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Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:52 AM

Meet the Predators (men need to learn how to recognize and fight rape culture)

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:04 AM - Edit history (3)

This is really long but it is really worth reading the whole thing. Four paragraphs does not do it justice.

This blog post is dealing with the issues raised by two large-scale studies which show that an estimated 4-8% of men are committing the majority of rapes. They rape again and again, and most of them will never be caught.

I don't think a 'How Not to Rape' class would work.

I think a 'How to Recognize and Fight Rape Culture' class could do wonders.

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

...

Change the culture. To rape again and again, these men need silence. They need to know that the right combination of factors —alcohol and sex shame, mostly —will keep their victims quiet. Otherwise, they would be identified earlier and have a harder time finding victims. The women in your life need to be able to talk frankly about sexual assault. They need to be able to tell you, and they need to know that they can tell you, and not be stonewalled, denied, blamed or judged.

Listen. The men in your lives will tell you what they do. As long as the R word doesn’t get attached, rapists do self-report. The guy who says he sees a woman too drunk to know where she is as an opportunity is not joking. He’s telling you how he sees it. The guy who says, “bros before hos”, is asking you to make a pact.

...

Change the culture. We are not going to pull six or ten or twelve million men out of the U.S. population over any short period, so if we are going to put a dent in the prevalence of rape, we need to change the environment that the rapist operates in. Choose not to be part of a rape-supportive environment. Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk.

...

The rapists can’t be your friends, and if you are loyal to them even when faced with the evidence of what they do, you are complicit.

...


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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:07 AM

1. one self kick

I think this blog post MORE than deserves it.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:25 AM

2. Well worth the read

The stereotypical rape incident characterized by a man violently attacking a stranger was not reported by any of the respondents.

No of course not. Bullies, attackers, abusers, rapists are cowards

Also fascinating that several in the studies would admit to rape, so long as the word 'rape' wasn't used in the questioning

DURec

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:12 AM

3. Yes, they will self-report. They will not use the word rape, but they will.

This man's friend did, and he did the right thing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1905701

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:25 AM

4. Powerful, informative post! Highly recommend this one

(sorry Redqueen that probably means it will drop like a stone.... )

There are so, so many excellent points.

Here's another from the article:

"Finally, in an entirely unsurprising finding, rapists who admitted assaulting strangers – ever – were less than a quarter of the rapist population. More than 90% targeted acquaintances some of the time, and about 75% said they only targeted acquaintances. Only 7% of all the self-reported rapists reported targeting only strangers. And, in fact, there was zero overlap between the men who said they targeted starangers, and those who used only force."

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:55 AM

7. It really is.

It was so hard to pick which parts to share.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:34 AM

5. acceptance=complicity

Good Men should learn to recognize these sorts of miscreants; you meet them all the time- they are the guys that embarrass you by belittling women that refuse to show interest in them as a sexually interesting man. It might be your buddy, or it might be your uncle- but we still owe it to ourselves and the women in our lives to let these types of men know that real men do not tolerate them and thier childish sexually demeaning attitude towards women.
These are the guys that talk and act is if women are sexual objects- not thinking, intelligent individuals with a legitimate right to be treated equally. I have met plenty of guys that see drunken or otherwise messed-up women as fair sexual game- even when they are unconcious! Many men are familiar with guys that see powerful women as a threat to thier masculinity, so they make remarks and jokes about the individual women that suggest they are only important because of thier vagina, or worse; the old ploy of demeaning them by claiming that the man refused past sexual entreaties from the woman.
Example: "I could have done that lawyer bitch, but I wouldn't stick my dick in her for money!"

If good men punish these characters by withdrawing all forms of friendship and charity to these individuals, we would see a lowering of rape incidents and a marked increase in our collective liberties and women's saftey.
I try to do my part as much as possible by redirecting older family members towards other facts while using moral appeals that undermine the claims of masculinity from men that give tacit approval for these behaviors by saying nothing to discourage the misogonistic attacker.
Whether you believe there is a rape culture or not makes no difference to the truth- the culture of rape is alive and well amongst closed groups of angry men, and the sooner we all become aware of it, the sooner we can stop it.

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:01 PM

16. Thanks.

It is the tacit approval which the author of this piece seemed to be targeting.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:38 AM

6. It's so good to have it broken down like this

So many men react to the word rape as though they are being accused; no we want to identify and stop rapists. We want the help of male allies to stop it.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:09 PM

9. count me in

As a chilhood victim of rape I can relate to the very real need to bring these issues to public light. There are a lot of men that are good people that have been told this has nothing to do with rape and everything to do with "Libruls takin' your liberties"- we need to dispel this myth by using reason and moral clarity, not appeals for emotive blame games.
Remember; rapists are sexual deviants and moral cowards- we cannot appeal to thier humanity as they have none. To fix this social illness we must first destroy the sources of the disease.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:05 PM

8. It is individuals, not 'culture'.

 


Society is about being civil toward one-another. There are men (and yes, women) for whom civil constraints are useless.

Once we start looking for scapegoats that 'create rapists', we're no better than the prohibitionists or book-burners that believed all evil came from some device.

There is no more a 'rape culture' than there is a 'human culture'. The only question is whether we are willing to deal with human nature without impinging on human culture.


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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:40 PM

13. I could say 'the ubiquitous aspects of human culture which enable rapists and the epidemic of

sexual violence' but that's a bit wordy.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:56 PM

25. Rape is illegal.

 



I'm curious which parts of human culture you wish to do away with in order to solve this epidemic?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:26 PM

28. Based on first hand experience- half the Fraternities at Rutgers

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:28 AM

54. You cannot be serious



The blog posted above TELLS you quite plainly what you need to do if you TRULY give a damn.

If you're a man who views women as equals, as more than the sum of their body parts, you go out into the world and into your circle of family and friends and you STOP TOLERATING, ENCOURAGING and ACCEPTING those men who talk and joke about women in demeaning ways. You do this for the women in your life whom you love. You do this to make your society a better, safer place to live for all of us.

You call out men on their ugly statements about women. You confront men who show proclivities of sexually abusing women. You LISTEN when women speak of their experiences without getting defensive and hateful yourself because THE TRUTH HURTS.

Is that so frickin' hard to understand? Really? Of course, I realize that "manly men" think the above behaviors are going to cost them friendship and their social standing, but who the hell wants to be freinds with guys who treat women like shit?

I'm a female, and I can't stand being around women who treat men like crap. I'll lose my "social standing" and friendship rather than be around that toxic behavior, yet many men seem to be cowards and lose their ethics and concern for their sisters, mothers, daughters, when their favorite drunk misogynist buddy starts bloviating.

I've never seen as many obtuse males as I've seen in the rape apology threads. What in the hell happened that so many never appeared to have evolved? Seriously, I hope none of them have drivers licenses. If they can't control their penises without doing impulsive harm to others, they damn sure don't need to be in control of thousands of pounds of metal.






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:47 AM

57. *BRAVO*

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:55 AM

59. Part of me is so disgusted with these posts

But the other part is glad the misogynists are revealing themselves.

They like to play at being oh so smart, but they just come off looking like clueless idiots who just got let out of their cages for the day...


AAAAAAARGH!!!!!


Thanks for your compliment Edit to add; I loved your response as well. I lol'd




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:59 AM

60. It's about their ego.... So much so they need to deny the reality and the import

Of what women here are saying. So they play word games and pretend they live in a world where men are prefect, so there's nothing for them to do or think or.... You'd think, discuss. But here they are, talking about their sadness about being misunderstood.
They are tripping of they think we believe that BS. Ha ha.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:15 AM

62. See my post to your "perfect" friend below ;)



You would think that the defensive, angry men here would see this:

WE ARE ASKING FOR YOUR HELP. If we thought you guys were all creeps, why would we ask you to help us?

The blog is basically hoping that GOOD men will do the RIGHT thing. If there were no good men to ask, there wouldn't be the above blog.

That is showing confidence that men can become more aware and help their sisters. Guess that aspect is lost on all the guys who live to be outraged....


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:21 AM

63. Perfect reply- this knee jerk defensive stuff has got to go.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:20 AM

180. Partly true. 92-96% of men are heavily invested in the fact that they're not rapists.

Men are fundamentally insulted by concepts like "the rape culture" in which everyone all men are responsible for the behavior of the 4% of men who they vigorously prosecute.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #180)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:32 AM

187. i explained and ee discussed with my 15 and 17 yr old sons, and hubby.

Oldest for a moment was a little put off. Youngest understood immediately. Hubby of course knows what we are talking about.

Once explained to oldest, he got it. Saw it was. Ot accusatory to him. A couple minutes.

It is not hard.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #180)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:57 AM

214. so much so, they absolutely refuse to listen or to help women out, I know. So sad their egos get the

best of them to the extent where they refuse to allow any discourse to take place. Some can get kind of bossy and disruptive when we don't focus on their needs. It's pretty selfish, actually.






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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #180)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:14 PM

217. Nearly 100% of women fear being raped.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:52 AM

191. Yep...

There are plenty on DU...

Hell...they even have a group.

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Response to trumad (Reply #191)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:12 AM

195. Oh yeah,

I accidentally followed a post in there from the greatest page once.

It was worse than the gungeon with the chest thumping and male poutrage.

I try to stay out of these gender wars, because I don't view myself as a 'gender" but as a human being, and I love so many male DUers for their great intellects, senses of humor and ability to have a discussion without making it all about them.

So it's hard to face when you find the creeps on here. It really is.










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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #195)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:30 AM

199. i do not define myself as a gender and love so many of them men on du.... and i dont stay out of the

gender wars, lol

hey.... i have perused your posts thru out this thread. i LOVE them. i love hearing about your kids. four boys, whoosh (or was it five? lol, lots) and one daughter. that is grand in so many ways. but i love how you talk about you kids and sounds absolutely you raised them as you are. you raised them as people, not gender. best gift to the kids, society and make life a hell of a lot easier.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #199)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:43 AM

206. They are the joy of my life

And they are all good peeps. It helps that I was more strident back then - I've calmed down a lot - but I told them if they ever mistreated a partner I'd be the first person in line to kick their asses.

And I told them to never have sex with anyone whom they didn't consider a great parent for their possible children ( I allowed that I would be fine if they were not hetero, but if they had hetero sex, a baby was always a distinct possibility )


( Mother boast time: My oldest just passed the bar exam. At Thankgiving, I teased him about how he's so smart he must have made 100%

He's real self-effacing so he rarely lauds himself, but he smiled and admitted that his Constitutional Law essay was flagged as an example of a perfect essay. Rare for him to brag so I was thrilled! )

You are a tireless warrior. I lurk ( on dialup still so I don't always have the speed to join in ) and I applaud your many posts and 99% of the time I agree with you. You are a great mom and your sons will be an asset to this nasty old world just as you are an asset to this community of the DU







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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #206)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:52 AM

210. sigh.... lol,

my son is stepping into college and we are having a blast looking at the different universities. he is getting calls from recruiters. and he wants to go into business law. so, i feel your oldest son, and your joy in him and his in his accomplishment. that is a blast and a fun story. i love. i love hearing all the good and happy, and there is so much out there.

and thank you. for your post.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #210)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:56 AM

212. good luck to your boy

And you know you're gonna cry when he heads out for school lol!






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:06 AM

94. I agree with everything you said, especially this part:

I'm a female, and I can't stand being around women who treat men like crap. I'll lose my "social standing" and friendship rather than be around that toxic behavior


Men should treat women with respect, fairness and dignity and the other way also. Thank you for standing up for equality, truly. I teach my son to be a feminist and I do my best to be a feminist. All my friends are women.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:40 AM

168. Thank you steve2470

We all need to help each other make a better world.

How that can be an insult - to be asked to help - I cannot fathom, but thanks for understanding.

My sons and daughter were all taught from an early age that no means no, and I had many, many discussions about sexual ethics and how to stay safe and for the boys - how to protect the girls and women in their lives and how NOT to join in on demeaning humour. Now, we have sick senses of humor, I admit, but when it comes to relationships, my kids have always made me very proud of the way they have conducted themselves.

All kids are not taught those ethics, and when men are aware and help mold these young men into better partners and human beings it is one of the greatest gifts they can give our world.

I am proud to say my sons have defended women on a few occasions, even one who was about to get date-raped at a party. They are almost more hardcore than me when it comes to predators. And that's saying a lot!

We have a lot more to do as a society, and I thank YOU for being part of the solution.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:58 PM

250. It's like not tolerating racism

Would you be friends with someone who was always making racist remarks and who thought that beating up people of a different race was "fun"?

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #250)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:09 PM

251. Yes, and chances are most men on DU do not

engage in demeaning violent talk about women

I can think of a few here who might, but I have no proof.

Nevertheless, most guys here don't do that sort of thing, and this blog is not suggesting they do. But this is a more enlightened group than most, and it never hurts for any of to be reminded that whenever and wherever we hear someone joke about raping anyone, we should stand up to the jerks; they are telling us something, and we need to tell them something clear and direct: your rape jokes are sick and not funny in the least.

How anyone can think that is too much of a burden to be reminded about, I cannot understand.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #54)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:02 AM

256. I am serious. Rape is illegal.

 


I have friends who joke about murder. I laugh and joke with them. None of my friends joke about rape, because if they do, they are not my friends. When some of my friends talk seriously about 'rape fantasies', I listen, but I do not judge their own acknowledgement of their human nature. Here's the fun part where you assume that ANY of those friends were men.

Your ignorance of who and what I am, your sanctimonious finger-pointing, and your insulting suggestion that I somehow tolerate rape, rape jokes or suggestions tells me only about you, and no one anything about me.

I get that there are things that should not be made light of. I can't protect anyone, much less all women from thought crimes.

So I'll try the question again: 'What part of human culture must we do away with to prevent rape?"

While thinking it over, try and realize that we're still talking about symptoms, not causes.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:40 PM

235. If the state can convince a jury. nt

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:56 AM

143. Actually it is "culture" because acceptable sexism and "rights of women" or lack there of...

play a direct role in how women are mistreated in a society. There were many advertisements during the 50 showing men beating on women. That being propagated as acceptable behaviour can easily be tied to what men deemed were the rights of men and what they were permitted to TAKE from a woman. This is why it was not until the 80s----women who were married were believed NOT to be raped by their husbands.

Culture does play a role. I consider the relationship of our society between Americans vs. The Other can also be easily deemed to hazing and bullying that is a natural part of course in our society----and that is also tied with rape. Where the victim is looked at. It is not an individual thing---it is very much a cultural thing with individual's who act out and people are shocked by the actions.

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Response to vaberella (Reply #143)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:00 AM

270. So you're using examples from decades in the past to describe the present?

 


That's not terribly compelling or honest.

Also, it does nothing to challenge my point that culture arises from nature. We've tempered that nature (and culture) with reason so that we know right from wrong. It's happened with stunning rapidity at that, given the millions of years over which the 'nature' part was developed. There is a ways to go on other issues, but rape has long since been labelled 'terribly wrong'.

Currently, we do not have a culture that tells anyone 'rape is okay'. There is no one in our culture that believes it is 'acceptable'. The closest we get to that are people who guardedly joke or fantasize about it among those they do not feel will judge them for it. That's not 'culture', that's 'hiding in the shadows'.

I've had three friends over the years who have described rape fantasies to me. They stayed friends. How would you suggest I deal with them. Here's the funny part where you prove your sexist attitude and assume they were men. Surprise me.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:40 PM

234. individuals are constructed by their culture.

They internalize cultural norms to be individuals. No exists in a vacuum.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #234)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:11 AM

257. When the evolution is literally millions of times older than culture,

 


It's not a tough call.

The culture that we've created comes from our drives. One of those drives involves procreation by whatever means works. We mitigate that drive through reason and empathy, and find outlets we devised in our culture to deal with them, if not constructively then without causing harm.

If you were correct, then we could indeed excise just the right bits of our culture and 'poof', the drives would vanish.

But no, it's exactly the reverse of that.

We have to teach people to look at their drives and urges and find ways to deal with them rather than shut down the venues through which they might be mitigated or channeled. That is the key. The culture might change a little as people mature, but it will still reflect our drives, fears, and aspirations.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #257)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:04 PM

258. pretty much.

to the extent that we are individuals, our cultural norms construct our individuality.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #258)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:27 PM

259. I get that it can be self-reinforcing,

 

but in this case, there is no question of which sprang from what.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #259)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:53 PM

264. Well, yeah, the evolution of humanity...

...is a necessary precondition for any aspect of humanity.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:40 PM

262. You didn't read the article

Nobody is arguing that culture "creates rapists". They're arguing that culture allows them to rape with a relatively low probability of facing any consequences, legal or otherwise.

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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #262)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:53 PM

266. That's six of one,

 

and a half-dozen of the other.

Our 'culture' also leads us to presume the accused rapists are guilty before proven anything at all. Our 'culture', for as much as it ignores the complaints of rape also pursues them rabidly and destructively. Our 'culture' lets women get away with murder if they claim self-defense, but doesn't care much at all if she's in an abusive relationship.

I don't have to read the article to understand the words in the OP.

Our culture is too complex to reduce this particular issue to 'probability'. In different circumstances, one man might 'get away' with committing rape while another spends a decade in jail because of false accusations. Men and women, people victimize each-other every day. Neither gender is more or less evil than the other. I believe in equality like that... and I've seen it play out.

My point is my point: 'Culture' is born out of human evolutionary nature no matter how we look at it. It came from our struggle to survive, evolve, and make sense of the whole damn thing. I think at some level we recognize that no one holds exclusive rights to victimhood.

As for your statement: "Nobody is arguing that culture "creates rapists". ", saying that 'allowing' rapists rather than 'creating' them is pretty much an admission of nature being the overriding motive.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #266)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:00 PM

267. Nature is the overriding motive

The fact that some people get their jollies from non-consensual sex is a fact of nature. However, human beings are also given free will to control their impulses and not act on them.

So if culture is telling people who get their jollies that way, that drugging a girl's drink and sleeping with her is no big deal and it's not "real rape", why would they bother to exercise that self control?


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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #267)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:47 AM

268. Our culture says otherwise.

 


The only places our culture allows for it is in fantasy, and even then it is treated as 'wrong'.

What part of our culture treats such behaviors as 'acceptable'?

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:17 PM

10. Great post!

I've walked away from many people like the ones described there and have shunned them. And I've told them why.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:46 PM

18. If everyone would do that

It would make a big difference.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:25 PM

11. Excellent article, and an excellent post!

Thank you so much for posting this.

I hope everyone at DU gets a chance to see this.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:13 PM

19. Me too...

I imagine the people who have me on ignore wouldn't be responsive to it anyway, so...

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:30 PM

12. Excellent post. This needs to be on the front page.

K and R

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:04 PM

21. Thanks.

I hope a lot of people read it. He did a great job of spelling it out.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:52 PM

14. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, redqueen.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:18 PM

15. Very important piece

Especially for men who don't rape... and want to know what they can do to help the big picture. "We’re the ones who are not doing our jobs."

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:37 PM

17. Actually...

"bros before hoes" is a slang statement indicating that one bro should not ditch another bro over a woman. Unfortunate use of the word "hoe" but i've never taken this to mean "hey man, i'm going to rape this chick, don't say anything...k?"


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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:16 PM

20. Kicked n/t

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:29 PM

22. "The rapists can’t be your friends, and..." That is where this runs off the tracks.


I no "bros before hos" types must exist. I imagine I have even met some in the past 50 years. But I wouldn't know because these guys are slimy disgusting pigs whom I reject as friends long before we get to the point where I would find out. I'm a guy who has befriended ex-burglars, but I wouldn't hang out with the kind of shits you're talking about here.

These vile pieces of excrement are essentially segregated. We don't like them. They think we're {I-don't-care-what-they-think-of-us}. So if you're asking people to not be friends with these guys ... you're too late. We are already not friends with them. They are only friends with each other.

And 4-8% means they can keep to themselves and still have plenty of company. They don't miss us. They don't need us.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:00 PM

23. Thank you so much for posting this

I have become disillusioned by so many of the "rape" OPs and even more disillusioned by many of the responses.

To those idiots: Rape is rape ... there is no differentiation between what the rapist thinks is "legitimate" rape and what they {the rapist} did .... rape is rape.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:22 PM

24. Good read.

K&R

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:10 PM

26. Rec. Good article


I wonder if these points are used in awareness/prevention classes, e.g. on campus or in the military.
Does anyone have info on this?

