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Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:50 AM

NORMAL people DON'T need to debate what is rape and what isn't.

Please... GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK.

Guys... here's a clue...

When she's taking HER OWN clothes off, totally coherent, RACING you to nudity, breathless and almost giggling... You're (almost) "In Like Flint" (EVEN then, maybe she just wants to roll in the sheets naked, and NOT have sex).

In ANY other situation? You are PROBABLY a rapist.

There BETTER BE AN UNQUALIFIED "Let's do it NOW" (from HER lips of course) before you proceed.

Beyond that... you're quite possibly forcing yourself on someone who wants to "make out" and nothing more.

As a Father, I'd kill you without a second thought for crossing that line, and gladly suffer the consequences.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's, raised by people who grew up in the 50's and 60's. I DIDN'T HAVE TO BE TOLD what was right and what wasn't when it came to relationships between boys and girls, be they children or teenagers.

How the fuck is this even up for debate?

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Reply NORMAL people DON'T need to debate what is rape and what isn't. (Original post)
cherokeeprogressive Nov 2012 OP
CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2012 #1
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #2
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #4
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #5
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #6
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #7
rDigital Nov 2012 #10
DevonRex Nov 2012 #3
renate Nov 2012 #22
Lars39 Nov 2012 #8
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #9
rDigital Nov 2012 #11
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #12
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #13
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #17
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #18
rDigital Nov 2012 #14
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #15
renate Nov 2012 #23
rDigital Nov 2012 #31
rDigital Nov 2012 #36
gollygee Nov 2012 #35
rDigital Nov 2012 #37
ANOIS Nov 2012 #21
NashvilleLefty Nov 2012 #16
rateyes Nov 2012 #27
davidn3600 Nov 2012 #19
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #20
davidn3600 Nov 2012 #26
nomorenomore08 Nov 2012 #24
nomorenomore08 Nov 2012 #25
HockeyMom Nov 2012 #28
MineralMan Nov 2012 #30
HockeyMom Nov 2012 #33
RegieRocker Nov 2012 #29
DevonRex Nov 2012 #32
Paladin Nov 2012 #34
DevonRex Nov 2012 #39
Lightbulb_on Nov 2012 #38

Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:59 AM

1. I agree completely, my dear cherokeeprogressive!

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:02 AM

2. YES NORMAL PEOPLE DO...

We live in a rape culture.

- In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds foundref 5)

51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;

87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;

65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

- In a survey of male college students:

35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).

One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)


http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:05 AM

4. thank you for posting this

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:08 AM

5. You are welcome. Survey after survey reveals that both males & females believe

under certain conditions, it is okay to rape.

I am so sick and frustrated by the denial.

The OP that this is a response to is honest. This OP is not.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:10 AM

6. you know what? i don't believe that survey. you can pull out all the surveys you like, i

 

don't believe that 3/4 of high school boys think rape is ok if they spend lots of money on a girl. or that 55% of girls feel the same.

nah.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:12 AM

7. Okey doke. There are many surveys cited in the link.

I've little doubt that the question was about coercion and a woman's obligation to "put out" - which is rape.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:15 AM

10. That makes my heart hurt. : ( Thank you for posting this. nt

 

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:05 AM

3. My father would have felt the same way.

I never told him what happened to me. First, I was too young to know what had happened, exactly. Didn't know the words for it. But I knew it was bad and that my father would kill the person who did it.

He would have done it whenever I told him. My father died when I was in my 20s and he never knew. I thank god for that.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:54 AM

22. so much sadness in so few words

I am so sorry.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:12 AM

8. Because every one is not your clone, nor raised by who raised you.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:15 AM

9. exactly

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:17 AM

11. My first and only daughter was just born 13 days ago. I feel you Cherokee, for real. nt

 

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Response to rDigital (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:26 AM

12. You will raise her well to assert boundries in her own fashion.

It kills me to see my daughter stomping down the street with a look of power on her face in order to non-verbally reject the sexual come-ons before they are even stated (she is 6'1" and model beautiful) but it also makes me proud that she has a strategy to stop harassment before it starts.

What I really wish is that she could walk down the street without the shield. That she could be her lovely casual self without the hard as nails attitude.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:32 AM

13. One of the saddest days of my life was when I had to tell my daughter

you are a target simply for being a girl. She has been told to only wear one ear bud so she can listen and be aware of her surroundings. She has been told to periodically look all around including in back of her to be aware of her surroundings. She has been told never to walk or jog down a wooded jogging path by herself. That is one thing that gets me. I don't understand women who jog by themselves usually with an MP3 player in their ears down an isolated wooded area. My daughter has been told never to do that. I too wish my daughter cold walk down the street without those guards up. She has also been taught that if she is going to a party to never let anybody else make her drink unless she is at a bar and it is a professional bartender behind the bar making her drink. She has been told never to leave her drink alone while she goes to the bathroom. There are so many it is hard to remember. I probably forgot to tell her everything. I better make sure I have told her everything I want to tell her. Next year is college. I am scared to death.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:20 AM

17. I totally understand that fear. I was sitting on the front porch around 11 PM having a smoke and I

heard my daughter's voice coming from a distance singing on the top of her lungs, "I love you babeee...And if it's quite all right, I need you babeee... To warm my lonely nights..." and I jumped up and ran toward her saw her quickly leaping down the sidewalk and when we met up she told me that a car had been slowly following her and one of her strategies for deflecting a possible predator is acting like a total crazy person.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:25 AM

18. You have one smart, strong, and powerful daughter there

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:47 AM

14. It's a work in progress. We're young parents (29 & 26). My partner is one tough lady.

 

It's good to hear that you taught your daughter strength. We're going to teach the baby the best that we can.

