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Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:39 AM

No! For men, rape is NOT the default.

If they have been raised to respect other people, to be kind and considerate to all living things, it does not have to be explicitly stated that they should not rape. It is part and parcel.

Just as you don't have to teach your daughter not to abuse her children.

The suggestion that men must be TAUGHT it in order to not be the default rape creatures that they are is incredibly wrong and incredibly offensive.

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Arrow 79 replies Author Time Post
Reply No! For men, rape is NOT the default. (Original post)
Bonobo Nov 2012 OP
RobertEarl Nov 2012 #1
flvegan Nov 2012 #2
Bonobo Nov 2012 #9
flvegan Nov 2012 #22
Bonobo Nov 2012 #23
G_j Nov 2012 #3
Arkana Nov 2012 #69
G_j Nov 2012 #73
Arkana Nov 2012 #74
G_j Nov 2012 #77
Prism Nov 2012 #4
Bonobo Nov 2012 #7
Prism Nov 2012 #16
LittleBlue Nov 2012 #66
seabeyond Nov 2012 #70
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #40
Prism Nov 2012 #51
hfojvt Nov 2012 #46
Prism Nov 2012 #52
hfojvt Nov 2012 #53
ieoeja Nov 2012 #78
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #5
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #6
Sadiedog Nov 2012 #8
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #10
dchill Nov 2012 #28
Bonobo Nov 2012 #11
Sadiedog Nov 2012 #12
Bonobo Nov 2012 #13
Sadiedog Nov 2012 #18
Berserker Nov 2012 #24
Bonobo Nov 2012 #26
hfojvt Nov 2012 #42
nomorenomore08 Nov 2012 #43
hfojvt Nov 2012 #45
redqueen Nov 2012 #50
hfojvt Nov 2012 #57
gollygee Nov 2012 #75
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #54
seabeyond Nov 2012 #55
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #58
seabeyond Nov 2012 #60
hfojvt Nov 2012 #59
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #64
seabeyond Nov 2012 #65
TrueBlueinCO Nov 2012 #67
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #29
Sadiedog Nov 2012 #79
raccoon Nov 2012 #47
Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #48
leftstreet Nov 2012 #14
Bonobo Nov 2012 #15
leftstreet Nov 2012 #17
NashvilleLefty Nov 2012 #19
Bonobo Nov 2012 #27
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #20
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #21
Bonobo Nov 2012 #25
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #30
Bonobo Nov 2012 #31
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #32
Bonobo Nov 2012 #33
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #35
Bonobo Nov 2012 #37
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #38
bettyellen Nov 2012 #34
Bonobo Nov 2012 #36
hfojvt Nov 2012 #44
redqueen Nov 2012 #61
nvme Nov 2012 #39
redqueen Nov 2012 #63
nomorenomore08 Nov 2012 #41
gollygee Nov 2012 #49
treestar Nov 2012 #56
seabeyond Nov 2012 #62
ProfessorGAC Nov 2012 #68
redqueen Nov 2012 #71
gollygee Nov 2012 #76
marions ghost Nov 2012 #72

Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:45 AM

1. We must be reminded

And we should remind ourselves all the time.

That way,. maybe one day, we won't be seen as default rape creatures. We must make it so that women are not scared of us men. It is that simple.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:46 AM

2. "the default rape creatures that they are"

This should be good.

Not raping is a default of your first paragraph. And I"m going to leave the obvious response to being "kind and considerate to all living things" aside, because this is a serious conversation.

But I'll bet you know where I'm going with that, eh?

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Response to flvegan (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:06 AM

9. Ummm, you snatched that quote out of context, 5gan...

As for the respect for all living things, I do not think that implies a moral imperative to not eat meat, no. Simply to respect the sacredness of the sacrifice the animal has made should suffice.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:25 AM

22. Ummm, no I didn't.

I simply called upon it's failure on the very face of it. Drawing a parallel. What you think about moral imperatives aside, including the "sacrifice" of a being not asked to do so, but to have it taken away.

Whoops, did that go there?

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Response to flvegan (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:28 AM

23. Sorry, I have no idea what you are saying.

I think I misunderstood why you pulled out that quote.