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:23 PM

27. Sorry, but most men have literally ZERO to do with this "rape culture" of which the author speaks

Most men don't sit around chatting about how a drunken lady represents a viable "target" of some sort. Most men don't talk about "bros before hos" as some reference to "help me keep this rape on the QT," but instead as "let's not argue over this person" with respect to who she likes or if some unrequited love exists in the circle. And thankfully I've never heard a single man tell me a "rape joke," nor have I ever heard a "woman-hating" joke. I've heard jokes with references to stereotypes about men and women, but I've never heard a joke which betrayed hatred ... for that would no longer be a joke, instead a statement of hate.

The author presumes that all or at least most men are somehow enablers of rapists. We're not. If I hypothetically discovered that my best friend had raped a woman the only delay time from time of discovery to time of call to 911 would be the amount of time it took to remove my phone from my pocket and dial the numbers. Similarly, if I discovered that a friend of mine were denying women job advancements or hiring them I would report that to the EOC and Labor Board.

In short, we're not all the same. We dislike being stereotyped just as much as women dislike it; just as much as any group dislikes being told that THEY bear some responsibility or complicity for what a distinct minority of their group do. I've never raped or otherwise assailed any woman, just as I wouldn't support or in any way condone a friend or colleague who did. We don't need a lecture about how to act and what or what not to support. The vast majority of us already know very well how to conduct ourselves, thank you.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:33 PM

29. If you're in some sort of ivory tower where you e not been exposed to this

Good for you, carry on and know it doesn't apply to you.
But don't you dare extrapolate that your narrow existence has anything to do with the real life concerns of many women. Get your fucking bruised ego out of the equation. If it's not about you, it ain't.
There are plenty of pockets in America that need a reformation of their attitudes towards women. We have seen them even if you'd like to deny their existence.
So, don't you dare propose to tell us our concerns aren't valid, and require no action.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:55 PM

30. haha speaking of bruised egos and what not, might wanna reread your frothing response

Look, the point is that this article says that men need to learn how to combat a rape culture which assumes 2 things: 1, that there is a rape culture, and 2, that men - the descriptor used by the author - don't collectively know about it or how to deal with it. Both are wrong.

Rape is a crime punishable in every state of the country. Rightfully so, although I'd suggest that the sentences for it are often far too light. But that a portion of the male population commits rape doesn't mean that we all do, nor does it suggest that we endorse or condone it. We don't, and most of us are quite pleased when an offender gets a lengthy prison sentence (when and where that happens).

What folks like you do is to condone stereotypes when and where the outcomes don't affect you, but then complain to high heaven if someone were to use a stereotype against you. I don't support stereotypes in any situation, be they directly offensive to me or otherwise. Make no mistake, an article stating that men as a group are both part of a culture of rape AND are too stupid to realize it is every bit as offensive as any hit piece written about women. But what you suggest is that I simply ignore being stereotyped, as I suppose women should just ignore when men write stereotypical garbage about them, right? Wrong. No one should support a stereotype.

A concern about rape is most certainly a valid one, and I'd never propose to tell anyone that it isn't valid. And of course I didn't say or even imply that in my post; you read that into it in order to prop up a straw man argument. A concern about rape is more than valid, and I share that concern for every woman. But I don't then assume that it's alright to stereotype ALL men simply because a few of them are knuckle-dragging neanderthal criminals. What you're endorsing is a stereotypical approach to "teaching" us all when in fact VERY FEW need such "training," if one could even assume that "training" would ever eviscerate a mental illness and reproach for society that would induce them to rape another human being.

The odd thing is that some women - thankfully a minority of them - seem far too at-ease with stereotypes about the whole male gender while simultaneously railing against any and all stereotypes of their own gender. I fight both equally, and I think it's sad that you don't. Being neither male nor female dictates how a person will behave, nor the quality of said person. It simply dictates which reproductive organs they possess at birth. Nothing more. Women don't need "lessons" on how to behave, and neither do men - as groups. Instead, known offenders - the distinct minority not representative in any way of the broader gender - might need "lessons," again assuming they'd work.

Moreover, I've never once denied that some people need reformations of their attitudes towards women. Never. So yours is a straw man with respect to "you'd like to deny their existence." I don't deny that some citizens of this country are assholes. But I don't then say that because some member of some group commits a crime that we then must "teach" the entire group how to behave, as I know full-well that one member does not a group make.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:13 PM

31. Sorry to say you've made your own personal feelings

The absolute center and of paramount importance in any conversation about rape.
Interesting you've witnessed not any brutish behavior or jokes (I guess you don't ever watch popular movies or cable TV?) and are so minimizing the importance of it, because AGAIN this is more about you, than it is about anyone else.
Unfortunately I've witnessed the jokes make men uncomfortable (but silent still) and seen people look the other way as women were dragged off at frat parties.
I've seen guys laugh as women fell to the ground roofied. It's not something people here are making up as entertainment.
Which is why I said- if this magic sheltered life of yours is truly the case, then you lack life experience (and interest, since its not about YOU) and so should really get the fuck out of the conversation.
What's so hard to get? We'd like to move forward and talk about things we have seen and experienced- even if YOU haven't.
It's not about stereotypes at all, it's not about your sense of entitlement that men should not be discussed a certain way.
We're discussing things we have seen first hand and experienced. If you don't know or understand this, just move on.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:27 PM

32. Things seen and experienced are also personal events, yeah?

So you're internalizing and personalizing the discussion as well. After all, you say that you've seen and witnessed it. So that being the case, then it must be a universal, or at least broad enough that all of us dumb men need your snide assertions that we live in ivory towers or whatever because we haven't personally engaged in raping or otherwise abusing a woman. It's utter bullshit, and I suspect you know it.

A second point, I'm not sure from where you're drawing this undeserved sense of nobility, but you haven't the right to tell me or anyone else that we should just leave a conversation. I think you know where you can stick your holier-than-thou attitude. You're not any better, any better-informed, or any more knowledgeable than anyone else. You're just like everyone else on this board, someone with an opinion. Unfortunately in your case, it's an opinion which seems to cut against well-accepted societal norms such as not stereotyping others in any case, not just when it doesn't affect you personally.

The things you claim to have seen are indeed awful, yet what you haven't yet and I suspect never will demonstrate is how they have anything to do whatever with the entire male gender. They don't, and I'm quite sure you know that. What they instead show is that some people are animals. But some doesn't equal all or even most. It simply means some. You know, sometimes when you buy a bushel of apples there'll be a rotten one or two in there. What you would do is throw out the whole bushel instead of simply deciding which few are affected and tossing those. It's irrational and, frankly, not altogether sane.

The point here is that you seem content to endorse the author's stereotyping of an entire gender to suit her aims, whereas I say that no aim can or should be legitimized by stereotyping others. It's no more correct to stereotype men as rapists or rapist-supporters than it would be to stereotype any other group based entirely upon something you've seen a few do. My point about my experience was to show you that not ALL men are the same, and either I'm the ONLY GUY ON THE PLANET like this, or - the far more likely - that many of us are like this and your stereotypes are both inaccurate and offensive. That you don't care about offending us simply because YOUR dander is up about some other subject is irrelevant to the point that you seem to endorse stereotypes when and where you think they serve you.

Try as you might, but you simply can't explain your comfort with stereotypes against men because you full-well know stereotypes are offensive and wrong. But I'm sure that won't stop you from responding with some inane tripe about how I'm in an ivory tower or whatever. You know, the straw men of which you seem so fond.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:39 PM

33. No one anywhere said the majority of men participate in this

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:34 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm sorry neither you or any of the men who started inane and pointless threads (rape is not default) explaining this to women failed to take notice we never said any of this. NONE. Even though on each pointless and reflexively defensive thread this mistake was pointed out to them- it persists. What a waste of bandwidth.

We're having a discussion about life experiences you claim to have no experience with whatsoever. I do know quite a few other men who have known or suspected others of being date rapists and have warned off females and discouraged tolerating their angry denigrating "jokes" or out downs towards women. Us girls get a lot of it when we don't put out or its found out were smarter or more successful. I bet you'd be shocked at the anger directed at us for not being easy or for doing well for ourselves.
Im not sure if anyone I know has the level of deep unfamiliarity with misogyny that you claim.
Regardless, we'd like to (and will)continue the conversation without inexperienced folks claiming there's nothing to discuss- and that boo hoo, it hurts their feelings. Seriously?
Interesting you still believe you have anything of value to offer on the topic at hand - other than youre not at all familiar with it- seriously. What a joke.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:04 PM

36. It is in the fucking OP: 4-8% of men are responsible for the vast majority of rapes. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:08 PM

39. He's just trolling to derail......

Or another dude who feels his refined sensibilities are offended by our discussion, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:14 PM

40. Yeah. How dare we consider the epidemic levels of sexual violene as more important

than their refined sensibilities.


Thank you for all your posts tonight.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #40)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:24 PM

41. Sometimes my refined sensibilities get hurt too

But if people are discussing an issue important to them, I'd never charge in like a bull demanding they stop. Sheesh, I guess I never had that kind if entitlement though.

I thought the link was thought provoking to say the least, wish i had that and email 25 years ago....

so thanks right back at ya.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #41)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:36 PM

46. What a hypocrite

You say "if people are discussing an issue important to them, I'd never charge in like a bull demanding they stop" ... except that YOU told me this: "you should really get the fuck out of the conversation." What's that? Being an understanding person? Seems rather bullish to me, sister.

No one said anyone should stop discussing rape, and you can't show anywhere that I said such utter nonsense. What I said was that stereotyping all men is wrong, something you still can't prove to be a flawed statement despite your many lies and straw men attempting to do just that.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:09 AM

61. For you to claim you "never heard a rape joke"

and never heard men demeaning women, you are asking people to believe the impossible.

Glad you've managed to live the impossible life and avoid this awful behavior, but your experience does not negate the experiences of so many rape and molestation victims. We've even had several DUers ADMIT to using passed out, drunk women to masturbate into, yet still you've "never seen" such? Sure, buddy. Bet you've got some oceanfront property in Kansas you want to sell us as well.

Here's a big clue: If the blog posted isn't about YOU or anyone YOU know, then why are you getting so pissed off about it?

You cannot be so self-absorbed nor can you be that clueless that you think a blog asking men to help eradicate rape is somehow harming you personally.

As others have said: "It ain't about you."

So you don't give a damn about women and what they are trying to tell you because you are by gawd perfect? Great. I agree with those who say let the grownups discuss the issue while you live in your happy sparkly dreamworld of perfection.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:14 AM

81. First of all, you have no idea what my experiences are

So you can save the assumptions about my life and what I've seen.

Second, that you find it impossible to believe that I haven't heard a rape joke or men denigrating a woman's humanity (that's what I actually said), then you're stating that you believe that so many men are rapists and rape-supporters that I must've heard it by now. That's a statement laden with one of two assumptions: The first is that the sentiments of men are better known by you than I, and that it's so widespread that literally everyone hears it; or 2 that I'm lying about it. The first hypothesis is not provable by you, as you can't claim to know just how widespread the sharing of rape jokes is, and I can't prove that I've never heard a man telling a rape joke. So you can assume what you like, but know that simply stating what is YOUR ASSUMPTION does not necessarily make for a great argument, nor does it prove much of anything. For that reason I included my own personal experiences, as I'm not aware of statistics relating to the prevalence of rape jokes (so I couldn't demonstrate it that way), and unlike you I don't feel free to toss out broad-brush assumptions about entire groups.

Third, the post most certainly IS about me as it says that "men need lessons" regarding rape and rape support, and I'm a man. So it is inherently about me, much as any post generalizing women into some group would inherently be about all women. That's what a generalization is, you see.

Fourth, I don't think asking men to help eradicate rape is somehow harming me. What I think is that labeling me into some group which "needs lessons" doesn't actually ask for my help but instead offends me. And that's been my point the whole time, something you'd know if you actually read what I wrote instead of just clambering to disagree with it.

You can save the smarminess for someone impressed by it, but you could do a hell of a lot to impress me by simply understanding that no one wants to be stereotyped or told that they, as a group, are uneducated about something simply because the author doesn't realize that not all members of the group are the same, and may in fact be equally "educated" about it already.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:20 AM

84. I think you're full of shit

NOBODY goes through the Marines or Frat life without hearing nastiness about women.

Please spare us any more of your boldfaced lies.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #84)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:49 AM

89. You ever been through either?

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #89)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:56 AM

90. My SIL was in the Marines and has a few tales to tell...


My son was in the 75th Ranger Regiment and I've been to their barracks at Ft. Benning. Had to close my ears a few times when the guys down the hall didn't know someone's mama was there.

I ran a pub at a HIgh Dollah university, which was covered in drunk Frat boys every night. Also went to college for a bit so yeah, you're weaving some real BS in with your faux outrage.

I have five sons and one daughter. I raised them right. My sons would all laugh at you....my daughter would be kinder, but she'd still think you are full of shit.






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #90)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:01 AM

92. Ah, so you've never PERSONALLY done the things you claim to know so well, then

Gotcha. Interesting how you "know" so very well two things you've never actually done yourself. Ever heard the term blowhard? I suspect so, for you're its very definition.

As for your kids, I suspect you know about them laughing at people all too well, for I'm sure with your rather experience-free approach to "knowledge" they did that quite a bit at your expense.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #92)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:17 AM

100. Wow, keep digging that hole

into that happy sparkly man land where all the men are perfect and there's never a discouraging word. I have been around military and frat culture and YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT. Are you saying my Marine SIL is lying that SOME SOME SOME SOME male Marines are fucking asswipes?
Are you saying I never heard a young soldier say something dumb and demeaning when he was around his buddies?

Are you saying that the frat boys I babysat never told jokes about rape?

I must have imagined it all, just like you;ve imagined living all these years and never ever ever heard a man demean a woman, and just like you IMAGINE you know all there is to know about rape and you have absolutely nothing further to learn.

i suppose all the rapes in the military NEVER happened in your sparkly happy man land?

My kids would laugh at a man who is offended by the statement "men need lessons." And at a man who denies he's ever heard a demeaning word about a woman.

But they would also feel really sorry for someone that prone to falsehood, someone who lies so readily about their past, and someone who obviously HATES for anyone to suggest that he might not know EVERYTHING.





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:32 AM

106. You really can't read, can you?

Nowhere did I say or imply that all Marines or all men are perfect gentleman. If I did, tell me where exactly.

What I said is that YOU have no knowledge of how many men or Marines are pigs because of course you're not either of those things, as you're similarly not a frat brother. Yet you for no reason whatsoever, with no currency of which to speak, think you know exactly how these groups behave. Astounding.

I have no idea what your experiences are, nor do I doubt what you say they are. And even more interesting, nor have I done so. Your attempt to suggest that I doubted your stories is as pathetic as I've seen any effort in this thread to twist my words around, for I never said that your experiences didn't actually happen. For the record it was you who said that about me with the full weight and credit of absolutely zero evidence to support it.

People like you are an interesting breed: so unable of arguing their points of view that they instead try to twist what their debate opponent says and then argue against that straw man, as if that somehow proves anything other than your inability to discuss a point in a cogent, effective way.

What your kids would or wouldn't do is neither here nor there, nor does it interest me in the slightest. Nor frankly does it manage to support in any discernible way your side of the argument. It as usual is an attempt by you to change the subject from what it was to what you want it to be because you know that you can't defend stereotyping, so obviously you're more comfortable on some other grounds. Hell, I can't blame ya. I would be too were I fool enough to defend stereotyping. Luckily I'm not dim enough to defend such a thing, so I guess I'll leave you and your kids to do that job.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #106)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:45 AM

113. I have defended men many, many times on DU

Had this been an actual case of negative stereotyping, I would have defended your comments as well.

But there is reality and there is fantasy.

You are trying to paint a picture of yourself as someone who has lived the life of a monk, and there is not one person on DU who will believe that you were in the Marines and in a frat and you never heard another male denigrate a women.

You are also trying to paint a picture of yourself as a man who already knows all there is to know about rape and you are claiming there is absolutely nothing else for you to learn.

Nobody with a real sense of self believes that about themselves. Well-adjusted adults realize they can always learn more no matter what the subject.

That's what the OP is about.

Rape is a terrible crime, and ALL of us - male and female - should jump at the opportunity to do what we can to stop it.

If you'd rather manufacture offense than discuss ways that men can talk to each other, mentor younger men and confront men who speak in a degrading manner toward women, you show JUST who you are.

You have made your posts in this thread COMPLETELY about yourself rather than the topic at hand. I really feel sorry for you.




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #113)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:06 AM

118. Nope, not the life of a monk. Never said that, never implied it

Simply that I haven't raped anyone, haven't heard a confession of same, haven't heard or seen or been a part of getting people drunk to take advantage of them, none of that. That's not the life of a monk, it's the life of someone who respects both the law and humanity. How you've come to accuse me of suggesting that I've lived life perfectly is an exaggeration made only by someone desperate to attack the messenger as opposed to trying to debate the message, and it's rather pathetic, frankly.

The OP is not all about men learning about the perils of rape. It's about men learning that "bros before hos" is some nefarious scheme meant to form a pact between the two men, an omerta pledge, to never say anything about the other's rape resume. It's about men learning - supposedly - on how to spot predators in their midst, as if they don't already know how to do that, don't already talk amongst themselves about perhaps questionable, dubious, or dangerous individuals in their company or cohort who might do real damage to someone. It assumes that many men go along with these things not out of direct malice, but of a kind of malevolent silence that they should know is wrong but simply need a bit of training to understand. This is horribly misguided, as many men absolutely abhor rape - many of them have family members who've been raped and thus traumatized, and some have even been victims of rape in prison or even outside. But yes, "men need lessons," aside from those who already know it first-hand, and those who even not knowing its effects personally are still human beings who wouldn't be silent about the torture of another human being.

That anyone would assume we don't already have that capacity is offensive and wrong. Period. Dance around it all you like, but you know as well as I do that stereotypes are wrong and offensive. Rape is much worse. Much, much, much worse. But that rape is worse than stereotyping and bigotry doesn't mean we can't discuss both and hopefully eradicate both. We're human beings, we're capable of doing more than one thing at a time.

In no way does my ire at being stereotyped take away from the fight against rape, and you damn well know my anger at being stereotyped doesn't do that. Hell, how could it, even hypothetically? This is DU, a message board. You're pretending that we're conducting some formal symposium on the subject, and that any derivation from the specific agenda necessarily erodes the force of our effort. It's a pure manufacture to distract from the fact that you know you can't defend the stereotyping, so instead of that you're choosing to focus on me ... and then you have the chutzpah to say I'm making it all about me. You're doing that, ma'am. You're doing such a good job of it that even if I wanted to I couldn't do it any better.

Your level of hypocrisy and chutzpah is almost astounding, alarming even. Yet even still I don't cast doubt on what you say here because of course I've no evidence to support such doubts. You, however, have accused me of repeatedly lying ... all the while lying about what I said to support your claims. I mean that takes some nerve to be doing the very thing you're accusing someone else of while doing it yourself, all the while doing so with no evidence to speak of. Not even a firsthand personal experience to support it. Breathtaking stuff, really.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #118)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:23 AM

127. This is absolutely hilarious

I just re-read the OP, and re-read the entire blog, and I can't find anywhere where it says "all men" must do anything.

There are suggestions for ways "men can help" but she never qualifies it with "all" at any point.


If you can find anything that says "all men" somwhere, please copy and paste with a link. Otherwise you hijacked this thread for absolutely no cause and we've had very little discussion on the actual topic. If I'm right, you really should be ashamed of yourself.

I'll be waiting


Thanks.



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #127)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:32 AM

130. Reading Comprehension 101

Men is a plural term when used in that way implies all members of the group. Saying "all men" is unnecessary as the "all" is implied in the noun's definition. The proper construct for defining something less than the entire population is by inserting "some" before "men," thus limiting the range of the noun.

The very title of the OP contains "men need to learn ..."

I suspect the shame is yours for both failing to comprehend written words in addition to being willfully obtuse because the message doesn't particularly jibe with your own worldview, but then again your protestations and straw men have been tossed out with such reckless abandon that I dare say you're shameless.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #130)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:43 AM

136. Thank you for hijacking the thread

and boring us all to tears with your self-pity and misogyny

Classic....complaining about something that isn't even there.....



LOOK EVERYBODY! IT'S THE TEAMSTERDEM SHOW!!!!!! Warning: IT NEVER ENDS!!!!!!!!

