. Yeah. More a-holish when laid down by Yanks, of course.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:30 PM

3. i am going to get pummeled. i like the letter. i hear him

i have a fucked up brother that over 50 is still taking hand outs from my father to such an extent he has gone thru his retirement money. and still, he is without a job and my father is giving him money. in four months, my father looses our house payment, then what? or do we keep paying even though we are done and owe no more, really paying my brothers way.

my parents, who did such a kick as job watched brother and his wife fuck up their three kids lives from day one.

i get the letter.

he is at least allowing them the chance to put forth a reasoned argument.

and he is saying, no more. grow up, or no more. dont bring the garbage here.

i would start coming up with fun stories to tell mom and dad.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:34 PM

5. +1

Move over - I'm sticking my ass right out next to yours. I'll take the beating!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:35 PM

7. my kids have a very clear vision of where the line is and expectation.

how about yours? my brother taught me well.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:52 PM

19. Kids are not here to live up to their parents' expectations.

I think that in the main, if you raise them properly, most grow up just fine.

I don't lay a bunch of expectations on my kid, other than, get through college, support yourself, and use your common sense, which I did my level best to impart.

If the above doesn't work out, then I'm not going to throw it in her face. If she wants my help, I'll do what I can. If not...she's an adult, she's on her own. But her ADULT life is not about living up to MY expectations. I'll take what comes, knowing I have little to be ashamed of in the parenting department.

If your dad, seabeyond, is supporting your ne'er do well brother, that's his choice and, it could be argued, bad judgment. They're both adults.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:08 PM

31. get through college, support yourself, and use your common sense,

bah hahaha. those would be expectations. and pretty huge, encompassing ones at that. that is all i expect from mine. oh, and respect self and others. HUGE, expectation.

actually, the college thing is their choice. the do, or dont

and my father is old. he has a fixed income. it becomes my problem when we have to use my kids college fund, or our retirement to pay my fathers way. so ya, it matters.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:29 AM

142. Huge? You think so?

It seems so second nature to me. I managed it even coming out of a dysfunctional family. And, she's in college, so I expect her to stay the course or embark on a reasonable alternative, so long as my money is involved. And the involvement of my money is my prerogative. I can pull that at any time.

Yes, I forgot about respect for self and others. But if you're doing your job as a parent, these things usually self resolve.

I did not mean to sound callous about your father's situation, and I would never presume to tell you what to do. One of the benefits of being an only child (me) is that I never had that to worry about.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #142)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:19 AM

146. you are funny....

my thought, not every one is as good as you, lol. sigh... more than anything i wish i had finished college. and i tried twice. and i couldnt do it. academics was easy. it was being around so many people. ah well.

but see, those expectations is just second nature to you. and that is how they make the best expectations. cause, it is simply expected. t hat is when it gets done, lol.

and i get you do not know the circumstance. it is all good. it is what it is.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:06 PM

69. There are minimum expectations that every parent has...

 

... and frankly that they should have.

Among these are that their children don't grow up to be losers, as appears to be the case here.

As long as the father is realistic about what could come as a result of this letter, then I fully support him.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:23 PM

173. Who in bloody hell are you or anyone else to decide

 

what a "loser" or a "winner' is?

In any case, I suspect that the parents spoiled their kids and realized too late the monsters they had created.

I do despise his line about not having anything to credit themselves with. Children are too often an extension of the parents' egos. I have a feeling that the father feels like he failed his children and is taking it out on them instead of looking in the mirror.

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Response to yeswehavenobananas (Reply #173)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:25 PM

184. try reading the letter

Who in bloody hell are you or anyone else to decide what a "loser" or a "winner' is?

It might clue you in.

Or maybe you think it's OK to make decisions in life that are "copulation based."

Quote:

...so many of these events are copulation-driven, and then helplessly to see these lovely little people being so woefully let down by you, their parents.


Cher

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Response to NJCher (Reply #184)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:33 AM

211. Yes the OP left out the best parts of the letter...

 

Without the impact on the kids, pops wouldn't be so upset.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:05 PM

178. The children aren't the losers, the father is.

The children are all employed and have never been dependent on the father or on the state. The father just doesn't think they have fancy enough jobs to brag about. One of them, for example, works for a taxi service. Another is a mother of two toddlers, a 12 year old, and is married to a surgeon -- and she's been translating a book that's about to be published and has a small translating business.

Do you still fully support this father? Or do you think the children are better off now that he's cut the ties?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #178)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:22 AM

208. That's what he considers a failed family?

Wow.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:32 PM

191. What evidence do you have that the children are losers?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:27 PM

41. My daughter ...

,also, has a clear vision ... her Uncle taught her well. She has watched, as he has take the wrong path at just about every decision he has come to. Fortunately, she has a good comparator in her parents.

It's not that we have made all the right decisions, but she has seen how we survive, and work to correct, those bad ones we've made.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #41)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:29 PM

44. we have basically the same situation.

all my kids life, it has been an example of how to trip up in life.

again... love him dearly, unconditional. he is who he is.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:50 PM

175. For you and seabeyond

I had extremely high expectations placed on me . . . And I don't think that's a bad thing. I guess because of my background there was an expectation that because YOU have been privileged then YOU have to excel. You have to stand up straight and fly right.

And well - there are people in America just waiting around for black women to fall - and it's not just Republicans.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:14 AM

207. I'll raise you my sister.

Doesn't take the handouts (there are none), but.....communication from her seems to be that whenever she's bitterly unhappy about life she calls up my mother and verbally berates her to the extent people on the other side of the house (albeit a small house) can overhear.

I noticed when she married her 2nd husband she suddenly started becoming a Victim. Sometimes you don't hear from her in a long time and then she calls up. Occasionally she is even civil, believe it or not, but how fair is it to have to put up with her changing moods? She can fool her kids and a few close friends, but she doesn't fool us.




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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:41 PM

11. It's all about the context.

Yes it's reasonable if they were great parents, to expect their kids to either keep their negativity to themselves or to buckle down and work harder at careers and relationships.

But reading the letter, they come across as narcissists, not great parents. It's not "I'm sorry you went through that painful divorce" or even "Thank God you've finally had the sense to leave that abusive asshole", it's "How dare you leave me with nothing positive I can brag to my friends about" and "Why didn't you ask me and listen to my advice. I know everything."

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:05 PM

29. Absolutely. NT

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:21 PM

37. i really did not hear narcissist. but, i can totally get how people would hear it. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:53 PM

59. Narcissistic parents are sly creatures

Ask me all about it. I have 2 of them. The letter is consistent with how narcissistic parents act. They are apt to 'look good' on the outside and even seem reasonable to their audience, but for the children it's like death by a thousand pin pricks - subtle, crazymaking pin pricks.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:57 PM

62. i hadnt looked at it from that point.

you may have a point. AND, i remember your story. we have talked about it. you would hear it easily.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #62)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:05 PM

67. It does kind of scream it out, to me

I'm flattered and humbled that you remember my story. I feel for the kids of this man. I'm a 'disappointment' to my parents as well, since I'm divorcing (he left me) and have 4 kids (they think that's too many). They aren't as public as this guy though - they only whisper it behind my back and couch it in acceptable terms, "poor laundry_queen, we've had to do so much to get her back on her feet and she still is not done school at her age. Tsk Tsk."

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:39 PM

104. laundry_queen, I think it's easier when you've lived with one

to spot another one.

But he's textbook.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:51 PM

109. So true

Narcissists often seem logical and reasonable to others. They are great politicians. They often treat their adult kids like children because that way, they keep control and they can have eternal youth. You can almost hear the desperation in this message--he can't live through any of his children now because they don't measure up, so they have taken away something HE deserved...

Yes I know Narcissism very well--it is so destructive.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #109)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:20 AM

221. I don't think this man

seems logical and reasonable. And who lumps all of their children into one group like this. Each would have strengths and weaknesses the other wouldn't have.

This just seems like a hardline jerk trying to knock what he considers sense into his children in a very public way.

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Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #221)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:43 AM

236. Many people are not seeing him as a jerk

--they are buying his distress, feeling sorry for him, and not questioning the "logic" of his argument. He looks like a concerned parent, when all he really cares about is himself. This can be true even if he's a general "do-gooder" who others respect. Narcissists are very good at covering their selfishness, but they only do things for others that benefit themselves in some way. Think Rethuglicon businessmen.

You'd be surprised at how common it is for people to give guys like this a pass.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:52 PM

110. Me too...both parents are malignant narcissists and probably sociopaths...

The biggest trick that narcissistic parents play is the subtle emotional abuse, as you said--"pinpricks." This is by design, too. Every day you are given subtle reminders that you are not good enough, or displeasing them. And of course, the narcissistic parent is cruel--dangling their acceptance and love like a carrot that can (and will) be yanked away at the slightest hint that you are not behaving EXACTLY as they demand.