Furthermore, the rest of the meaning of this response of yours is murky to me.

No offense, I just don't understand where YOU are going with it.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:55 AM

3. there are many cultural examples of men being taught the opposite values

TV, movies, video games. I would say as a society we have a lot of work to do.

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Response to G_j (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:58 PM

69. Why is it then that despite watching countless violent television shows, playing

almost every violent video game that exists, and seeing a gazillion movies I have never (nor will I ever) feel the slightest inclination towards violence against women?

I mean, I've played Grand Theft Auto--that must mean I like to shoot hookers and run people over with my car, right?

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Response to Arkana (Reply #69)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:36 PM

73. lucky you

I'm not getting into that argument. If you don't think images effect people, especially young people, then that's your trip.

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Response to G_j (Reply #73)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:37 PM

74. I don't dispute that they may have an effect on young minds.

But it's not on TV and movie producers to stop producing the content--it's on parents to stop their kids from watching them.

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Response to Arkana (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:50 PM

77. agreed, the buck stops at the parents

it would be nice if those producers cared, but money is the bottom line.

As a rule, I don't believe in censorship.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:58 AM

4. I think the culture introduces the idea later in adolescence

Especially where alcohol is concerned. I'm almost certain some of my then-friends were not taught that rape was ok. Normally, they'd treat people decently. But once we hit our twenties, and getting tanked on the weekends became the regular thing, there was definitely a shift in thinking among a sizable portion of people I was acquainted with.

Now, this is gay male culture I'm talking about. Maybe it's significantly different in straight male culture, but somewhere in the late teens or early 20s, the thought that drunken sex was a desirable norm arrived in a not easily dismissed segment of the male population.

I've gotten drunk (especially in my early 20s) and then found a guy with his hand down my pants (or more). Before meeting my partner, I had an encounter where a guy gave me drink after drink at a party. I collapsed into bed, woke up in the morning, and started wondering where my pants were. My friends? If I told them that, they'd say it sounded like I had a good time. Well, no, I remember face planting into a quilt and waking up pantsless.

But here's the odd trick of this thing. I don't actually think much of it. It doesn't particular bother me. I wasn't scarred. It doesn't haunt me. I never even think about it. My only concern was "Oh god, did we do anything unsafe!?" and then waiting on test results.

I'm not saying the behavior was ok because I reacted indifferently. I'm asking why am I reacting indifferently? Why do so many of my friends and acquaintances act indifferently? "Well, it happens sometimes when you're shitfaced, haha!" Why is that not a big deal? What part of the culture and expectations of male behavior have conditioned me and other males to not have any particular emotional response to those things?

And therein is the question and the problem. I honestly think there are a portion of males, conditioned somewhere in adolescent culture, who get it put into their heads that drunk sex with someone who is in no condition to consent is fine. Even if part of them knows what they're doing is shady and wrong. And that inculcation is so strong, that many of us males who are on the receiving end of the unwanted sexual encounter shrug it off, chalk it up to a regrettable night of partying.

There is something involved there, and I think that is what people are trying to get at when they talk about "teaching men not to rape." They're talking about a culture (and peer pressure) that plants this idea in people who did not have it before. That makes it seem desirable, acceptable, or even expected. I still see it in a segment of adult gay men. I was at a bar without my partner about six months back. I had been drinking, but I was not drunk. I was exhausted from a 13 hour shift. Next thing I know, a not-very-drunk guy had tried backing me off to a corner and started putting his hands in places. He'd misread my level of inebriation quite clearly.

It's a thing, Bonobo.

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Response to Prism (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:04 AM

7. Interesting...

Why was that not a big deal to you and what does that imply about the different way that men treat their sexuality? You suggest this is a major key to understanding this issue and I find that intriguing.

Does it relate to the way women are conditioned to "protect" their sexual purity and stop invasion and therefore their sexual organs have value whereas men are taught to make a conquest and that, as a result, their sexual organs have not innate value?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:12 AM

16. I think you've touched upon it.

Men are socialized to treat sexuality differently. There is no universal rule, of course. What I'm indifferent towards can be deeply scarring to others. And the incidents I refer to did not involve violent penetration of any kind. I'm pretty sure if I woke up bleeding and sore, I would feel much differently towards what happened.