Pay no attention to the horrific rate of rape in this country, TeamsterDem is offended that men might be asked to help out!!!!!We can't offend TeamsterDem or he will bore us to DEATH!!!!!!! And anyway, how dare we ask for men's help! Ignore the rapes and pay attention to the poor victim, TEAMSTERDEM!!!!! Man of Men! Knower of all things, offended by a single word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unaware that his experience in no way means that men of all ages can't do better to help end rape! Believes that rape is far less important than making his point over and over and over and over and over and over .over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over vover and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over vover and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over .........











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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #136)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:50 AM

140. Whew, now there is an adult response. My goodness such maturity

At any rate, it's clear that you came to a debate armed with bullshit and were then surprised because someone didn't like the smell. But as it turns out spreading more bullshit onto an already enormous pile that you've created by shoveling so much of it into the pile you're now - I would guess - going to call an argument doesn't alleviate the problem that it stinks to high heaven and serves only to point out that discussion isn't your strong suit, lies, accusations, and exaggerations - mixed with manure farming - are much more in your zone.

Well have fun with that. Just please keep the stench down as much as possible. Some of us don't enjoy smelling your compost heap.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #140)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:02 AM

144. Do you feel better?



I would say you are the immature one, darling. Getting your knickers in a twist over a word.

That's about as juvenile as a poster can get.

And derailing a thread like a spoiled brat who didn't get the right number of sausages on his plate.


POor, poor dear. You have been so WOUNDED by us all....and you've disgusted most on this thread, so I wouldn't be bragging if I were you. You've made the very important topic of rape the TEAMSTERDEMSHOW!!!!!!!!


LOOK EVERYBODY!!!!! ANOTHER BORING TEAMSTERDEM SHOW THREAD!!!!! ( Ignore rape...) it's TEAMSTERDEM!!!!! MAKING THE WORLD SAFE FOR MEN EVERYWHERE!!!!!




I

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #144)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:03 AM

147. Oh my. It continues! Well, I guess children's tantrums do tend to wear on

You'll cry yourself to sleep at some point, I guess. Sweet dreams!

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #147)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:15 AM

155. keep digging, oh glorious offended one

you've completely offended me, by turning a very important discussion into your own comedy routine.

If it was funny rather than tedious sophistry we'd all be having a great time.

But not once have you offered even one suggestion for how men might help end rape.
Not once. It's all about you.What YOU would do, not any suggestions for things anyone else can do, no enlightenment, no real conversation except to say "Rape is bad but let me talk about myself some more."

All you keep saying is "not my problem, man. Can't worry my pretty little head over that issue. But please everyone, worry about ME because someone didn't parse their statement exactly to my specifications."

You sure can name call and present your case, but damn if you can add anything else substantive to the thread.









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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #155)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:30 AM

162. Actually, I've said none of those things

and right in the title of the topic it says "men need to learn." You see, when a title contains words such as these which provide their own context, then it becomes part of the topic as well, just as the fact that the article in no small measure discusses men and their abetting of rape within it. Therefore, my intentionally-obtuse friend, men are an inherent part of the topic. How couldn't they be? They were mentioned in the title and the article which buttressed it.

With respect to men helping to end rape, I most certainly have addressed that very topic on a multitude of occasions. Your zeal in attacking me and making my life into the topic (something which you're now ever-so-hypocritically blaming on me) you simply shot right past it while imagining of how to next exaggerate my words to say what you'd like them to so you can more adequately address them. That, however, is your failing, not mine.

I never said nor implied that rape is not my problem or that I'm not worried about it. What I did say - numerous times, in fact - is that rape being wrong doesn't excuse another wrong being said in its advocacy. That is, someone discussing rape doesn't just inherit the right to offend others with wide-ranging stereotypes simply because of the gravity of the subject. And in fact one would think that such a serious subject would warrant more serious thinking than shotgunning all men into some universal group all the while asking for their help in combating something.

What you're doing is failing to read what I say, instead assuming I'm saying things that I am not. In no way did I diminish the horrific nature of rape simply by saying that the thread was poorly titled and that it probably isn't helpful to offend such a broad group with careless and ignorant stereotypes while asking that they help in combating the problem. Again, for all of your spinning and attempts to twist the topic into me and my life and my actions, you still can't answer how stereotypes are acceptable and why. I'm merely continuing to respond because I refuse to cede that men don't deserve the same consideration vis-a-vis not being subjected to bigotry, and for that you've labeled me everything in the book - while complaining that I've offended you - and are stunned at why there are many responses to that end. Well, if you thought that my posts were derailing the topic I'm sure you could've reported that, and I'm equally sure that someone who was truly concerned about that would've simply ignored the posts. But you didn't. Thus they are valid concerns, they're not shared by you, but your repeated responses indeed indicate that they are valid. No one responds to posts with absolutely no validity to them.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #162)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:56 AM

173. You have indeed said it's "not your problem"

Don't backtrack now.

You have indeed failed to provide any content relevant to the thread because you've been too busy having a temper tantrum all over it.

Here's what I will say to the more noble men of DU: ( TeamsterDem you can just cover your eyes now so you won't be further wounded )

Noble men of DU: the blog post discussed studies of rape attitudes, rape in the Navy, etc. What it is doing is turning a new leaf over in rape awareness.

Rather than focus on educating women alone, it posits that educating men about rape can go a long way towards ending the "safety" rapists feel around other men. When men refuse to entertain rape jokes, when they don't tacitly allow date rape or demeaning talk that reduces women to body parts, they help stop rape.

Do many men already do this and look out for women and male friends who can also be rape victims? Certainly. But there are a lot of men - younger and older - who do NOT do these things, who look the other way, who laugh when their friends boast of sexual conquests.

So there is a lot of work to do; otherwise rape would not be the epidemic it is.

Even if you have no friends or family who act this way, when you're around other young men, help them by bringing up the subjects of date rape, peer pressure and sexual ethics. They may roll their eyes, but they will hear you.

The military has a very bad problem with rape. If you are in the military, make it your mission to discuss rape with other men and women in a progressive way. Stand up for what's right and you will get more respect, even if you get ridiculed at first. We really have to ALL be part of the solution.

We are all in this together. Men* get raped, too.


*I use the term "men" here, in no way implying that ALL men get raped.




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #173)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:04 AM

176. Please point me to my quote where I said it's not my problem. If you can't, admit you're lying

because you are and you know it. The content I provided was directly relevant insofar as the thread's title discussed men's role in combating rape and I, as a man, interjected on just that precise issue. How you can manufacture that it isn't relevant is the stuff of a hate-filled person not altogether attached to reality, but instead attached to his/her viewpoints.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #176)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:43 AM

188. By saying the blog in no way applies to you in

any way shape or form, that you already know what to do and don't need a "lecture" as you call it ( now that's REALLY childish writing there - like you're talking to your schoolteacher or your mama ) and that you are offended by feeling included in the "men need to learn" title, you have made it clear that the blog does not apply to you.

Ergo: the problems spelled out therein are not YOUR problems and thus you have no need to be concerned about the blog post or its suggestions.

You resent the implication that you might do anything further to educate yourself or to discuss the issue with other men.

Ergo: the blog does not apply to you and is not YOUR problem to worry about. You already have all your bases covered and you're doing everything exactly perfect in your life to end rape.

( You ignore it when the blog mentions that rapists aren't "slimy guys" but are
often good looking, gainfully employed, successful guys that the other guys think are just peachy. The fact that you think just because you stayed away from "lowlifes" you've never been around a rapist shows that you don't really understand much about rape or rapists.

Nevertheless, you maintain that the blog doesn't apply to you and you are quite angry at the op title's implication that it DOES apply to you. You are angry that you are lumped in with other clueless men.)

ERGO: NOT YOUR PROBLEM and you appear to resent being reminded that it's ALL of our problem.

So if you know all there is to know, why are you still on this thread? we all know why you're all in a dither, but what none of us can fathom is why you felt you needed to say the same thing so many times?

Were you not listened to as a child or something? Or did you just have a need for a lot of attention this morning?

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #188)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:59 AM

192. Does contorting yourself so strenuously cause physical pain?

I mean, the OP and the blog piece make specific mention of men and their role in combating rape. But the OP and the blog piece both suggested that men need training - to wit "men need some lessons" - on rape, and men being an all-inclusive word and me being a man, I have and had every right to comment on that portion of the title and blog piece. Which I did. And which you've continued at length. So it was either relevant or you're an idiot, seeing as how no one responds to someone who offers pure bullshit as an opener, and no one wastes so much time with someone doing as much lying as you're accusing me of. So take your pick, you're an idiot or my response was perfectly relevant. Not a flattering choice, but I'm afraid those are the only two options given the circumstances.

As to me not understanding rape, its effects, who rapists can be, and the like, my sister was raped when she was 14 by an attractive, well-to-do banker who literally no one thought of as a rapist (well, until the rape). She was not only raped but physically beaten during the attack. So I'm unfortunately all-too-familiar with rape, its aftermath, its ugliness, and its insidious way of "hiding" in otherwise "normal" looking guys. You're now batting a perfect .000 when it comes to your assumptions about me. Congrats. That takes doing.

When I said I avoid hanging out with certain people, I never said I was always perfectly successful in avoiding less-than-desirable friends. I did however experience luck in not selecting any rapists as friends, the extent of the claim I made to you was that. I never said I look at how a guy dresses or his employment status as a litmus test regarding possible friendship. What I said was that I try to make judgments about that person as a potential friend given their attitude, how they talk and act, and what I may or may not know about them. It's actually exactly what everyone else does, just that I specified it whereas others usually don't describe their friend selection process.

I never said the blog piece didn't apply to me, in fact I've said just the opposite: that as a man it most certainly does affect me that people are stereotyping us into a group with rapists. The rape part doesn't apply to me as a man who doesn't rape people, but as a man the stereotype DOES affect me, just as stereotypes necessarily always affect those being stereotyped. How you can deny that is flabbergasting. Worse, how you can attempt to blame a victim of bigotry instead of blaming the bigot is extremely telling about your character, not about mine for not enjoying being stereotyped.

With respect to why I'm still here posting it's because I'll not cede a valid argument to the likes of you, someone who thinks that by putting words in someone's mouth that that a good argument makes, and someone who's evidently quite eager to defend bigotry in the way that you are. I wouldn't expect a debate opponent of mine to disappear simply by dint of my disagreeing with them, what gives you such an undeserved sense of importance that you think the majesty of your utter bullshit should just make people flee? Well, I'll have to partially agree: To read so much of your lies and other manufactures in such a short time would have probably made many squeamish folks run for the hills, but your bullshit and bombast don't give me fear but instead amazement at the sheer lengths some idiot will go to defend the indefensible simply because he or she doesn't like the messenger. It is astounding, but not very intimidating.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #192)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:17 AM

197. Your own words

The rape part doesn't apply to me as a man who doesn't rape people, but as a man the stereotype DOES affect me


So you're saying that rape is far less an issue to you than someone using the word "men" in a way YOU have defined. Interesting.

You have no argument, Pal, save that of a man making a mountain out of a molehill.



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #197)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:41 AM

204. Oh my sweet Jesus, just when I thought you couldn't possibly get any dumber you went and did

Saying that "rape" doesn't apply to me as a man who doesn't rape people certainly doesn't mean that rape is an issue that doesn't concern me. It simply says that rape doesn't APPLY to me *AS A MAN WHO DOESN'T RAPE PEOPLE*. You know words ALL mean something, yeah? That sentences (in English) are composed left to right, that words are grouped together to form a meaning? In this case I simply stated the obvious: That as a non-rapist rape doesn't APPLY to me as a subject matter, but that doesn't mean in any way that I'm not concerned about it or somehow don't care about it. That's your invention, speaking of making mountains out of molehills.

I'm sure you'll try again ... and fail, again. But just know that by now it - your fool's errand - is quite stale and bordering on the desperate. But I'm sure that won't stop ya.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #204)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:47 AM

207. My friends on DU are getting a kick out of it

So what the hell?

They all want to know if you can make a post with only one or two sentences.

I said I'd ask, but that I really didn't think so.





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #207)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:13 PM

216. Mine too! Isn't that cool?

At least your lies and general bullshit are entertaining for someone

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #216)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:25 PM

221. AMAZING!!!!!!

I am soooo proud of you TeamsterDem!






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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:57 AM

91. At the least you've had a sheltered life.

A damn sight more sheltered than mine, and I'm a white guy from the suburbs! As I said before, I may not have ever directly harmed or abused anyone, but I'm no choirboy. I've heard (and occasionally repeated, I'm not proud to say) some pretty offensive stuff in my more-or-less three decades of life - maybe not "rape jokes" per se but certainly nothing I'd ever share on DU. But I still recognize the need to check my own - and at times other people's - attitudes and behavior.

Like I said, human behavior is a continuum, with saintly kindness and altruism at one end, and Hitler-like (or Ted Bundy-like) evil at the other. "Good" and "bad" actions don't somehow exist in separate dimensions of reality, but rather along this continuum.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:17 AM

101. Nothing sheltered about it

I only chose my friends based upon what I thought their values were so that I'd hopefully not align myself accidentally with someone like a rapist or any other criminal. I had a pretty good run of not selecting criminal friends until one time where I thought my friend was a normal person until he got caught selling pills in high school. But thankfully I didn't get caught up in it by mistake.

The difference, too, is I suspect that what you're inferring is that I never heard a man discuss sex with a woman, or that I never heard a man being less-than-stellar while drunk or otherwise uninhibited. That wouldn't be true, as of course I've heard many tales just as everyone else has. Yet still I never heard a one about rape, nothing having to do with getting a girl to pass out so they could attack her, anything of the sort. And even in the sex stories they never had any tinge of taking the woman's humanity away from her, as all human beings engage in sex and that doesn't make them less than human or lesser than the other gender.

So I think perhaps you're thinking that I'm saying that I've never heard a man talk about wanting to get laid whereas of course I've heard that. Yet I've never heard one discuss rape or suggesting that women owed them sex or were any lesser beings than he. Mine hasn't been a prudish or secluded life, and we've all had wild times and what not. But using alcohol as a tool to incapacitate a woman was never something I did, nor was it anything I was ever around. Sure, there were frat parties where EVERYONE was drinking, but we never discussed getting girls drunk to take advantage of them. In fact we called the paramedics for a girl who'd had too much to drink and we all grew concerned since she was looking much worse for the wear, so to speak.

IDK, I'm a white suburban guy too. And I've had just as many wild times as about anyone else. I guess, though, my definition of wild in terms of what I did and was around isn't defined by the amount of rapists I ran across; I don't think it's being "sheltered" to have not had a friend tell you about how they raped another human being. Instead I strongly suspect that MANY people share that, just as I'm sure - unfortunately - that many have had the misfortune of experiencing the opposite. Yet I don't call other people liars for their experiences unless and until I have proof that they're lying. It's strange that so many feel such freedom in attacking someone else with literally no proof whatsoever that they're lying, and in effect - instead of listening to that person's grievance about being stereotyped - attacking him as though the issue is him and not stereotyping. It's exactly what men used to do to women who complained about inequality, so it's not really much more impressive going the other way.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:49 AM

139. I'm not calling you a liar. I just said your account of things seemed overly defensive.

And I don't appreciate the insinuation - vague though it might be - that I myself have knowingly and willingly shared the company of rapists. I haven't, and would do my best to avoid and shun any man I knew to be a rapist - that is, assuming I didn't have the opportunity to actually turn him in.

I realize you and I probably have more in common than not. Except I don't tend to make long-winded posts about my hurt feelings - if nothing else, it would make me look petty and self-centered myself.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #139)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:02 AM

145. What in the world are you talking about? What insinuation?

I never insinuated that you'd kept company with a rapist. I merely restated my life in terms of not having been around rapists, the life you then exaggerated into some sort of "squeaky clean" form which I never said it was. I think you're reading WAY too much into my posts instead of reading exactly what they say; only through almost a wishful reading of my post could you have inferred any insinuation for not only did I not insinuate it, I didn't even think it - in fact I thought you were a female poster, so of course I wouldn't then insinuate you kept company with rapists.

The reality is that I never posted about hurt feelings. What I said is that stereotypes are wrong. That I'm rather wordy when I discuss things doesn't denote any sort of emotional element, but instead a desire to be thorough and exacting when dealing with sensitive issues. But for all of my words many have still branded me as a misogynist, a liar, and have put words in my mouth, so I guess my effort was in vein.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #145)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:06 AM

149. You've been putting words in other people's mouths this entire thread.

So forgive me for getting ever-so-slightly defensive myself...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #149)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:13 AM

154. Where, exactly? Just saying it more than once doesn't make it so. nt

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #145)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:28 AM

161. It's VAIN, not vein.. And it's ironic you wouldn't know that, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #161)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:31 AM

163. oooh a spelling error. you really got me with that one! kudos. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:13 AM

48. I wonder if either of you realize how offensive your attitudes are

What seems to be happening is that you're discussing rape, so every man must toe a line and allow you to use whatever means you desire to make your points about that very serious topic. But what you're not realizing is that while you're rightly lambasting THE OFFENDERS who behave in those ways, you're saying the word "men" without qualifying first that it's "some men" about which you're speaking. That is the definition of stereotyping, labeling a group based on the actions of some of its parts. Women have for years rightfully fought against this sort of thing, but now when a few of that group's members start engaging in the very same behavior they inexplicably find support for the very attitudes they used to fight against; that you can't even muster between the lot of you the integrity to say "you're right, it's not all men" speaks untold volumes about your true aims which evidently are to merely remove any verbal/physical abuse from your realms but not for others. It's hypocritical and calls into question just how progressive any of you in this thread truly are.

There are many refined men who don't think or act in any way close to what's been portrayed here, and we typically don't want to be aligned with the scum who unfortunately share a gender with us. They're not "ours" to defend, just as not all women must defend every other woman out of reflex. That you seem to think it's okay to stereotype us because rape is worse says a whole lot about you, none of it positive. I don't owe any of you an apology or a defense of the behaviors described herein because of course I'm not the guy who did those things. Moreover, as a fellow human being I deserve better than having you label me as somehow a cohort of a rapist. Yes, women deserve much, much better than a rape or the countless instances of discrimination they face, but I'm not the one doing any of those things, so I don't think it's entirely fair to say "men" when what you mean is "that man" or "those men."

If any of you folks would be thrilled at the idea of anyone labeling you in the same group as the lowest criminal form, then perhaps you need a head examination. But for the rest of you, please drop the charade that it's okay to stereotype some other group because it isn't. Many men stand with women in their struggles, I think we deserve the same in return, not to be lumped in as rapist cohorts.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:55 AM

58. Not only are you not discriminating or raping....

Which is great, BTW.... But you've never seen it happen.

And are offended by the suggestion that you MIGHT see this behavior, someday... And be made aware of it (since you've never SEEN it, sounds reasonable to me) and educated as to an appropriate response that would be helpful to women would be. Because this hurts you to think about? and effects your ridiculously misogyny free life somehow?
Do you know how ridiculously self important you sound here? I can tell you don't get out much, but really- you're personal feelings are not the priority here. Get over it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:56 AM

65. Do you have difficulty reading written words? You keep saying I said something that I didn't

I'm not offended by you saying that I might one day hear other men dismissing a woman's humanity. I'm offended that you're perfectly fine with articles that lump ALL men into a group to include rapists and their supporters, as most of us don't fall in that group. Even if it were most it wouldn't be all, as language has different words for all and most, namely the ones I just stated.

That you continue to try and shift the discussion back onto me as if I were the one offending entire swaths of people by generalizing them into some offensive group simply shows you're unable to see your own sins, yet so effective at spotting those of others. If any man on this board were to generalize women by saying they all need some education on something, I'd be one of the first to tell him that his attitude is offensive and arcane. I suspect you'd be right there with me, if not in before me. But when it's done the other way it's evidently just fine with you, something which shows not a dedication towards progressivism and equality but instead towards furthering your own side of things, to hell with everyone else.

I don't need training on how to not support rapists, as I'm already doing a good job of not supporting them. Nor do I need any lessons on how to spot rapists, as any comments about rape are obvious for what they are (and I'd report them to authorities were I to hear ANYONE state or imply that they'd raped someone). Being that I'm a member of the "men" group, it's not fair to say that "men" need this education because if I'm like this I can't be literally the only one, and seeing as I have a pretty long resume in terms of being around the so-called manly groups of our society (U.S. Marine, brother of a fraternity in college, and now a Teamster), I'd say that if it were a majority of men thinking in the way you're alleging then I'd have heard it by now, or at least heard about it on a much wider scale than a lunatic like you who can't even manage to accurately quote what I'd just said, instead putting words in my mouth to try and attack the straw man.