Their demands on their children are not about helping their children to be good people. Those demands are about making the parent look good. Their children are props--objects to be discussed at cocktail parties and with colleagues.

And when their children grow up damaged, filled with self loathing because they know they will never meet their parents expectations--these narcissistic parents will turn on you without a thought. If you don't have the job that they can brag about or the cute grandchildren that they can discuss with their other vacuous friends--you are of no use to them. You must still be a prop, even as an adult.

As you probably know laundry queen--these parents are great at scapegoatting and backstabbing their own children. If their children do have problems that are obvious--these types of parents are very quick to jockey for position--labeling the adult child as the problem, the disappointment, the horrible perpetrator of pain and suffering for the adult. In my family, my siblings had problems with alcohol, drugs, eating disorders, depression and even one suicide attempt. All of this was pain from being raised in this toxic soup. But the pain was never acknowledged. These obvious signs of their failures--were annoyances and embarrassments to them. These people can't and won't see the humanity in their own children.

I cut off my malignant narcissistic parents many years ago. I started living the day I cut them off. They are very, very sick and damaged people.

I read this letter from this father--and I hope this is a springboard for these children to get some distance from these dysfunctional parents. Unfortunately, many children of parents like this are so damaged, that they remain connected--still desperately trying to get the love and acceptance that they have desperately needed as children. They're trauma bonded to these narcissists and until they find a good therapist and realize that their parents are flawed and toxic--they'll remain damaged children forever trying to please people who get off on inflicting emotional pain onto their children.

I'm glad his email went viral, demonstrating a bit of hope--that at least one of the children is saying "FU!"

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #110)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:43 PM

123. I agree. And I worry about the oldest daughter, the one who is defending him.

It's often the oldest sibling who will take on the responsibility of trying to please the toxic parents. She's probably also trying to get her younger siblings to forgive him. I see her desperately trying to "heal" this - she's probably played that role all her life. She's married to a surgeon, has three children (two of them babies), has started her own business, and is translating a book. It sounds like she is pretty successful to me - but apparently it's not good enough for mum and dad. Instead of telling them to take a hike she is defending them and beating herself up for not being good enough.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #123)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:22 AM

127. She is probably the narcissist's favorite -- which is not a good position to be in.

He views her as an extension of himself since she is apparently the least objectionable of his children, and she probably views herself that way, too. Very sad.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #123)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:48 AM

228. An abused child will often defend her abuser.

And I'd guess that there's been years of abuse dished out by this man(and possibly his wife, although we have no real picture of her role in creating this family dynamic).

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #110)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:07 AM

129. Excellent description of the dynamic. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:38 PM

103. Anyone who is more worried about bragging rights than about how his

children are really doing is showing strong signs of narcissism.

All three adult children are employed and none of them have required financial assistance from him or the state. And yet he wants to cut off communications with them unless they give him more to brag about.

(And I just read that the older daughter has three kids, is married to a surgeon, is translating a book that's about to be published, and started a small business.)

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #103)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:40 PM

122. I agree. He sounds like a jerk.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #103)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:43 AM

143. Exactly

He was griping about the fact that other people have 'paragons' for children and he doesn't. It was all about him and his feelings of inadequacy at these dinner parties.

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:40 PM

51. I was struck by the chilling absence of empathy but had marked it up to a "UK thing". Now

 

that I read your response, I see that I am not alone.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #51)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:41 PM

105. It's all about HIM and how HE appears to his friends --

not about loving his kids and caring for them.

And he probably doesn't like it that his wife cares about them, because he wants her attention all to himself.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #105)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:50 AM

229. perhaps he blames his kids, in some way, for his being unable to rise farther in the Royal Navy.

Or he can't forgive them for not joining up as well.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #229)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:24 AM

238. You might be onto something. Somewhere I read him complaining about

the fact that he could have had a different life, that he stayed in the Navy only to be able to afford the private school tuition payments.

It is typical of a narcissist to blame his perceived failures on anyone handy.

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:02 PM

177. You nailed it.

Just the fact of the letter being written was enough to raise a red flag for me but the contents certainly speak more for the parents than the children. Anyone who compares their lives to others, especially in terms of achievements that seem to be only attained for superficial reasons, doesn't have much room to throw stones. I don't have children but I sometimes find myself disappointed with the friends I have in my life. I immediately chastise myself and recognize that these are people who are in my life because I chose them as friends and allow them to be in my life. If there's a problem, it's with me and not them. I think these parents should so some self-reflection and figure out how they contributed to their own disappointments.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:46 PM

15. I do too and congratulate him. He sounds like a good parent who has just had it...n/t

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:59 PM

65. He sounds like he has had it,

But he doesn't sound like a good parent. That is not an example of 'tough love'. The entire letter was about him, know wonder his children and he don't mesh well.

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:10 PM

180. Good parent? He admits he never took any interest in his kids' lives

once they went to boarding school. Now he only cares about them insofar as they furnish material for bragging about to his friends. What a great father!

His problem, IMHO, is that he is a grandiose narcissist who is jealous of the attention his children get from his wife, who is meant to be his and his alone. There's nothing wrong with the kids -- they're all self-supporting and never needed money from him or the state. One of them has two toddlers, an older child, is married to a surgeon and is about to publish a book she translated -- and has a small translating business. But she just isn't special enough, apparently, to compete with the children of his friends.

What a jerk. The offspring are better off without him.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:05 PM

28. One easy thing to do is don't give him the money.

Once they are adults your father has no obligation. My parents had another way. They would lend me the money I needed with a small interest rate and they made me sign a note to that effect with their bank that acted like an agent. Even though I might have gotten away with not paying the parents, I did have to pay the bank or get my credit trashed, wages garnished or worse.

Other than that your parents really have no business telling your brother how to live. Actually, it would be better if you and your other siblings, if you have them, criticize your brother about how he's raising your nieces and nephews. It carries more weight I have noticed when the aunts and uncles step in rather than the grandparents. I know it's very hard to sit back and do nothing, but sometimes that's unfortunately the injustice of the world.

Since I never had these problems, take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. I'm just speaking from observing friends, neighbors and coworkers going through these problems over the years.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:25 PM

39. now we are getting into story time. i cut my brother off years ago, money wise. always unconditional

love

he says can i borrow. but, we understand it is give me, and not going to be mentioned and brought up again. you give money, understand it is a gift.

three decades.

dont know why he is like this and my other brother and i are not. it is all of who he is.

kids... meh, does no good to say anything. alcoholics. we are always there for them though. and spend the time with them, love them.

that is the best we can do. accept him for who he is. cause he isnt going to change. that expectation went away about a decade ago, lol.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:14 PM

75. LOL ...

he says can i borrow. but, we understand it is give me, and not going to be mentioned and brought up again. you give money, understand it is a gift.


That conjures up two memories ...

The first occurred when I was about 11 years old. I asked my Dad to borrow $5.00 to purchase something or another. He said "Sure" and handed me the money. And off to the store I went.

About two weeks later, he took me to the store to buy a baseball glove ... I had been saving for it for months and baseball try-outs were about a week away. I spent about an hour trying out all the gloves ... I had to have just the right one. When I finally found it, I was really excited. As we walked to the check-out counter, I was chattering about the glove and how I was going to break it in just right.

When the cashier ran up the sale, it came to about $1.50 more than I had saved ... I forgot about the tax. But it was okay, my dad waas standing right next to me. I handed the cashier all the money I had, then turned to my father ... "Dad, can I borrow $1.50?" Imagine my horror when he looked me in the eye and said, "Nope, you still owe me $5.00." He went on to say, "Son, when say 'borrow' that means you get no more until you've paid back what you borrowed. If you had said, 'Can I have?', then I don't expect to get paid back."

So I had to put back the perfect glove and pick out a cheaper one. I didn't speak to my Dad all the way home; but it was a lesson, I never forgot.

The second memory involved my Brother-in-Law. I like him a lot; but as I mentioned above, he makes really bad decisions.

Well, my wife (having grown up very, very poor; but having made good for herself) had take to cutting her brother in on any lump sum money that she got ... Income tax refund, give her brother a couple hundred dollars; a big win at the casino, break her brother off some. In any given year, we'd give him a couple grand (and this went on for years); but I really didn't have a problem with this because I liked him and we were doing okay.

Well, in the course of one week, my car was totaled when BabyGirl 1StrongBlackMan decided that the garage door didn't really need to be open for her to park the car in the garage AND a tree limb blew down, destroying our parameter wall AND our main water line failed, underground, in the middle of the front yard. As you could imagine ... $6,000 in unplanned for insurance deductibles and plumbing cost, put a major crimp in our budget.

