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Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:23 PM

The Humiliation of Bradley Manning. Had he only checked first to see if he meet with Whistleblower

status before making it know to the world what was being denied.... I guess being a person who stands up, is at risk, of meeting with the same abuse you are hoping will be stopped.




“At the torturer’s whim, the logs reveal, the victim can be hung by his wrists or by his ankles;
knotted up in stress positions; sexually molested or raped; tormented with hot peppers, cigarettes, acid, pliers, or boiling water — and always with little fear of retribution since, far more often than not, if the Iraqi official is assaulting an Iraqi civilian, no further investigation will be required.

“Most of the victims are young men, but there are also logs which record serious and sexual assaults on women; on young people, including a boy of 16 who was hung from the ceiling and beaten; the old and vulnerable, including a disabled man whose damaged leg was deliberately attacked. The logs identify perpetrators from every corner of the Iraqi security apparatus — soldiers, police officers, prison guards, border enforcement patrols.

“There is no question of the coalition forces not knowing that their Iraqi comrades are doing this: the leaked war logs are the internal records of those forces. There is no question of the allegations all being false. Some clearly are, but most are supported by medical evidence and some involve incidents that were witnessed directly by coalition forces.”

Possessing such evidence — and knowing that the U.S. high command was systematically ignoring these and other crimes — Manning was driven by a sense of morality to get the evidence to the American people and to the world.

http://original.antiwar.com/mcgovern/2012/11/28/the-humiliation-of-bradley-manning/

118 replies, 13713 views

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Reply The Humiliation of Bradley Manning. Had he only checked first to see if he meet with Whistleblower (Original post)
midnight Nov 2012 OP
Mnemosyne Nov 2012 #1
Cleita Nov 2012 #2
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #8
Cleita Nov 2012 #10
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #19
Rockyj Nov 2012 #45
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #47
midnight Nov 2012 #60
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #75
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #90
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #115
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #117
Marinedem Nov 2012 #3
Gregorian Nov 2012 #4
midnight Nov 2012 #6
Cleita Nov 2012 #12
midnight Nov 2012 #22
Cleita Nov 2012 #29
midnight Nov 2012 #62
Cleita Nov 2012 #63
midnight Nov 2012 #67
EX500rider Nov 2012 #56
Cleita Nov 2012 #57
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #109
EX500rider Dec 2012 #110
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #113
Gregorian Nov 2012 #32
NCTraveler Nov 2012 #9
Gregorian Nov 2012 #37
LittleGirl Nov 2012 #41
Recursion Dec 2012 #83
NCTraveler Dec 2012 #88
Recursion Dec 2012 #95
Gregorian Dec 2012 #111
NCTraveler Dec 2012 #118
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #61
Recursion Dec 2012 #78
randome Dec 2012 #85
Recursion Dec 2012 #86
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #112
NCTraveler Dec 2012 #87
midnight Nov 2012 #5
mythology Nov 2012 #65
midnight Nov 2012 #66
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #11
KittyWampus Nov 2012 #21
reusrename Dec 2012 #92
midnight Nov 2012 #24
Dragonfli Nov 2012 #17
Marinedem Nov 2012 #25
Dragonfli Nov 2012 #35
Fuddnik Nov 2012 #55
Recursion Dec 2012 #98
spooky3 Nov 2012 #28
Marinedem Nov 2012 #34
spooky3 Nov 2012 #38
pnwmom Nov 2012 #31
Dont call me Shirley Nov 2012 #33
Marinedem Nov 2012 #36
femrap Nov 2012 #42
loudsue Nov 2012 #46
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #53
nadinbrzezinski Nov 2012 #54
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #48
Recursion Dec 2012 #79
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #91
Recursion Dec 2012 #93
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #96
Recursion Dec 2012 #97
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #99
Recursion Dec 2012 #100
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #101
Recursion Dec 2012 #105
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #107
rhett o rick Nov 2012 #50
nadinbrzezinski Nov 2012 #52
midnight Dec 2012 #70
sibelian Dec 2012 #71
MADem Dec 2012 #104
MrMickeysMom Dec 2012 #116
Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2012 #7
Cleita Nov 2012 #16
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #20
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #13
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #14
midnight Nov 2012 #18
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #26
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #49
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #51
midnight Nov 2012 #64
woo me with science Nov 2012 #15
white_wolf Nov 2012 #23
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #30
midnight Nov 2012 #39
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #40
midnight Dec 2012 #69
Recursion Dec 2012 #80
truedelphi Nov 2012 #27
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #44
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #106
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #59
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #114
blackspade Nov 2012 #43
snot Nov 2012 #58
WillyT Nov 2012 #68
Mangoman Dec 2012 #72
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #74
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #77
EX500rider Dec 2012 #108
Mangoman Dec 2012 #84
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #89
Recursion Dec 2012 #94
Recursion Dec 2012 #81
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #73
Coyotl Dec 2012 #76
Recursion Dec 2012 #82
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #103
treestar Dec 2012 #102

Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:33 PM

1. K&R

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:40 PM

2. A lesson I learned early in life, is if you are going to report the boss for breaking the rules

or being a crook, you'd better be prepared to accept the consequences, or have a strong union behind you. In Manning's case, there is no union, so he probably should have hired a lawyer first to advise him the best way to go about this and what the pitfalls and consequences would be to him, preferable an ex-military lawyer. Whatever! It was risky business, although I don't believe any one, even experienced lawyers with a military background, could have predicted how craven his treatment for this would have been.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:10 PM

8. He was prepared, and he said so. Which is what makes him all the more of a hero.

In his own words, before he was identified and arrested, he stated that he did not mind going to prison for exposing the crimes, but he did express some of his other fears. Looks like his fears were exploited since they were known.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:12 PM

10. I think his idea of prison was different than what he got.

It will make other whistleblowers think twice before acting. It's too bad. I really wish there was a way to prosecute every asshole who tormented this poor boy and send them to prison instead.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:45 PM

19. I think that is part of US strategy. And it is shameful. We used to attack dictatorships for

doing these kinds of things.

And all they have accomplished is to show the world that we are desperate to silence anyone willing to report on war crimes. And what that says is that 'War Crimes are approved of and protected by the US Government'.

I wonder if anyone, other than P.J. Crowley, realizes the harm this does to this country. And Crowley had to step down himself for pointing out that the treatment of Manning was 'counter-productive'.

The more we learn, the more shocked I am by what this country apparently has become.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:47 PM

45. I agree...

Manning risked so much to get the truth out & to be treated as a criminal is so wrong!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:56 PM

47. Daniel Ellsberg backs Manning and that's good enough for me and should be good

 

enough for anyone who knows or remembers what Ellsberg went through.

Those who are just fine with Manning's treatment by the authorities would probably have been just fine with what Nixon and his goons did to Ellsberg, come to think of it.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:47 PM

60. What a great reminder and example of why this treatment of Manning is very concerning...

I just looked up Elsberg and found this info. from last year.. But it does list other people who stepped forward about this subject...



"Retired US Army Reserve Colonel Ann Wright said, "I felt the pre-trial conditions of solitary confinement and nudity that PFC Bradley Manning was subjected to in the Quantico brig for many months were outrageous and that public action by veterans and citizens to show their concern for the rights of this soldier was necessary."

Bradley Manning was moved to the military prison in Leavenworth, Kansas, and now is in general population. His situation has greatly improved, probably because of the protests and pressure generated around the world condemning the inhumane treatment."

"WHO: On March 20, 2011, thirty three activists, including Daniel Ellsberg who released the Pentagon Papers, were arrested outside the entrance to the Quantico Marine Base in Triangle, Virginia . The arrests took place on Route 1 after a rally condemning the torture of Pfc. Bradley Manning, an alleged whistleblower, then imprisoned in the Quantico brig. He was kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day at that time for a period of eight months and suffered other indignities. There was no conceivable justification for such degrading treatment, which brought back memories of the abuses committed in Abu-Ghraib."


"WHAT: After the arrests, John Zwerling, a prominent Alexandria , Virginia attorney agreed to take on the cases pro bono. Since the arrests, some defendants pled guilty and paid fines, one refused and spent a day in jail, and a majority had there charges dismissed. Four defendants, though, Jean Athey, Helen Gerhardt, Max Obuszewski and Col. Ann Wright, decided to go to trial. Gerhardt and Obuszewski, facing a charge of malicious obstruction of traffic, will represent themselves. And Zwerling and his legal team will represent Athey, facing the traffic charge, and Col. Wright, who still faces two charges, including unlawful assembly."

https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2011/11/488097.html

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:30 AM

75. At some point in time, the Nixon wing of the GOP was absorbed by the....

.... RW of our party and the attitude toward Manning among these neo-Dems is kind of a case in point.

There's also a generation-gap type thingie going on. People in their forties and younger missed VN-Watergate, etc etc etc and were brainwashed by the post VN revisionism with which the general public was swamped via gov't and ma$$ media in the 80's.

That revisionism is now their perception. ( I'm speaking in GENERAL terms. Not everyone under 50 was successfully brainwashed. But AS A GENERATION their brains are spic and span.)

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:18 AM

90. My wife frequently argues that Obama's policies are to the right

 

of Nixon's, by which she means to say that the entire political spectrum has swung decidedly rightward in the intervening 30 years since the advent of Reagan-Bushism.

But your post underscores and reinforces her point, I think, and helps to explain how travesties like Operation Shocking and Awful could happen. This generation never learned that, as the Pentagon Papers decisively reveal, the government can and will lie to its subjects repeatedly and with malice aforethought.

Thanks for chiming in. We do what we can to keep history alive and relevant, eh?

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #90)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:30 PM

115. The old GOP was WAY to the left of where the RW of the DEM party is now.

Can you imagine Obama saying something like ( or even *quoting* ) what Eisenhower said in 1960 re. the "military-industrial-congressional ( "congressional" was in the original text; he should have left it in, obviously) complex"?

It's inconceivable. The reality is, he'd be describing himself.

