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Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:53 AM

The truth about what young men knew about rape years ago.

In 1959, when I was about to start high school, a skinny 6'1" kid with zits on his face, my father sat me down to give me "the talk." Not the one about reproduction. I had learned about that from the book my parents gave me when I was about 10. No. This talk was about responsibility. The take-away from that talk was that men had no right to have sex with anyone. My father was very clear about that. What he explained was that, unless there was eager, enthusiastic consent from the other person, engaging in any sexual activity with that person was simply wrong. Eager. Enthusiastic. Those were his words. That was "the talk."

And he was absolutely correct. I knew it. I understood it as soon as I heard him say it. And that's how I approached sexual activity in my teens and beyond, into adulthood. I listened to my father, because I knew him to be an honorable person and because what he said had the ring of absolute truth in it.

Now, did that talk keep me from being sexually active in high school? Not at all. Eager and enthusiastic partners in canoodling weren't all that scarce, really. But, it did keep me from ever forcing, wheedling, or emotionally coercing any sexual activity, even minor sexual activity, from anyone. As my father said, that would be simply wrong.

Maybe some boys didn't get that message, but it was not an uncommon message. Most boys didn't rape. They simply didn't.

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Reply The truth about what young men knew about rape years ago. (Original post)
MineralMan Nov 2012 OP
yardwork Nov 2012 #1
MineralMan Nov 2012 #3
bettyellen Nov 2012 #79
sufrommich Nov 2012 #12
heaven05 Nov 2012 #45
snooper2 Nov 2012 #2
MineralMan Nov 2012 #5
cherokeeprogressive Nov 2012 #35
MadHound Nov 2012 #4
MineralMan Nov 2012 #8
Still Sensible Nov 2012 #6
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #15
freshwest Nov 2012 #63
enough Nov 2012 #7
MineralMan Nov 2012 #11
maddiemom Nov 2012 #67
gollygee Nov 2012 #9
MineralMan Nov 2012 #16
gollygee Nov 2012 #19
MineralMan Nov 2012 #21
gollygee Nov 2012 #22
MineralMan Nov 2012 #24
gollygee Nov 2012 #25
MineralMan Nov 2012 #32
gollygee Nov 2012 #37
Springslips Nov 2012 #55
MineralMan Nov 2012 #57
Chemisse Nov 2012 #84
bettyellen Nov 2012 #86
Chemisse Nov 2012 #89
bettyellen Nov 2012 #90
freshwest Nov 2012 #66
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #17
gollygee Nov 2012 #20
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #26
redgreenandblue Nov 2012 #10
seabeyond Nov 2012 #34
steve2470 Nov 2012 #13
MineralMan Nov 2012 #14
Mnemosyne Nov 2012 #18
MineralMan Nov 2012 #28
Mnemosyne Nov 2012 #58
Baitball Blogger Nov 2012 #23
MineralMan Nov 2012 #27
seabeyond Nov 2012 #29
MineralMan Nov 2012 #33
Lars39 Nov 2012 #30
MineralMan Nov 2012 #36
Lars39 Nov 2012 #38
MineralMan Nov 2012 #39
RomneyLies Nov 2012 #31
get the red out Nov 2012 #40
MineralMan Nov 2012 #41
Bonobo Nov 2012 #42
MineralMan Nov 2012 #43
wickerwoman Nov 2012 #59
bettyellen Nov 2012 #78
femrap Nov 2012 #44
Iggo Nov 2012 #46
femrap Nov 2012 #81
apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #69
femrap Nov 2012 #80
Iggo Nov 2012 #87
demmiblue Nov 2012 #92
Iggo Nov 2012 #94
demmiblue Nov 2012 #100
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #47
MineralMan Nov 2012 #48
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #51
MineralMan Nov 2012 #52
niyad Nov 2012 #49
MineralMan Nov 2012 #50
Chemisse Nov 2012 #93
MineralMan Nov 2012 #53
SouthernLiberal Nov 2012 #54
MineralMan Nov 2012 #56
kimbutgar Nov 2012 #60
MineralMan Nov 2012 #62
wryter2000 Nov 2012 #61
treestar Nov 2012 #64
maddiemom Nov 2012 #65
MineralMan Nov 2012 #68
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #96
tblue37 Nov 2012 #70
MineralMan Nov 2012 #71
marions ghost Nov 2012 #72
wickerwoman Nov 2012 #73
tblue37 Nov 2012 #74
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #75
obamanut2012 Nov 2012 #98
patrice Nov 2012 #76
KittyWampus Nov 2012 #77
Butterbean Nov 2012 #82
Chemisse Nov 2012 #83
unreadierLizard Nov 2012 #85
bettyellen Nov 2012 #95
unreadierLizard Nov 2012 #99
bettyellen Dec 2012 #102
unreadierLizard Dec 2012 #106
MadrasT Nov 2012 #88
AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #91
JoeyT Nov 2012 #97
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #101
Hekate Dec 2012 #103
Separation Dec 2012 #104
MineralMan Dec 2012 #105

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:55 AM

1. The many dismissive posts about rape even here on DU indicate that not all men got the message.

Unfortunately, not everybody got "the talk" about responsibility. Not everybody hung out with social groups that recognized rape and had rules against raping drunk girls.