One afternoon, we ran into my Brother-in-law in a bar ... He was in there spending like a millionaire, buying round after round. So my wife whispered to him, asking to borrow $50.00 to get us to pay day. Her brother reached into his pocket and pulled out a knot that would choke a bear ... as he flipped past hundreds, to get to the smaller bills, he looked my wife in the eye and asked, "when you gonna pay me back?" Then, to make matters worse, he said, "What you're gonna need to do is follow me to {someone's) house. He owes me $50.00, I'll give you that."

My wife's mouth fell open and I just said, "Naw ... That's alright ... We're cool; we'll make do."

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #75)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:52 PM

90. wow. my brother will give the shirt off my back to any friend. he is generous like that.

lmao. very generous. i think that is why he expects it from us. if he has money, he gives it away.

i liked your first story.

i have been able to do that with two of his kids. they are trying hard. i tell them, i will be your bank, as long as you pay back. first time you do not, i stop.

i am very lenient on the time and struggle to pay back.

interesting.

did your wife stop giving him chuncks of money?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #90)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:23 AM

139. Nope ...

She still gives him money whenever she thinks he's broke ... which is all the time.; but that's a fight, I'm not willing to fight.

Her response was her promising to me that she would never again ask him to borrow a dime ... My response to her response, "Yeah, that'll teach him!"

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:51 PM

188. your dad sounds like a cool guy

I loved the baseball glove story.

Just a guess, but I'll bet it was very difficult for him to do that--would bet anything that he wanted you to have the better baseball glove.

Your pops was a gem. He put off his gratification--and yours--so you could learn a lesson.


Cher

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Response to NJCher (Reply #188)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:38 AM

199. Yep ...

Dad (RIP) was a gem. He taught me daily life lessons and only lectured me once that I can remember.

I came home from a party, clearly under the influence of the weed ... he looked and me and quietly said, "you know what ... Those of us that smoked dope when we were young never amounted to much of anything", then he turned and walked away.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:27 PM

40. You like the letter? You like a jerk because he's complaining that his three EMPLOYED,

substance-free kids aren't working in fancy jobs that he can brag about to his friends?

According to the daughter who made the letter public (and who has reconciled with him), none of them have been getting any financial help from their parents. It is only by his definition that their lives aren't good enough for him.

What an ass.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #40)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:31 PM

47. none of that was in article i read, made assumptions IF. if they are fine kids... than he is an ass.

as i said, i am dealing with the same in my home. and i would like to see my father able to do that. but, he cant.

i went off what was in the letter.... and told my view without any back ground.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:09 PM

70. It was a link from the linked article

About the three kids (adults): "Today she works in a sailing shop in Plymouth; Fred, married for the second time (he has just become a father for the second time) works for a taxi firm in the city; and Emily is struggling as a business interpreter."

And the dad's comments:
“It upsets me that they occupy basic-wage positions instead of working at the upper periphery of their capability. I would be mortified if they were to need — either immediately or in later life — state benefits. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9699955/I-havent-done-well-as-a-father-have-I-Softer-side-of-the-man-who-fired-off-Crews-missile.html

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:33 PM

80. Yep, it is all about how the have "shamed"

their father by not being wealthy and successful by his criteria.

What a dick!

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:44 PM

89. okay, the man is a jackass dad.

a climber. a nose up in the air arse.

if his kids are not measuring up to his snot snobbery, good for them.

Dad needs a attitude adjustment. I sure wouldn't want to have anything to do with a snob like that.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:43 PM

106. Emily, the "struggling" interpreter, has 2 toddlers, a 12 year old, and is married to a surgeon.

Most people I know wouldn't be ashamed of a daughter in her situation.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:15 AM

133. God, what a dick. As he collects his state pension.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:09 PM

71. I hear you, seabeyond

Each of my daughters has dropped out of 5 colleges, and left us with tens of thousands of dollars in student loans. Neither one has a degree, though one is 2 credits short of a BA and the other 3 credits short of an AA.

Neither one works at the moment, though the older one at least does work most of the time. The younger one hasn't worked in years and has a number of other issues I won't get into. Both live with us. Neither one has ever contributed a dime toward their student loans.

I tried my best to raise them well and set limits, rules, etc. Unfortunately my husband is a classic enabler who let them do whatever they wanted, and yelled at me if I raised my voice to them. Now he realizes the damage this has done, but it's too late.

I would give anything to see them finish their degrees. What I wouldn't give to attend someone's graduation. Get decent jobs. Pay their own way in life. (The older one does, except for the loans) Move out. I stopped writing Christmas letters to family and friends because I'm so ashamed and disappointed in my daughters.



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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:25 PM

77. With you as well.

It is highly possible to have been a wonderful parent and still have whiny kids who grow into whiny adults. I also get the letter.

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Response to Sukie (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:01 PM

176. I get the letter. It's from a narcissistic parent to adult children who merely

aren't fantastic enough to suit him.

It's not from a parent whose adult children are malingerers or slackers.

It's from a man who's complaining about his three adult children who are all employed and have never needed financial help from him or the state. One of his daughters has three children (2 toddlers), is married to a surgeon, and has been translating a book that's about to be published. Do you "get" why he would have sent that nasty letter to her?

It certainly is possible for a good parent to produce children with problems. But in that particular family, the father appears to be the main problem.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #176)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:06 PM

189. excuse me?

Did you or did you not see that the reason the father is expressing these concerns is for his grandchildren!?

I think you're reading your own situation into this letter and you are ignoring what few facts we have.


Cher

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Response to NJCher (Reply #189)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:15 PM

190. Did you or did you not see that the reason the father is expressing these concerns

is because he doesn't have anything to brag to his friends about?

"We are constantly regaled with chapter and verse of the happy, successful lives of the families of our friends and relatives and being asked of news of our own children and grandchildren. I wonder if you realise how we feel — we have nothing to say which reflects any credit on you or us."

Why should he be worried about the children of his oldest daughter, the one whose husband is a surgeon? Why did he send that letter to her?

He can pretend he's most worried about the grandchildren -- they're still young and cute enough that he likes them. But this is the father who admits to ignoring his children once they went to boarding school (which in England often starts at age 8). Sooner or later he won't like the grandchildren, either.

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Response to NJCher (Reply #189)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:34 PM

192. What facts do you have that the grandchidren are in danger?

As far as I've read, all three adult children are employed. The oldest daughter is married to a surgeon. I have not been able to find any evidence that the grandchildren are being neglected in any way.

What facts have you found?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:31 PM

78. Would love to hear the kids' side of the story

after all, Dad is "whinging" about how he has nothing to brag about to his friends.

His kids may be abject failures, but he is no prize. Also, success is not just measured by having a job and staying married. I have seen many miserable people who wouldn't leave a bad job or a bad spouse for a variety of bogus reasons.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #78)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:34 PM

101. They are not abject failures. They are all employed and none has ever received assistance

from the state or from the parents.

And his oldest daughter has three children, is married to a surgeon, is translating a book that's about to be published, and started up a small business.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #101)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:10 AM

237. OK

the father is a dick.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:53 PM

111. I think he's spot on. Too many "adults" acting like children, and are intentionally

sabotaging the lives of their own children.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:03 PM

160. Too many older parents act like 3 yr olds toward their adult children,like Republicans in office now

 

and intentionally sabotage their own adult children's families.

Just because you are old or a parent, doesn't make you wise.

Narcissists are very good at telling their story from their point of view and making others look bad even if they have to make it all up.

Other people naturally believe them because they are rich, confident and appear to have it together....sort of like Rush Limbaugh.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:06 PM

117. Without knowing the specifics, it's impossible to know who is to blame.

But a father who excoriates his children instead of sticking it out with them through thick and thin sounds like he has an inability to communicate well.

My daughters are only 15. But if they turn out badly -which I truly can't see happening- I would blame myself first.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:09 PM

119. No pummeling from me...

because I've been there (am STILL THERE) and done that with three allegedly grown children of my own.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:43 AM

126. I like it, too.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:26 AM

135. I love the letter too. I got my life in order because I realized I must be disappointing my mother

She did not have a good life. Struggled a great deal with me as a single mother before she met my step-dad (daddy) and he helped her until he passed away. Now she's back on that road. But now she's older and I am also an adult. I kept thinking, she paid for my two Bachelor's and my Masters degree. This woman put me through catholic schooling and for year after year---even if I accomplished those degrees I have put off passing into adulthood. I.E. I had yet to forge my own career and create my own life. When I finally did that, now I am a full time teacher and I'm able to pay her rent and helped her out a great deal.

But none of that happened until I reflected on ways that I was disappointing her and seeing how she worked super hard for me. I have to do that for her. I don't blame the man in this letter and I think if his kids are serious they will see where he's coming from. My mother stated to me she was disappointed but it wasn't until I got my life in order did she say she was...I think there's a bit of that for every parent when they see their kids not taking life by the horns and making the best of their lot in it.

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Response to vaberella (Reply #135)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:18 AM

138. i love your post

and it is good seeing you....