I told her about the OP, she gave me a horrified look and was astonished that something like this was even posted on DU.

Here's the baby BTW....I'm gloating....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=236702

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Response to rDigital (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:04 AM

15. Aww! So wonderful that you have the opportunity to raise a human being!

I enjoyed it immensely and at each age I would proclaim, "This is the best age ever!" I have so many great memories of my quirky girl and, at age 22, we are pretty good friends AND she is close to many of our friends and I am close to many of hers.

My advise, don't sweat the little things. Let her sleep with her shoes on or her favorite hat. Don't make her afraid of you via probable punishment. Talk, talk, talk, with much hugging and affection even though you think she is too little to understand. She'll grow into understanding. When my daughter was 4, our friends took us aside and said that they thought we weren't "harsh" enough with our daughter... that we should make her behave based on negative consequences... that we talked to her too much. Within 2-3 years, each and every one of those friends apologized because they saw the girl that didn't have the capacity to make wise decisions at age 4 grow into a girl making decisions based not on fear but on reason.

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Response to rDigital (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:56 AM

23. somehow I missed that thread

Congratulations! She is so miraculous and so beautiful!

You are going to have so much fun!

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Response to renate (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:35 AM

31. Thanks! We are having fun, just not a lot of sleep! LoL : ) nt

 

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Response to renate (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:25 PM

36. whoops, wrong reply! nt

 

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Response to rDigital (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:56 PM

35. Congrats!

Beautiful.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:26 PM

37. Thanks : ) nt

 

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Response to rDigital (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:41 AM

21. I missed it first time around, but read the whole story on your link!

How exciting even these many days later! And how wonderful of you to share, & to have everyone pulling for you!

Congratulations!

I echo the prediction of all the wonderful moments you have in your future. Your life is beautiful & you are forever changed for the better.

P.S. It won't always be easy, but so rewarding.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:16 AM

16. Cherokee - seriously?

I mean, if anyone would know that the White Man Lies would be the Cherokee. (Full disclosure, I am white but my Grandmother swears that I am also part Cherokee.)

In your society and beliefs - no, it wouldn't be up for debate. Also, Gay Couples wouldn't be up for debate.

You weren't raised in the same society I was. I would prefer yours, but I didn't have a choice.

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Response to NashvilleLefty (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:30 AM

27. People have known what rape is since the beginning of time. Perhaps some societies

led by men have not punished it, but is has never been up for debate...its only been justified by people who wanted to do it and not feel bad about it.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:19 AM

19. The legal definition of rape is quite clear

The absence of consent.

Each state has different laws and various degrees for a variety of circumstances. But the overall legal philosophy is that rape is when one party does not consent, or is unable to consent, to the sexual act.

And that is how the vast majority of our society views it.

Basically what you are saying is that any time a male initiates sexual contact, it should be considered rape. That's insane. The way the law works is that if the woman is sober and awake, she needs to give some type of indication that she doesn't want the act to occur. If she's screaming "no," that's rape. If she's trying to push the guy away, that's rape. But if she's a willing participant and gives no indication of trying to stop the act, every court and jury in the land will consider that consensual sex.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:23 AM

20. young girls can be emotionally broken down

I started out saying no several, several times. But over the course of a few hours was emotioanlly manipulated and coerced into doing something I didn't want to do.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:29 AM

26. well....

According to the RAINN organization (Rape Abuse Incest National Network), there are 3 main questions to determine if a sexual encounter is considered "rape" or not:
1. Are the participants old enough to consent?
2. Do both people have the capacity to consent?
3. Did both participants agree to take part?
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape

First off, the age of consent is quite clear by law. So the answer to question 1 is easy. The second question deals with how sober you are. If you are hammered drunk, you cannot consent. If you are high on drugs, you cannot consent. If someone slipped something in your drink and you are out of it...you cannot consent. That question is quite clear. The 3rd one CAN be a bit more vague. Since yes some women who are being raped don't always resist physically. Legally consent or non-consent is determined by actions that led up to the event or any verbal indication.

But it's important to note though that there is no law against a guy being a douchebag asshole. If he manipulates a woman he doesn't really care about into agreeing to sex, that's not really illegal. There does need to be some personal responsibility here. Every one in this world (male and female) need to choose their friends and relationships wisely. If a girl hangs out and get into a relationship with this type of guy, what does she expect to happen? I understand when we are young we tend to think we are immortal and bad things can only happen to other people. That's the typical youth mentality. We all went through that phase. And we eventually learn we are wrong. And that's life. That's maturity. We learn from mistakes. Some guys out there are looking for no good. And yes there are girls out there too that are up to no good.