Here on DU there are several threads that have numerous posts mocking the need for education about rape. That's not helpful.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:58 AM

3. That's true. Like most people, I encountered boys and men who

did not get that message. They were in the minority, though. And I ran in a very wide circle. Of course there is a need for education about rape. Everyone needs that education. Boys and young men need it more than anyone. I got it from my father. Everyone needs to get it from someone.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:30 PM

79. Why do you assume you know what this wide circle was up to...

It reminds me of my cousin not believing me 20 years ago that I had to clobber his friend with a cast iron skillet to stop him from ripping my clothes off.
When this guy's name came up last week- I brought it up and he believed me. Because the guys done jail time for assault since. He was dismissive years ago because he was friends with this guy. He wanted to give this guy the benefit of the doubt so bad he wrote it off as me exaggerating or some such and forgot it.
You're 4% pulled out of thin air, feels like a similar act of denial.
Wouldn't be surprised if women in the OP's life didn't share all their bad experiences if you believe it's so rare, or only with true sociopaths. It doesn't jibe at all with our reality. Seemingly nice "respected" men rape too. Their friends are always shocked and loathe to believe it happens.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:04 AM

12. The inference that young women should know the moral

upbringing of the men around them doesn't help either. It shifts the onus to the victim as surly as blaming her clothing or level of intoxication

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Response to yardwork (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:29 AM

45. that

fact is unfortunate. Not on progressive, liberal, open minded, p&q minding DU? Oh and also, the thought never entered my young mind. Never even remember it being a 'topic' amongst my peers.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:56 AM

2. I didn't get a "talk" from anybody...

I just knew it was wrong...

Where I got the message I don't know. I just know people weren't supposed to be running around the playground grabbing my dick and I wasn't supposed to run around grabbing titties.

Only message that ever stuck in my head at a young age was "Just say No" from Nancy Reagan- as a youngin but that was more scary than anything else LOL

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:00 AM

5. Yes. You were brought up to respect others.

That's the central point. I learned that lesson from my parents, too, and at a very early age. So, my father's talk probably wouldn't really have been necessary. It was still a good idea, though.

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:40 AM

35. This

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:59 AM

4. Same message I got fifteen years later,

 

I also distinctly remember that if a girl did violated while drunk, etc., her brothers, friends and family would then proceed to beat the living shit out of the violator, perhaps on multiple occasions.

And no, "eager and enthusiastic" didn't reduce a guy's chance of scoring.

The other parental lesson I got along those lines was from my mother, namely that if I didn't use protection and got some girl pregnant she would cut off my balls.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:02 AM

8. Ah, the contraception talk came later.

In that one, my father said, "Whatever you do, don't get your girlfriend pregnant while you're still in high school. That will wipe out your future." Since I was involved with a steady girlfriend, that talk was followed up with handing me a package of 12 condoms.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:00 AM

6. Yes, that was pretty much the same message I got

although instead of the "eager and enthusiastic" part, which was certainly implied, I was told in no uncertain terms the "no does not mean maybe."

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:09 AM

15. that one hits the nail on the head

no does not mean maybe. That is exactly what every body I ever dated thought it meant.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #15)


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:01 AM

7. Actually, I think that was pretty radical advice, and very well stated.

"that men had no right to have sex with anyone"

I was a girl in 9th grade in 1959, and I'm pretty sure that was not the lesson being taught to most boys at the time. No, most boys did not rape, but they surely had learned an attitude of sexual entitlement.

What an excellent clear message you got from your father!

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Response to enough (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:04 AM

11. Could be. My father was, and is, a great person.

He is a standard I hope to someday live up to.

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Response to enough (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:07 PM

67. I'm the same age as you.

In that era I saw a lot of confusion with the boys. They were always "trying," but weren't always sure whether or not they wanted to succeed with the girls they really cared for. The "good girls" who weren't prudes actually expected the guys to have had previous experience. "Giving in," if you didn't get pregnant (in those days I had to assure my doctor that I was engaged before getting birth control), might actually cause the boyfriend to wonder...It was all so crazy

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:03 AM

9. I got the talk to be careful at parties

and not drink too much because someone might take advantage of me. My dad said it was wrong but he knew it happened and didn't want me to be a victim.

If you had to be taught it was wrong to do it, then there was also an acknowledgement that it was happening. Obviously not everyone is getting the message, and we learned in this past election that there are people who consider some rape to not be legitimate, or forcible, or think some rape is "gray rape" or whatever. Those men could have used a class or lesson or something to teach them that rape is rape.