But even so, there is definitely a kind of acceptance among some portion of men. A fait accompli, almost. "Well, you were drunk with a guy. Of course something happened." And it's viewed as a kind of "Well, that's how the world works."

But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that my fifteen year old self would not feel that way. This odd shift in sexual thinking seems to have coalesced somewhere in that 18-22 zone.

Which is why I think you see such a problem with college students. It's like a cultural switch is being thrown, with terrible consequences.

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Response to Prism (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:52 PM

66. That is an interesting observation

Technically speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, men are conditioned to reproduce as much as possible. Women are conditioned to be picky about their partners. I doubt it matters that you're gay as these urges aren't rational.

I heard a statistic that genetically we are descended from twice as many women as men. Some interpreted that to mean the prehistoric world was incredibly dangerous for males, but also it proves that women are the selective influence in our evolution. Maybe you could say that we evolved to reproduce quickly and furiously by an appalling life expectancy and fickle women (ie one wound from prehistoric man's prey could make him unfit as a mate.)

Anyway, thank you for posting this.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #66)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:02 PM

70. you really think about the beginning of time, they had the brain power and the knowledge to know

sticking a dick in a vagina could result in pregnancy? and that the women had the brain power and know to put together that that is how they became preg? so they could produce offspring? cause i have to tell you, we have a lot of teens that until taught, think there is all kinds of ways to get preg, and that is with a much larger brain ability and knowledge base.

just throwing it out there for thought. after i dont know, hearing forever from the beginning of time, it was all about producing when i dont get how they got it was producing.

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Response to Prism (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:10 AM

40. Just an excuse. Just like so many rationalizations so many of us use to excuse ourselves

 

for doing what we know is wrong when the idea first comes to mind. Hell, we even invented religion to excuse it.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #40)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:51 AM

51. I think that's part of it. The rationalization

People getting something they want and telling themselves why it's ok in this instance, despite the fact some part of them may know it isn't on the up and up. Perhaps even strengthened by a social culture of mutual reinforcement.

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Response to Prism (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:37 AM

46. drunk sex

I have to sort of wonder why that IS such a bad thing.

As a man, how would I feel if some woman did that to me? Deliberately got me drunk in order to have sex with me.

Hard to imagine, because first of all, I do not drink. Second, it's hard to imagine that there are actually women who would want to have sex with me. If such women exist, where can I meet some of them?

But, of course, while there are lots and lots of attractive women, there are also many that I would not want to have sex with. Some of whom I have dated.

So, I am having drinks with one of them and one of two things happens

1. I wake up later, discovering that I had sex with her.

or

2. I wake up later, and find she is on top of me, engaging in intercourse.

What's my reaction?

I generally think of sex as a good thing, like eating ice cream or pizza, or hitting a home run in baseball, or winning a game of chess against a grandmaster.

I mean, isn't waking up to find out you had sex, more like waking up to find out you had an ice cream cone than it is waking up to find out you had a root canal? And even if I did wake up to find out I had a root canal, why wouldn't I be happy that I slept through the horrible ordeal?

Waking up to find youself actially having sex is only horrible and disgusting if you feel the other person is disgusting. Kinda like waking up to find a roach crawling on your face. Which actually happened to me once, I screamed, killed the roach and went back to sleep. But the two women I dated and did not want to have sex with do not strike me as disgusting. Semi-unattractive, but not really disgusting. My unattractive co-workers. I guess I find their bodies to be disgusting, but not they themselves. And in many ways, I find my own body to be disgusting. None of them are probably dreaming of sex with me any more than I am dreaming of sex with them. Heck some of them, unlike my disgusting self, are married (or in relationships).

So, it seems to me that even if I did get drunk and woke up to find myself having sex with someone like that, that I would not feel as upset as if I had been robbed or beaten or even insulted. I might not be happy about it, or proud of it, but it would not even make the top 100, probably, of bad things that have happened to me in my life, and I have had a fairly sheltered life compared to many.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #46)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:59 AM

52. Men can't get pregnant

That's definitely part of the calculus.

Yeah, there are STD considerations, but I don't think it's on the same order of what a woman has to fear.