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #138)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:43 PM

219. Hiya seabeyond.

Thanks for the appreciation and it is nice seeing you too.

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Response to vaberella (Reply #135)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:26 AM

149. How do you know that he's telling the truth about his children?

See my posts downthread for explanation.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #149)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:27 PM

166. people see things from their own perspective- they naturally assume that people wouldn't lie

 


Lies travel halfway around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on....so it is very difficult for more quiet honest types to disprove this absurd negative.

Takes years and years and they still won't admit they are wrong...kinda like the Republican party nationally....

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:33 PM

215. I agree with you, seabeyond

while there are always two sides to every story and we are hearing the Dad's only, the bottom line is there are many entitled young/younger people out there.

My parents worked hard and provided every opportunity for us; yet in our family, we have fuck-ups among us still with hands out and still blaming everyone else. Two friends have given their children stable homes and paid for educations. What do they have to show for it: zip, nada, zilch. Two still dependent ne'er do wells.

As a parent of a successful son (fortunately), I count my blessings, but feel their pain.


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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:32 PM

4. What an ass.

How does he suppose his children became that way? Did they grow to adulthood in a vacuum? Surely with such a strong, positive role model, they should be pillars of their community.

Yeesh, I abhor sanctimony.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:28 PM

43. His children are all employed, self-supporting, and drug free. His problem is that he's

a narcissist who doesn't have enough to brag about to his friends -- they're not doctors, lawyers, or vulture capitalists.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:42 AM

137. Yeah, when I got to that line of the letter

about his friends talking about their kids, I immediately realized that was his problem. What a hateful creature to say things like that to his own children.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:34 PM

6. Honestly, good for him.

These are all adults we're talking about. He's not happy with the relationship he has with his kids. He understands that he cannot control their behavior, but sets up boundaries for how much it can affect the lives of he and his wife.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:53 PM

21. At one time it was his job to control their behavior

If his children are such failures, he should spend some time with a mirror figuring out how they turned out that way.

Not saying it's 100% his fault, but he had a very large hand in forming these adults.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:04 AM

132. I agree. People can be unconsciously horrible to their parents.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:39 PM

8. Parenting 101:

Love them
Take care of them
Teach them to do for themselves
Launch them into their own lives
Stay OUT of their love-lives
Stay OUT of their finances
Cheerfully accept their mates

BUTT OUT

and

do not EXPECT them to be anything but whomever/whatever they want to be.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:40 PM

9. He's a retired military officer. I wonder if he was around to raise his kids?

I have no problem with the military but since he's retired Navy I just wonder if he had much opportunity to be around to raise his kids and help teach them the values and way to live life that would make him proud. Or, was he out at sea for most of their formative years?

It makes a difference to me which way things were in whether or not he has much of a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing them.

Again I'm not criticizing him for being in the Navy or even if he was out at sea for most of their formative years. Just wondering about the situation.

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Response to dballance (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:52 PM

18. Probably not, but his e-mail is mostly about the mother and not to bring her

down any longer.

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Response to WI_DEM (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:30 PM

46. Anyone who lives with him would have to be depressed.

Narcissists -- the kind of person who would complain that his employed, self-supporting, drug-free children don't give him enough to brag about -- are hell to live with.

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Response to dballance (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:24 PM

38. What about all the other fathers/mothers who work 60 plus hours to keep the family in a home?

What about the parents who have to travel for a few days, or more for work every month or so.. It's not just the military...

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Response to midnight (Reply #38)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:10 PM

72. Military tend to fall into a different category...

 

We don't just step out for 60 hours or a few days.

It stretches into months or even years...

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #72)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:20 PM

120. Or they never come home... I know..

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Response to midnight (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:23 PM

183. Good Point. /eom

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Response to dballance (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:46 PM

193. I hope he never needs a caregiver when he's elderly

He may find he's shipped off to an old folks home and never has visitors. The economy is tough. He should be glad his kids are employed and not asking him for money.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:40 PM

10. It never occurs to this jerk that his friends are telling him what they want him to hear

We are constantly regaled with chapter and verse of the happy, successful lives of the families of our friends and relatives and being asked of news of our own children and grandchildren.


Gee, you think maybe some people are sugar coating the goings on of their own families in order to avoid embarrassment?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:41 PM

52. Or they don't like him

and are rubbing it in.

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Response to Habibi (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:19 PM

162. or maybe they are kind to their children and look for the good in them

 

not miserable people looking for someone to blame for their own unhappiness

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:41 PM

12. I sympathize with him also,

he doesn't sound unreasonable to me and if they aren't doing what they should be I can see how that would upset him. Especially if they are dumping on their mother, who knows what issues the parents may be dealing with. Doesn't look like the kids are offering them any moral support.

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Response to Worried senior (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:49 PM

84. How are they not doing what "they should be"???

They all have jobs and are self-supporting. Adults have NO duty to live the life their parents want them to. It is imo pathetic if an adult did so.

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Response to Worried senior (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:53 PM

112. His oldest has 2 toddlers, a 12 year old, a husband who is a surgeon,

and she's translating a book that's about to be published and has a small business.

The other two are both employed and have never relied on financial assistance either from him or the government.

Are you sure he doesn't sound unreasonable?

I think, as a narcissist, he's probably irked that he doesn't have his wife's full and undivided concern -- she loves the kids, too.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:43 PM

13. Look in the mirror pops and look inside yourself, the reason

to why your kids are disappointments are closer than you think.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:44 PM

14. he sounds like an ass

and apparently he wasn't any great shakes as a parent.
Really if all of your children are having problems, you need to look for the common denominator...which is their parents.
Yes, one child can struggle because of things outside of your influence, but all 3 of them.
Look in a mirror old man.

The daughter who is excusing her old man says...

She admitted spending “many years underperforming”, partly because her father’s uncompromising stance left her with little self-confidence.

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:52 PM

20. "left her with little self-confidence" = indeed. a steady diet of criticism & nothing being good

 

enough will do that. kids need the experience of succeeding & meeting expectations as well as the experience of missing the mark and missing being OK, a platform for reanalyzing how to do better rather than hearing what a fuck-up one is.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:11 PM

73. Tell it, HPD...The damage lasts a lifetime.

Decades of destructive, fear-based reinforcement definitely leave their mark, years of reparative therapy notwithstanding.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #73)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:22 PM

163. no amount of psychology, no amount of self reflection can fix this- I am damaged goods

 

I can only hope to not pass it on to my children.

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:55 PM

22. He is an ass. He was an absentee father who shipped his kids off to boarding school and didn't

communicate with them regularly. He's pissed off that they don't have high wage jobs about which he can brag to his friends.

Here's a link to another article about him:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9699955/I-havent-done-well-as-a-father-have-I-Softer-side-of-the-man-who-fired-off-Crews-missile.html

Here's an excerpt:

“I regret that when they were at boarding school I didn’t write to them regularly. That, plus the fact that I would be away at sea eight to 10 weeks at a stretch, made it difficult for me to catch up with them.

"I remember once my mother asking me what Emily — who was at Exeter University at the time — was up to. I said I hadn’t a clue. ‘What a way to run a family!’ she said.” His late mother’s words have haunted him since.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:35 PM

87. +1

He's an ass.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:40 AM

202. What shocks me is that it appears from the article that many poeple in the UK

approve of this letter and are on his side. I suppose that just highlights our cultural differences when it comes to family and child rearing. I find his attitude repulsive.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #202)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:07 AM

205. There are many people here on DU who approve of the letter as well.

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:04 PM

66. If all of his children are such a "disappointment", perhaps

there is a "beam" in his own eye rather than a "mote" in theirs.

His judgmental, condescending attitude must be really hard to swallow in a more intimate setting.

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:38 PM

121. I agree. The oldest one defends him, but notes that he destroyed her self-confidence.

We are given no evidence that his grown children are doing anything wrong. The oldest daughter sounds like she has a very successful life. All we have is the man's statement that he is disappointed in them. For what? No evidence that they have caused him any trouble.

I find it very troubling.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:49 PM

16. did he release the e-mail, too? how did it get public?

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Response to WI_DEM (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:56 PM

23. daughter released it

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Response to WI_DEM (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:04 PM

27. His daughter released it, with his permission. nt

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:50 PM

17. law of physics: apples don't fall from their trees.

 

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:01 PM

25. You may want to add "far from" in there

 

Unless they are magic floating apples...

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:08 PM

32. on my planet, the apples stay on the trees

 

things are more obedient where i come from.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:59 PM

64. Welcome to Earth!

You have apples too? Gotta be some ridiculous coincidence.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:57 PM

24. Mostly my family was poor and when we left home they blessed us and prayed they had given us what

we needed to make it in the world. And we all did...in our own, individual ways. Same as to the second generation...not necessarily from financial positions, but from kicking/waving them out of the nest and being mature parents enough to accept an "advisory when asked" capacity.