As a party we DEMs still claim to champion labor. But where did that 1 billion dollars come from that just paid for the president's campaign ? It didn't come primarily from working people, I can assure you. And since it mostly came from corporate interests it's less "contribution" than "investment".

Money expects, and *gets* a return on its investments. That's how it got to be "money".

re. History: the under 50s think of "impeachment" as a circus having something to do w. a semen stained dress. Need I say more? It's a different mentality altogether.

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #115)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:46 AM

117. I mark the end of the Dem Party I know and love to Clinton's embrace of

 

"welfare reform" and NAFTA. I haven't seen any studies or statistics on the suffering Clinton's welfare reform inflicted on the poor during the financial collapse of 2007-09, but I'll bet it was significant and something deserving of scorn from any true progressive. NAFTA's depredations on the working class hardly require any further annotation or elucidation by me, I think.

Here's a little exchange between my Mom (now passed) and me from August 1974:

Mom (an inveterate Nixon hater going back to the days of Helen Gahagan Douglas): "This time they've got him" (said with cackling glee).
Me (at the time 15 years old and just discovering politics and political activism): "I don't know, Mom, he may pull another Checkers speech."
Mom: "Nope, this time he's done. It's over."

That was the last time the system worked to police itself. It's been a long, gradual decline into senescence ever since, not that those words get much credence here.




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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:53 PM

3. Screw Bradley Manning.

 

He had no intention of being a "Whistle-blower", he just wanted to hit back at the Army, which he perceived as a bunch of big ole' meanie-heads. A whistle blower is aware of some specific injustice and seeks to have it rectified. Manning scooped almost 3/4s of a million secret dispatches into a CD-ROM and sent it off to Julian Assange.

He isn't some gold-plated whistle-blower like you envision. Manning didn't sit down and comb through these files to find things he disagreed with. He simply had himself a fire-sale of retribution with .gov docs.

Read up on Manning sometime. The guy was a petulant child for the Army from the get go, with a persecution complex due to being corrected/reprimanded for being a fuck-up all the time. This was just the final "Fuck you" to an organization he swore and oath to, all to satisfy his personal vendettas.

Whistle blowing is good. Whistle blowing should be encouraged. There should be cash prizes and shit.

Manning is no whistle blower. Manning is a reckless, self-centered ass of the highest order.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:56 PM

4. I remember DU.

That place where people were concerned about human rights.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:06 PM

6. Gregorian even though the popularity of human rights is not a hot ticket item... I can't wonder how

anyone can be so cool with that idea...


I read a post before thanksgiving about someone who was so inspired by a teacher they had who took class room time to encourage them to never stand by and be silent and allow someone else to be harmed... Apparently this teacher read that a women was brutally physically assaulted or brutally sexually assaulted and many people stood by and did nothing... We are being groomed to be compliant...

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Response to midnight (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:17 PM

12. Yes, human rights thinking seem to be in short supply

among our present day military. It's not American but very South American IMHO. George Washington and all those who conquered Europe in WWII, I think would have been aghast. When Germany fell, the Germans ran west because they knew they would get better treatment than from the Russians. I wonder if the Russians of WWII would have even been okay with what we have done in these last two wars?

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Response to Cleita (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:59 PM

22. This is interesting.... I thought we brought the German Scientist here to help our industries...

I'm not familiar with other coming here to escape a harsher deal via the Russians?

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Response to midnight (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:12 PM

29. Apples and Oranges. We didn't bring them here. The scientists were a different

thing altogether. The rank and file Nazis knew they had to surrender to one of the allies. They ran west into Europe, hoping to run into Americans advancing on Germany because they knew they would be treated better. The Russians raped the German women who were left behind, tortured and killed the men and made sure they starved all of them as well. We put the military into POW camps until they could be processed at the end of the war and I know the treatment wasn't great, but it was humane. As far as the civilian population, we left them alone, but I think we did a lot of looting. I remember soldiers coming back from the war in my neighborhood bringing back a lot of "souvenirs".

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Response to Cleita (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:18 PM

62. What a terrible fate... My uncle never came home from war.

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Response to midnight (Reply #62)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:26 PM

63. I 'm sorry.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #63)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:15 PM

67. Me too.....

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Response to Cleita (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:07 PM

56. "I wonder if the Russians of WWII would have even been okay with what we have done..."

Just how much WWII Eastern Front history do you know?

After the battle of Stalingrad, 107,800 soldiers of the 6th Army entered Soviet captivity- only about 6,000 survived to make it home...

I doubt at our worst we have ever had a 5% survival rate of POW's after they surrendered.

The Soviet treatment of POW's made the Bataan Death march look like a picnic.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #56)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:24 PM

57. I know about that and probably it was

a stupid thing to say. However, before that the Germans treated the Russians they took prisoner awfully and tortured and killed thousands of them before Hitler got the crazy idea of going to Stalingrad. Hitler hated Slavs of any sort. My husband was friends with a German at his job who survived Stalingrad. They mostly starved and froze to death. He spoke of stacking the frozen corpses as bunkers to hide behind. Of course the Russians were very much into revenge when they closed in on Germany in the final stages of the war so the rape and pillage was not pretty. However, since I'm old enough to have talked to survivors from Germany from that era, I don't ever remember stories about Russians patrolling the streets of German cities shooting civilians for fun and sport. It may have happened but I never saw accounts written down about it nor talked to people who had been through the war in Europe who witnessed that.