But you raise the point Bonobo did about how men and women feel differently about sex. At the end of the day, a lot of men feel that any sex is a "point scored" or as you put it, ice cream. But what shapes that perception? Is it the power balance? Men don't typically fear being raped, so I wonder if there isn't still some measure of power being retained. Whereas women tend to fear that kind of black-out encounter, and it often creates a feeling of violation and powerlessness.

It's a tricky needle to thread, but I'm convinced why some men feel justified or at least have rationalized it to themselves enough to commit rape is traced into that cultural view of how we're socialized to see sex. And I think our adolescent peers are playing a big role in that socialization.

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Response to Prism (Reply #52)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:48 PM

53. but logically there is a consideration

By which I mean, if I drink and wake up to find myself having sex with a woman, SHE could get pregnant. And if she did, in some ways that would ruin my life. Suddenly, what, 15 or 20% of my paycheck would be taken away for the next 18 years - unless I became a fugitive. Heck, even in situations where the sex is fully consensual, it is a consideration. I saw my brother go through the wringer when his girlfriend told him a couple times she was late. He was practically suicidal, saw himself as doomed.

It was certainly a consideration in the case where I turned down my opportunity for sex. I did not want to be paying to that woman for the next 18 years, and also did not trust her to be a good mother. I was barely making a living as it was, and that was mostly true for the next twenty years. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002625762

So I took a pass on something I expected to be quite pleasurable. If the situation was reversed, it would not have slowed me down. That is, if she was a man, and I a woman, I would not have let fear of pregnancy stop me from having sex.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #46)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:10 PM

78. A girl did that to me once. And I statuatorially raped her.


I was 23 and employed. But I had a new job out of town on the line which was put on hold by the Graham-Rudman bill. So I was in a holding pattern which meant I needed non-permanent housing.

I found a guy who bought up townhomes, patched the picture hanging holes with toothpaste (I kid you not), then sold them. In between he would rent out the apt. Which means you might be asked to move at any moment. It also meant he was a crook, so I went in knowing I was not going to get my security deposit back. But that's okay. He had phones forwarded to phones forwarded to phones (like I say, a crook), including the one in our house. So I made sure to run up a phone bill larger than my security deposit.

I have few qualms about ripping off crooks.

Anywhose, to make a long story short (too late) one guy was already renting the place when I rented one bedroom. He was 18 or 19 and his friends were always over for partying. First night a gal said she always used my room when she came over. I told her that was fine, but she was going to find me in there.

So I joined them for some drinks then went to bed (I'm usually the first guy to leave). I woke up with the aforementioned girl stradling me. She wasn't someone I would have chosen, but I didn't mind all that much either.

Next day I found out she was only 16.

Since the age of consent was 17, I was guilty of statuatory rape as I did not stop her when I woke up.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:59 AM

5. +1.

 

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:03 AM

6. it doesn't matter how many threads people make

People are going to disagree about it. You said if they are raised to respect other people to be kind and considerate to all living things it does not have to be explicitly stated that they should not rape. It is the respect other people and be kind and considerate to all living things that has to be taught, and it is not always taught. I know lots of people who were not taught that. In fact, I would say as a culture we fail miserably at teaching people to respect, be kind, and considerate to all living things.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:05 AM

8. Men's biggest fear is that women will laugh at them. Women's biggest fear is that men will kill them

This quote has haunted me for years it is from a book about fear. I am sorry that I do not remember the author but these words have stayed with me for years.

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Response to Sadiedog (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:06 AM

10. Wow. That is haunting.

I have to say I have feared for my life in a man's presence before.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:41 AM

28. Me too - and I'm a man.

We're scary creatures, sometimes.

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Response to Sadiedog (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:07 AM

11. Apparently Margaret Atwood relayed that quote.

Novelist Margaret Atwood writes that when she asked a male friend why men feel threatened by women, he answered, "They are afraid women will laugh at them." When she asked a group of women why they feel threatened by men, they said, "We're afraid of being killed."

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:09 AM

12. Thank you, I am glad to know who said it originally.

It has stayed in my mind for so long.

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Response to Sadiedog (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:10 AM

13. Just so you know, men also fear being killed by other men.

So, that's really the same experience.