My gut level on this tortured man is/they that he never learned to let go...to trust his/their parenting...and tried to make up for it later, which is absolutely impossible...and bitterly unsuccessful.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:02 PM

26. Perhaps...

Mr Crews...it's genetic?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:06 PM

30. he's a real narcissist

but on the other hand, we have no picture of the children. They could truly be struggling, or they could be spoiled brats. There is no way of knowing.

The father is using shaming, however. It doesn't usually work to get the desired behavior. And children do not "owe" their parents good marriages, grandchildren, or success in careers. Children do not "owe" their parents anything. If the parents earn their children's love and respect, that is all they can really expect.

Family counseling would have been a better approach. But he's just pompously writing them off. It's a no-win for the kids--if they shape up in his eyes they feel like children again, but if they don't, then he's done with them.

If this were my Dad, I'd write him off. And maybe that WOULD be better for all. He has never accorded them adulthood because they don't meet his definitions. If they don't want to be treated like children, they need to put some distance between themselves & their parents.

Also you have to factor in the "litter" aspect--if one of the kids does improve and is rewarded, then the others are resentful.

This is a seriously dysfunctional situation. Family counseling.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:32 PM

48. I read elsewhere that they are all employed and self-supporting in middling jobs.

They just haven't been giving him enough to brag about. You're right -- he's practically the definition of a narcissist.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #48)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:55 PM

60. He is from a generation where one armed with a high school diploma

could get a job with reasonable job security, benefits and pension, buy a home, get married, raise a family and retire. His kids generation requires two working parents who even then don't have a secure work situation. Instead of looking down on his kids he should be asking himself what has changed that has made it so difficult for every one of his kids to even come close to achieving the same standard of living. His actions will only alienate his children further and he'll spend no time with the grandchildren he claims to be so concerned about.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #60)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:15 PM

92. good points

Also there is so much competition now--the population of the world was 2.5 billion in the 50's. It's going to hit 7 billion this year.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #60)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:20 PM

93. All that and -- he's a narcissist who's sucking the life out of his kids. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #93)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:20 AM

234. Yes, all that and. Thank you for all of your posts in this thread. So glad to see most DUers aren't

high-fiving this jerk, but especially appreciated you spelling it out so clearly.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #48)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:43 PM

107. Post #34 has a good link to more of the story

--when I read that, I can give these kids the benefit of the doubt.

I submit that the narcissist father really wants to keep them as kids, pushed and pulled by his emotions.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:08 PM

33. Dear All Three?

Any chance this was written by Lee Mercer, Jr?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:11 PM

34. They are all self-supporting--

Just FYI to those who think they were sponging off the parents:



<snip>

Mr Crews says that his daughter Emily, a business interpreter, son Fred, who works in a taxi office, and another daughter who works in a sailing shop, have not lived up to their potential.

He said he was frustrated that they should have fulfilled their capabilities.

'It upsets me that they occupy basic-wage positions instead of working at the upper periphery of their capability.
'I would be mortified if they were to need 0 either immediately or in later life - state benefits.
'I long to see them take responsibility for their actions.'

<snip>


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237665/Nick-Crews-Id-mortified-needed-benefits-Father-frustrated-email-adult-children-went-viral-says-regret-voicing-views.html

Do you still get to pick your parents nursing home in the UK?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:11 PM

35. this guy presents as a classic narcissist

He sees his children as extensions of himself.

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Response to cali (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:43 PM

83. He sure does. He's a textbook case. n/t

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Response to cali (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:34 PM

169. easily recognizable to those of us who grew up with this

 

nt

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:18 PM

36. The English have such a lovely way of making a point... Hopefully this letter curtails the

disappointment that seems to have been having a burdensome feel for the family...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:27 PM

42. There is something to be said for speaking your mind in hopes that someone will benefit.

There is also something to be said for shutting the fuck up, when doing so will cause more harm than good.

The trick is knowing the difference.

Given that (at least) one of the kids saw fit to provide it to the Telegraph, I both suspect he's actually underestimated the the scope of the problem and so should have kept his mouth shut.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:58 PM

113. The one who published the letter has three kids and is married to a surgeon.

She's also about to publish a translation of a book (as part of her translating business) and asked his permission to publish the letter. (Does she sound like a failure to you? Neither of his other children are failures, either, except in his own warped mind.)

Oddly enough -- but maybe not, for a complete narcissist -- he gave her permission to publish the letter.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:30 PM

45. I'm interested to hear what the rest of the family says

Before I decide whether this person has a real case for being so disappointed. Maybe he was a horrendous father himself.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #45)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:35 PM

49. He's pissed off that his kids don't earn a lot of money.

Here's a link to another article about the guy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9699955/I-havent-done-well-as-a-father-have-I-Softer-side-of-the-man-who-fired-off-Crews-missile.html

And an excerpt:

“It upsets me that they occupy basic-wage positions instead of working at the upper periphery of their capability.

"I would be mortified if they were to need — either immediately or in later life — state benefits. They should contribute to, not draw from, the pot. I long to see them take responsibility for their actions.”


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Response to smokey nj (Reply #49)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:39 PM

50. He's doing his best to humiliate them publicly

That tells me he's a very bad parent.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #50)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:44 PM

54. I'm glad he isn't my father.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #50)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:31 PM

79. email was sent privately to kids. 1 kid posted to email, not bitter dad

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #79)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:03 PM

161. So what does that tell you?

That the kid wants everyone to know he's a bad seed? Or that the kid wants to show what the father is?

I'd say it was the latter, because I doubt the kid wants the world to see what a loser he is.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:42 PM

53. What is interesting also, is that apparently the government has paid for his entire life. Pretty

much all that requires is doing what you're told.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:47 PM

55. Yes, it rather disappoints one

When one's children fail to produce a good return on investment. Perhaps it can be written off as bad debt on the tax return.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:51 PM

57. I have news for him:

Children do not come into the world to come up to their parents' expectations.

You need to do the best you can to raise them to be good productive HAPPY citizens, and that's all. The rest is up to them.

His disappointment is waaaaaaay displaced.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:52 PM

58. He should be bitterly, bitterly disappointed.

There is a difference between providing for children and raising them to be adults. I'm going to guess that he did the former but not so much the latter. It is a common adage that upon the children you can see the reflection of the parents.

If I were him, I'd be quite disappointed. Disappointed in my complete failure as a parent. I'm not surprised he's receiving support for this, there are plenty of shitty parents out there going through the same thing who want to be let off the hook for their own failures, and I'm sure this would make them smile.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:56 PM

61. IMHO marriage and children are

Overrated!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:58 PM

63. He sounds like a miserable fucking asshole.

 

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:06 PM

68. Sometimes good people just have lousy kids.

I have seen it, we all have. I once read "The Myth of the Family" by James Hillman, and he wrote about the modern tendancy in our culture to blame our parents for everything.
Can you imagine any adult a hundred years ago, blaming all his failures on his parents? He would be laughed out of the village.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:11 PM

74. Sometimes I know how this man feels. And I am sure my

parents have felt the same way at least a couple times about me.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:15 PM

76. what an asshole

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Response to Kali (Reply #76)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:34 PM

81. LOL! Succinct and to the point. I totally agree.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:38 PM

82. Dad sounds like a cold-blooded bastard

The thing about unconditional love is that it has absolutely NO conditions.

Apparently, the father's conditions for any expressions of love to his children entails a performance level from them that is capable of making him look good to his friends and cronies.

I would hazard a guess that as a deployed Naval officer during much of their formative years, Pops outsourced the raising of his kids to others. Perhaps he should ask for a refund from those English boarding schools that he sent them to.

This letter is a perfect example of people who are suffering from a case of English Gentry Problems.

It's a little less catastrophic when dealing with family issues down here in the lower classes, where the lack of unreasonable expectations prevent us from operating at such a high level of crisis management.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:20 PM

85. +1000

To love unconditionally is to toe a line-- it is a discipline in itself.
Beware of every unrealistic expectation!
Such a family and even institutional dynamic is usually repeated several times and in several areas of life; and it always leads to long-term distress.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:26 PM

86. Uuhhh. This dude needs some help. If ya don't want kids, don't have em.

Don't have em then treat them like disposable diapers.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:39 PM

88. Beginning stages of Alzheimer's disease or some other dementia... poor fellow.

It probably won't get better until he forgets who all the players are.



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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:04 PM

91. a telling quote or two

He blames contemporary culture, which proffers us “a cancerous cocktail where on the one hand everyone is supposed to be free to do whatever they wish, but on the other we all expect protection from the consequences of our actions”.

In short, he is another conservative idiot, the sort that come here to Florida on a fortnight, with the pension they got from their job, and talk about the modern day as if we are all scum.