It's great that you got that lesson but that doesn't mean that young men in general knew that years ago, only that you did.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:10 AM

16. Yes. That's the other side of the equation.

Sadly, that side will always have to be taught, because there are people who simply cannot comprehend the lesson of respect. I suspect that there will always be some who do not get that lesson. They are sociopaths, plain and simple, and avoiding them is a prime directive for everyone.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:17 AM

19. This is the kind of story I hear:

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Response to gollygee (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:21 AM

21. People who participate in such things are sociopaths,

by definition. That's my opinion.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:23 AM

22. Only 4% of the population meets the definition of sociopaths

Half women, half men.

And we're talking about parties where a large percentage of the guys are doing this. It would have had to have been more than 4%. Your first definition of sociopath is correct - people who can't be taught better. But your second definition - anyone who would do this - isn't.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:29 AM

24. Stories like that one are true, and have been around since always.

The people at that party who participated in that gang rape were sociopaths, each and every one of them. The people who were not at that party didn't participate in that gang rape. In reality, the percentage of men who have ever participated in such a thing is way below 4%. I couldn't have stopped what happened at that party, because I wouldn't have been there in the first place. Those who were there at the time that happened and who either participated or did not act to stop that gang rape are, by definition, sociopaths.

I've been to countless parties in my life. At none of them did anything like that happen. Parties where gang rapes happen are a tiny percentage of parties, and people who participate in gang rapes are a tiny percentage of men. Sociopaths.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:31 AM

25. It's a minority

But I disagree with "tiny minority."

From my memory in college though, different groups (frats, sports teams, or any kind of group) have different rules. Some groups would never allow that to happen, but some would.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:37 AM

32. I have no way to measure the size of that minority, though.

My sense of it is that it is a very small minority, at least when it comes to horrors like gang rape. If you added up all the frats and all of the sports teams at any given school, the number would be a very small minority of the students at that school. And even within that group, it is still a minority that would participate in any such thing. Think about the actual numbers.

We tend to magnify the numbers in situations like this, partly because it becomes news or a story we hear. We don't hear about the rest of the people. They're not doing that. It's important to look at actual statistics in such situations. That does not minimize the horror. But it does put it in a clearer perspective.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:47 AM

37. There have been lots of studies

http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/RAPE_FACT_SHEET1.pdf

There's a table on page 2 listing a bunch of studies. Always a minority, but more than 4%.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:01 PM

55. One thing about group psychology, sociopathy, and rape that needs to be considered.

If a normal boy is part of a toxic peer group led by a sociopath he can be led into behaviors that he'd otherwise know better--not an excuse. The sociopath can have immense mind control, gas lighting, brain washing powers that can convince weaker minds, especially young people, the rightness of their toxic behaviors. A good example of how this is often done, is the scene in Glenngary Glennross where one salesman convinces another into robbing the office. Add to it the pleasure of sex and the confusion of a young developing mind and you have a recipe to turn any normal boy into a rapist.

Again this is no excuse. The boy should be prosecuted to full extent. They need to be taught how to stand by their own values; and gain the internal self esteem needed so they can easily recognize toxic groups and stay away from them.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:06 PM

57. You're right that sociopaths are sometimes leaders, and

lead people into places they would not go on their own. We have lots of evidence of that in the political arena.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:49 PM

84. That is a good point.

Many a weak-willed person has been lead astray by persuasive or charismatic sociopaths.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #84)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:55 PM

86. But the OP is fooling himself, just because he'd

Never seen much of this kind of stuff.
Didn't figure out he'd been excluded and assumes because he was made aware of a few abortions and pregnancies he'd know about most of them.
Serious case of head in the sand, leading to a conclusion that women are exaggerating.
Might as well call them hysterical, it amounts to the same thing.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #86)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:44 PM

89. Many of us would prefer to think that despicable behavior is uncommon.

I know that is my tendency (about drunken party rapes in the 1970s anyway; certainly there is no denying that rape in general was and is very common).

The OP doesn't strike me as trying to downplay women's concerns. He is sharing his perception, which, without specific data, is as good as anyone else's perception.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #89)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:56 PM

90. Easy way out. Way too common for men to think they shld give bros

The benefit of the doubt unless the woman is sporting obvious injuries.
They don't believe what they don't see- but it never occurs to men they're very rarely going to be there when acquaintance rape happens. So how would they ever have a clue? Yet they weigh in again and again, accusing women of painting men with a broad brush.

They live in state where they're doubtful anyone both the most awful sociopaths people could do such things, and this leaves the women in their lives not telling them, it was your friend or coworker.
I'm sorry they are out of the loop, but tired of hearing they know better than women what is actually happening out there.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #21)


Response to gollygee (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:12 AM

17. societal rules were stricter back then

People have less religous interference, less input from parents, less societal shame for having sex and have more freedom these days which in general is a good thing(not that parental input is bad. we could use more of that), but obviously less societal rules has at least a few drawbacks.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:18 AM

20. Back when?

My dad went to college in the late 50s, and he knew of it happening then.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:31 AM

26. this is a good topic but I'm exhausted

There are people on this board that think people are just born knowing rape is wrong and others who think that being how to respect other people has to be taught first before a person can just know that rape is wrong. This is just another one of those topics where not everybody is going to agree. I spent hours on this last night. I think I'm done with this topic for now. I think I'm going to take a break and hide these threads for now.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:03 AM