In fact, since there are many men that want to show their machismo by beating up other men, I daresay men have to face that kind of fear more often than women.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:16 AM

18. Sad!

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:29 AM

24. As a man

 

I do not fear other men as you state. I try very hard to understand what women fear. They go through their life in fear of us and what we will do. They should never have to do that but it is reality. I disagree that men have to face that more than women. As a man I will go anywhere and never be in fear like a woman would have to.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:36 AM

26. We're not all giant vikings... nt

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Response to Berserker (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:45 AM

42. "they go through their life in fear of us"

No, it is kinda rare for a woman to actually feel fear, and most of the time when fear is there, it is the same sort of situation where a man would feel fear - a dark alley, a rough bar, etc. You may go anywhere without fear, but I don't have that same feeling, and the only reason I might be with minimal fear is that I feel I am a fairly fast runner should the need arise.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:51 AM

43. It's a generalization, i.e. overly broad by its nature. I don't necessarily agree *or* disagree.

And I concur that many of the same situations perceived by a woman as threatening, would be perceived similarly by a man. But throw in the general (there's that word again) size/strength differential involved, and I suspect that in many cases, the *degree* of fear felt by a woman would be greater.

And on a rather irrelevant note, only because you mentioned it, I can also sprint pretty fast when I have to. Being a former high school cross-country runner (and it wasn't *that* long ago ).

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #43)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:42 AM

45. there is the generalization

I guess an easy example is my own work commute. I go home from work, like tonight, by bicycle. Tonight I went home, a whole six blocks, mostly uphill, by bicycle at 1:40 a.m. It probably would not be considered safe for a woman to do the same thing, even in the farily small city where I live - population 35,000.

On another note, at my niece's wedding, my brother and his family were walking the six blocks to his hotel in downtown Minneapolis at 1 a.m. I insisted on going with them, for their protection, not that I provide much of that, but I am six feet tall. His family is himself, his 50 year old wife, 19 year old daughter and 17 year old son. Wife and daughter were, of course, gussied up and wearing heels. My nephew can probably kick my a$$, but he looks kinda small. I just felt like 3 guys and two girls was a safer group than just the four of them, even though that meant I was walking back to my hotel room alone.

Still, my own fear sorta seemed greater than theirs. They did not ask for the protection that I freely offered. I was more worried about them than they were about themselves.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:00 AM

50. Wrong. Completely, utterly wrong. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #50)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:17 PM

57. in what way?

I mean, obviously, I do not know what it is like to be a woman. I don't even have close friends who are women, other than my mom and sisters, and they have been pretty distant for the last 30 years or so as I went to college and lived my own life. We see and talk perhaps a dozen times a year (outside of facebook posts), but not daily interaction like in childhood.

But I see women at work, working out, going to parties, getting married, they don't seem to be "living in fear of men". They seem to have many friends who are men, but they are not all that fearful of strange men like myself. By which I mean they don't know me or all that much about me, but I can walk past them and occasionally make some sort of random comment - usually a joke or some sort of observation about the weather or the time of year, or about dogs, or sports, or politics, and they laugh or comment back, etc.

And for example, while I was writing this post, I got a call from my boss, a woman. Is she living her life in fear of men like me? I do not believe it.

Clearly, there is room for fear of SOME men in SOME situations, but women move among men without fear in a far different way than squirrels relate to dogs. And there is also room for my own fear of some men in some situations. Any one of us can goto a movie and suddenly be forced to deal with an angry man who is armed and shooting, for example, or even an unarmed large man who is disheveled and unkempt and potentially very dangerous. Or we could meet a Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy who looks perfectly harmless, but actually is not.

But living life in fear of "men" in general? I don't buy it.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #57)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:43 PM

75. It isn't big things, like whether or not to get married

It's little things, like where to park your car, whether to go to the store if it's getting dark, whether to answer the door if it's late and your husband isn't home, whether to give someone your real name in some circumstances, if you're dating age even more things, whether to get on the elevator or wait for the next one, whether to use the stairwell nearest you or to walk out of your way to a busier one.