The long and short of it is this: you evidently support stereotypes and generalizations in cases where it doesn't offend some group you might be in, and that is as offensive as your continued undeserved sense of power to tell me where I can and can't discuss things. Just for you, friend, I'll keep posting here, and will make sure to post more often since I now know you seem to irrationally and wrongly believe you have the power to tell me to stop. My opinion carries equal right of expression here on DU as yours, and your incessant demands that I excuse myself from what you think is your turf has equal power of weight as would mine, were I foolish enough to attempt it. Fortunately I'm not, however, nor do I think my opinions should dictate what others do or don't do. Strange that you do seem to think that of yourself.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:54 AM

75. It says right in the article that a small percentage of men are rapists,

and the majority of men are not. What is your problem?

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Response to Quantess (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:58 AM

77. The OP also says "men need lessons" as if we're a bunch of idiots who don't know already that rape

is wrong. Men, as I've stated plenty, is a group word used to denote the WHOLE group. If you only mean to refer to some of a group then you say "some men."

How people feel such ease stereotyping men is a mystery to me, especially considering that this is a progressive website where one of our shared values is getting rid of sexism. If the author meant to say "some men" or denote that some portion of the male gender smaller than the entirety of it should have some education, then she could have said that - and I suspect that if that's what she meant she would've already responded and said that's what she meant to say. But she didn't say that and hasn't clarified up till now, so it of course appears as a stereotypical statement as it necessarily must given its construction.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:06 AM

80. This isn't about you, though.

At least, it shouldn't be.

Some men get really angry and defensive when we talk about things that have happened to us. I had an ex boyfriend who acted as if I was personally insulting him when I talked about all the sexual harrassment I have experienced on the street. It was kind of weird that he reacted that way, and was so defensive about it. He tried to tell me I must have been imagining things, or that I was exaggerating, or was being ridiculous. I said "well it doesn't happen so much now that I'm in my 30s. It was worst when I was a teenager", which didn't help my case one bit with him. He himself was a total gentleman, and he just could not accept the idea that all men were not as well behaved.

I think I'm seeing the same thing in your reaction.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #80)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:34 AM

86. You're seeing something that isn't there, I'm afraid

The comparison you offer differs in this respect: When you told your boyfriend that you were harassed, I'm assuming you didn't tell him "men need lessons" with respect to how to behave. But in this case the OP says "men need lessons" as though we don't understand rape, that we're too dim to know it's bad, something like that. Insofar as it stereotypes me as someone who doesn't understand it sufficiently to know that I shouldn't support a cohort who does it, it's offensive. It became "about me" to the extent that I'm a man and the OP says that "men need lessons."

What you're saying is that if women are discussing something that they deserve free reign to discuss it in whatever way they want, using whatever terminology and stereotypes they wish, and that - simply by dint of it being (more of) a woman's issue - that I have no right to say anything. That's a load of malarkey, though, and I suspect you know it.

I'm not quite like your ex inasmuch as I most certainly can believe that not all men are perfect gentlemen. Heck, the incarceration numbers for rape obviously tell a different story. I also know that the stories here on DU about mistreatment and rape are real. All I said is that it's not all men, and when someone uses a term which denotes ALL, one needs only prove that it's not all to prove the exaggeration. So my telling of my own account simply shows that at least one guy doesn't need "lessons" on rape, and if there's just that one guy, there's probably more like him. By probably I of course mean many, and that invalidates the "men need lessons" statement.

Sometimes in life an offense can be real or perceived. Sometimes it's both. In this case I'd like to believe that I read too much into the post and the language used, but given that I've read and reread the article and the op's "men need lessons" statement - and given that the OP hasn't clarified that it wasn't ALL men who need lessons - I'm much more inclined to believe that the offense was real, that in the OP's mind men aren't smart enough to get it and thus need lessons on it. It's sad but unfortunately true: sometimes even progressives have their biases and some are even bigoted in certain ways. That's too bad, really.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:04 AM

93. I think your idea of "getting rid of sexism" is somewhat misguided.

Of course it's not okay to hate *anyone* for their gender - any more than for their skin color - but male prejudice against women, and female prejudice against men, are not precisely equivalent in a society where men wield disproportionate power.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:24 AM

103. Well, that's not quite right either

A true feminist believes that equality is more than just equality of outcomes, but is also striving to erode and eradicate the thought processes and beliefs systems which harbor biases and foster bigotry. So yes, men do wield disproportionate power and for that reason we rightly strive to pass legislation aiming to reduce the incidences of disparate treatment. But it's not enough to simply legislate biases as we're seeing with many people in the South and their antipathy towards African Americans still to this day. Notice I said many, not all.

Getting rid of disparate outcomes is a fine and noble goal. But if the idea isn't to convince people of why that's right, then I think any movement is necessarily hamstrung by its appearance of force as opposed to reasonableness. That is to say that legislating bigots to act in a different way doesn't get rid of the bigotry and in many ways only strengthens their resolve. More so if they can point to situations like this one and say "well, women want to be considered equal to men and don't want us to stereotype them, but look at how they're treating this fella." Granted, I don't think this situation is going to come to the attention of anyone, but my point is more geared towards saying that we should behave in a manner which comports with the changes we're seeking, not in direct contravention of them.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #103)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:35 AM

108. Well if you really want to be honest about the world, you can't always use perfectly polite language

to describe people and their actions. Using pretty words for ugly things - unless you're a poet - merely obfuscates the ugliness.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #108)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:18 AM

124. I'm not sure I know what that means

When you want to be honest about the world I think you do yourself and your readers/listeners a distinct disservice to then use stereotypes which are nothing but distortions and untruths. I'm not sure how stereotyping a group can be called anything other than what it is, an artifice of bigots.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:53 AM

172. You claim you purposely avoid awful misogynist men-also that you've never seen or heard misogynist

behavior. So, either you're a psychic, blind, deaf, ex frat boy, marine or completely full of shit.

Take your pick, but please stop peddling the nonsense. I'm nothing but embarrassed for you at this point. May you grow out of this foolish fixation on your ego some day. Your petty feelings and willful ignorance do not deserve the attention you've demanded here. Good riddance.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #172)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:01 AM

175. No, I said I avoid types which might turn out to be bad acquaintances later on

such as criminals and those "stud" type of guys who we all can spot from a mile away who seem to think they're a gift to women (them I avoid knowing that failure to do so would put me around misogyny or perhaps worse). And I never once said that misogyny doesn't exist, that it isn't a serious problem, and that there aren't a bunch of men who're cretins. What I said is that I have never personally witnessed men who admit to raping women, using alcohol to rape them, or who joke about such a thing. And I've further said that I've not seen men stripping women of their humanity through words or jokes. None of that says it doesn't exist anywhere. It just says it can't possibly be such a high proportion of men given that every man would surely have run across it, and I like many men haven't had that problem.

So either you're an illiterate dim bulb who doesn't comprehend written words or you're unable to debate facts as presented, while we're giving one another false choices. Of course in your case I'm not entirely sure about just how false that choice would be.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #175)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:17 AM

179. you jumped the shark a while ago. but you go double down if your ego needs it so badly.

the internet is full of teenage boys typing out their fantasies and hijacking discussions with hot air just so these kids can feel more important. You've already wasted enough of people's time with your fairy tales. I don't buy a single word of it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #179)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:26 AM

184. As I don't buy your pompous judgments of others, nor will I cede an argument I believe in

just because you find yourself not liking it. It's your problem, not mine. If you don't want to discuss it with me, then you know how to resolve that little dilemma. I won't pursue you with a PM or anything, so simply not responding to me would seem to accomplish that goal. It would, however, show that most with disagreements towards me in this thread can't really debate what I'm saying, but instead choose to either attack me personally or ignore it. It's not really an endorsement of that opposing view, but you're free to it nonetheless.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #184)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:45 AM

190. wow, thanks for allowing me to have my own opinion without the threat of PM stalking, LOL.

I'm sure you think that's a magnanimous gesture.
Did you learn that from the imaginary frat bros or your imaginary fellow marines? LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:02 AM

194. Does that pass for wit in your circles? Or is it pretty much seen as every bit as pathetic as it is

here?

By the way, typing a bunch of LOLs doesn't make you look like you really just zinged the other person. It instead makes you look like a beaten, angry fool who thinks the charade of typing it will make you appear confident. Just a word to the wise, realizing of course you have no attachment in any way to that group.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:33 PM

45. No, you're engaging in stereotyping by supporting someone who said "men need education"

Men is a word used to denote a group, the entire group as it were. And since I'm a part of said group I don't appreciate being lumped in with the very small minority of that group which engage in such horrific things. Would you like it? I doubt that very much.

But evidently it's okay because you're not a man, so we should just shut up and allow women to tell us that we as a group need education, that we're too stupid to know that rape is wrong, and that our behaviors - again, she said "men," not some men - are supportive of rape. Sorry, friend, but I won't shut up about being stereotyped - as no one should.

My lack of experience with rape is the entire point, ma'am. The author said "men" need education, and since that word specifically means all who share its traits, my lack of experience with said traits inherently means the point is bullshit. That you're ignoring that salient fact says a ton, as do your attempts to sweep under the rug the fact that you're endorsing stereotypes by not disavowing their usage in all cases. It's a telling sum. I'm sure you don't think so, but I assure you it's conspicuous.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:22 AM

53. You claim you're completely ignorant that misogynistic behavior happens, but are

Last edited Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:56 AM - Edit history (1)

Telling me also, that there's absolutely no need for you to listen or be educated about it?
Seriously, asking you to butt the fuck out (of a conversation you have no experience or apparent concern about) is the NICEST thing I have to say to you.
Why you want to intrude and derail is a whole other ball of wax I won't even touch on here. Because that would be insulting.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:11 AM

66. Maybe if I type more slowly you'll comprehend it better?

I don't know what else to do, seeing as all you do is misquote me and construct straw men. What I'm saying is that this epidemic (that of some "rape culture") doesn't exist to the extent you think it does amongst the male population, so lumping ALL men into that group is unfair, bigoted, and ignorant. To the extent that some men are rapists or would look the other way if one of their friends raped a woman, then yes, they should require lessons. But that population is TREMENDOUSLY small, as between the Marine Corps and Teamsters Union I'm friends with some of the "manliest" of men, and I've never once heard any of them talk about raping a woman, condoning rape, or using alcohol to sexually assault someone. Have I ever heard someone say a derogatory thing about a woman? Yes, of course. But never in a rape context, nor have I personally witnessed a man that I knew denigrating a woman's humanity. I've heard it on TV and the movies, but I honestly don't know anyone who believes women are anything other than what they are, fellow humans.

Perhaps it's some sort of syndrome with you that you think all of us are targeting you or somehow in disagreement with a woman's equality, but I assure you that we're not all that way (especially those of us wise enough to be born to Italian mothers).

I believe it was you who earlier in this thread stated that some asshole treated you roughly (I'm sorry, I don't recall the exact story ... not being dismissive or anything, just that it's late and I don't recall). I think that's physically revolting behavior on his part, and I certainly hope that he not only received a sentence for it, but also that he learned a lesson from it. Don't misunderstand my position: Rape is an extremely serious problem, and any rapist or person who assists a rapist by not saying anything deserve nothing but the harshest of prison sentences. But in making that case you'll notice that I don't have to make broad-ranging assertions about whole groups of non-offending people, I instead judge only the offenders and their enablers.

Hopefully you can get past whatever issue has you so hostile to the idea that men too can be victims of profiling, and that - shockingly - they don't like it. For some of us it's nothing but purely offensive to hear how we're in some way, shape, or form a part of a problem group when we haven't done anything to deserve that designation. You've made about a billion assumptions tonight about me, recently suggesting that I "don't get out much," yet you don't even know me. You have no idea who I am or what I've done, yet feel such ease assuming whatever you like and then the nerve to tell me to stop talking. Well, sister, this is a public message board, and as such I'll keep posting here until DU says otherwise. Here's a hint: You ain't DU. And since you've shown a rather stark inability to deduce meanings of things tonight I'll make it very plain: That means I won't be honoring your "request" or demands, and I'll continue to opine whenever and wherever I choose, within DU's rules, of course.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:17 AM

83. Sometimes I think DU's biggest problem of all, is people's compulsive need to engage in sophistry.

They'll go off arguing vehemently (and verbosely) about things that don't really affect them. Oftentimes almost seemingly just to be contrary. Thus clogging up threads with subthreads that aren't all that relevant or helpful. Obviously everyone doesn't have to agree with everyone else all the time - impossible anyway - but a thoughtful response to an OP (this OP for example) is always better than a reactionary one.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:45 AM

88. That assumes you know my motivations

Which, given what you wrote, you don't.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:20 AM

102. It's just a pervasive pattern I've noticed. Nothing personal, really.

And I certainly don't think that your motivations here are anything malevolent. More than anything I think it's the nature of the Internet, where people will argue long-windedly about anything and everything, almost like it's a sport.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #102)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:08 AM

120. hehe I don't disagree with your assessment of the net

I truly wasn't arguing just for the sake of it, but we all know that's commonplace on the net - especially places like this.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:49 PM

42. Gee

Thank you so fucking much for telling us mere women that our experiences don't matter, nor do they exist, because your exaulted self hasn't been exposed to it. I mean what would I think if it weren't for you.

I am glad to know that the guy ( really he was probably only 14 or 15) who had me pushed against a wall, while his friends laughed could not have really happened because you weren't there. I thankfully got away. That guy ended up in prison for raping another woman. If I wasn't fucking 11 years old, I might have had the knowlege and maturity to know what was going on and reported to the police.

Just a question. after you made a pass at a female and she declined did you ever reply or laugh with your budies about not wanting to do that bitch anyhow? Or any other derogatory remark to lessen the woman as a person? Have any of your friends said it to you?

I am so fucking sick of men telling women what rape really is. Why don't they just STFU and listen for a change. Or is their opinion so important that it overrides reality?

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:27 PM

44. First off, stow the attitude

No one anywhere said women's personal experiences don't matter or exist. Tell me, smart one, where did I say that? I didn't and you damn well know it.

What I said is that ALL men don't deserve to be stereotyped for the actions of a few. Tell me how I'm wrong about that. Good luck. You'll need it.

No, I've never diminished a woman's humanity by dismissing her as a "bitch" who I "didn't want anyway." And no, I've never experienced guys dismissing a woman's humanity in the way you described. I've seen it in movies, but life isn't a movie. Most guys upon rejection realize that not every woman wants them in that way, and that it's perfectly fine given that we don't want every woman in that way; e.g. fair is fair, and human sexuality/preferences are what they are.

Nobody told you what rape really is. I certainly didn't. Or if I'm wrong, please tell me where and when I said what rape is and isn't. Point me to my words that say such a thing, please. You won't because you can't because of course they don't exist, beyond those you'd like to put into my mouth that I never said.

Your hostility towards someone not wanting to be stereotyped as a rapist is very telling. It suggests that you're a hypocrite, one who stands against stereotypes only when they offend you personally, but when they sort of buttress some argument of yours then they're just fine. Well, I'm not that way. I've not stereotyped anybody, nor would I condone it in any way were I to hear it. It's a shame that your rage has you standing up in support of stereotypes. Sad, that.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:33 AM

50. thanks for telling me what

Last edited Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:06 AM - Edit history (1)

I can do with my attitude, now shall I tell you what you can do with yours?


I have heard the things you claim you never heard and I am willing to bet a good many women on this board also have. I refused dates with men to hear I must be on the "rag or something"
told I was a bitch, and many other derogatory names. No...it couldn't be they were assholes, I was the problem. Their buddies laughed. It wasn't in a movie as you dismissively suggest.

Your posts are prevalent in the attitude that women don't know a fucking thing if we would just shut up and listen, we would learn. Your overall wording is very telling,
such as this:

The author presumes that all or at least most men are somehow enablers of rapists. We're not
the point is that this article says that men need to learn how to combat a rape culture which assumes 2 things: 1, that there is a rape culture, and 2, that men - the descriptor used by the author - don't collectively know about it or how to deal with it. Both are wrong.

Unfortunately in your case, it's an opinion which seems to cut against well-accepted societal norms such as not stereotyping others in any case, not just when it doesn't affect you personally.



Then you posted this in response to someone posting that they have witnessed the behavior:

So you're internalizing and personalizing the discussion as well. After all, you say that you've seen and witnessed it. So that being the case, then it must be a universal, or at least broad enough that all of us dumb men need your snide assertions that we live in ivory towers or whatever because we haven't personally engaged in raping or otherwise abusing a woman. It's utter bullshit, and I suspect you know it.

Condescend much?

You have been told repeatedly in this thread that the OP states:

This blog post is dealing with the issues raised by two large-scale studies which show that an estimated 4-8% of men are committing the majority of rapes

Bettyellen wrote this:

No one anywhere said the majority of men participate in this

Again redqueen wrote this:

It is in the fucking OP: 4-8% of men are responsible for the vast majority of rapes. nt

I bolded it so you won't miss it this time.

It is sad that you feel the need to defend and deny behavior you CLAIM to never have seen. I'm the hypocrite when I tell you, you are wrong that the behavior is out there. Again, there is nothing wrong with you, your experiences are the ones that matter. Not that you're the ......

Women are wrong for thinking men should be held accountable. Like the author of the OP I am not saying ALL men. I am referring to the men that contribute to the culture, whether it was just once or twice or a pattern of behavior. But despite being told repeatedly you are still insisting that it means all men. Why is that? You are still denying it exists. Why is that?

whether or not you personally have ever seen it. You claim you haven't but then claim you have seen it in movies, so which is it?

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:56 AM

69. It's a shame that some men think that way

with respect to "putting out" and that stuff. It's not a crime but it sure is embarrassing and offensive that some men still think women owe them sex. I've heard of it, but honestly I've never heard a guy claim anything like that. I did hear some guys saying that so-and-so is willing, so then the others would say they'd prefer to go on a date with her. But I never heard anyone say anything about rape or condoning it. If I had I would have called the police.

What I'm saying is NOT that there are no men like this. Clearly there are, and the prisons have many offenders locked up for being rapists, including so-called "date rapes" (which I think is an awful term because it of course diminishes the cruelty of the crime). Instead, I'm saying that some broad representation in the male population of rapists and rape supporters doesn't exist nearly to the extent that's suggested here. That doesn't diminish the fact that it does occur, nor does it diminish the idea that if a man hears that his buddy raped a passed-out girl (the "drunk girl" scenario from above) that he SHOULD call the police. I agree with those things, and certainly rape should never be an issue not to be talked about. But that's what we're doing: We're talking about it. I'm simply telling you my side of it. I realize you didn't ask for my side, but this is a discussion board open to you and I equally, and it's an important topic that I think deserves discussion.

With respect to the universality of the claim, look, we both speak English. We both know that when referencing a gender, without clear descriptors defining how much of the gender you're referring to, that the term "men" or "women" is taken as a universal concept. No one says "men are x" when they only mean certain men. They say "men are x" to denote ALL men, otherwise they'd use an adjective to whittle the definition down to where they were aiming. If I were to say "women need x" - and assuming I didn't say oxygen, food, or water in x's place - I'd be generalizing/stereotyping women ... ALL of them. If I narrowed my phrase to "some women need x," it could possibly be offensive depending on what x was, or it could be perfectly benign. But there is no limiter to "men need education," as that implies we're all or mostly all pretty much the same article when in fact we're not. You know damn well you'd take offense if it were done in reverse, so feigning ignorance only serves to suggest hypocrisy is a rather accurate description of your actions here tonight.

Of course your bolded points only serve to highlight the egregiousness of the original claim (to wit that men need education), as you yourself note that 4-8% of men engage in the crime. So why then do we all require education? Does any other group require "education" for the sins of what 4-8% of its population engages in? At what statistical point does a group start requiring universal lessons?

With respect to "which is it," I'd point out that movies aren't real life, so just as I've seen astronauts land on an asteroid and blow it up to keep it from striking earth in movies yet don't claim to have actually seen such a phenomenon, I don't then lay claim to having "seen" a particular thing if where I saw it was a movie. And you're also missing the point: I didn't say that some men aren't criminals and assholes. What I said is that it's not all of them. If it's not all of them, not all of them need education. That's a pretty natural point, one which shouldn't require much explanation to someone not intentionally feigning to be obtuse.