I also, knew a Dutch girl who survived a Japanese concentration camp with her mother and sister in Indonesia. That was not pretty either. I guess I've lived too long. I never thought I would live to see the day that we are evil empire.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:10 PM

109. Putting those stats in perspective (and not excusing war crimes): the

 

USSR lost an estimated 20 million Soviets fighting the Nazis. The U.S. lost some 250,000 in the European theater, IIRC.

Not making excuses and I'm reminded of what Robert E. Lee is reported to have said to Longstreet at Fredericksburg:

" It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it."

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #109)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:19 PM

110. Oh I agree there...

... the German treatment of Soviet POW's was just as bad if not worse.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #110)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:23 PM

113. Yeah, again, I'm not excusing war crimes no matter who commits them. But it was not

 

simply the German treatment of Soviet POWs that was "as bad if not worse," it was the German invasion and occupation of Soviet land, accompanied by a brutality seldom matched in the history of the West. (Although I think some of the Nazi proxies like Rumania and various Baltic militias were actually even more brutal, if such is possible.)

Through its invasion and occupation of the USSR, the Nazis (and the Wehrmacht) forfeited any claims to decent treatment by Soviet captors or its partisans. I've got to be careful here, or I will find myself sliding down the slippery slope to justifying war crimes. But I think few realize exactly how atrocious Nazi behavior in occupied Russia really was. (As in 'Totally beyond the pale' atrocious.)

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Response to midnight (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:15 PM

32. I stand with Gen. Smedley Butler. And from the very beginning, these were wars of aggression.

I see people shooting the messenger. If George Bush himself had exposed the document, I would have cheered him as much as I hate him.

All wars are nothing more than doing the corporation's business. Some more, some less.

As a specie we're pathetic. We still won't talk about real child abuse. Only the most extreme cases, not the every day that nearly every child has experienced. I doubt we'll ever stop the killing. They're related.

Anyone who saw that footage of the helicopter killing innocent people should be compelled to defend leaks in the face of crimes.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:11 PM

9. Some of us, like myself, have a serious problem with his treatment.

At the same time he should spend the rest of his years behind bars.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:18 PM

37. I don't think this is all about Manning. This is about war crimes.

Manning is the messenger. Too many people don't see what this is all about. Gunships killing innocent people. Remember those videos? That's the kind of thing he exposed. Furthermore, those wars were unnecessary. They were frauds from the very beginning. So who is the one who should face justice? Bush, Cheney, etc. What they did was criminal. Backed up by Congress, sort of, but criminal nonetheless.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:34 PM

41. Exactly. Your post says it all. It's not about Manning

He's the messenger. War crimes were committed and everyone is forgetting that VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:15 AM

83. There was one video of a questionably legal air strike.

Everything else was diplomats and mid-level military officers emailing each other. What war crimes are you claiming he exposed?

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:39 AM

88. Show me the war crime directly linked to Manning. Yes I saw those videos.

Didn't realize they were in the Manning release. Were they? Link.

You are correct. Bush and Cheney should face justice. There is enough info out there to where they should have to. This line of thinking where if one thinks manning should face justice makes one think bush shouldn't is a binary way of thinking that I have to work to understand. I cannot understand how one can come to that conclusion.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:38 AM

95. ^^^ That. We don't know what Manning did and didn't leak

We have him bragging, secondhand through a pretty sketchy source, about some of the material that wound up both on WikiLeaks and in the press directly.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:36 PM

111. You're right. I am grouping it all in with Wikileaks.

That's a fault. And without going back and rereading everything over these years, I cannot give you specifics. I want everything to come to the light of day. That administration got away with murder. I hope people understand that. If it takes pulling the rug out from their secrets, then that's what it takes.

Yes, I have a kind of prejudice. A million dead Iraqis. Powell and his vial. Revealing Plame. Someone had to go outside of the system to shine light on these, and others.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #111)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:40 AM

118. Agree with everything in your post.

Would even add that due to the lack of in investigation it is continuing today. Don't put it simply in the past tense. I know that is not your intention just want to put it our there. By giving it a pass in the past it has allowed it to continue.

There is definitely more agreement than disagreement here.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:04 PM

61. Why? For exposing War Crimes?

Do you know what happened to the the victims of the crimes he exposed? Does anyone? Do you know what they did, why they were tortured? He did, and he reported it. Nothing happened to the torturers, our trained Iraqi 'democratic' police forces. They lucked out, our Government ignored their crimes. Not so Manning, who tried to save those courageous Iraqis who thought we had brought them Democracy. Were they tortured to death, were they let go, are they still being tortured? Does ANYONE care?

So can you explain why you think the person who reported war crimes, and when ignored, became a Whistle Blower in an attempt to stop them, should 'go to jail for life'?