10. Cool. I always wondered what "The talk" was.

I heard about it in movies and soforth: Fathers having "The talk" with their sons. My father was patently absent in my teenage years so I never received "The talk". That said, I never raped anyone.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:40 AM

34. i am a mother. i had the talk. doesnt have to come from the father, though that is good stuff.

but, and adult that is respected and trustworthy, a kid will listen. discuss. and think.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:05 AM

13. You were quite fortunate your dad spoke to you about it.

My dad did not. However, I absorbed the message of respect from my parents for women, and that included sexual relations. I always knew forcing sex or having sex with a drunk or passed out woman was wrong. Unfortunately, I think some men on college campuses (and in other venues) need to be explicitly taught that "no" equals the final word on sex and to drop the matter, and that passed out women are not suitable candidates for sex.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:08 AM

14. I imagine there will always be some for whom there is no way

to teach that message. It's one that does get taught in schools these days, at least in most places, but it's ignored completely by some.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:14 AM

18. My daughter and I have already been educating my 11yo grandson. Thanks MM. nt

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:33 AM

28. Excellent. Your grandson is lucky! nt

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:13 PM

58. If he ever harms a woman, his mother will explode and he might not survive it! nt

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:24 AM

23. You had a pretty cool dad.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:33 AM

27. I still do. He's 88 years old, now, and so is my mother.

I'll be in California to visit them at Christmas. My wife and I moved from California to Minnesota to help her mother after her father had a stroke. She's 84, now. Two of my siblings still live in the same town as my parents, but there was no responsible sibling living near my wife's mother. So we moved here. Caring for aging parents is part of a responsibility we have, since they cared for us when we were young. That's my opinion about that.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:35 AM

29. both my boys have had that "talk" also. well before they got into a position of making their own way

they have had time to think about it, process it, and know what kind of man they want to be.

you are right on.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:38 AM

33. Good job. I knew that from previous discussions.

Teaching children how to live is the primary job of parents, or should be. Sadly, too many parents neglect it.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:36 AM

30. Curious...do you remember hearing of any rape trials

growing up? Any one in town known as a convicted rapist or some one known as a rape victim?

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:44 AM

36. Yes. The town I grew up in had just 6000 people or so.

I remember a few rape cases as I grew up there. There was one girl in my high school class who was raped by an adult. Her father killed the man. The jury did not convict him for doing that, and the family moved away. I also remember a few severe beatings that were dealt out by brothers or fathers to boys or men who violated someone. Mostly, though the kids I grew up with went through the normal pangs of adolescence, dated each other, and fooled around with sex with each other willingly. It was a small town and a small school. There were just 106 kids in my high school class. With only a few exceptions, we all graduated safely. A few girls became pregnant during high school. A few girls went off to "stay with their aunt," and a few girls had abortions. We all knew about everything that went on. Small town.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

38. Having grown up in a very similar small town

as a female, I can guarantee that there was a lot you didn't know had happened.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #38)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:03 AM

39. I'm sure you are right. The question I was answering had to

do with rape cases that had become public. Of course I didn't know everything that happened.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:36 AM

31. I did not get that talk from my father

 

I got mine from my mother. She hit the points home in a way my father never could have.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:10 AM

40. Your Father was a wise man

That is an excellent message.

As a girl in the 80's, with a very Victorian-style Mother, the message I got was that if I had sex before I got married I'd be a slut and a whore and unworthy of her continued love or even respect as a human being; which was more than a little damaging.

Your Dad sounds spot-on.

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Response to get the red out (Reply #40)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:12 AM

41. He was, and is.

The message you got from your mother was a common one in my day, too. I suppose it still is, and that's too bad.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:12 AM

42. I never got the talk. Never needed it.

My mom raised me right. To respect people and women are people.

You don't do to them what you would not have them do to you.

Period.

But yes, it was known that this was rape even by the ones that did it. In my opinion anyway.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:15 AM

43. I agree. Some people don't pay attention to what they

know is wrong. That's the foundation of sociopathy. And that's what every person, male or female, also needs to be taught, so they can avoid becoming victims. The whole education thing is a two-way street, because there will always be a certain percentage of people who consistently do what is wrong to do.

As evidence of that, I give you the Republican Party leadership.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #43)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:13 PM

59. Sociopathy is not knowing that it's wrong in the first place

except in the abstract sense of being aware that other people think it's bad/wrong and that it's likely to bring down punishment.

This is why you're mistaken when you say only sociopaths do this. As you say, lots of people are capable of empathy and knowing that something is wrong and yet they do it anyway impulsively leading to shame, self-loathing and self-medication with alcohol or drugs. Some people know it's wrong and they're led astray by the crowd they're running with. They may never do it again, but they do it do the first time. There's an example in the other thread on DU of someone who knew it was wrong and raped people anyway.