“We would be on our own at the beach, with no lifeguard, no grown-up to say, ‘Watch out for this undertow’. The great breakers would come towards you, then you would duck and the breaker would go over you and you would bob up again.”He sounds nostalgic for those Swallows and Amazons days. Nowadays, you see those wetsuit-clad surfers riding the waves: nothing spontaneous there. We would go off fishing on our own, and climb the cliffs. And do you think there were any signs there saying ‘Take care’? It was idyllic. And we were free.”

Another one who thinks freedom is associated with lack of government guidance or services. SIGH

And of course, this gem:
He retired in 1998 after 35 years in the Navy and his last command was a ballistic missile-firing nuclear submarine.

So in other words, Mr. Crews, you had a government job, based on cold war fear, picked as one of the people who would nuke Moscow if you were given the order.

NOw, seabeyond, do not get me wrong, I know how there can be parasitic trash in families. I have seen people mooch off my parents ruthlessly, and then attack them. But this man is a fool, and fools like him deserve to die alone.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #91)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:59 AM

203. +1000

Thank you for your excelllent post.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:23 PM

94. If one kid is a screw up....

If one kid is a screw up, then it is probably that kid.

If all of them are, in the parents' eyes, failures, then the parents either have extremely skewed expectations/perceptions or they should look to their own parenting skills for the failure.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #94)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:30 PM

99. One of these failures has 3 kids, is married to a surgeon, is translating a book

that's about to be published, and has a small business.

The father is the problem.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:24 PM

95. commence the Airing of Grievances!


Next up: the Feats of Strength

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Response to 0rganism (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:20 AM

147. Damn!! Beat me to it!!! nt

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:26 PM

96. I hear a version of this from an elderly couple we know, about their children,

although their words are much less harsh and more bewildered. In their case, I think, it is simply a matter of being in a bubble and not realizing how the world has changed for younger people.

They bought their house when it was still possible to raise a family on one income. They paid around 30,000, and it is now valued at around 500,000 in a major metropolitan area. He worked in the same place his entire life, earning regular promotions and a decent salary, and he retired with a generous pension. They sent their children to college. They have adequate money in the bank for retirement and live a very comfortable, though not luxurious, lifestyle.

Their kids were all good students, got into good colleges (although not elite), earned degrees, and waited to have families until they got their first jobs. But they are underwater with graduate school loans. They have repeatedly had jobs disappear beneath them, or salaries downgraded, or benefits cut. Their purchased homes lost rather than gaining value. They struggle to afford medical insurance. In short, they deal with everything the plutocrats have done to this country.

This couple is in their 70's, and they honestly don't understand how things have changed for their children; they cannot fathom that hard workers should struggle so much, unless they are doing something wrong. They were brought up in our culture that associates material struggling with personal failure. They just don't understand.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:29 PM

97. One of these failures, his oldest daughter, has three kids and is married to a surgeon

and has set up a small business and is translating a book which is about to be published.

But apparently she hasn't given him enough to brag about.

He's a textbook narcissist.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9686721/Daughter-defends-former-submarine-captain-who-told-children-he-was-bitterly-disappointed-in-them.html

Mrs Crews-Montes now lives in Brittany with her second husband, a French surgeon, and three children aged 18 months, two, and 12.

She said her father’s email did not upset her because she had already begun to turn her life around when she received it in February. She had set up a business and had started translating a French self-help book into English.

“I had already done what he told me to do. I had already given myself a kick up the backside.” She admitted spending “many years underperforming”, partly because her father’s uncompromising stance left her with little self-confidence.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #97)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:11 AM

206. I understand how it is growing up in a family like this and why it breeds underperformance.

I was rather advanced as a child and therfore always expexted to be absolute perferct and the best at everything. When I got perfect straight A's and blue ribbons for winning sporting events it was considered by my parents to be "living up to my potential". There was never any praise, only criticism and abuse for falling short of the ideal.

Needless to say, this way of parenting did not leave me as a very motivated person. I do fine, my siblings are much more successful but they did not suffer the physical and mental abuse that I did. I have no confidence. I was never encourged or praised, only threatend. Eventually, I just stopped giving a shit.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #206)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:51 PM

216. Me, too, smirkymonkey.

There is a really good book for children of narcissists, called "Children of the Self Absorbed."

It helped me personally, but I was especially glad I read it when I did because I had children. Otherwise, I might have passed to them on some unexamined beliefs that I'd absorbed from my narcissistic parent.

Another good book, especially if you have kids, is "Punished by Rewards," by Alfie Kohn. It talks about why grades an blue ribbons take away from motivation in the long run.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:29 PM

98. In case you wonder why DON Q is emotional about this

I have had college degrees, but I never lived up to my potential. Of course, I had some issues that were undiagnosed at the time, but people could never figure what was wrong with me, especially people like my brother that bragged about flunking out of college, and still making an ungodly salary, how he would fire people like me all the time. I had medical bills that almost lost me parents their house, student loans, and an amount of money made so low that when my mother took me to social security to apply for disability, they showed all the money I ever made in my life, and my Mother genuinely thought it was a misprint.

It helps that I come from a family where people make twice what my father did, and spend four time that, yet some of them still found ways to trick my father into doing things for them. And of course, I had all the "faith and the peter Pan advice" thrown at me, by people who thought I was lazy, or that I needed to go back to church. I will tell you straight out, the only reason I did not cut my fucking wrists is because I used to work in the funeral industry, and I did not want my family taken advantage of as they wasted money on my burial! If killing myself would have given my mother and father the money they deserved, I would have! That is because I felt guilt about how I had failed them!

However, my parents were NOT like this Brit asshole. They knew I was trying, and they knew I was not given a fair shake. Turns out I was diagnosed with a bunch of issues that explained a lot, stuff that was not diagnosed when younger. But what mattered is that my parents were not embarrassed about me, they did not feel disappointed in me..

THEY LOVED ME!

And that,my friends, is what being a parent is all about, and I humbly say, if you cannot do that, do not have kids.. furthermore, before you call someone a LOSER, keep in mind, that person might be under a burden that would crack you into so many shards if it was placed on your shoulders! I realize that for the love of of my family, I might be one of those crazy people under the bridge, and for all I know, I may still be there, but I know that I am loved for what I am, and not some narcissistic wish fulfillment!

Allright,sorry i had to get real there, we will now return to your regularly scheduled Don Quixote, whose main offense is lambasting self righteous hypocritical creeps of all stripes, but being polite when doing so.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:37 PM

102. I have a college degree and I walk dogs for a living. I don't make much money, but I love my job.

Some would consider me a failure, I don't.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:02 PM

115. You've nailed this guy. The only person he can love is himself.

And I think he wrote this letter because he's jealous -- his wife was paying more attention to the kids than to him.

And no wonder!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:34 PM

100. The daughter says a lot of stuff their father said in the e-mail was true

"Today, Emily, now working as a translator in France, still finds her father’s email hard to stomach, but admits: ‘A lot of what Dad said is true and with time I’ve become more sympathetic towards his point of view.

‘What he said is what a lot of people of his age, gender and class would probably like to say to their children but would never dare to.

‘My parents have been married for 42 years and are of a generation who gritted their teeth and just got on with it when times were tough. I can see how exasperated they must be,’ says Emily who has two children — Margot, two-and-a-half, and Antoine, 18 months — with Pierre, and Jemima, 12, from her previous four-year marriage. ‘We were probably all phoning home with our various troubles or unwelcome news and they must have felt overwhelmed and wished we would just grow up."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237665/Nick-Crews-Id-mortified-needed-benefits-Father-frustrated-email-adult-children-went-viral-says-regret-voicing-views.html

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #100)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:48 PM

108. She also said her lack of self-confidence came from how he raised her.

Even today, most parents wouldn't write scathing letters about under-achievement to daughters like her: she has three kids, is married to a surgeon, is translating a book and has a small business.

She's trying to justify his behavior now, as many children of emotionally abusive parents do.

She hasn't wrapped her mind around his complete self-absorption. (As evidenced by his complaint that his children haven't given him enough to brag about.) It's hard for the children of a narcissist to accept that their parent will never be capable of empathy or genuine love -- that any affection they receive is entirely dependent on how good they make their parent look.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #108)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:59 PM

114. IMO, a parent can say whatever they want to their adult children.

It may be justified or maybe not but I'm reminded of the numerous threads here about members posting about how they let their relatives, even parents, have it during the holiday season meals and it's usually about politics. Some here said they don't even communicate anymore with siblings, parents or other close relatives.