And what should happen to the torturers he reported on? And what was done about the innocent victims he tried to save?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:01 AM

78. We don't know what he did and didn't leak, or why

He claimed credit for the cables, the logs, and the air strike video to Lamo (who is hardly the most trustworthy person), but because of the way the government fucked this case up we have no idea what he actually did or didn't leak, and anybody who says otherwise is lying.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #78)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:19 AM

85. Yet his attorneys are preparing to plead guilty to some of the charges.

That was floated yesterday, I believe. Of course no one KNOWS what he leaked, that's pretty much what the trial is about.

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Response to randome (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:26 AM

86. Specifically, we don't know about the Guantanamo leaks, and they're different

The Guantanamo leaks are the ones that detailed approval of torture techniques, but they are very different from the leaks that Manning claimed credit for, both in that he didn't claim credit and in that they were leaked directly to the press.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #78)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:22 PM

112. Yes we do, because he himself spoke about what he leaked before he was

arrested. We also know what he saw and what he reported regarding the torture which is what changed his mind about his own job. We know a lot if we take the time to read eg, his own words which, so far, no one has contradicted.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:32 AM

87. He had no clue what was in the information released. nt.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:59 PM

5. Since you never spoke with Bradely Manning... I can assume that you have nothing to lose by

insulting his intentions....

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Response to midnight (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:06 PM

65. Strange that you haven't chided anybody else in this thread for putting words

in MarineDem's mouth or questioning his intentions. Or do you only do that to people you disagree with?

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Response to mythology (Reply #65)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:11 PM

66. Usually I only have to question the intentions of another person's words when they dismiss

the acts of brutality....

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:16 PM

11. And you couldn't be more wrong.

You could of course take the trouble to read his own words on why he did what he did.

He became a Whistle Blower after his complaints about the war crimes he witnessed were ignored.

Btw, what is your opinion of the torturers? Regardless of Bradley Manning no one has yet denied that what prompted him to report what he was aware of actually happened.

Should they also be prosecuted in your opinion? We claim that 'we don't do torture'. That claim has been totally debunked and we know in many cases who the criminals are. Yet not a thing has been done to bring them to justice.

He believed that his government opposed torture. He found out the hard way how wrong he was.

So what is your position on the War Criminals who have yet to be even questioned about their crimes?

Do you even know what prompted him to, as he said, 'change his views' regarding his work? I would hope not, or I can't imagine any progressive democrat saying what you just did about someone who did not just decide in a vacuum to risk his freedom, which he knew he was doing. I'm assuming you do not know much about this case.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:57 PM

21. yeah, it's not like he wouldn't lie to make himself look good. And it's very easy to oppose torture

and still be honest about Manning.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:20 AM

92. So exactly how is someone supposed to oppose torture?

 

By remaining silent?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:02 PM

24. I think this is an awaking for many of us who thought our govt. didn't torture... But now that

this is out here and many are asking that it be rectified... There is no time for that...

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:41 PM

17. I get it, those that do morally reprehensible things should never be "narced on" by a fellow uniform

I imagine you feel that it is wrong to inform on a commanding officer or fellow soldier just for shooting some foreign children, or raping some non-American teenage girls because we got to stick together right (and those towel heads aren't real people right?

He is the enemy for telling on criminals because the criminals were wearing uniforms and some people aren't real people, you know? more like animals that look like people and it's not wrong to do bad things to these non-people, anyone that tells on such criminals deserve to be shot or something, am I close?

3 out of four uncles of mine are cops, they feel the same way, the "scumbags" are fair game (not real people you know?), if it goes a bit too far and they die, your partner will lie for you as he should about how it happened.

I know your type, in my opinion it is the monsters that he ratted out that are the non-humans if you catch my drift fella.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:02 PM

25. Whatever.

 

You obviously have zero reading comprehension.

"I imagine you feel that it is wrong to inform on a commanding officer or fellow soldier just for shooting some foreign children, or raping some non-American teenage girls because we got to stick together right (and those towel heads aren't real people right? "

If you don't see the difference between this and what manning did (Dumping every un-searched doc he could get his slimy little hands on with ZERO regard for non reportable and highly sensitive information that could be used against troops, assets, and families), then there is no point in arguing with you.

Manning didn't report some awful incident he personally knew of to the news or to the inspector general. He loaded up a CD-ROM with everything he had and sent it to julian fucking assange. He was no whistleblower until it suited his image, which became very public when fellow scumbag assange hung him out to dry.

Are you calling Arabs or other foreigners towel-heads? WTF is wrong with you? You seem to be projecting a lot of racist biases onto me. Do you have some unresolved feelings about foreigners you wish to discuss?

What he did was wrong because he leaked classified documents which jeopardized lives. He was grossly irresponsible. Whistle blowers don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Then again, he is no fucking whistle blower. He is a petulant child with a vendetta to satisfy. Fuck him.

One last thing. You don't know me from Adam. What is you're drift, by the way? If you have something to imply about me, you could come out and say it. You won't though. I know your type.