And nobody has ever said, to my knowledge, in any of these threads that it is all men or even most men, who would rape someone given the opportunity. The point is that it is way too many men (35% of college aged boys in the survey cited) and that at least some of them would benefit from education and a culture of respect for women in a way that would reduce the number of rapes. 35% of the population are not sociopaths. And if 31% were less likely to engage in borderline rape/harrassment or were more likely to intervene or to correct their peers talking about it or to report it when they heard about, then there would in fact be fewer rapes.

Likewise, no one, not even sign girl, has said that girls shouldn't be taught self-defence in addition to boys being taught boundaries. Her point is that, at the moment, the emphasis is all on teaching girls as if this is exclusively their problem.

And there has been an obvious cultural shift that indicates that more progress can be made in this area. I notice it with older men I've worked with who are very loving with their own families (and hence not sociopaths) but would go absolutely apeshit if someone said about their mother, sisters, wife or daughters what they have said about other women. This is true with some younger men as well but I think it's less common and that's a good sign that education and shifting cultural norms works. It's just we need to keep doing it. And insisting there isn't a problem because "most boys get a good talk and that's enough" or "most boys know that rape is wrong" doesn't help.

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:18 PM

78. I agree, this pulling "4% who are sociopaths" is dismissive and

Unhelpful.
It's tilting at a straw man that women are saying its a good healthy chunk of some social subsets in our culture. Anyone who partied much in college or hung out in bars while young knows its not 4%. We know these guys don't try to pull this crap around the "stand up" guys who'd step in.
I know how very common this crap was at frat parties. You always needed a reliable friend to get you out of those in one piece.

4% is a wild guess from someone with rose colored glasses and a different set of friends. And it adds nothing to the discussion here, except to negate what plenty of women here have said they experienced.
MMs experience and upbringing is far from average. Even he acknowledges his parents were exceptional while basically implying women here of exaggerating. Ridiculous premise for an OP.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)


Response to femrap (Reply #44)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:30 AM

46. Bull-fucking-shit.

"You were lucky to have a decent man for a father." Truth.

"Most do not." Bullshit.

"Most fathers encourage their sons to 'sow their wild oats.'" Bull-fucking-shit.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #46)


Response to femrap (Reply #44)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:26 PM

69. What an ugly, uncalled-for reply. Perhaps you should avail yourself of the *ignore* feature,

if the OP's postings anger you to such unreasonable replies.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #69)


Response to femrap (Reply #44)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:58 PM

87. I win.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #87)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:17 PM

92. No you didn't.

The person you are responding to obviously has some past issues.

Your response is nasty.

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #92)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:43 PM

94. She pulled a bullshit stat out of her ass and I called her on it.

Nothing nasty about it.

EDIT: I'll admit "I win" was a little much. A childish reaction to the poster's hit-and-run mini-tirade. Shouldn't've done it.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #94)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:17 PM

100. Your edit is admirable.

I don't condone her attack on fellow DUers (and I do think the hides were well warranted). However, I think that there has been a lot of discussion as of late that may have triggered her response.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:34 AM

47. My father told me

(I'm female)

"That once a man gets to a certain point he can't stop" I didn't ask for details, TMI from a father.

It did lead me to wonder if my father had raped anybody, and just didn't consider it rape. My mother most certainly a time or two. This is back in the day when it was legal to rape your spouse.

(He also said there were no 'real' men left' with himself being the exception. He's got a few problems)

Your father sounds very wise

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:37 AM

48. That old saying never was true.

There is no point past which a man "can't stop." That's just another excuse some men use.

I know this because I've readily stopped at any objection, at every point, including during intercourse. That old saying is just a lie. Sex is either completely mutual or it's an assault.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #48)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:41 AM

51. I never believed it

It's sad that he did, and does. He's old now and the toxic beliefs about masculinity he's carried around with him his entire life have damaged him beyond repair. It's very sad.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #51)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:43 AM

52. That is sad.

And very painful to hear.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:37 AM

49. as you said, most men and boys know. but I was thinking about that cretin rivard, whose father

gave him "the talk", only he said, "some girls rape easy", which he is still bending himself into pretzels trying to justify.

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Response to niyad (Reply #49)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:41 AM

50. Sociopathy generates more sociopathy.

Sad to say, but it's true. Racism breeds racism and misogyny breeds misogyny.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #50)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:25 PM

93. I think it's a little too pat to blame all rape on sociopaths

I suspect that many rapes happen in increments, psychologically speaking, and many (but not most) men are capable of it under certain circumstances (convincing themselves that she really wants it, or that he really deserves it, etc).

Guys who do not hold a strong ethic of respect for women can become raging 'sociopaths' when faced with a combination of horny youth, alcohol, and some dating foreplay.