Look at those guys on that Jersey Shore show on MTV. They go to bars and bring girls home, have sex, and then kick them out. Are they raping those girls? No. They are a bunch of clowns and assholes, but they aren't rapists.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:07 AM

24. The law is the law. But law and ethics don't always intersect.

And just because something isn't criminally actionable doesn't make it "right." I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just making what I feel is an important distinction.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:14 AM

25. I agree that there's less of a gray area involved than some seem to think.

I think that most guys (and the occasional woman) who pull that kind of shit, are well aware of the leverage they have in certain situations. They know they're the one in control and that they can more or less do what they want (for the moment). And if the other person clearly isn't enthusiastic, or even really participating in things, it makes little difference to them.

But then again, assuming you're not a sociopath or a quasi-sociopath of some sort, I tend to think that unless you feel instinctively that you're doing something wrong, chances are you probably aren't. And I would speculate that a lot people (maybe most) who (by whatever means) coerce others into sex, feel that instinctive sense of "wrong" and simply ignore it.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:47 AM

28. I grew up in the 50s and 60s

so I know what the mindset was back then, and what all this "legitimate" rape crap is all about. We are going back to THOSE times again.

A girl or woman had to prove she raped. Yes, put the victim on trial. She had to show physical signs of resisting, as in being beaten to a pulp. If she needed hospitalization because of her injuries, even better. Everything she did and even the clothing she wore would be subjected to questioning.

This is a major reason that most rapes were not reported back in the "good old days". After the trauma of the rape itself, girl and women would be psychologically raped all over again.. Probably, the only females who weren't put through this were toddlers and octogenarians.

Welcome back to the Dark Ages.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:44 AM

30. That's when I grew up, too.

In 1959, when I was about to start high school, a skinny 6'1" kid with zits on his face, my father sat me down to give me "the talk." Not the one about reproduction. I had learned about that from the book my parents gave me when I was about 10. No. This talk was about responsibility. The take-away from that talk was that men had no right to have sex with anyone. My father was very clear about that. What he explained was that, unless there was eager, enthusiastic consent from the other person, engaging in any sexual activity with that person was simply wrong. Eager. Enthusiastic. Those were his words. That was "the talk."

And he was absolutely correct. I knew it. I understood it as soon as I heard him say it. And that's how I approached sexual activity in my teens and beyond, into adulthood. I listened to my father, because I knew him to be an honorable person and because what he said had the ring of absolute truth in it.

Now, did that talk keep me from being sexually active in high school? Not at all. Eager and enthusiastic partners in canoodling weren't all that scarce, really. But, it did keep me from every forcing, wheedling, or emotionally coercing any sexual activity, even minor sexual activity, from anyone. As my father said, that would be simply wrong.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:49 PM

33. Absolutely

There will ALWAYS be "eager participant" teenagers, and 20, 30, 40 year olds. It is just a matter of biology and hormones, and there is no denying that thinking that Abstinence until Marriage (????) is ever going to work with 99.9% of the population. Not to get OT on this, but this is where EDUCATION about Contraception is a no brainer.

FORCIBLE (and No means NO) whether Date or Stranger, Rape is still RAPE. I prefer that term than any other. As a young woman, I did have times where I really did mean NO, and the young men I knew totally understood that. This is where "the Talk" with SONS matters. Thank you for stating that.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:06 AM

29. Parents must teach daughters to say NO

 

firmly and clearly. This will eliminate any implied consent. Saying no is imperative in any situation. Parents must teach their sons NO means NO. Without the NO, confusion on the matter will continue. The woman has to say NO and the man HAS to respect that, otherwise he is a rapist. Many so called rapes have occured when the woman was afraid to say no for what ever reason sometimes unfounded. That won't work. They must say NO! Repeatedly if neccessary, even at the risk of physical harm sadly.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:34 PM

32. This is Cherokee's way of TEACHING men

even though they shouldn't NEED to be taught, or so he had thought. In his view it SHOULD be innate. But since threads have shown it isn't, he's giving a father's gut reaction.

He's disgusted and angry. He's saying men had damn well better know damn well that the woman, who is some man's daughter, is a very willing participant.

And that there are still fathers out there who will not react well to their daughters being sexually assaulted.


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Response to DevonRex (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:55 PM

34. Was Your Interpretation Really Required? I Don't Think So. (nt)

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Response to Paladin (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:42 PM

39. I think some people

might have misunderstood his intent. Does it bother you that I clarified it for them? If so, why?

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:28 PM

38. So...

 

"taking her own clothes off" and "totally coherent"

If I remove my wife's clothes after a night of drinking and we proceed with a night of wild debaucherous sex, did I just rape her by your definition?

Lets say somewhere between stone sober and passed out... definitely tipsy.

It just seems that common sense has to be applied here aside from the fact that using that logic anyone who has sex with anyone with alcohol in their system just became a rapist. That just isn't so...

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