In any circle I've ever been a part of, had someone claimed to have raped a girl that person could've counted on the police showing up. Perhaps throughout my life being a Marine, a Teamster, and a fraternity brother (3 of the places most known for "manly" shenanigans) I've been sheltered in some "ivory tower" (as someone else put it) away from the real men who do these sorts of things, but somehow I rather doubt that. What I suspect instead is that mine is a fairly common experience, and that the vast male plot to rape and/or support rape just doesn't exist on any grand enough scale to require whole-gender education, and is instead comprised of the statistically few sick creeps that do it and absolutely deserve the harshest of prison sentences for it.

Any idiot who needs to be told that raping a woman is wrong and should neither be done nor condoned/covered-up is far too stupid to comprehend such a concept anyway, so I'm not sure what "education" is available to someone who doesn't see the innate wrong in rape or its cover-up. It's a lot like murder or child abuse in my view: If you don't already know those things are wrong, I'm not sure what sort of a "lesson" will teach that to you.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:36 AM

202. why do men need to be educated?

I guess you missed the thread where the OP stated it was the NORM and EXPECTED of him among his peers to "fuck" women (when I say women I am not referring to all women, some women) who were passed out at parties. THAT is a culture.

How about what happened to me? That guys friends LAUGHED, which only served the purpose of encouraging his actions. THAT is the culture.

Tosh made a comment during an act that rape jokes could be funny, when a woman spoke up and told him rape jokes were never funny he responded with this: 'Wouldn't it be funny if that girl got raped by like, five guys right now?

'Like right now? What if a bunch of guys just raped her...'

Instead of apologizing he basically said the woman lied. That is the culture.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172277/Daniel-Tosh-tells-female-heckler-funny-bunch-guys-just-raped-her.html

How about this story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48872000/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/sex-assault-girl-divides-texas-town/

An 11 year old girl was repeatedly raped by at least 8 men. Some people in the town blamed the victim, you know because she wore makeup, she was unsupervised, she dressed in tight clothing. This case divided the small town between those who thought the victim was at fault and others who said rape is rape. BTW the rapists videotaped the attacks. THAT is a culture.

You yourself said you saw it in movies (yet somehow you refuse to accept that it happens) THAT is the culture

Why would 51 – 60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they could get away with it.

One in twelve college-age men admit having fulfilled the prevailing definition of rape or attempted rape, yet virtually none of these men identify themselves as rapists

43% of college men admit using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman’s protest; using physical aggression; and forcing intercourse; 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraint to force a woman to have sex.

http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/college_campuses_and_rape.htm

Those men do not live in a vacuum, where none of their friends suspect what is happening. This behavior, as what the Op in another thread stated is known and condoned. It is encouraged and laughed about. Boys will be boys. Quite frankly your deliberate obtuse understanding of facts is very telling. Why won't you trust a woman when she says there is a culture that allows for rape, just because you have never seen it? Ahh but you have, as you admitted in movies.

So I ask; why is it wrong for women to say that not only have courses informing women on how to protect themselves, to also tell men (ALL MEN) whether they would engage in the culture or not, how not to rape, to identify behavior among their peers that is detriment to a woman's safety? What is wrong with admitting that indeed there is a culture that reinforces and supports rapists.

Look at that those stats above doesn't the 43% tell you something. 43% of men in college will admit to rape, as long as you don't call it rape.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #202)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:12 PM

215. It most certainly IS NOT the culture despite the fact that unfortunately it does happen

Look, you're trying to tell me what MY culture is, and I'm telling you that in most circles (admittedly not all, but most) rape is most certainly not condoned. I've heard the horrific stories about what happens to some women, and in fact my own sister was raped. But that alone doesn't mean that the "male culture" is one of raping women, as that would mean that nearly every man engaged in that behavior. I'm sure that's how you view them, but your view doesn't comport with reality.

One interesting way to describe it is how "justice" gets meted out in prisons. Typically sex offenders are the first in line to get raped by some other inmate, and prison rape is almost all about dominance and retribution for something (whereas rape-rape is about that, what I think is probably a mental deficiency, and I'd also imagine there's some weird sexual desire there too). So even prisoners - male prisoners - punish rapists.

I've seen a lot of things in movies that I don't automatically assume are as widespread as a movie would have me believe. Hell I've seen movies where a regular guy was made God for like a week or something, yet you don't see me thinking that's a valid option. I DO think rapes happen, otherwise I wouldn't acknowledge the incarceration numbers and the very good evidence suggesting it's probably vastly underreported. But until you can show me that men as a nearly unified group either engage in or endorse rape, you're not going to get much in the way of agreement out of me by telling me that my culture is anything other than what I know it to be. I've heard that fraternities are much more likely spots to find endorsement of it, yet I was a member of a fraternity and NEVER saw or heard of anything like that happening. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I'm only saying that if it were so widespread - what? - was I the luckiest guy in the world to pick the only frat - or one of the few frats - which don't do that? No, probabilities would suggest that while a very serious problem, it's not a cultural norm but is in fact a significant minority of persons who then paint their gender mates with a very disgusting brush.

With respect to the statistics, you're telling me that a statistical minority of a population somehow equals its culture? I don't know how that works precisely, but even your own statistics - assuming they're correct - show a minority figure for what you're claiming to be the majority/dominant culture. That doesn't make a lot of sense, and frankly it's offensive that you think what those cretins do is somehow reflective of what most men believe in.

We men have our share of problems. No doubt about that. But even your own "evidence" doesn't show a majority, it instead shows a minority for which you're now suggesting the rest of us have some sort of responsibility for or some affinity with. Moreover, I've seen numbers ranging from 30%-60% on students who admitted they'd rape a woman if they could get away with it, but I haven't seen any such number on men as an overall population, e.g. 18 and over. In another thread I supported the idea of teaching students about what constitutes rape, as I think students are an at-risk population owing largely to youth, the wildness associated with being away from home for the first time, and of course the worst factor: alcohol consumption. I'm in full support of a measure to teach both male and female students what consensual sex means and where the boundary is, but I do not agree that student populations are a good overall predictor for the rest of the gender, as the wildness associated with college doesn't share a large parallel in "grown-up" society (e.g. we can't party that much or we'd lose our jobs, plus as you get older who could deal with all of those hangovers).

Rape is rape, there's no better way to say it than that. So we could always do better to teach kids who evidently don't understand that concept (according to your own sources some 60% of the surveyed females said that rape after 6 months of dating would be okay, so both groups have some work to do in my view). Yet let's not be so quick to label everyone a rapist for as it turns out those who aren't absolutely hate it.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #215)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:21 PM

237. DERP-you think there's just one single culture of men out there? Every school,company,neighborhood

sports team, individual fraternities and any other social group had different norms values, behaviours and attitudes. Those are also cultures. No wonder you were so upset- you thought there was only your own, LOL.

You've been a victim of over simplistic thinking. As much as you resist it, some education would help.

"Yet let's not be so quick to label everyone a rapist for as it turns out those who aren't absolutely hate it." - this is you, making up bullshit again. Stop spreading lies.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #215)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:40 PM

238. oh my

I've heard the horrific stories about what happens to some women, and in fact my own sister was raped. But that alone doesn't mean that the "male culture" is one of raping women, as that would mean that nearly every man engaged in that behavior. I'm sure that's how you view them, but your view doesn't comport with reality.
Here I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but then you went and said this.
Look, you're trying to tell me what MY culture is, and I'm telling you that in most circles (admittedly not all, but most) rape is most certainly not condoned.


FFS I never said it was YOUR culture, but somehow you assumed I did, nor did I say it was “male culture” Did you mean all male culture, or just some male culture. Because you did not specify lets use YOUR default definition: ALL male culture. Therefore NO male has ever contributed to or were directly involved with condoning rape or laughing when demeaning sexual talk or gestures were targeted towards a women. You have been repeatedly told throughout this whole fucking thread that not ALL men support this, or involved in this, nor are all men rapist. Yet you still take umbrage that the OP did not specifically state some men. The definition of men : plural of man. It is not all men by default. Amazingly enough I am smart enough to differentiate between the two. Apparently you are not despite being repeatedly told throughout this thread.

But let’s get back to the OP. This is every instance of the word men:

survey asks men, of men raping women. * 120 men admitted to raping; These 76 men; of the men surveyed; These 76 men,; The whole sample of almost 1900 men ; the men; young-ish men; studied 1146 newly enlisted men; of the men who; The 96 men; these men; 96 men; The vast majority of the offenses are being committed by a relatively small group of men ; Of the men who used only force against their victims, none reported raping a stranger; all the men knew; men who targeted; small group of men; that is a lot of men — perhaps six or twelve million men in the U.S. alone; I’m directing this to men who inhabit het-identified social spaces, and I’m not really limiting it more than that.Listen. The women you know will tell you when the men they thought they could trust assaulted them; , these men need silence; , these men need silence; The women you know will tell you when the men; The men in your lives; pull six or ten or twelve million men out of; discussing rapes committed by men

Not once did I come across an instance where ALL men were even implied. Quite the opposite, there is a descriptor qualifying the amt of men. Note that this quote was not even in there "men need lessons” as you quoted in a previous reply.


One interesting way to describe it is how "justice" gets meted out in prisons. Typically sex offenders are the first in line to get raped by some other inmate, and prison rape is almost all about dominance and retribution for something (whereas rape-rape is about that, what I think is probably a mental deficiency, and I'd also imagine there's some weird sexual desire there too). So even prisoners - male prisoners - punish rapists.

WTF does prison rape have to do with the topic we are discussing?

I've seen a lot of things in movies that I don't automatically assume are as widespread as a movie would have me believe. Hell I've seen movies where a regular guy was made God for like a week or something, yet you don't see me thinking that's a valid option. Now you are being absurb, and you know it

But until you can show me that men as a nearly unified group either engage in or That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I'm only saying that if it were so widespread - what? - was I the luckiest guy in the world to pick the only frat - or one of the few frats - which don't do that?


43% of college men admit to rape, as long as it is not called rape. What part of that do you not get? 51-60% say they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it.

These men do not stay in college forever, they graduate and move on. It does not automatically stop when the man receives a diploma. Then they become a part of the general male culture. . Some will continue their behavior, some will not.

Congratulations!1!1, you say you have already done that. Not every man is you and you are not every man.. Women need more help in combatting this violence. Not being told that a culture (the set of values, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic) of misogyny doesn’t exist and is not widespread because you yourself have not seen it.


No, probabilities would suggest that while a very serious problem, it's not a cultural norm but is in fact a significant minority of persons who then paint their gender mates with a very disgusting brush.
But that is not what was done, despite your insistence.


With respect to the statistics, you're telling me that a statistical minority of a population somehow equals its culture? I don't know how that works precisely, but even your own statistics - assuming they're correct - show a minority figure for what you're claiming to be the majority/dominant culture. That doesn't make a lot of sense, and frankly it's offensive that you think what those cretins do is somehow reflective of what most men believe in.

This is where your logic fails. The studies targeted very specific groups of men, you conflate it to ALL men. I defined the definition of culture I was using above, but basically it is a sub-set, a culture within a culture, if you will. But go ahead and ignore, conflate and construct a strawman argument, you seem to be enjoying it.


Rape is rape, there's no better way to say it than that. So we could always do better to teach kids who evidently don't understand that concept (according to your own sources some 60% of the surveyed females said that rape after 6 months of dating would be okay, so both groups have some work to do in my view). Yet let's not be so quick to label everyone a rapist for as it turns out those who aren't absolutely hate it.

Is that all females or some females? All kids or some kids? I am pissed at the fact that you seem to believe ALL kids need to be taught better. MY kids know better. How dare you suggest that ALL kids believe that rape is okay if they are dating? Do you think my kids are some kind of animals that need to be restrained? How dare anyone would assume my kids don't already have that capacity is offensive and wrong and participate in this. My kids have ZERO to do with that belief. Thanks for stereotyping my kids. But you know what? I understood what you meant just fine. I didn’t need to create a whole thread around me and perceived persecutions.

You did say we, but what do you mean by we? Throughout this whole thread, you imply because you don’t participate in the behavior nor condone it, your work is done, now you say we…. Are you assuming that I do not discuss this with my children, and their friends? Are you saying that when I hear them using a derogatory term towards others, I don’t call them out on it, explain why it is crude and ask them to think about it? But, I understood what you meant. I feel no need to criticize and be outraged over the use of the word we, when it does not apply to me personally.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:22 AM

64. You are so self-righteous

nowhere have women said "all men are rapists."

You don't want to hear about the reality of rape? Fine. That's your call. Go live in happy sparkly perfect man land.

But don't derail the issue by injecting your own personal whining into it.

If the blog in the OP thought "all men are rapists" why in the HELL is it ASKING GOOD MEN TO STAND UP TO BAD MEN?

If there are no good men out there to help make this world a better, safer place, the blog post WOULD NOT EXIST.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #64)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:22 AM

67. Back atcha

Let me ask you a simple English comprehension question: If I say "women need x," would that not be a universal generalization? About the only time I could think of to say "women need" something would be on the order of "women need oxygen to survive," which of course doesn't warrant the effort it takes to type it since everyone needs the same. But back to the question, if I were to say that "women need x," (and presuming "x" were something not so universal as oxygen), would I not be generalizing women? Isn't that sexist? So why, then, isn't it sexism when a woman does it to a man, or when a man does it against men?

Like the old jokes comedians used to tell about how "all guys think with their dicks." No matter who told that one I always wound up slightly offended - not to any great degree, but slightly - because I'm a homo sapien and able to control my urges with no real difficulty. My dad told me he's the same way, as is my brother. So either we're the only 3 guys in the world who're like this, or odds are that we're probably quite significantly represented in our male gender.

I've had women tell me no, and I've never experienced even the slightest issue complying with her request, nor did I hold a grudge and lash out at her as though she somehow "owed" me something. As such it's offensive to be put in that category, just as it would be (and is) offensive for women to hear the stupid generalizations that are made about them. How you can conclude that it's somehow acceptable to generalize me and all men is a great mystery, the even greater one being how you then get off calling me self-righteous for noticing that I'm being stereotyped. Unreal.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #67)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:06 AM

71. If I say "all men need to eat to stay alive"

is that a terrible generalization?

If I say "all men need to help women by refusing to indulge creeps" is that also terrible? Do you not agree that we all - male and female - need to look out for each other?

No woman on DU has EVER said that "all men are evil." Ever. Never. Ever. I believe you are making that up to feed your own need to distract yourself from the horrific topic of rape - just like your made up story about never having heard a rape joke or heard a single man in your entire adult life demean a woman. Sure you haven't. Sure.

So you are feigning outrage to feed your own sensitivities, while adding nothing to the discussion of rape in our culture.

It's all about YOU YOU YOU YOU and then a little more about YOU.

So I suppose in your mind, the millions of men, women and children who have been raped are far less victims than YOU, who has seen some people post about "men" without the "some" or "many" qualifier that must accompany every single mention of "men."

Fucking poor, poor you. How difficult these threads must be for you - you're sense of insult is FAR, FAR worse than getting raped, I'm sure we all agree....




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #71)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:27 AM

72. I see you completely ignored my point

We do agree that all people need to look out for one another. And of course we agree that all men (and women) need food, oxygen, and various other things to survive. But you missed my discussion of that very point where I said that unless it's some obvious universal need such as oxygen or food then it's a sexist comment, something you damn well know. If I were to say that "women need education" I'm sure I'd get banned from DU, and depending on what exactly I were referring to probably rightfully so. Yet it's evidently okay to suggest - by way of our "need" to be "educated" on a certain thing - that we're too dumb to understand it on our own, hence the education necessity. Strange, that.

I realize that no woman on DU has ever said that "all men are evil" which is of course why I never claimed one did. That's a manufacture on your part, from where I've no clue. What I said is that using the term "men" means all of them unless first described as "some" to denote a particular segment of the population. That you're feigning to not comprehend that is extremely interesting. And ridiculous.

With respect to not adding anything, uh, I'm adding my point of view. And so are you. And so are all the other members contributing in this thread. That's what DU exists for, friend, for people to share their views. Something you're now attacking me for doing. Why? Can you not challenge my views with your own? What are you adding to the thread besides your own opinions? Nothing, exactly the same as me. Man, the hypocrisy around here knows no bounds.

Supposition is a dangerous hobby, for it often makes fools out of those who practice it. In this case there's you assuming that I believe that rape victims' pain is somehow inferior to some pain of my own, whereas actually I don't see myself as a victim of anything, nor is there any pain to speak of. Instead it's called a viewpoint, an opinion you might say. Opinions and viewpoints needn't have any "pain" attached to them to be real or genuine, instead they need only be felt by their orator. Yes, it bothers me to be stereotyped and lumped-in with such a disgusting group of creeps, but this is a discussion board and I don't take any grand offense that there's a few uncouth hypocrites out there whose opinions don't jive with mine. Instead I'm simply sharing my opinion, much as you are. That you're somehow engaged in some grand enterprise while I'm just a fly in the ointment speaks to your level of disconnect with the fact that not everyone agrees with you, and even in disagreement there can be common ground (such as ours on rape and its horrific nature/effects).

The reality is that rape is an abhorrent sickness which unfortunately happens to people, and they're the victims of their assailant. But those victims deserve better than "advocates" who presume to speak on their behalf while offending those who otherwise ALSO advocate for them (see "men," not all, but many). There's no good reason to label all men while discussing rape, and as such I called it out. That doesn't diminish rape as a crime in any way, shape, or form. It instead says that let's all agree that rape is bad, and let's also agree that good men don't do it or encourage/condone it in any way, while unfortunately some bad men do. You see? I managed to make almost the same case as the OP without labeling anyone, while making sure to state that rape is something we need to fight together to stop. Together. And to be truly together we shouldn't be labeling parts of the advocacy, lest they decide their help isn't wanted and they're instead judged and labeled.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:44 AM

73. Blah blah blah

tldr


you've gone from false outrage to being completely boring.

You've made your fucking pointless point about 50 times on this thread.

We get that you're torqued off over nothing, Really, we do.

So why not compose another 10,000 words screed on how your sense of insult is FAR worse than rape?

really - it's all the FUCK about YOU....forget rape ......you are SO MUCH more important...

EDIT TO ADD: IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HELP WOMEN, OR FEEL YOU NEED EDUCATION, THEN DO NOTHING, SIT IN YOUR BUBBLE AND KEEP TELLING YOURSELF HOW GREAT YOU ARE







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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #73)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:54 AM

76. Just gonna slam your fingers in your ears and whine like a child then, eh?

Well, don't feel too bad. You didn't bring up the "men need education" bit, so you were forced into defending the indefensible which of course is why it didn't pan out. The question is why you'd try to defend stereotypes, but that's your cross to bear. Not mine. Just don't expect many to sympathize with your pain the next time someone stereotypes your group in an unflattering way and you find yourself offended, as I'm sure your hypocrisy on the subject won't lend you to much support or empathy.

I do wish you'd stop putting words in my mouth that I never said, though. At no time did I say "my insult is FAR worse than rape," in fact I actually explained that it wasn't even close. You'd know that, of course, if you weren't so enraged at the prospect that equality among the sexes actually means "equal," and that one side doesn't enjoy the liberty to stereotype the other, and weren't so busy trying to deflect attention away from that.

If someone were to discuss genocide (itself a monumentally important topic) and did so by opening "all Germans need education," would you defend that statement too simply because it was discussing an important topic? Or wouldn't you rightly deduce that not all Germans deserve such opprobrium even after WWII, so there would be legitimate room for discussing BOTH topics simultaneously and not pretending as though humans have only the ability to discuss issues one at a time?

Yours is a fool's errand, I'm afraid, for you're attempting to diminish one problem simply because it's not as devastating as another problem. Of course all problems must eventually be resolved or dealt with, and creating one in attempting to address another isn't exactly the recipe for how to achieve that.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:14 AM

82. LOL




You are still torqued that someone said "all men need education" and that includes you. Poor, poor put upon man. It must really hurt to be labelled with all those other "stupid men" who don't get it.

You are SO ENLIGHTENED you have NOTHING else to learn. You are like a GOD in your perfection! How DARE anyone lump you in with all the other men in the world. How DARE they!

It's a travesty, an outrage! Oh, the humanity!!!!!!