Men who molest a woman who is passed out drunk, absent peer pressure or group norms, are more likely to be sociopaths, as well as those who attack strangers.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:53 AM

53. Another note: Sociopaths know that what they

are doing is wrong, according to society. They just don't care. The frat boys perpetrating a gang rape on an unconscious female student know that it's wrong to do that. They don't care. They are behaving as sociopaths. Rape is sociopathy, by definition.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:01 PM

54. I started first grade in 1960...

It was a Roman Catholic School. In that school, and later, I got the very clear message that all men had uncontrollable sexual urges, and that was not their fault. If a girl or woman is raped, whether she is drunk, unconscious or at gunpoint, it is ALWAYS HER FAULT.

I continued to get that message from church sources right up until I stopped listening to them in the mid 1970's.

And for anyone wondering what we were supposed to do if attacked at gunpoint... that was made pretty explicit, starting right in first grade. We were to make him murder us.

So, I'm going to say that the message is more related to the source than the time.

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Response to SouthernLiberal (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:04 PM

56. Hmm. I have no experience with Catholic schools.

My father was an atheist, so he didn't teach me stuff like you were taught in parochial school. He taught me the ethics of the society I lived in, free of religious dogma. He also modeled them on a daily basis.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:29 PM

60. My husband was told at a young age no means no.

I remember my male cousins getting the same message from our family members no means no. This she wants it even if she says no is crap. It is an excuse for some horny guy to get his way. I remember having guys trying to force themselves on me as a young single woman and except for one time they backed off. The one that didn't got it the next day by a bunch of people because I told all who would listen he forced himself on me against my will. He was kind of shunned after that.

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Response to kimbutgar (Reply #60)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:49 PM

62. Trying to force oneself on another is wrong, too.

It shouldn't happen, and women should never have to deal with any hint of force at all. Women can and do communicate about what they want and do not want, and men can hear that. I can't remember any time when the messages weren't clear and obvious. I've never understood why some men believe they have to coerce women in any way when it comes to sex. That's just stupid and bullheaded.

Even as an awkward young teenager, I remember asking, "Would it be OK if I...?" I didn't ask that question unless I was pretty darned sure whatever it was would be OK, and usually it was. Sometimes, I didn't even have a chance to ask. But, if the answer was anything other than "of course," or "sure," whatever it was I was asking about simply didn't happen. "I don't know" or "I'm uncomfortable about that" was the same as "No."

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:32 PM

61. Bless your father

That's how to be a real man.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:19 PM

64. You had a good father

Some would not have.

One thing I remember, in high school in the late 70s - we had a policeman come to talk to us at an assembly. Someone asked him about going on a date, and he told us that going on a date with a person did not function as consent to sex with that individual. But someone even asking the question and being unclear on that means there was a lot of ignorance then. More than now probably, but we have Todd Akin to show us that weird superstitions and medieval views are still out there in some places.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:49 PM

65. I often envy my daughter's generation where young women can have sexual

experiences without being "sluts." In my teenage years in the late fifties until mid sixties, girls were on a very short leash and were not educated about their own sexual urges, despite all the films on physical maturation. There was this impression that good girls needed to draw the line and hold back in a relationship. I f you had a responsible boyfriend, he'd marry you if you got pregnant. Girls who avoided pregnancy but had had sex were tramps. Experiences past high school taught most girls what a "crock" that was. The worst part was how much the boys of that era bought the line. Long story short: guys were always trying, but if they really cared for you, didn't really know if they wanted you to "give in" or not. Afterwards they might lose respect...or maybe not.

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Response to maddiemom (Reply #65)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:21 PM

68. Yes. We're of about the same age.

It was an interesting time in the late 50s and early 60s. No birth control pills, and where I grew up, you had to be 21 to buy condoms, which were sold "for the prevention of disease only." And still, adolescents were actively experimenting with their own sexuality, both boys and girls.

You're right that parents weren't teaching much about actual sexuality, although a lot of kids new the basic facts of reproduction, one way or another. Peer education was very common, and some kids had accurate information to share. So, kids were learning about their sexuality on their own, and often together. It was a time of couples "going steady" during the high school years, at least in small town California where I grew up. It was common for high school kids to form relationships that lasted for a year or two, or sometimes even longer. My sister and her husband "went steady" from my sister's freshman year, for example, and married at ages of 19 and 20. My brother-in-law was in my class. They're still together, and have a great family. I had a steady girlfriend for a bit over two years, until I went off to college and the relationship gradually disintegrated. There were tons of similar stories.

The bottom line is that if a couple had a steady relationship for a year or more, the likelihood that they were engaging in serious sexual activity approached 100%. My sister and her boyfriend never moved on to actual intercourse until later, but my girlfriend and I did, after about 18 months. Some couples did and some didn't. Either way, the relationships involved a thorough exploration of sexuality over a long period of time. In the years since then, there have been many long continued friendships, and contemporary and later conversations with other friends from that time indicate that about half of the kids in long relationships were having intercourse.

We learned about our sexuality through a long, slow process of exploring it with each other. For the couples who did have intercourse, contraceptive information was known through exchanges between peers. Most guys, like me, knew someone who was old enough to buy condoms. In some cases a parent supplied condoms. They were commonly passed around. In a few cases, less effective contraceptive practices were used.