I'm done. Have fun in the echo chamber, fellas.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:17 PM

35. Not projection, I just know how certain types think and what they say when they are home and drunk

I know the type that would claim that the guilty party shouldn't be ratted out by his fellow officers, they always excuse what was ratted on as nothing bad, ALWAYS by framing "the others" of being somehow less than human, I know they use race to justify the crime when they are in a private setting, like at thanksgiving where they speak what they feel.

I can pretty much visualize you having beers with my uncles using the names I mentioned.

like you said, whatever, if you think he should have protected the guilty there is really only one reason for such a belief and I have just explained it twice now, I think it sucks, he has been abused himself for reporting on such abuse, he is the brave one, not the guys he narced on that you feel should not have been ratted out, they were just doin' the job right?

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:40 PM

55. Yeah, if he had just helped cover it up, like Colin Powell and My Lai

he could have moved up in the world.

Documents are rarely classified for secrecy. It's to hide our complicity and embarrassment.

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:47 AM

98. How many classified documents have you actually read?

As somebody who has worked in intel I get a little tired of the line that classification is done mostly for political or embarrassment reasons. Some? Sure. Most? No.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:11 PM

28. Let's assume that everything you said is true.

Does any of that justify how he was treated in custody? Does any of that negate the truth of what he reported?

There is absolutely no reason why he could not have been treated humanely, then given due process. If he behaved irresponsibly the justice system has ways for addressing that in a civilized manner.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:16 PM

34. That's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish

 

If he was indeed mistreated in custody, then those that did it should fry, same as any other case.

From what I've read about the case though, it seems like people are trying to paint the fact that he was stripped of any clothing items that he could have used to harm himself (After suggesting to the guards that he would hang himself) and being given a paper smock to wear (Standard procedure in potential suicide risk cases) was somehow mistreatment.

If there other stuff that he is accusing the guards of doing? If so, what? Serious question, not trying to be a coy dick or anything.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:20 PM

38. I don't think it is separate--it's all part of the same complex situation.

Yes, I have read other articles (on the internet, and I don't know if they are true) alleging more serious mistreatment of him in custody. They're probably still out there if you're interested.

on edit: the article linked in the OP provides a brief reference to "forced nudity" and extended isolation. That same article also questions whether the documents Manning allegedly released were highly classified or likely to endanger anyone. I am not attesting to the truth of that or any other article, since I obviously don't know--an investigation should clarify that. I am just pointing out that the situation is complicated.

And, the other point I was making is that, even if a "whistle-blower" is an a**hole, if s/he's speaking the truth about serious wrongdoing, that should be a primary concern.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:15 PM

31. I agree. His release was more tantrum than whistle blowing, regardless

of the content or the outcome.

The end does not justify the means.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:16 PM

33. Marinedem, That's the line directly from the propaganda machine.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:18 PM

36. Well...

 

When all else fails, accuse me of being a shill I guess.

God forbid someone dampens the sound effects in the echo chamber of solitude.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:34 PM

42. blah blah blah blah

 

blah blah blah blah.

Stick it.

You're not welcome. You think the US is always the knight with the shiny armor? You have no idea. Go read Howard Zinn's book on American history.

Use your brain.

Looking forward to not reading your senseless babble.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:50 PM

46. Woops! Here come the MIC apologists!

Our tax money at work.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #46)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #53)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:21 PM

54. Some were

I am sure.

The military is a mirror of society at large.

But you can say the same about critics of the mic, and the same meassure of doubt should be applied.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:58 PM

48. Manning revealed the commission of war crimes that were not being prosecuted or

 

even investigated.

So screw you.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:06 AM

79. What are you thinking of? He never claimed credit for the Gitmo leaks even to Lamo

The cables were embarrassing (and dangerous) to a lot of people but didn't describe any war crimes. The video shows a helicopter pilot speaking callously while interpreting the rules of engagement very broadly to allow him to shoot.

A lot of mythology has grown up around Manning, and I definitely blame the government's unconscionable treatment of him for that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #79)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:19 AM

91. I was thinking specifically of the footage of the helicopter pilot. I'm not an expert

 

on this issue, so I defer to my elders like Daniel Ellsberg. Are his credentials sufficeint for you?

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:31 AM

93. I don't argue by credential

I've seen the video; if it's a war crime it's a tenuous one.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:39 AM

96. I try not to argue by credential either, but life is short and there's more than

 

enough horrors to go around to fill a lifetime. So when Daniel Ellsberg vouches for someone's bona fides, I'll take Ellsberg's word over that of the political establishment any day, no question. This is the same poltiical establishment that is responsible for the deaths by premature violence of over 1,000,000 Iraqis and Afghans.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #96)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:44 AM

97. I haven't heard a "word of the political establishment"

From everything I've seen it looks like they don't know what the hell to do with him and nobody wants to take responsibility for making a decision.

You don't put prisoners in solitary to punish them, you put them there so you don't have to see them.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #97)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:51 AM

99. Just as Nixon's goombahs hoped to use Ellsberg as a demonstration project to any other

 

putative whistle blowers, so too the political establishment today hopes to use Manning as a similar demonstration project to intimidate and silence anyone who exposes its crimes and perfidies.