My own father talked to me like I was still a teenager living at home well into my 40's and running my own business. While annoying, I just accepted it as that's the way he was.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #114)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:05 PM

116. I suppose they can, but their adult children also can cut them out of their lives.

The real damage is when the narcissistic parents abuse their children as they are growing up.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #114)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:09 AM

124. they can talk any way they like, but the results may not be to their liking. what is the point

 

of criticizing your children & being disappointed in them? it's counterproductive, imo. shame can sometimes be a kick in the pants, but just as often it can be a complete demotivator.

people don't shape up until they themselves want to. i dont' think regular shaming furthers that process of self-understanding because one gets too wrapped up in 1) defending onself and 2) self-loathing & insecurity.

you need some basic sense of security & confidence before you're able to take risks & be able to keep going with a good spirit in spite of failure.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:44 PM

170. one wonders with parents like this- Did they interfere with the marriage?

 

most likely!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:07 PM

118. He's the British version of a teabagger.

Note that he's also against people getting state benefits in retirement. Ironic, since he was a serviceman.


“It upsets me that they occupy basic-wage positions instead of working at the upper periphery of their capability.
"I would be mortified if they were to need — either immediately or in later life — state benefits. They should contribute to, not draw from, the pot. I long to see them take responsibility for their actions.”
He blames contemporary culture, which proffers us “a cancerous cocktail where on the one hand everyone is supposed to be free to do whatever they wish, but on the other we all expect protection from the consequences of our actions”.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:24 AM

125. Sounds like his kids are just like HIM. He appears to be doing in his letter what he accuses

them of. Not surprised.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:28 AM

128. "Crews, a retired British naval officer" says volumes if you're familiar with the breed.

 

There are stereotypes for a reason, and this message nearly screams of what kind this man is.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:15 AM

130. The Great Santini would tell this guy to chill out.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:21 AM

131. It would help a bit if the Telegraph had given its readers some hint

of what had really happened in his grown children's lives...not HIS version of those lives, but the reality of them.

Do we really know for sure that they'd done THAT badly in life overall? Or that, if they'd had setbacks and failures, that those events were solely of their own doing?

The photo that accompanied the article does make the man look like he'd have been terrifying when his kids were little. There's an arrogance in the way he holds himself, and a hardness in the eyes even as he smiles.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:21 AM

134. If my Dad said that to me I'd be gutted.


But, to be fair, he would have a point.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:27 AM

136. Great letter and thanks for posting. I truly understand the Father's point of view.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:23 AM

140. Its Festivus!!

Time for the airing of grievances! Bring out the pole!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:24 AM

141. "...and I sense Mum feels the same..."


That phrase tells me all I need to know about this guy. Blow it out your ass, Pops. If you're disappointed in your kids, try looking in a mirror. I sense Mum feels the same, but she doesn't dare tell you....

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Response to Paladin (Reply #141)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:41 AM

212. I'm disappointed in his dentist.

Google this story and you'll see what I mean.

Yes, I'm mean.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:06 AM

144. When a parent says something like this to you about his children, inquire about facts.

I read the father's letter. Then I went looking for facts. Are his children, in fact, unemployed parasites on their parents, both financially and emotionally? I found that the oldest daughter of the family is in fact employed, married to a surgeon, and raising three children, two of whom are babies. I found that the other two children are also reportedly employed.

My father tended to talk about my sister and me this way. When we got good grades in school, he misrepresented them as "ok but not great" to his neighbors and colleagues. Our behavior - boringly exemplary in terms of never being in trouble with the law or any authorities (since we were so frightened to do anything wrong, but I'll get to that in a minute) - was described with sighs, rolling eyes, "you knows," and grimaces to his relatives and colleagues, who thought that they were commiserating with somebody whose children, like theirs, were using drugs, failing in school, and getting arrested for drunk and disorderly. In fact, my sister and I were cleaning house, driving our mother around, cooking, and generally acting like scared rabbits trying to please a pair of unpleasable, narcissistic parents. Our thanks was more criticism of us to the outside world.

I didn't realize how abusive this behavior was until I went away to college and discovered that not everybody treated their roommates to screaming meltdowns and constant criticism. Also, my friends started to notice that something was odd about my parents when they would stop by for a visit and hear my father say that he was "sick of me" and "glad that I was out of the house." Their parents didn't talk that way about them.

One more thing - my parents absolutely refused, from the time my sister and I were little, to help us achieve anything. Science fair at school? We can't drive you to do it - you're on your own. Want to be part of a club or editor of your school yearbook? No, we don't have the time. Need a new winter coat because the old one is falling apart and you've outgrown your winter boots? Sigh. We don't have the money! (This while thousands were being spent each month on beer, liquor, cigarettes, new furniture for the house, vacations for them, etc.) I could go on and on but I'm getting a headache.

My point is - when somebody says something like this about their children, inquire about the facts.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #144)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:10 AM

145. I agree yardwork. I'm amazed at the number of people here who applauded this letter without

inquiring about the other side of the story.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #145)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:21 AM

148. They assumed that the father was describing genuinely "bad" children. They took his word for it.

With only the father's word, we don't know if this is a case of truly horrible children and a desperate father who has finally given up, or a case of a narcissistic, abusive father who is unfairly criticizing his children.

People who didn't know me or my sister would have believed my father's representation of us. People who did know us would call me up and say that they were concerned about me, because my father was saying strange things that they knew were false. That's how I found out what he was saying about me to others. How many others never bothered to check? And in how many ways did that hurt me, and my sister, in achieving the success that the narcissistic parent craves? Good parents help their children - they introduce them to people who can become mentors in school and in their careers. They encourage their children and speak well of them to others when it is deserved. In this way, good parents help their children make their way in the world and learn to support themselves.

I went a long way away to college and never returned home. I got married young and distanced myself from my parents. I'm successful in my career and, after decades of therapy, a generally happy well-adjusted person. My sister went to college in our hometown and stayed in close orbit with my parents, constantly seeking their approval. She has problems.... Naturally, my parents blame her for entirely for her problems. No whisper of blame attends to them, the parents!

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Response to yardwork (Reply #148)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:36 AM

150. I'm sorry you went through that and I feel bad for your sister.

My parents treated my oldest sister (she's 20 years older than I am and there are 6 of us) like shit when she got pregnant out of wedlock in the early 70s. I was an infant at the time, so I didn't learn this chapter of our family history until I was an adult. They kicked her out and sent her to a home for unwed mothers because she would be a bad influence on her younger sisters. When they would go for visits and take her out for a ride, they made her duck down so she couldn't be seen. My sister's baby died shortly after birth. My mother eagerly assumed the role of the grieving grandma.

The irony here is a few years earlier, my father's youngest sister, who lived with us, got knocked up out of wedlock, didn't tell anyone she was pregnant until she went into labor, and didn't let anyone know she was keeping the baby until the day she was released from the hospital. Not only was she not thrown out, my parents helped support her daughter. Nothing was ever said to her about being a bad influence on her nieces.

To this day, I'm amazed my sister ever spoke to my parents again.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #150)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:46 AM

151. That's so sad. How is your sister now?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #151)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:01 AM

153. She's still angry at my parents and I don't blame her. The thing is they're both dead so she

can't tell them how much they hurt her. I feel bad for her because she's disabled and homebound and spends a lot of time dwelling on the past. I do the only thing I can do, which is listen when she needs to talk about it.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #150)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:47 AM

152. My first awful thought

when I read your post was that your aunt's baby might have been your father's. That's why he treated it differently. Yikes. Just a thought. BTW, your story is compelling and heartfelt. Sorry you had to go through that.

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Response to rainin (Reply #152)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:09 AM

154. I don't think so. If that were the case there would be some kind of physical resemblance and

Last edited Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:30 PM - Edit history (1)

there isn't any. We've discussed this at length and have come to the conclusion that my aunt's pregnancy didn't reflect on my parents parenting skills, where my sister's did. I didn't go through anything, really. I was just baby when all this went on and didn't find out about it until much later.

ETA: Kicking my sister out was more of my mom's thing than my dad's. Mom was a big proponent of tough love (though she mellowed as she got older) and came from a large, judgemental, Irish Catholic family that was steeped in unacknowledged dysfunction. She was pissed that my sister made her look bad in front of her family. On the contrary, relatives on my father's side weren't all that concerned with appearances. They knew they were fucked up and owned their dysfunction.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #144)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:30 AM

210. I'm so sorry for your experience. I was raised in a similar environment and I get it.

It's so damaging and harmful. So many narcissicistic parents think their children owe them. My step-mother who physically and mentally abused me daily felt that I OWED her an apology. I actually did it and she said "It's about time". Why the F**K was I apologizing to a woman who had beaten the shit out of me every day of my young life until I left for college.

She actually thought that she was the victim. That is the very definition of narcissicm.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #210)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:22 PM

214. I'm very sorry that that happened to you.

Thank you for posting about this.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:12 AM

155. I'm thinking here the mother has something to do with this

She may be encouraging complaints - and getting involved in drama because she likes it.

At any rate, this guy does not love his children - he wanted bragging rights from them and that's it.