If the post said "all women need to educate themselves about prostate cancer" I can honestly say I would not be offended as a women. Even if I was a doctor who specialized in prostate cancer and knew all there was to know about it, I would not see the statement as a "problem." But if I was like you, I would compose a long tirade against anyone who assumed that I, the prostate doc, should be lumped with "all the women completely ignorant of prostate health! How dare they insult my female doctorness when I know EVERYTHING about prostates!!!! How dare they!!!!!!!"


There would be no pain to sympathize with for me, because I would understand that it was a statement meant to encourage people to educate themselves.

But by your pissy little misogynist statement:


Just don't expect many to sympathize with your pain the next time someone stereotypes your group in an unflattering way and you find yourself offended, as I'm sure your hypocrisy on the subject won't lend you to much support or empathy. you show your true colors, TeamsterDem. You're now giving yourself an excuse to demean women, which I suspect has been your goal throughout this thread.

No man goes through the Marines and frat life without hearing a rape joke or hearing men demean women yet you expect us to believe you did. You are really an amazing piece of work.

"You've offended me by lumping me with other guys so now I get to retaliate and threaten you! I am Perfect Man and you will not defy my authoritai!"

Your outrage is phony, your tales are very, very tall, and you end up with threats when you are shown to be the shallow, self-absorbed person your posts indicate you are.





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:44 AM

87. Wow, how very childish of you

You admit that we were stereotyped and then mock the offense as if it were nothing. How very hypocritical of you. I'm 100% sure that if a man were to demean and stereotype a woman here on DU that you'd be outraged, yet you don't seem to share that outrage the other way. It's pure hypocrisy, and it's extremely evident.

I have no idea how your childish mind arrives at the idea that I think I know everything when I said nothing of the sort. What I said is that men as a group aren't universally uninformed about rape, so as a group they don't need "lessons" on the subject because, of course, it's defined in law as a crime, and what's legal and illegal isn't quite as hard to understand as cancer - the preposterous analogy you're attempting to draw. The cold hard fact is that you simply can't get around how it's not okay to stereotype a gender, and are conspicuously attempting to divert attention away from that and towards me, as if my life has anything to bear on whether or not stereotypes are acceptable in society.

With respect to "misogyny," I'm curious as to where you find that in my statement. I said nothing - literally nothing - demeaning women in any way, shape, or form. What I said is that hypocrites aren't often empathized with, they're instead usually shunned. How that has anything to do with demeaning women is a mystery to me. Much as your attempts to defend stereotyping genders remains an unresolved but extremely telling mystery in its own right.

I hate to burst your bubble, sport, but you don't know as much as you think you do. I doubt you've ever been in either the Marines or a fraternity, but yet you think you know exactly what goes on in each and to what extent. Speaking of amazing pieces of work, it takes one to know one.

By the way, where did I threaten you? Did you yank that from the same place as the misogyny BS?

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:07 AM

95. You're adorable, really

so you are offended because someone said "men need lessons."

What you are saying is, you know all there is to know about rape and there is absolutely NOTHING you can learn to help create a better society.



But see, that's where you're wrong. You don't know EVERYTHING about rape, no one does, not even women who've been through it. There is always more cultural awareness as trends develop, new ways that rapists will develop to stalk and attack, young men who might need some advice from an older guy if they're heading down the wrong path.

There are people who can help you find ways to have the talk that you might never have considered.

But you won't hear or educate yourself on any of it because you know it all. That's all you've been saying through this whole thread. You already KNOW IT ALL.

So be offended, I still think you're a BS artist and a misogynist.

You've made yourself out to be a victim, and this is what SOME SOME SOME SOME SOME SOME men have done to women for generations - deflect a very real issue by pretending you're more harmed by the mere DISCUSSION of it.

In my book you're an arrogant phony. You also continue to call me "childish" which is another misogynist tactic when male logic doesn't cut the mustard.





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:39 AM

111. What I'm saying, sport, for about the 50th time

is that not all men need lessons on why rape is wrong and how to not support a rapist, as was the gist of the article posted in the OP which basically sought to "teach" men how to do those things. Some of us have unfortunately had sisters who've been through rape, and we've bothered to learn about it through their eyes and through the eyes of other people with that horrible experience. Saying that men need to be taught not to support rape is offensive and ignorant, as most of us already don't support it and never would. That you insist on feigning obtuseness to this very obvious point shows not your debate acumen but instead your obstinance, like that a child might display when confronted.

I never said anything about how men shouldn't learn what rape is, how it affects its victims, and what the societal damages are. What I said is that men don't need lessons about why rape is wrong and shouldn't be coddled. Most of them already know. And the ones who don't are the ones for whom a lesson isn't going to make a damn bit of difference because they're the sick ones who do it.

By the way, while you're accusing me of being "misogynist," you might wanna take a look at your "male logic" comment for an example of how I spotted you as the hypocrite you are. You think it's okay to say "male logic" as if that means somehow inferior to, distinct from, or hostile towards that of "female logic"? There are genders for logic now? When'd that happen?

Speaking of BS artist, ma'am ... well, I'll just leave it at that. You've outed yourself more than enough.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:07 AM

119. You are the one acting like a misogynist but you don't want to be called on it



Sorry. Yeah, there seems to be bad logic going on here. Not that all males share it, but lets' call it "misogynist logic" so as not to offend the men who don't resort to calling a woman "childish" because she disagrees with your false outrage.

I apologize for the term and should have clarified that it as "misogynist logic."

You say you know all there is to know about rape and you are offended that anyone would ask you to learn more. I disagree. If it's too much trouble and too "offensive" to you to be considered someone who might have anything more to learn, that says all any of us needs to know about your personal self-absorption and self-deluded status.

The topic was rape, yet you've hijacked the thread so that it's basically the TeamsterDem Show. This is what misogynists do, and I must say, TemasterDem, you do it VERY VERY well, as everyone can see.


I think the fact that you trolled this thread and basically hijacked it with your faux outrage tells the entire DU what matters to you.

Thanks for playing

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #119)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:16 AM

123. For reference, I didn't call you childish because you're female, I did so because it's the truth

Look, I mean who else but a child refuses to listen to what their opponent ACTUALLY says, but instead accuses them of saying other things so that they can argue with that more convenient thing? Well, I guess there are other words for people like that, but I didn't see the need to be overly offensive. Trust me, childish was a charitable assessment given the behavior.

Once again, I never once said I know all there is to know about rape. What I said was that I don't require a class on why it's wrong or how to not support those who do it. I most certainly do not know all there is to know about rape having never raped anyone and having never been raped. But I do most certainly know why it's wrong and how to not support it. That in no way whatsoever claims full knowledge of rape itself, it instead says that I don't require a class to teach me why it's wrong or why I shouldn't support rapists, two things I already very-well know. And two things that the vast majority of men know in today's era.

I'm not sure, though, that you understand just what misogyny is, for you've repeatedly accused me of it yet have as of yet to describe in any way just how I've engaged in it. I mean, there is nothing intrinsically misogynist about discussing topics on discussion boards, nor is there anything misogynist about saying that men shouldn't be stereotyped. The topic wasn't just some discussion about rape as you're now implying, it was instead directly focusing on men's attitudes towards rape - a very different thing from what you're suggesting it was - and being a man (and this being a discussion board) I chose to, well, discuss. Imagine that. Boy, what a misogynist I am, eh? LOL, I mean you can't make this stuff up. Sometimes people actually say crap that stupid. It's unreal.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #123)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:34 AM

132. Derailing a conversation and making it about YOU, the MALE

IS misogyny. ESPECIALLY when it's about such a sober and life-altering a topic as rape.

And nowhere in the OP or the blog does it say "all men" anything. You lied.

Why am I not surprised?

All of your posts are an attempt to hijack this thread and make it about you.

So you're a misogynist AND a liar AND an ego-maniac.

I'm done with you.

Someone else can read your self-absorbed diatribe, based on something that isn't even there....







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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #132)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:45 AM

137. I didn't make the topic about males, the OP did that by saying "men need to learn"

It's that salient and abundantly obvious point that you're gleefully and, I suspect, willfully missing that is the problem. When you involve someone in a discussion you then can't complain that they oblige you.

The lie is yours, I'm afraid, for not noticing "men need to learn" contained right there in the OP. Try taking a deep breath and reading it again, perhaps it's that unbridled rage of yours that's preventing you from seeing what's plainly right there in black and white.

As to your silly and inane rest, I can only sit here rolling my eyes and feeling some level of embarrassment for you that in place of reasonable discourse you resort to name-calling and character assassination as a first resort, then bullshit as a last. It's sad but given your bent on things not altogether surprising.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #123)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:42 AM

135. I wouldn't call you a misogynist, but you do seem to be belittling the subject of misogyny.

Namely by making long-winded, self-centered, overly defensive posts that do everything you accuse others of - stereotyping, putting words in one's mouth, etc. etc.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #135)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:53 AM

141. Show me one example where I stereotyped anyone or put words in their mouths

And show me one example where I said words that belittled misogyny or in any way condoned it. The fact is you can't do either because I didn't do any of those things. That you think it "seems like" I'm doing something doesn't mean I am, and in fact in this case doesn't even have that appearance to anyone other than someone not altogether agreeable towards allowing that in condemning rape we shouldn't simultaneously stereotype a group. Sorry, but it's not misogyny to stand up for one's self, just as I wouldn't say that a woman defending herself from female stereotyping was being in any way unfair or less than honorable.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:38 AM

133. I think the point is you've been SEVERELY OVERREACTING this whole time.

To the point of making yourself look petty and childish.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #133)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:43 AM

170. Ahh yes, everyone who takes offense at being stereotyped is always overreacting and emotional

The latter being what they used to call it. It's an artifice to defend the behavior, nothing more. And it's not any more impressive here than when it was said to women like my mom who complained at her job about disparate pay ... she was told she was being "emotional" and "overly sensitive," and that in time she'd realize it was an "overreaction." Granted, the simple act of stereotyping someone doesn't necessarily equal pay disparity, but if you support one while claiming to not support the other you're really nothing but a common hypocrite.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:08 AM

97. All women need...

 

All women need lessons on how to appropriately engage men... Or All women need lessons/classes on understanding sports/cultures around teams. All women need lessons on when they need to fart to just let it go. His point that that has repeatedly been ignored is "all men" do not need the classes in the OP. if such a statement were made about African Americans of or pretty much any other group there would be outrage over it. So 'some men' rape women. Others tacitly or explicitly approve. If the 4-8%in the article each have 1 friend that would mean that 8-16% of men need classes. Try saying that instead of all men.

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Response to letemrot (Reply #97)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:25 AM

104. The point is that if ALL men

educate themselves, ALL men can help stop the small percentage who do rape.

If ALL men would understand how and why rape happens; if ALL men would confront their misogynist friends when they say ugly things about women; if ALL men would make it uncomfortable for the assholes out there, we could greatly decrease the numbers of rapes.



Why is that so offensive of a statement or a wish? It's this person's opinion about EDUCATION, not an opinion stating that "all men are clueless assholes." If the OP said "All women should educate themselves about rape" I would not be offended, even if I thought I knew it all.

NOBODY knows it all. We can all continue to learn. It's puzzling why any man would have a problem being included in the group of decent guys whom she would like to confront the less-than-decent guys. If that's a problem for a man, HE might be the problem.

It's a way for misogynists to deflect from the issue of rape and make the issue, once again, about POOR MEN.



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:34 AM

107. How do you know most men do not act in

 

This way to begin with? That if they were to hear a man; even a friend, saying something along th lines of "man, that girl so fucked up that she laid there like a fish." That we would not interject; or notify the authorities. Or if we saw a woman clearly incapacitated to the point that she could not give consent that we wouldn't intervene? I can only imagine the horrificness of being raped; but the assumptions that a large numberof us high five and celebrate the roofie conquest; the drunken woman passed out being raped or any such conduct IS offensive. If you exclude celebration & just assume we 'do nothing' that is also offensive.

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Response to letemrot (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:56 AM

115. Once again, you poor, poor man

Nobody here said that MOST men enable rape.

But the truth is that ALL OF US enable rape in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

Lots of men and women listen to pro-rape lyrics in music, watch shows that fetishize rape, play violent video games where violence against women is part of the fun.

Does this make them rapists? No, but it desensitizes human beings to rape and minimizes the very real horror of it.

MOST MEN do the right thing, but if ALL men are doing the right thing, why is rape happening in such large numbers all over the nation?

You may not see the huge numbers of rapes as a problem. Some of us want a safer country.

The focus has been on educating women on how to stay safe....ALL WOMEN.

Now there is a different tactic. The hope is that GOOD men will go even further in making the BAD men know they are wrong. Attack the problem at the source, as it were. Don't remain silent, learn how to talk to younger men as they are forming their attitudes.

This seems to bother a few guys. Do you think it's "not your problem" so why should anyone call you out or expect any help from you in discussing ways GOOD MEN - who are already doing the right thing - can do even MORE? Are you that upset at asking to become just a little MORE aware?

If so, that's pretty sad. We should all keep learning and growing in our awareness, not manufacture false outrage so we can avoid discussing the uglier aspects of human sexuality.




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Response to letemrot (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:46 PM

242. what is so

hard to understand that all men indeed should know the behavior and words, of the type of men who rape. Just what is so hard to understand to say all men should step up in the protection of women from rapists? AND that includes calling other men out when they exibit misogyny, behaviors and terminology.

If you already do that, great you are part of the group of men that learned it at some point in your life. But somehow I doubt it, or else you wouldn't be on this thread using symantics as your point to disagree. Despite the fact woman on this thread has said otherwise. You still seem to be upset. Why is that?

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:44 AM

112. Of course

 

Of course.. Any male who is offended by being lumped into one of 2 categories; rapist or rapist enabler must be a misogynist. Thank you for pointing that out.

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Response to letemrot (Reply #112)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:29 AM

129. I just re-read the entire blog

nowhere are "all men" mentioned in ANY fashion.

TeamsterDem made it all up, just like his fantasy life and his vast knowledge of rape.

The blog discusses things men can do, but never says "all men must do this" or "all men are either one or the other."

Just because you guys know how to behave ( not on a thread in any form or fashion - you're classic misogynist threadjackers - but IRL ) doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of young men and older men who could use a refresher course on proper sexual ethics.

But being true misogynist thinkers, you've hijacked this thread and shown just WHY it's so hard to get SOME SOME SOME men to give a damn about anything but their own fucking PRIDE.


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Response to letemrot (Reply #97)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:19 AM

125. exactly. that's exactly my point. nt

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:21 AM

126. If it's only "an opinion" then why are your posts so damn long?



I'm teasing, partly, but with a serious intent behind it - namely, the fact that you've arguably expended more words on this thread than anyone else, even when - by your own admission - you're one of those least affected by the issue at hand. Seems a little contradictory to me.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #126)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:34 AM

131. no, I didn't "admit" that I'm "least affected" by the issue at hand

because the topic as it reads is "men need to learn ..." which of course intrinsically involves me as a man. There are two issues, one being rape, the other being men's attitudes towards it. I've stated at long length my opinions on rape, and I've offered my views as a man on just what "we" need to learn and already know.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #131)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:03 AM

146. But you made this thread ALL ABOUT your hurt feelings.

That's called hijacking (or derailing), and when the subject is this serious, it ain't cool.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #146)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:06 AM

148. Friend, take a look at the title of the thread

in it is contained "men need to learn." Inherently there are then more than just one issue, as this and the article itself speak DIRECTLY to men and men's attitudes toward rape. In that vein I'd suggest I was perfectly on topic, and any protestation to the contrary is either disingenuous or out of ignorance to just what the topic's title was and what the article was discussing. It wasn't about rape in the abstract, it's about men not supporting rapists. In fact that point is quite clear. How you're missing that is rather mysterious and also not what I'd call "cool."

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #148)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:10 AM

151. The point is you threw a fit about "stereotyping" in the midst of a thread

about horrific trauma. I think that's the very definition of petty and self-centered.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #151)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:16 AM

156. No, in a thread about men's attitudes towards rape I both gave my own attitude

and expressed that it isn't okay to stereotype people. How that's self-centered can only be arrived at by changing what the topic is about to suit one's interests and then knock that straw man down. The topic's very title includes these words, dude: "men need to learn." So inherently the topic is at least partially about men. It must be, it had that word right in the title. Interesting how that works, ain't it?

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #156)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:23 AM

159. Your *whole argument* is a strawman. Again, *no one* on this thread is lumping all men together

in a negative way. You're parsing their wordings to a point that's downright absurd.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #159)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:32 AM

164. "men need to learn" with reference to not supporting rape is the very definition

of lumping all men together, guy. The only way you don't see that is that you're trying not to ... speaking of absurd.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #164)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:42 AM

169. So this is all about... sigh... FOUR FUCKING WORDS???

Honestly, I give up... We're just not gonna see eye to eye... I wish people wouldn't hijack threads about important subjects, but oh well...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #169)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:48 AM

171. Jesus, I suggest you reread what you've written to me

And then imagine different words in their place written to different people at different times in history. Yes, words have meanings. And words hurt and can cause real damage. Isn't that what we always told other people when they denigrated other groups with stereotypes? There is one word that offends an entire people, so it's not the word count which impresses, yet the weight which does.

I've never seen a group of people so hell-bent on denying something so obvious in my adult life. Seriously. If progressivism were a union I'd hope all of you turned in your membership cards for so glibly and callously dismissing one of its central tenets simply because you didn't enjoy its placement and felt it was less-than-convenient, even though it was mentioned as part of the title of the thread. It's impressive the lengths to which bigots and their enablers will go to justify their behavior, although not impressive in any positive way.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #171)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:18 PM

231. Funny, the blog was written by a man



But don't let that stop you.

Proceed, Guvnuh.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:15 AM

122. "Stow the attitude"? Considering what she just described, that's a really self-centered post.

Can you please think of someone's suffering and misfortune other than your own?

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #122)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:27 AM

128. I didn't cause their suffering or misfortune, thus I don't deserve the attitude for it

I owe no woman an apology for the pain caused her by some sick man because I wasn't that sick man. I didn't do it. Throwing me attitude is undeserved and a bit petulant, I'm afraid.

That you've been hurt doesn't give you the right to talk down to others and expect them to not respond in kind. When I get smarmy I damn well expect a smarmy response, no matter who may have hurt me in my past or what scars I might be carrying around. The only people deserving of my opprobrium for having caused me pain are those specific people, not everyone else under the sun.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #128)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:25 AM

160. It just wasn't the thing to say right at that moment. Came off as insensitive.

nt

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #160)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:39 AM

167. Tough. I don't owe anyone niceties or sensitivity. I do owe them the truth and that's what I've

given here in terms of my true feelings on the subject. I don't have the universal hold on truth, but what I mean is that I've given my true feelings and my honest insights. But nice words and being kind in the face of attitude is not anything I owe to anyone, just as I've not been offended that those at whom I've thrown attitude in this thread have gotten pissy. It's natural, and they don't owe me niceties. As I don't them.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #167)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:00 AM

174. The truth about an ex frat boy marine who's heard nary a misogynist word spoken his whole life?

and can yet judge what sort of men to avoid, because he doesn't want to accidentally befriend a rapist. Amazeballs.

Except it's a steaming pile of shit.
Sorry, but I don't owe you any niceties, just my true feelings on the subject.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #174)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:12 AM

178. Dear Lord. You can't be that dense, can you?

I simply avoid people that seem like their attitudes and beliefs wouldn't be a good fit with mine. I avoid people who act like criminals, people who act like partiers (not because I judge them, but because I'm not one and we wouldn't have anything in common), men who look like misogynists (we all know "that guy," the one who gives off that air of being a gift to women), and people like you who refuse to see another person's point of view in some myopic pursuit of justification for your own viewpoints.

It's something we all do when we meet people: We might not just their "worth" as a person, but in terms of hanging around with them socially we make other judgments about them which are "informed" by our own values and beliefs. You do it, I do it, everyone does it. Luckily I've chosen mostly well, although that's not to say always. But by intentionally not hanging around with the "studs" I've managed to avoid having to call the police when they brag about raping someone, or having to hear their bullshit "conquest" stories that I've no interest in nor any respect for. You can try to say that's some fantastical trait except of course that all people make those judgments and typically, when they choose to avoid a certain "caliber" of people, they do. Not always, but if you make a conscious effort at avoiding friends who're scumbags you'd be surprised at how few scumbags you count as friends.