I have a very uneasy relationship with DU from time to time, because said political establishment includes, among others, John Kerry and Hillary Clinton (both of whom voted for Operation Shocking and Awful) and not simply Satan, Darth and their respective minions.

I've resisted the temptation to go down in flames here more than once but, if and when I do, it will probably be some odious policy pursued by the Dems that does it.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:02 AM

100. I'm still missing what "crimes and perfidies" he exposed

What whistle did he blow, exactly, in your mind? Are you (baselessly) assuming he was also the source for the Guantanamo leaks?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:08 AM

101. Helicopter pilot firing on unarmed civilians. Q.E.D. Now go fight with others on

 

this thread, please.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:14 AM

105. I saw a video of a helicopter firing at armed people

I haven't seen the video you're talking about. Did he leak two?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #105)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:23 AM

107. Google is your friend:

 

http://m24digital.com/en/2010/04/06/collateral-murder-video-exposes-iraqi-massacre-by-us-military/

The tape shows US soldiers repeatedly opening fire on a group of men that included Reuters photographer Namir Noor-Edeen and his driver, Saeed Chmagh, who died in the helicopter attack.

The soldiers, firing automatic weapons from a circling Apache helicopter, then callously attacked local residents, including two children who attempted to help the injured, killing at least 12 people.


**********************************

I've asked you nicely to go away and you didn't listen. So now I'll say it more bluntly: PISS OFF!

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:04 PM

50. I am so glad we have you to set us straight. You seem to know his intentions. Which of

course are more important that the results. Your rationalizations are suspicious.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:07 PM

52. Damn, I guess Daniel Elsberg should have been shot

At the first opportunity.

Manning did not put anybody in danger, not even DOD is making that argument, silly.

But I guess war crimes are only committed by the enemy and don't give me the you don't get it, cause many of us served.

I really pity those who can't understand why they are going after manning, no, not the leaks, the embarrassing nature of the leaks.

Oh and I have yet to hear any of you justify the pre-trial punishment, which is against the UCMJ.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:06 AM

70. Thank you for reminding us about the pre-trial punishment being against UCMJ.

Uniform Code of Military Justice....

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:02 AM

71. I know nothing about the man... but...


Even a petulant child can do the right thing, evenif it's by accident and without honest intent to do right. The subsequent treatment of this particular petulant child has been revealing.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:12 AM

104. There are people here who will challenge your progressive bona fides for stating the obvious.

Stand by for excoriation simply because you hold a different opinion about this guy.

Manning was, indeed, a reckless, self-centered ass--and he was played by another one. He didn't even read the shit he released. Much of it was pure gossip, of the sort that every embassy from every nation gathers.

I agree with you that whistle-blowing, when called for, is a good thing. Manning had and has issues--petulance among them. He was "too clever by half" as they say across the pond. For such a smart guy, he shoulda read his enlistment contract.

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Response to Marinedem (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:37 PM

116. That's the biggest piece of shit I've read today on DU...

Unless you are in a deeply personal acquaintance with BM, read up yourself, because you really should have been paying attention to facts that are based on real evidence, not the facts that fit your ideology.

Manning may or may not be a true whistle blower, but we'll never know, based on the way he was treated... tortured.

Talk about ass of the highest order...

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:08 PM

7. Kinda like going to the bank robbers to get an OK to inform on them.

Catch-22 writ large.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:32 PM

16. Very good way of putting it.

It's exactly that, which is why so many people in positions of power literally get away with murder.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #7)


Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:19 PM

13. K&R!

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Response to midnight (Original post)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:42 PM

18. When I read your title, this was the man who came to my mind...

Went to your link and read this:
War Is A Racket
WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people.
Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about.
It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

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Response to midnight (Reply #18)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:02 PM

49. Joseph Darby comes to mind (the soldier who blew the early whistle on Abu Ghraib). Then

 

there was General Taguba whose report about Abu Ghriab and assorted other crimes against humanity was a 'career ender.'

Link is from DU2:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2458953

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #49)


Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #49)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:40 PM

64. I wonder if he was responsible for Colonel Ann Wright's inspection and later

resignation from the military because they refused to end the inhumane treatment of other people...

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:26 PM

15. K&R

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:02 PM

23. If it was up to me everyone who participated in torture or approved it...

from the POTUS down would be facing charges and Manning would be given a medal.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #23)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:26 PM

39. I agree, but the guy who wrote the memo is teaching our new batch of law students...

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Response to midnight (Reply #39)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:01 AM

69. I know right? Absolutely nuts...

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:09 AM

80. So you're assuming Manning did the Gitmo leak, too?

Despite the fact that neither he nor Lamo ever said anything about it? Despite the fact that it was leaked directly to the press without going through WikiLeaks?

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:10 PM

27. Manning now joins the ranks of those who have done their nation a great service -

but at great expense to their own safety and ability to have a nice day.

Many here are probably too young to remember Hugh Thompson - but he was someone who attempted to stop the actions of those other American soldiers at the massacre held in My Lai, Vietnam.