Looking back at my high school yearbook from my senior year, I can identify at least 25% of my class of 106 who were in relationships that lasted over a year. The number was probably about 30%, though, since I didn't know everyone well enough to know what relationships they were in. What that means is that at least 25% of my high school class was almost certainly engaged in fairly extensive sexual behavior. And yet, I know of only 6 pregnancies from my own class. What I think that means is that knowledge of contraception was more extensive than many adults thought at the time.

Talking to other classmates in the past several years, almost 50 years later, what I'm saying has been pretty well confirmed. We're all older now, and discussing what we never discussed at the time is pretty common. There are still at least 8 couples in my class from that time period who are still together, or who remained a couple until the death of one of them.

A few years later, the birth control pill changed contraceptive practices, but I wonder if it really changed the percentage of sexually active high-schoolers. I have no data on that. I do know, though, that nobody thought of any of the girls in those long relationships as sluts.

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Response to maddiemom (Reply #65)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:38 PM

96. It hasn't gone away.

Look at what happened to Amanda Todd, for example.

I wore that "slut" label as a teen in the 80s.

It's still around. We're moving away from it, slowly, but there's a lot of antiquated ideas about women's sexuality still hanging about.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:46 PM

70. Remember that group of popular high school boys some years ago who named themselves the

something-or-other "Posse," based on their devotion to some basketball team? They competed among themselves to see who could rack up the most "scores," and they were not at all delicate about scoring. They would apply any amount of pressure that seemed necessary--up to and including force--to "score."

When their case was publicized they ended up getting flown all over the country to appear on talk shows. As they were introduced, they would strut out, waving, smirking, and generally acting as though they were sports heroes acknowledging their worshipful fans. In a society where infamy and fame are typically conflated, they experienced no remorse, and as far as I know, they suffered no penalty. Oh, sure, some people said "mean" things about them in op-ed pieces or on air, but many others either offered excuses for them or actually justified their behavior. Some--especially other young men--lionized them.

One boy's father, when interviewed, actually expressed pride in his son's virility! His boy was such a manly man!

This is the social milieu our kids grow up in. Yes, they do get some appropriate messages about how bad rape is, but those messages are still not as pervasive or as powerful as the messages they receive that excuse, justify, or even come right out and celebrate the teenager or man who pressures( or even forces) a woman to have sex.

With so many perverse messages coming from so many sources, boys (and girls, too, for their own protection!) do need to be told--explicitly, forcefully, and repeatedly--what rape is and that it is always, always, always both criminal and evil. We simply cannot count on any innate awareness of the wrongness of the act. I wish we could, but too many people seem not to have that innate awareness, or else to not understand precisely which acts are rape, whether or not people have received conflicting messages about those acts suggesting that they are somehow less culpable than "legitimate" or "forcible" rape.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:00 PM

71. I don't actually remember that, but it's not surprising.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:26 PM

72. I couldnt agree more that

teenagers--male and female--need to be told that rape is criminal and evil.

I don't think rapists are born--they're made, encouraged by a rape culture. I don't think most men are naturally prone to rape--I think they're often confused as to where the line is.

The fact that the term "legitimate rape" has even come up like it has, tells us that this is a serious problem that needs attention.

Rape becomes more accepted as disrespect for women in general grows. Raising boys differently is very hard in this culture.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:13 PM

73. The Spur Posse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spur_Posse

I remember them and thank you for giving an excellent example. That was 1993 btw, not 1963.

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #73)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:16 PM

74. Yes, "Spur Posse." I don't know why I couldn't come up

with the name. Probably I blocked it out of sheer revulsion.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:58 PM

75. Getting it out of movies and other mainstream media

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:58 PM

98. Not Oprah

She doesn't pay for interviews, nor give "presents."

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:06 PM

76. In any situation in which there is an imbalance in power, the greater the imbalance, the greater the

responsibility of the stronger faction for what happens, right or wrong, correct or mistaken, that responsibility absolutely lies with wherever most of the power is and being "mistaken" DOES NOT absolve one of the responsibility for what happens. If you are in a power position and you can't accept that responsibility for consequences, mistaken or otherwise, then you need to surrender your power position.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:09 PM

77. Considering the statistics on rape... maybe not most but many boys did and do rape.

Because it's not just about getting a message from your parents.

There are the messages that our society and culture send.

many parents give messages about not doing drugs... do kids listen to that?

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:06 PM

82. I know maybe 4 women who weren't raped or sexually molested. Maybe 4.

My mother and my sister are not counted among them, either. I knew about girls being raped and assaulted in high school, and when I got to college, the women and their stories just came out of the woodwork. Stories of girls being raped with curling irons, of being raped while passed out, of being snatched on cruise ships and raped while they were young tweens, of being molested by their own fathers who were high at the time. My own family line is the product of rape. Apparently, my great great great great great (something like that) grandmother was raped long ago and conceived what would later become my maternal grandfather's lineage.