You don't owe me any niceties, and I don't take any offense that you didn't give me any.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #178)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:23 AM

181. LOL, your reply is about how you successfully stereotype people who "look" misogynist? Ha ha.

Well, there go all your deeply held beliefs about judging people. Oh jeeze, you are hilarious.
You are all over the map. Next we'll here about how you're a nuclear physicist and international spy.
Seriously, Im putting a fork in you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #181)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:29 AM

185. Uh, making judgments about who you want to be friends with based on their attitudes

is a normal part of everyday life for most people. How that's somehow rare to you would suggest an answer as to how so many find themselves with shitty friends, but it doesn't indict my point of view one iota. There's nothing grandiose about claiming to not have rapist friends, and it certainly doesn't warrant par with nuclear physicist or international spy claims, much as that might seem a humorous - albeit extremely unwarranted and rather absurd - thing to say.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #122)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:55 PM

249. yeah,

but he knows it all and refuses to see that that quote right there says a lot. He doesn't owe anyone in this thread anything, apparently not even respect.

He knows it all and doesn't need to learn anything. He doesn't engage in any behavior that would ever demean a woman. (by women I mean some not all or do I mean all, not some) Just Stow the attitude. He is truly doesn't get why he has received the response he has. Even better he is upset over the word men. Despite being told repeatedly that it was not meant as*all* men. Quite the dismissive one. He really listens to and hears what women are saying and it is all about him. Some people love attention, even if it is negative.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:03 AM

79. Human behavior isn't divided into black-and-white categories. It's a CONTIUUM.

Hence why small slights and insults toward people - women included - can often presage bigger ones. And I *really* don't believe you're as squeaky clean and innocent as your initial post seems to imply - I know I'M sure as hell not, even if I've never directly harmed or abused anyone.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #79)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:23 AM

85. Who said I was "squeaky clean?"

I don't know where the hell some of you are living, but I suggest it's not very civilized if you're hearing so many rapists tell you of their crimes or joking about them. That you don't believe that I've never heard a man joke about rape or tell me of his rape conquests is neither here nor there, as you can't prove that I did and I can't prove that I didn't. But not having raped anyone or having been friends with a rapist is hardly what I'd call "squeaky clean" inasmuch as it'd simply be what many call "normal."

The odd part, though, is that many of you seem so focused on me personally instead of the stereotyping done in the OP. That amazes me. I mean, it's not the worst offense ever, and no one is advocating that the OP be somehow punished for it. But that you all endorse such ignorant ideas which stereotype an entire gender as being "less educated" inasmuch as it requires "lessons" is - in no uncertain terms - wildly hypocritical and ridiculous.

It reminds me of how when women would complain about disparate treatment in the workforce that male bosses would then say she only complained because "females are emotional." In other words, rather than dealing with the problem, they blamed the victim. I wouldn't say I'm a "victim" here, but it's interesting that on the one hand you condemn stereotypes whereas on the other hand they're not so bad. Odd behavior for a progressive.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:15 AM

99. "Who said I was 'squeaky clean'"? You just gave an exaggerated impression of such, that's all.

Almost seems like "protesting too much." Which isn't to suggest that you're a bad person or anything, but merely that your original post came off as defensive.

"I don't know where the hell some of you are living..." I don't think we're even talking about overt violence or abuse, in a lot of cases. But to belabor the point, human behavior is a continuum, where little bad things can lead to big bad things. So the little bad things - casual use of words like "slut," negative generalizations about women - should be questioned and held in check.

I don't think stereotyping and broad-brushing are good things. Don't get me wrong. But I also don't think the OP was necessarily doing so to begin with - I think that's more your overly defensive interpretation.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:35 AM

109. +100000



I think someone is looking for offense and found it.

I can think of NO decent guy I know who would be offended to the point of this poster. They would all say, "yeah, I could always learn more" rather than, "I'm a great guy who never even heard of rape before this thread, but I still know all about it and nanny nanny boo boo YOU can't make me learn any more about it so there!"

It's ridiculous.

If someone had said "all men are ignorant pigs" I would be in the poster's corner. I have posted in support of men when there have been anti-male posts made here and will ALWAYS do so.

But to get offended because someone asks you to LEARN something? PLease.That is manufactured outrage that the poster was trolling for, of that I have no doubt.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #109)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:01 AM

117. Like I said, it's sophistry. Arguing for the sake of arguing.

Which, when it comes to a deadly serious issue like this one, is worthy of an eye-roll at best, and downright offensive at worst.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #117)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:55 AM

142. It's pretty darned offensive to me

He made his point, but since he didn't get the agreement he sought, he began his attack and will not let go.,

It's the TeamsterDem Show for sure.

Sickening, when the topic is so important. But that's what women-haters do. They derail issues important to women and turn themselves into the victims of the "discussion" because some woman didn't parse things to their exact specifications.

Women-haters have no forgiveness, no ability to push past their own fucking ego-maniacal proclivities and ZERO desire to do anything to help anyone but themselves. Help create a safer society? Fuck that! It's always and forever GOT to be about THEM.

Now I'm out to feed horses and get off this hijacked mess.






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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:48 AM

114. Uh, saying I haven't hung around with rapists is hardly giving an impression of prudishness

That you would take it that way is of course your problem, not mine. I never said I was free of sin and had never done anything wrong. I simply said I'd never raped anyone and that I'd never heard a confession thereof. That you'd read "squeaky clean" into that suggests you're reading what you want to read but not exactly what's written.

"little bad things - casual use of words ... should be questioned and held in check." Boy, I couldn't have said it better myself. That of course would apply to offensive stereotypes about whole genders, too, seeing as stereotypes are collections of words which taken in context or sum offend people. But I guess some words are okay, others are not, it all depends on whether or not you agree with what level of offense should be inferred? Or how do we measure which words are offensive and thus taboo?

Look, any statement which demeans an entire gender is a slur and thus should be unacceptable in society. You can bring up my own past all you like but it would ever change that simple fact. You know it, I know it, and everyone in this thread knows it as well. They're just mad that they got called out on stereotyping a group and don't have the integrity to admit that it wasn't the best way to phrase it. It's really a simple admission. Had it been made sooner I would've even sympathized with the OP because everyone has misspoken at one time or another. But this incessant defense of the indefensible is as preposterous as preposterous gets, I'm afraid. And it serves only to point out that for some equality doesn't actually mean equality, it instead means some other thing wherein one side is free to stereotype the other and that's okay. Well, it's not okay, nor is it defensible, much as you and others might try.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #114)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:00 AM

116. I'm sorry, I *still* don't see where they're "stereotyping all men."

And even if they were, so what? Is that anywhere near as bad as what's under discussion - namely traumatic experiences that, to varying degrees, seriously mar people's lives? That's some *serious shit* to say the least. And to be brutally honest, after a certain point posts like yours start to seem silly and belittling.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #116)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:41 AM

134. Yes, it is serious. Your taxonomy of the degrees of offense doesn't diminish what others feel

That you don't think it's of note that women on a progressive board are stereotyping men, then I'm not sure exactly what to say to you other than you probably don't understand progressivism all too well. The OP contains in its title "men need to learn," so it's inherently a topic men will take a look at; it is "their business" as to just what they "need to learn" and don't, wouldn't you say?

You and your cohorts keep trying to whitewash the topic to now have been a rape-only discussion that I so callously hijacked and took way off topic, ignoring entirely the title of the topic itself and thus denying that I as a man should have any say in just what I know or might need to improve on. Rape most certainly is a serious subject, and bigotry is as well. They can both be taken on simultaneously on a discussion board, as we're well-formed adults with fully-functional frontal lobes capable of multitasking and "taking more than one shit at a time," as a Teamster might say.

While you're discussing silly and belittling, you might want to look into an idea offered in this thread which said "even if they were , so what?" People in glass houses ... how's that go?

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #134)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:13 AM

153. How is being "stereotyped" anywhere near as serious as being fucking RAPED???

And yes, now I am starting to get a little angry. At your obtuseness, and your apparently limitless self-centeredness.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #153)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:33 AM

165. I couldn't give two shits about you being angry

I never said being stereotyped is anywhere as serious as being raped. What I said is that both are wrong, and both should be rejected. What part of that are you experiencing difficulty with?

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:48 AM

74. Maybe not such an unreasonable post, but it comes off as awfully self-centered.

Not to mention a bit holier-than-thou.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:01 AM

78. The holier-than-thou part was intentional as I find it holier-than-thou that

the OP acted as though "men need lessons" which implies that we're too stupid on our own to get it, and that she's so much smarter than we are that she's going to teach us. The vast majority of us don't need any lessons to know that rape and supporting it are horrific, but yet the word "men" was used without consideration to the fact that men aren't a universal item.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #78)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:37 AM

110. Again, why so defensive? It seems completely out proportion to any potential harm done you.

I don't really have a particular beef with you, to be honest. I just keep thinking you need to calm down a bit.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #110)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:13 AM

152. The funny part is that you seem to firmly believe that I'm upset

whereas I'm actually quite calm and somewhat entertained at watching the more strident respondents attempt to obfuscate the issue. I'm not sure where you're deriving this great disquiet on my part, but other than being offended by a stereotype I'm actually in quite a good mood.

What's interesting is that I posted what I did, then as other posters assailed me as a liar, one now posting HUGE responses saying "over and over" just like a child would ... through all of that you didn't derive that they should calm down. That's all par for the course, I guess. And as I'd respond to their replies I guess at some point I should have, what?, buckled? Agreed with them? No, we have a disagreement, one I'll not be dissuaded from or bullied out of. But at the same time I'm sitting here grinning at the TV, enjoying some rare time off where my girlfriend is out-of-town so I have the house to myself, in other words quite relaxed and more than calm. So no, my refusal to back down from what I believe isn't anger or even being upset, just a refusal to buckle to an idea that I don't agree with. As they don't agree with me. And the world will keep on spinnin'

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #152)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:17 AM

157. You just contradicted yourself. Either this stuff is serious and important, or it's not.

And if you're not "upset" then, in a way that's even worse. Because that means you've hijacked the thread for the sake of, as I said, pure sophistry.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #157)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:36 AM

166. Man you're either dim or intentionally obtuse to a degree I've never seen before

Guy, you said you thought I needed to calm down, so I responded by telling you that I'm in a very calm state, but that doesn't change my adamant disagreement with what's being done here. If you get hot under the collar every time you disagree with something I question how well life is going for you, as most of us can separate the two. I believe 100% in what I'm saying and that it's offensive to stereotype people. But I'm not not-calm about it. Only a dolt or a simpleton gets all hot and bothered over internet discussions. But that anger-detachment doesn't mean that the disagreement isn't real or not cared about.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #157)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:11 AM

177. and either he's seen not one bit of misogyny in his whole life, or he's worked to avoid associating

with men who display misogyny. But he claims both are true.
Hijacking the thread is bad enough, but expecting people to believe this bullshit is just pathetic.
















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Response to bettyellen (Reply #177)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:23 AM

182. No, that's not what I claimed

I've never said that misogyny doesn't exist. What I said is that I've never raped anyone, never heard a confession of rape except on TV, never myself or had friends describe plying a woman with alcohol, nor have I ever heard a single joke about rape. Wait, I did hear one, except it was about a man getting raped in prison, and another one - so two, both about guys - getting raped God knows where. And I've not heard men diminishing the humanity of women. I've heard the C word, although I don't think I've ever heard it thrown AT a woman (I've heard it a lot but never referencing a woman, like her as an individual ... I've heard the more vulgar usage of that word to imply the body part). And I did hear a joke about women, but it was more about Italian mothers told to me by my mom, so I'm guessing she wasn't diminishing her own humanity.

What I do is to avoid people that I think will cause me problems. Again, I've not been perfectly successful with that. But I have avoided having misogynist friends, and certainly no rapist friends. It's really not all that difficult to understand or believe, as most people tend to choose their friends pretty wisely, and their partners/mates much less so (judging by divorce rates). Given that any mate of mine would be a woman, the errors I've made in that department have never left me with a misogynist, for I'm not even sure a woman could truly be one of those. Perhaps some of you aren't very good at picking friends, I don't know. But I've seen a few responses in this thread from other guys saying that they haven't had the problem either, so all of the attention focused on me seems to be that of you ladies doing, not mine. I merely stated that I haven't seen it (it being admissions of rape or rape tendencies from my friends), and that's not truly all that much of a revelation. That you're all making it into one says a bit more about you than it does me.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:56 PM

34. I've seen good men completely miss the boat on this shit

Notably our own Will Pitt finally had a come to Jesus moment. He's as fine of a progressive feminist guy as they come around here, and after more than ten years here FINALLY noticed the misogynistic swill that's been posted here for all of his 10+ years.
I know he's finally got a reason now that he's a daughter coming. But he's a great example of being clueless to a culture many of us have noted all along.
It happens to the best of men, Odin often talks about how he never took the issue seriously until it happened to a friend.

Jesus ice Christ dudes, stop pretending we're saying the majority are rapists and starting pointless threads defending all men. For once, *just listen* to what the women here are saying instead of imagining things and going off on the defensive. Because you are - whether intentionally or not- hijacking the conversation and saying our experiences and feelings are less valid. And really, FUCK THAT.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:00 PM

35. Oh we have seen plenty if it here.

And all over the net. And among our circle of friends. And in our families. And in the narratives of SO MANY songs, movies, tv shows, etc. And in the courts. And in the legislatures. And in colleges and high.schools and ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS. All over the world. Over and over and over and over...

There's no rape culture though! No such thing! No no no no no!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:40 PM

47. If you're not saying majority then stop using the universal word "men" which means all of them

I don't say "women do/say/act" in certain ways because they don't. Women are a diverse lot of people who act, think, and achieve individually. That you're so comfortable labeling all men and then claiming ignorance is extremely offensive. It's not that hard to say "some men" or something like that. But instead you stereotype us all and then expect that we roll over and take it. Sorry but I refuse. That you're doing it in the first place is the offense, not me for noticing it.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:29 AM

49. I know, that galls me too every time I see it.

For one reason, because every man who's offended enough at being repeatedly labeled a potential rapist, is one more who possibly will just decide becoming involved in discussions or raising awareness just isn't worth it. Stereo-types that are that hurtful, insulting and ignorant don't do anyone any favours when we're all in this together. Or, we should be.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:14 AM

52. Where did any woman here say the majority of men were potential rapists?

The closest thing I ever saw was women saying at certain times they unfortunately felt they needed to be careful around any men they didn't know because they were somewhere remote and possibly very vulnerable. Unfortunate? Very. Sterotyping all men as rapists? Not in the least! In fact it's just exercising the same "common sense" advocated here by those sooo offended by doing any awareness/ advocacy directed at men.
Dayum- women seem to have few "approved" options except to STFU. Nice.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:30 AM

55. Really??

Since when does not my not seeing the need for broad-brush stereo-typing against MOST men, who would no more take the side of a rapist-pig as you or I would, equal telling women to shut the fuck up? Where did I say that? Point it out.


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Response to polly7 (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:45 AM

56. I'm saying these particular men's FALSE claims of broad brushing

Are succeeding in shutting down/ derailing the conversation. (That's the STFU)

Women here have NOT been saying the majority of men are rapists. Yet we're treated to OP after OP derailing the conversation because people here think those OPs are reacting to something that ACTUALLY was said here. Twisted.

Sorry- I not participating in conversations based on a bullshit premise anymore. There is no broadbrush.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:08 AM

150. You are supporting someone who hijacked this thread for their own

self-aggrandizement.

Yay you.

Nowhere in the OP or the blog does it say "all men" anything.

If I say "Children should learn to tie their shoes" that is in no way implying that NO children know how to tie their shoes.

Trying to turn the OP into a man-bashing statement is just ridiculous and is intended to distract from the issue.




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Response to polly7 (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:20 AM

158. It's not so much about you. More about the poster who took over this whole thread

because he couldn't apparently couldn't *stand* the thought that he was maybe, possibly, just a little, being "stereotyped." Almost as though that were just as serious as sexual assault itself.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:27 AM

68. Very well said

Although thankfully I'm not petty enough to ignore the very serious issue of rape and its attendant cousin (well, cause) - that of some men who think they're somehow "better" or "superior" to women - simply because someone was angry and lashed out at me verbally. I fully support all humans as my equals and I always will, even if a few of them offend me and lump me in with undesirables.

If I couldn't take a little criticism I damn sure wouldn't be a Teamster.

Hopefully no one gets too riled up about arguments here on DU to the point where they cease supporting the broader cause, as that would be a true shame.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:07 AM

51. WTF- I said some good men.... Then addressed the dudes with BS ops

That claimed women said all men / most men rape.
Didn't happen. Not ever. Get past it.
And you managed to make it about yourselves again. Wow, shocking!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:03 AM

70. It wasn't in reference to that particular post, rather to the broader theme

you've defended all night long, that of it being ok to stereotype men by condoning statements such as "men need lessons" which, through its very phrasing, inherently means ALL men, otherwise it'd say "some men."

Language is telling insofar as a person's usage of it. The way a person phrases something sometimes says a lot about their internal workings. Other times it simply denotes their meaning. In this case, had the person meant to denote "some men," that's a phrasing that most in progressive circles understand and use when finding it necessary to talk about other groups. If they don't limit their phrase's scope it can often be a simple misstatement easily corrected by saying "I meant to say ..." but in this case there is no such correction, instead an incessant and heated defense of what is truly indefensible: stereotyping a gender.

Spin it any way you want, but we both know stereotyping a gender - either one - is wrong and almost universally inaccurate as well.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:05 PM

37. i have often found your "rape culture" posts to be accusatory and offensive

i disagree with nothing in this post. it is like staying silent when someone says n****r to acquiesce to the demeaning of women through silence. i am with you 100 percent.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:07 PM

38. Well thank fucking goddess a man finally said it nicely enough. nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:05 PM

43. K&R

You don't even have to wait for them to self report: "I heard a guy got arrested for having sex with a woman that was passed out." If his response is anything shy of "Good. Fuck that guy." he's either a rapist or willing to rape someone.

Rape apologists and redefiners and deniers aren't fooling anyone. We know good and damned well why they're splitting those hairs.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:08 AM

96. k&r nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:12 AM

98. These rape threads make DU feminists look petty

 

But I will make it easy for you.

I am 46 year old man. I never raped anyway. I have never been in or even heard of a discussion about the positives of rape. I was never taught by my male elders how to rape. I once had a guitar teacher who was later convicted of sexual assault; that is less the 4% of all the males I have met.

I will admit that I never thought about how to prevent rapes. I also never thought about how to prevent thefts, muggings, murders or any host of crimes that didn't affect me at the moment. I guess I always figured that it was the police's job.

I don't think that makes me a rapist or a rapist sympathiser.

It makes me pretty much like every other male who SOME HERE AT DU want to stereotype into something they are not.

But they are making it easier to stereotype them. But if I were to write shit at the same nasty level as the rape accusers I would be booted off DU in a heartbeat. Because we do live in a society of double standards, and they are not all favoring to men.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #98)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:30 AM

105. Not as petty as some of the responses on this thread (not necessarily yours). Just saying...

Look, I'm a guy, I have a relatively foul mouth, I have no problem frankly discussing sex (in private, with close friends). But even I realize that our culture is suffused with fucked-up attitudes toward sex, and really, just fucked-up attitudes period.

One final time (just 'cause I said it 3 times already) - human behavior is a CONTINUUM, ranging from saintly kindness and altruism, to Hitler-like (or Ted Bundy-like) evil. Most things most people do fall somewhere in between these two extremes. So we all need to watch out for the darker sides of ourselves and our friends/acquaintances/etc. Again, just saying...

*Edit: changed "against" to again."

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #105)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:30 AM

186. thanks for the sanity and honest take on things

for the life of me, I don't understand the lengths some guys go to in pretending that this shit does't happen.
I understand many never gave it much thought, but why they need to go to such lengths simply to negate what women say they have seen and experienced. Creepy stuff.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #186)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:59 PM

239. I'm beginning

to think if they admit it happens, they have to look in the mirror and have an honest discussion.