More about a very apt comparison here:

http://my.firedoglake.com/booradley/2012/11/29/pfc-bradley-manning-2007-baghdad-airstrike-heir-to-lt-hugh-thompson-jr-1968-my-lai/

This nation truly needs more Hugh Thompsons, and more Bradley Mannings.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #27)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:17 AM

106. The 'careerists commissioned officers' = REMFs :) - n/t

 

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:00 PM

59. I had not heard of Hugh Thompson until about a year ago on DU. Funny how real heroes

are forgotten, while people like Colin Powell who was the opposite of a hero, are treated with so much respect and even Democrats seem to have forgotten his disgraceful role in getting this country into Iraq not to mention Vietnam.

I wonder why as children we are taught that being truthful and honest, that standing up for what is right, when the culture we live in does the exact opposite?

Hugh Thompson was a real hero, but like all our actual heroes, to honor him publicly might give more people, like Manning ideas I guess.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:31 AM

114. I forgot about Thompson. Thanks.

I know all abut Lindsay fucking Lohan but only really learned about Thompson from his obit in 2006.


What a culture.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:39 PM

43. K&R

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:53 PM

58. I and others who have followed Manning's case closely are grateful for his heroism,

if indeed it's proved that he's the one who leaked the Collateral Murder video and other evidence of U.S. war crimes.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:16 PM

68. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!




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Response to midnight (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:01 AM

72. I guess I'm confused..

 

What event did Manning actually blow the whistle on?
What outraged him so much he had to steal then release all this classified material?

Thanks in advance

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:54 AM

77. I never got this one...

 

Wandering the streets with RPGs at night, especially in that period of time was a sure fire way to get killed.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:50 AM

108. yeah I don't think most know..

.. that the helicopter vid was filmed around 2am in a city under curfew, it is most likely that they were insurgents, why else would the Reuters reporters imbed with them?

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:18 AM

84. I got the impression..

 

He didn't have any idea what he was leaking, the video you posted just happened to be in the dump.
Is that accurate?

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Response to Mangoman (Reply #84)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:40 AM

89. I'm pretty sure he saw it before and discussed it w. Adrian Lamo.

I'll defer to others for confimation of that.

He definitely knew he was leaking a lot of repulsive, sick shit that the Army was covering up by classifying as secret.

This is clear from the gov't-introduced weblogs. In those he discusses his own motivations in clinical detail unaware that he's being set-up.

The Manning haters keep going back to... well, he released MORE than just sick shit that was being deliberately covered up.

Those are the more *reality-based* Manning haters.

That may be. Perhaps Ellsberg released more than simply info that dealt w. VN and might have had implications for other foreign policy.

I frankly don't care. Ellsberg's leak (or should I make some DUers happy and say "espionage?) helped stop the war by blowing the cover on the giant con-job that was keeping people dying unnecessarily in SE Asia.

Sometimes people have to act and act quickly.

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #89)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:37 AM

94. I think a lot of what one thinks depends on how much one trusts Lamo

I'm not entirely convinced that Lamo didn't set up Manning as a patsy completely, for that matter...

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Response to Mangoman (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:12 AM

81. It's mostly myth. We don't know what he leaked

His illegal pretrial punishment has made him a hero, but it's not clear what he actually did. He told a hacker friend that he had leaked the State Department cables, the Iraq and Afghanistan emails, and the video of the air strike. Around the same time, somebody leaked the Gitmo memos that outlined "approved" torture techniques and the treatment of prisoners in Gitmo.

However, the Gitmo material was leaked directly to the press without going through WikiLeaks, and Manning never claimed credit for it.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:10 AM

73. i suppose you were all over Scooter Libby as a traitor

 

Libby WAS a traitor.

So is Manning.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:50 AM

76. It seems the most serious crime of all is exposing the second most serious crime of all

And I thought war crimes was on top of the list

People can prosecute and persecute Manning all they want, but that won't make the war crimes go away.
The war crimes are part of history now, and we have to face the truth of our recent actions and how we are to go down in history.

And the Republicans want to blame loss of life due to attacks on Americans on Obama?? This is why it is so important that we have a whistleblower like Manning, so truth drives the political dialogue, so Republicans have to face the facts about what drives the attacks instead of playing a distraction and look elsewhere game, playing politics with blame that rests more on them and Bush, even Reagan, than anywhere else, certainly not on Obama and his administration who inhereted their quagmire of war criminality and the logical hatred and retribution it engenders.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:14 AM

82. What crime are you saying he exposed?

I'm still trying to get a handle on what DU thinks Manning leaked.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:11 AM

103. Before we answer for Operation Shocking and Awful, there is the little matter of

 

the 2-3 million southeast Asians who aren't living thanks to us and our proxies and puppets.

Oh, yeah, lest I forget, a lot of dead El Salvadorans, Panamanians, Lebanese, Nicaraguans (moving forward in time from 1975 and not at all a comprehensive list) also require some answering to the bar of history.

I wish I could rec your post a million times.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:10 AM

102. Why is that unreasonable?

He was deciding to become a whistleblower. I would suppose no one would think that should be undertaken lightly, even where defending it.

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