I can think of only one close friend that I know for sure was never touched (although a grown man exposed himself to her when she was a child), and one more that I *think* has never been molested. That's it. Every. single. one. of my close friends has either been raped or molested. It's that pervasive.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:42 PM

83. What a great way to phrase it.

Your father was a wise man.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:53 PM

85. I never had "the talk"

I figured out sex on my own by reading about it.

And I'm in college - I haven't raped anyone or even thought about it.

Not all men are mouthbreathing sex-crazed cavemen who go "ung ung me man", contrary to popular belief.

As an aside; being off my anti-anxiety meds sucks. I take all these "ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS/UNINFORMED/GUILTY" posts personally.

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #85)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:20 PM

95. There aren't ANY "all men rape" posts - just a bunch of men

With reading comprehension problems and knee jerk reactions.
And I'm kind of fed up with that BS.
Really dudes, get over yourselves.

Hope you feel better soon!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #95)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:17 PM

99. I dunno

I guess when these threads pop up almost every single day and people fire off comments that make it sound like they're broad brushing 50% of the world's population:

Rape is a horrible thing. I think everyone, man or woman, on this forum agrees with that.

I remember reading a thread where posters say that all men are "potential rapists" and need to be monitored; how dare they? I guess we can say all women are "potential gold-diggers", then, since it's historically women who marry older men for their money?

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:35 AM

102. Women have explained in detail here that at times

And certain places- dark lonely places they unfortunately need to look upon all strange men that way. They're not doing anything at all except being alert aware and careful.
I've seen men here be offended by this. Or twist it into what you said.

Seriously, you can't frigging win with some people. We've only been asking men not to joke along in misogynist way or maybe give us the heads up if you sense any of your friends might have issues you're aware of.
Men here are reading a lot of extraneous nonsense into this. Claiming we hate and fear all of them. It's crap. Total lies.
Sorry.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #102)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:41 AM

106. I don't know about anyone else

but if any of my friends turn out to be rapists, I'll be the first to haul their ass into the precinct myself.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:29 PM

88. Glad you had this experience.

Many of the men I've known think "no" means "verbally abuse and emotionally manipulate the shit out of her until she says yes".

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:04 PM

91. Major kudos to your pop, MM!

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:56 PM

97. K&R n/t

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:37 PM

101. Not all young men

you were just lucky. You're right, most boys don't rape, but some DO and that's the problem.

You got a lecture on respect from your father. When I was 14 and 15, I had a couple of friend's fathers hitting on me. I'm sure I don't need to emphasize that the message their sons got was a little different than yours. These people seem to have a real talent for finding each other; then you had a group of guys that all believed the same thing and reinforced that belief in each other. And in the scheme of things (my high school had about 2000 students when I attended) sure, it was a very small group but one is too many and two is downright dangerous. Dismissing the idea of "peer pressure" as ridiculous out of hand, as several people did in the original thread, is a mistake for that very reason; having a peer group that all believe in the same ideas does create the illusion that the ideas are correct or acceptable. To a teenager, and even to a lot of adults, that's a potent force. How to break that cycle is a discussion that definitely needs to be had, and it's hard to do if we won't admit the problem even exists.

I suspect the author of the OP may have been trolling, but either way it's a bad idea to dismiss what he said and insist that every boy or man "just knows" the way most here did. No, they don't ALL just know, because they weren't all brought up the way you were or most of the men here were, and from that small percentage that weren't come our rapists. I think if we can get past the shock and anger that the other post generated, there's some important information in there and it would be a good idea to see what can be done with it.

Just my 2 cents. I'm glad you had a good father, and that the rest of the men here did as well. Not everyone does.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:37 AM

103. Thanks for that, MM.

You and your Dad are good men -- I love the way he put it.

Hekate

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:50 AM

104. Growing up

In my teen years there were 3 or 4 situations when I could have taken advantage of a girl that was blitzed. Never once did it enter my mind, as a matter of fact I felt it was my duty to make sure nothing happened to them.

The guys I hung out with always gave me shit for not getting some. This confirmed to me that I was right in standing guard throughout the night.

Unfortunately my wife was not so lucky. She hadnt even been drinking when it happened to her. She was asleep in her room when she woke up to one of her brothers friends on top of her who was hammered. Her brother came in when he heard her screaming for help. He didn't get in there in time as he had to break the door down.

This is not something that goes away. She still has issues and will probably until the day she dies. It's affected our relations on ocassion, but we work through them. It wasn't her fault then, and the issues she still has isn't her fault now.

Hopefully I don't get the ban hammer for saying this but if I ever catch somebody in the act, it will not end well for that person. They won't have the opportunity to regret being born.

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Response to Separation (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:22 AM

105. Yes. Like most people, I went to a lot of parties in college.

I even hosted some. Inevitably, there were always people who consumed too much alcohol and needed to sleep it off. Nobody ever got sexually molested at any of the parties I attended or hosted. Instead, someone would get the person to a comfortable place, cover him or her up with a blanket, and put an empty trashcan nearby for the inevitable upheaval.

Maybe I just ran with a different crowd, but that was the standard practice in my crowd for people who drank too much and were "passed out."

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