And we don't know their side. It is harder to have a successful marriage these days, in fact, divorce is the norm. So maybe he's asking too much on that score.

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Response to treestar (Reply #155)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:17 PM

181. Some of the other articles told more about the kids.

None of them have ever relied on financial assistance from the father or the state. One of them works for a taxi service. I don't remember the second's job, but she or he has one, and is self-supporting. The oldest daughter isn't self-supporting, probably -- but she has a surgeon husband. For most of us parents, that would be considered adequate! She also has two toddlers and a twelve year old, has a small translating business, and has been translating a book that's about to be published.

She is one of the children who has been divorced; the toddlers are with her second husband.

You're right that the mother might be encouraging complaints -- sometimes people with personality disorders marry each other, and this father is a textbook narcissist. But it could just be that the father is jealous of the attention the mother pays to the children. That would be in keeping with his narcissism.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #181)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:05 AM

197. Didn't think of that but it makes sense

He is complaining on behalf of their mother, it seems. Did she ask for his officiousness? Maybe he just doesn't like the time she devotes to listening to them.

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Response to treestar (Reply #197)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:13 AM

198. They sent their children off to boarding school, which in Britain can be as early as age 8,

and the father admits having little to do with them after that point.

He probably likes having the mother all to himself; and his likes his children, as long as they give him enough to brag about.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:13 AM

156. "Having a family is like having a bowling alley installed in your brain." - Redd Foxx

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:43 AM

157. seabeyond, how can you like this letter?

Regardless if his anger is justified, there is no love in this letter. There are many ways you can speak to your children without saying things like "never-ending bad dream of our children's underachievement and domestic ineptitudes". A loving parent would never say this. This father's words were meant to cut. He should apologize.

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Response to rainin (Reply #157)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:52 PM

171. Seabeyond may have her own experiences

which involve people who are genuinely assholes. However,there is a bit of irony here, that Commander Crews seems to be the willfully clueless, entitled male asshole that groups like the Feminists had to band together to deal with.

No offense Seabeyond, you know I respect you, but this Crews fellow,in addition to being arrogrant, does show himself to be quite the arrogant patriarch.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:45 AM

158. This is the exact mentality we are dealing with in the Republican party

 


They are narcissists. They have never seen anything from anyone else's point of view, and they are just not capable.

It's all me me me. This is why we need to ignore this mentality nationally and do what is right for the country. It appears this type of immoral selfish attitude lends well to making lots of money and taking over power nationally.

I am my parents biggest disappointment. I graduated from college. I got married, had two kids, have been taking care of myself and never asked for anything. But they decided they hate my husband, hate me, took my inheritance when my grandma died but gave it to my brothers. They made up stories to the relatives to the point people were talking to me like I needed to escape an abusive relationship and I had no idea what they were talking about. Their biggest disappointment now is that I have not failed like they hoped. Had I failed, they would be the last people I would turn to for help. These parents are lucky their kids still trust them enough to turn to them for help, not anymore I am sure.

When I trace back to when I started being treated differently, it was when they figured out I was a liberal even before I did.

I imagine this has been going on across the board, greedy mean Republican parents withholding from liberals because they are assholes. Family Values my ass!

Multiply that by the years of accumulating wealth and being surrounded by yes men because they drove everyone else away....now we have a half a nation of narcissistic sociopaths, choosing leaders who support their world view of more more more for me me me.

They can't see anything from anyone else's perspective because they have never had to. Just like in my family, I was chased off, and the yes men continue to enable the sociopaths.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:50 AM

159. Why on earth is this news?

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #159)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:24 PM

164. It has struck a national nerve- this dad is the perfect example of Republican family values

 

n/t

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #164)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:31 PM

167. It's not news.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #165)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:22 PM

182. Yes, sort of. She also says that her lack of self-confidence came from the way he treated her

as she was growing up.

This woman has a small translating business, is about to publish a book she translated, and has two toddlers, a twelve year old, and a surgeon husband. She says she had already turned her life around when he sent her the letter. So why did he send it to her? Because he's a textbook narcissist. And she's the unfortunate adult child who's most wrapped up in his web, because she comes closest to meeting his expectations.


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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:32 PM

168. Is there any chance this dude is a pissed off Republican and his kids are liberals?

 

Little upset about losing the election?

Unable to accept being wrong?

Lashing out at the children instead?

(I know he is in the UK- but they are united in their idiocy and this has been a blow to their philosophy)

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #168)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:25 PM

185. He's like a tea bagger. He's against anyone getting money

from the government in retirement, and says he's worried that his children might need to.

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #168)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:49 PM

194. I get the distinct impression that he's pissed off that his son-in-law is French

even though he is a surgeon.

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #168)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:53 AM

230. More like a bitter old Tory whose kids vote Labour

Mad that Cameron doesn't have a majority

Resentful that he didn't get more wars to send men off to die in.

Bitter that Ulster, Scotland and even Wales are slowly easing their way out of the UK.

Unable to accept that the old, Imperial world he grew up worshiping no longer exists.

And taking all THAT out on the kids.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:09 PM

179. hmmm. i would not write that letter since it would reflect on my poor parenting skills

if all three of my children are failures then i must have failed at parenting. one out of three, maybe it's their doing entirely but if its all three, then i must have contributed

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #179)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:26 PM

186. You wouldn't write that letter because you're not a narcissist, unlike that grandiose jerk. nt

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #186)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:39 PM

187. thanks.



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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #187)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:56 PM

196. How does your Internet friend know what sort of parent you are, dearie?

 

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Response to oh reiki ur so fine (Reply #196)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:23 AM

200. oh lg am i now your frenemy?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:52 PM

195. Sometimes it is the parents who have created

the problem in the first place. Many parents are former latch key kids who are determined that they will give their kids everything that they feel they never got.

The office I work in deals with hiring young people who are in college or just out of college. It is amazing how many of them are clueless about the actual process of what it takes to become independent adults. We are currently interviewing for one position and the father of one of the applicants actually called to see if the position had been filled. The applicant is the one who should have called not Dad. We have had Moms or Dads calling us to find out what jobs might be available for their son or daughter. What is the matter of teaching our children to exhibit some initiative? There have been candidates who have shown up to an interview with Mom and Dad. Actions like that are the kiss of death for a job applicant. I heard more than one manager say that they would never higher someone with parental issues like that. There are some young people that just plain wear on you.

I told my boss the other day that high schools and colleges really need to have mandatory workshops to teach children the process of job hunting, interviewing techniques, resume writing, business etiquette, and so on.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:29 AM

201. What a dick

That's all I've got to say.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:26 AM

209. Can I post some random letter from a girlfriend in High School and get 200+ replies?




People will argue about anything around here

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #209)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:42 AM

213. i had a similar reaction

I thought, why did this go viral? And the people taking sides, that seems crazy to me.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:00 AM

218. I'd have to know more about their situation before passing judgement.

You can't really know the whole story from this letter.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:37 PM

220. He sounds like a complete asshole. His children are lucky

that they don't live at home. Can you imagine?

He was saying his wife was upset -- which could be considered as him assigning blame to his wife in addition to how he feels about his children. Maybe he feels like he's weighted down by her fragile ego, too. Excuse me as I shed some tears.

I think this kind of thing - being upset when your kids grow up and don't live up to your expectations -- plagues a lot of families. It often just doesn't play out in such a dramatic fashion.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:29 AM

223. Something needs to be done about "whingeing / whinging".

It is spelled WHINING.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #223)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:37 AM

225. Not in the UK it ain't.

So don't whinge about it anymore.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #225)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:41 AM

226. I see people misspelling it mostly in the US.

I have seen it spelled "whingeing" or "whinging" more and more frequently over the past year or so. If someone wants to show me proof that those are accepted alternate spellings of "whining", I will eat my words.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #226)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:55 AM

231. What you're seeing is people in the States using the UK spellings as an affectation.

Look at the websites for any British newspaper or the BBC, you'll see "whinging" or "whingeing" there all the time.

In the meantime, though, here's a fairly authoritative source on the matter:


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whinge

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #231)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:08 AM

233. I just had to get to the bottom of this:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whinge

"Whinging" is a real word that means the same thing as "whining", but with the different spelling also accompanies a different pronunciation. It is pronounced the way it looks!

Someone upthread posted a different link that says the same thing. Hopefully, that settles it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:32 AM

224. If this is how he communicates, why would he ever have expected that his kids

would ask him for advice? I wouldn't if I was his son.

He probably spent their childhoods treating them like they were midshipmen who'd swabbed the poop deck badly-that is, when he talked to them at all.

And the man takes no notice of the fact that Britain, like the rest of the world, has been in some sort of recession or other for most of the adult lives of his offspring...the best-organized and most motivated of their generation would have found earning a decent living tough sledding at best.

Sanctimonious, judgmental dick(thanks to Dirk Gently for that perfectly descriptive phrase, btw).

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