BTW your posts and seabeyond's redqueen's, tsiyu's and many, many others, including SOME men's are wonderful. . Thank you.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #239)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:11 PM

240. I'm beginning to think you are right too.... One warning sign it took me a while to learn

was to watch out for guys who don't listen respectfully to me. Whether they get angry at a "No" or try to turn it into a yes, or hear what they want to hear instead of what you are saying- it's a big red flag. I've dated that guy more than once. He's always shocked to find out you;re leaving, or he didn't know you well at all, because HE was happy. These are the ones that end up not letting go, stalking, etc.... ANd yeah, some of the reactions here are similar. I feel like they are trying to steamroll women into approving their take on things with NO attempt to listen.
Just the amount of threads started in defense of men against broadbrush statements that never happened. These guys are more invested in their raw emotional reactions than what is being discussed here. It's ugly and disrespectful, and I'm not going to pretend it's not.
Anyway- thanks for the compliment. There are mostly good people here. It appears to be a severe troll infestation, perhaps because the RW sites are not so much fun these days. LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #240)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:00 PM

243. the sad part is

they got what they wanted. Instead of women and men sharing ideas and experiences in an effort to to come up with real life solutions, we have to have a battle over the word men.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #243)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:06 PM

244. oh, they'd find another excuse to take over the conversation.....

I was honestly thinking of starting another thread where we refused to be derailed by men's concerns.
but I know they'd fight like hell to make them selves the center of the whole thing. Just a few jerks, but enough to spoil the whole thing.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #98)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:31 AM

200. Rape is not a petty issue

and there is NO ONE on this thread accusing anyone of being a rapist. You are making that up.

What we do have in this thread is an attempt by ONE ego-maniac - who happens to be male - to make the thread about how the use of a word in a manner he dislikes is vastly more important than how men - even great guys like you - can educate themselves about rape.

Men get raped, too, and the same standards apply to educating all of us about how to stop it. Just because you haven't experienced rape does not mean that it isn't an epidemic. If raising awareness of this issue is "petty" to you, that's exactly what the post is addressing. It should be an important issue to ALL of us.

Now I'll go put on my bonnet and be a good girl and sit and tat some lace so you don't get all nervous about us uppity wymmins........













NOT.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:31 PM

260. We have rape culture proponents right here at DU, men who post stuff like this:

Some women do like to “be taken”. I have known a few, and one of them told me once that it made her feel less guilty about liking the sex. I remember thinking about how messed up that was, but I blamed the double standards of our society, not myself for participating in the “sex game” she openly desired. I suppose if you had been watching us from the closet, you may well have thought I was forcing myself on her. But I didn't rape her. At least I don’t believe I did.


Yes, someone wrote that.

That person has full posting privileges here. And plenty of the MRAs here consider condemnation of that person to be completely unwarranted.

Rape culture and apologia not only live, but thrive here.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:32 PM

261. Please provide your honest reaction to this language:

Some women do like to “be taken”. I have known a few, and one of them told me once that it made her feel less guilty about liking the sex. I remember thinking about how messed up that was, but I blamed the double standards of our society, not myself for participating in the “sex game” she openly desired. I suppose if you had been watching us from the closet, you may well have thought I was forcing myself on her. But I didn't rape her. At least I don’t believe I did.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #98)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:57 AM

269. Discussing rape makes feminists look petty?

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:13 AM

121. After reading this op and the responses I find myself thinking of what happens when

a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs. The one(s) hit are usually yelping the loudest!

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Response to retread (Reply #121)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:24 AM

183. Nicely put. nt

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Response to retread (Reply #121)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:43 AM

189. very apt. i like. nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:48 AM

138. +1, thanks. nt.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:00 AM

193. This particular thread

 

could use some more good DU men to support or find something positive about this OP. The one, the few, who is (are) being so cacophonous in their rigid comments is extremely unpleasant and I'm quite certain unnerving to the many, many, many women here who have been verbally, physically, or sexually assulted. (or all of the above)

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Response to Helen Reddy (Reply #193)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:16 AM

196. People insisting upon fair treatment are often "cacophonous" and seen as "rigid"

by those endorsing and in many ways justifying the unfair treatment by blaming the person who speaks up as opposed to the offender. But yes, let's insist this is all about me and that I'm the one who's wrong for not standing idly by as a bigot stereotypes me into a group of rapists. Yeah, I'm the problem. Good one.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #196)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:25 AM

198. What would be "FAIR" sir,

 

is if ALL MEN WOULD STOP RAPING.

Nothing short of that would be "fair".

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Response to Helen Reddy (Reply #198)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:42 AM

205. I agree. That would be more than fair, it'd be human. And about past time that they do, too. nt

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #196)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:39 AM

203. You're seriously calling the author of this blog post a bigot?

Who stereotyped YOU into a group of rapists?

Ever stop for a second to consider that IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU? Fucking hell, why did I take you off ignore... this thread is so much better without your contributions.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #203)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:50 AM

209. he read the blog post all wrong and just cannot admit it.

at first he was insulted to think someone might imply most men have been in the company of a rapist.
now it's morphed into calling all men (including him) rapists. I don;t think he ever bothered to click the link, but instead endeavored to shut down discussion.
so much false outrage, he's having a hard time keeping track of the why.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #209)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:20 PM

219. Nope, read it just as it's written

and what it says is that men need a lesson in how to not support other men who rape people. Some men may indeed need that lesson, but not all men do. That's all I've ever said, and try as you might - and boy are you ever - you simply can't refute that very simply point. So now you've devolved into saying I don't understand the topic, meanwhile it's you and your cohort who're guilty of that very offense. I guess it's the ole "accuse your opponent of that which you're guilty of, it'll take the heat off you" approach, but it's a bit shopworn these days. What you might try at some point is reasoned, rational, factual discussion. If you were capable of such a thing, that is.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #203)


Response to Helen Reddy (Reply #193)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:21 PM

220. No reason to be unnerve.

The toxic mess this thread has become is do to knee jerk reactions of dueling insecurities. If people would take a moment, settle their primal brain and activate their higher rationing, they would see they are talking pass each other on many thing. Also, and though I don't buy in to "man are from Mars and women are from Venus crap" studies do show that the genders in general, process and use language in a bit different ways. If you study the thread, you can see fights breaking out on the basis of small different interpretation of a word or phrase.

Anyways, I am a man, hopefully a good DU man, and I felt the OP post was meaningful and enlightening. When I was younger I knew guys that was into a culture of rape. I didn't know they were doing it at the time, nor would I every have sex without 100 percent consent. I never went to parties with them, nor was I ever with them socially except on a couple after work ,have a drink occasions.The idiots, would say things, tell sick women hating jokes, and make lewd comments about women, but not too often. Not to me at least, they were usually one offs, side comments, I wouldn't react and they wouldn't continue, and I was too young to know the toxicity of it.

Here is what the article is missing: what those jerks were doing was pinging me with their side comments to see if I was "their kind of guy." When I didn't return the correct feedback they didn't continue. See these guys live in a closed bubble and don't let the 'non-oriented' into their sick world.

Victims of rape needs all the compassion, especially self compassion, that they can handle. Not only should guys call out rapist when we find them and we should call out sick jokes, comments and memes. Everyone should totally support victims without judgment so they are comfortable with reporting. Guys need to report when they know about others.

Finally, there are women out there who indulge rapist with friendships, jokes, comments and memes too. I am sure we all know some. So it is not all a men responsibility, the culture of rape isn't a all male thing; although men are the vast majority.

This problem is huge, will be hard to fight, but lets stop arguing and gather together to fight this beast.

Edit: multiple style, grammar, and mechanical mistakes. Some still exist, but typing on smart phones suck.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #220)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:30 PM

223. Re: pinging

I thought that's what he was saying in this part:

Change the culture. We are not going to pull six or ten or twelve million men out of the U.S. population over any short period, so if we are going to put a dent in the prevalence of rape, we need to change the environment that the rapist operates in. Choose not to be part of a rape-supportive environment. Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk.


And sorry, but when anyone tries to counter this message, we have to fight them. This has gone on far too long already.

We can't afford to humor those who would water down or even worse, try to counter this message.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #223)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:58 PM

230. it makes me think of my cousin, I remember how he'd have people wincing with some of the nasty shit

that came out of his mouth. He;d pick up on it, and always try to mitigate the nastiness somehow. But he was an expert manipulator, big time alpha male party animal and didn't seem to lose many friends.
I think his peak was at a family dinner at Thanksgiving, when he talked about a gal (disabled with drink) who had "pulled a train". When someone called him on how disturbing his amusement (and possible participation) was, he claimed the girl didn't mind because she'd already fucked the most vile stupid guy they knew (a friend), so what was the big deal if it was 5-6 more guys? Her rep was already trashed for having bad judgment to try and date his friend. Fascinating rationalization. For dessert his girlfriend described a vacation where she passed out and cant remember how she ended up in bed the next day, and an abortion she had. This at a family dinner meeting her date's parents and family for the first time! So I'd say that was a crazy little culture clash, to say the least.
I had long known my cousin was a sociopath, but I think that Thanksgiving was the first time my brothers were clued in. He's a raging alcoholic now, barely functional since his forties, and I'm glad of it. The less he's out and about, the better.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #220)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:38 PM

226. but you see, many guys will argue that the pocket of culture you stumbled upon doesn't exist at all

and maybe it's because they were obviously stand up guys, and the dudes hid it well from them. But maybe they just like to argue for the sake of shutting down discussion/ hearing their own voices to the exclusion of others. It seems a lot of the latter here.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #220)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:03 PM

236. I think the pinging is insecurity

And I do think a lot of men who find themselves within that culture are insecure. They need mutual support because, on a basic sublevel, they know the way they take advantage of women is a weasel move. I believe most people have a conscience, and that conscience has to be weaseled out of in order to rationalize obtaining a desire.

So you get a kind of "this is ok, right?"

After all, look how uncomfortable they get when you don't reply with affirmation. Lots of quiet, subject changing, averted gaze.

It's telling.

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Response to Helen Reddy (Reply #193)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:34 PM

233. Okay, I hate rapists...

...and the more respectable they are, the more I hate them. Anytime one of these self-important men forces (in any sense of that word) himself on someone else, it makes all men look bad. I cringe every time I hear about a rape and subjectively feel violent toward the rapist. I don't want to feel guilty by association. Also, my own masculinity is constructed in a way that creates a duty to protect women and children from violence. I realize that is a bit paternal, but that is my gut feeling on the matter.

please see and comment on my post further down the thread. one of my relatives committed a sex offense and it really put me on the spot because the rest of the family was supportive to him. I think he was guilty.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:34 AM

201. In spite of the fact that only 4-8% of men rape,

when I am out in the world, I assume all the men I encounter are potential rapists. Even though I know they all aren't, what I don't know is which ones are. The downside of trusting the wrong person is a bigger risk than I want to take.

It's self-preservation, guys. Don't take it personally. It's not like while I'm talking to a guy I'm wondering, "Is this guy a rapist?" It's not specific like that. Instead, in the back of your mind is a constant awareness of your environment, the current situation & the mood/behavior of those around you. There is a necessity to be ready to get the hell out if things start to go bad.

I don't think this is uncommon for a lot of women when they are out, especially when they are alone. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of fathers who have told their daughters to do the same thing - 1) never trust anyone, 2) pay attention, 3) get the hell out if you feel uncomfortable & 4) there is safety in numbers.


on edit, this:

...brokering a peace with the fear is part of their lives that we can never fully understand.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #201)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:48 AM

208. One male 'genius' on DU said since he didn't personally think that women felt any more fear than men

in similar circumstances, then it must not be true.

*sigh*

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:54 AM

211. hey redqueen

never did thank you

K&R lol ( the k many, many times )

Sorry your thread got derailed.

I was going to suggest reposting it but I've kind of enjoyed the shapeshifter who showed up.

This is an important thread, and I just try to remember, first they mock you, then they fight you and then you win.

We need to eradicate the rape culture, even if so many wish to pretend it doesn't exist.

Thanks again.









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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #211)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:57 AM

213. Thank you, Tsiyu.

It's really, really hard sometimes. Especially when it's other feminists doing the mocking and fighting.

Thanks for helping in the fight. Someday, the acknowledgement of rape culture will be widespread enough that we can start a large scale challenge to it. For now, I guess we have to just keep doing what we can, and try not to be hurt when our sisters join in the fight against us.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #213)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:34 PM

225. There are some awesomely great guys upthread, though

and that makes it worth the haters and mockers.

I take this moment to thank the guys who support this OP.

I love you all muchly and appreciate your input.

As for the trolls, they are such a menace to the issue of rape, but every time they post they expose their underbellies a little bit more.

"I never saw rape....I know all about rape."

" I never said I had nothing to learn about rape - I don't need to learn a stinking thing about rape."

"I never said my insult over a word was equal to rape - the criminal use of the word "men" is equal in horror to rape because it effects ME ME ME ME ME ME ME."



Makes me dizzy reading all that circular misogynist language!

They go back and forth on their see-saw, but every time they look a little more stupid to the decent people of DU.

I appreciate all you do, tirelessly fighting to raise awareness. It IS working, I promise.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #225)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:20 PM

232. Yeah, a lot of awesome male allies... and some new ones too.



Thanks again...

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #211)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:26 PM

253. And thank YOU, Tsiyu

for trying to engage and educate someone who obviously just doesn't get it.

Best wishes.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #253)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:57 PM

255. ...

Thanks, thucythucy





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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:29 PM

222. I guess we need a new article too "Meet the Pettifoggers"--

"This man will split hairs over a word for several hours and claim it is just as bad as being raped. In the time he wasted on this non-issue, he could have written several letters to Congressmen about his support for VAWA or any other kind of feminist legislature, but no! Joined on the field of battle, he let his horse take several dumps and left clasping his Cracker Jack prize like gold laurels. Victory is his! This is Sparta!!!!!"

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #222)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:39 PM

227. lol




my take exactimente





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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #222)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:44 PM

228. Beauty!

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:33 PM

224. K&R

I realize we fight a lot but I am tired of and angry at what has been going on lately and this needs to be supported.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:52 PM

229. what about relatives?

I'd drop a "friend" in an instant if I had good reason to suspect him. Fortunately, I'm reasonably sure none of my friends would tolerate that kind of thing either.

Unfortunately, it's a little harder with relatives. I never made excuses. I never really doubted his guilt. I was a bit surprised by the deal the defense was able to work out with the state ("uncooperative" underage victim). He did his jail time (not much) and is on probation. Plus, he can't vote, own a firearm, or have any real position of responsibility. The family business doesn't want him. I will never condone a 19-yr.-old having sexual conduct with a 14-yr.-old. I just don't see a reason to ignore him forever.

What do you all think?

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #229)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:17 PM

241. Family is tricky. I'd base my reactions around his current situation. Is he still having exploitive

relationships with women, has he learned a lesson and turned himself around? I do like to believe in redemption.
Families can be tricky, and I'm guessing at the minimum I'd tolerate him at get togethers even if I felt the need to avoid him otherwise.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #241)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:09 PM

245. Well,...

...he blew a long engagement by screwing around on the side. And he works at a strip club (admittedly his career choices were rather limited) in some capacity. (The dancers are women). He's dating one of them. He plead guilty to a non-sex offense, so there isn't one on his record or any registration requirement (if you are wondering why that place would hire him).

So no, although he has probably learned to avoid illegal situations.

On the plus side, at least he isn't a lawyer like I used to be. Normally, I would not fault someone for working at a strip joint or dating one of the dancers. But, given his background....

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #245)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:23 PM

246. well, it sounds like he's a run of the mill asshole.

my family has plenty. I;d say its okay to see him if you can steer clear of getting pulled into his bullshit.

i have a cousin who was just disgusting around women, chronic liar, three timing, very nasty and possessive. Laughed about friends gang raping a girl- at Thanksgving dinner. He was very handsome, manipulative and charming. Really fooled them good, and used to try and use us to gain cred with the ladies (see my sisters and female cousins love me!!)
More than once I saw them looking around trying to reconcile what signs they had that he was a horrible guy, vs the happy stable picture he tried to put forward to woo them. Once or twice I could't take it. Told the girl to trust her instincts, because apprehensions she had was more than valid. I just didn't want to unwittingly be part of his dog and pony show, LOL.
I've divorced myself from the role of enabler, and happier for it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #246)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:36 PM

247. Good for you!

My wife's cousin is a lot younger than me, so we really don't travel in the same circles. Just family gatherings. Superficially, a nice guy the rest of the time, just seriously lacking in impulse control. What really got on my nerves was how when he was indicted, the rest of the family was apologizing for him--he was framed, the victim is a liar, she's crazy (which actually makes it worse), the mother who discovered them in bed together didn't really see anything, he would never do that kind of thing--blah, blah, blah. My thinking was "That's at least Gross Sexual Imposition under the law." (Ohio has a fuzzy gray area for statutory rape--it gets worse the greater the age difference and the younger the victim.)

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #247)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:52 PM

248. yep, assholes drag everyone into their messy lives one way or another if you let them

You have to keep your distance to get out unscathed.
I'd rather save my energy for the nice family I've created for myself.

I only warned the girls who seemed self possessed and bright enough to already have some concerns. He could be quite the bullshitter, and I could;t blame them for being dazzled- but I also noticed some flicker of doubt. I never had to give any details, but not sticking by and not pretending I was happy for her was all they needed to trust their own instincts.

He also dated a lot of head cases that would probably not believe me because he was such a catch, or wild girls who thought the lies and infidelities, all the drama, was somehow exciting. Those were too far gone to help any. I'd just get dragged in, and I wanted no part of it.

Good luck with your own family!

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:18 PM

252. Thank you again, Redqueen, for this excellent

and extremely important OP.

I thanked you before, way up in the thread, but some of the posts in this thread since then have been so infuriatingly obtuse and mean-spirited that I wanted to say again how much I appreciate the way you put yourself out there, time and again, sharing the realities of rape and sexual violence, and posting ways ALL of us can and should strive to confront and end them.

Rape culture is real. It permeates nearly every aspect of our larger culture, enabling and sometimes even condoning the most horrific abuses of women, children, and men. As much as some of us might want to deny it, as much as some of those who are complicit try to define themselves out of their own responsibility, we are all adrift in this culture, and all of us are accountable for how (even IF) we choose to respond.

And so I just wanted to post again to say how much I appreciate what you do for DU, and to give a shout out to you and to seabeyond and to all the good feminists here who put up with so much BS, just trying to get a point across.

Whenever I come to DU I always check out everything you post. In fact, it's one of the main reasons I keep returning.

Best wishes.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:22 PM

254. The thread is

very revealing about how some men fail to realize the domino effect of how words affect behavior. They most likely can connect the dots from the line that Obama is going to take all your guns faslehood to the high gun sales. But they refuse to connect the dots as to how misogynic language and jokes help create an environment for a rapist to feel comfortable in.

The pedophiles in the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts would never have been so successful, if the organizations did not create an environment for them to feel comfortable enough to to violate children. Yes this is an extreme example.

Some men do get it, and instinctively or through learning do draw the line. Thank you for that. And thank you for sharing how you came to that realization. Thank you for not degrading the victim’s view of how they perceive some actions because you personally didn't see it ever happen.

I chose to share my story, because it was a fit for the OP. How the one guy had me against a wall and his friends were laughing as if it was funny. From a young age this kid had a support system for his vile actions. What if his friends had instead pulled him away and let him know what he was doing was not cool, would he ever had ended up in prison for rape? How many women did he rape before he finally got caught. Unfortunately these are questions that I will never know the answer to.


Redqueen, I agree just telling some men not to rape won't work. After reading thread after thread in the past few days and the GOP politics through the summer, it seems some men have to learn the definition of rape. I hope the men who do get it, do not get upset that we have to teach to the lowest common denominator.

There is a culture (and by culture I don't mean man-culture or men as a whole culture) that surrounds and in essence protects these men from a young age. Their education has to start young, way before they hit college and study results like this become the norm.

It has to be pointed out to them that by being demeaning to a woman with sexual slurs dehumanizes all women. That is what the predator among them feeds off from to justify their own actions.

Will it work with every boy, no. I suspect it would work with enough to start making a difference.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:47 PM

263. One thing I'd ask, don't women have just as much of a responsibility to combat it too?

I've been to bar trivia multiple times where a team thinks it's funny to pick the name "No means yes, yes means anal". These teams always have both male and female members. The trivia DJ's, both male and female, have never called them out on it (and I've seen them call teams out on other distasteful things).

I agree this is a problem. But it's not entirely male enabled, IMO.

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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #263)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:55 PM

265. Yes, rape culture is fueled by both women and men

jokes like that, questioning what a rape victim was wearing, shaming women for sexual activity, etc., are done by both women and men and it has to stop regardless of who does it.

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