It isn't the big things, and I can see why you'd question the term based on that. But it's a lot of little things that we do often even without thinking, and really I bet most women make some decision based on the potential for rape or not at least every day. Some guy offers to help you carry stuff, and you know most men are safe and would never hurt you, but then you know your cousin was raped after someone helped her carry things, and you can't help worrying about whether this guy is like most guys, or would cause trouble. These little things decisions you have to make pop up often enough. Plus the knowledge that if you do trust someone and you guessed wrong, you will have people asking you why you were so stupid to let some guy you don't know help you carry stuff to your car.

And it's less about men you know than men you don't know, so you might very well not see it if you're thinking about your interactions with women who know you well. Like, I wasn't afraid to get married because I know the man I married would never hurt me. But please trust us that this is still a part of our lives.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:10 PM

54. Which is why I am asked consistently by my

"No, it is kinda rare for a woman to actually feel fear..."

Which is why I am asked consistently by the vast majority of the female co-workers in my department to walk them to their cars when it's dark after work... because they simply want company.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:11 PM

55. they are .... hawt, for you, dontcha know. it means they want sex? nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:26 PM

58. Darn tootin'!

Darn tootin'! Nothing more romantic to these "fillies" than a concrete tarmac surrounded by warehouse buildings, beat-up Hyundai's, and empty beer cans after twelve hours of sitting at a computer!!!


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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #58)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:29 PM

60. really.

too cute. i need that today.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:28 PM

59. because they are living their life in fear of you?

That kinda proves my point though. They lived their work day without fear and there was a brief moment of fear when they were "walking in the dark".

Yet, for a time there, before I got more comfortable with this city - I carried pepper spray with me when I walked or biked home from work. A man could logically fear being attacked by a gun or knife wielding stranger, or even, like myself, being accosted by some drunk or belligerent person who is big enough to be dangerous even unarmed. The only reason I feel as safe as I do, is because I have the speed for flight if a fight or flight situation arises. They call me the breeze.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:42 PM

64. No... it doesn't.

"That kinda proves my point though..."

No... it certainly doesn't. It's evidence they know me specifically, they trust me specifically, and they feel safer around me specifically in a less forgiving and darker environment based on that knowledge, rather than simply putting their faith in that environment in and by itself.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:46 PM

65. theya re at work. it is dark outside. they do not want to go outside by themselves.

they are more comfortable and feel safer asking lantern to walk out to the car with them. or a group of women. we do that also. they do not fear lantern. they appreciate lantern being nice enough to respect their fear and him walk the women to the car.

and it is nice that he does that.

i too have had men walk me out to the car.

i do not always have that option. and when i do not have that option i am hyperaware.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:55 PM

67. That may be how you feel

 

but it doesn't reflect reality.

In the real world, men are many times more likely to be the victims of violence than women.

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Response to Sadiedog (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:47 AM

29. Gavin de Becker, The Gift Of Fear

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:27 PM

79. Yes! That is the book that I had heard the fear quote in! Thanks! NT

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Response to Sadiedog (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:30 AM

47. THE GIFT OF FEAR by Gavin de Becker. nt

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Response to Sadiedog (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:40 AM

48. Lorena Bobbit's husband would beg to differ (nt)

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:10 AM

14. Some people do have to be taught not to abuse their kids

I take your point, but I'm not sure if the daughter/abuse children thing works here

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:11 AM

15. Because they were not raised right.

Abuse is not the default. Rape is not the default.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:15 AM

17. Agreed

It's not the default, but may have appeared that way at a time when many parents/authority figures had the 'right' legally to beat on their kids

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:19 AM

19. Bonobo? really?

because Bonobos are technically the closest DNA relatives to humans, and technically they do not have "rape" because they have sex for everything.

Personally, I think we could learn a lot from the Bonobos.

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Response to NashvilleLefty (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:38 AM

27. I agree. Orangutans rape, bonobos don't. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:19 AM

20. Unbelievable that I have to post this link over and over again. We are so clueless about our culture

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

- In a survey of male college students:

35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).

One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)

43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:24 AM

21. people don't want to believe humans can think this way

but they do.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:35 AM

25. I am skeptical. Surveys are notorious for their ability to be manipulated.

For example...

"35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7)."

--What does "under certain circumstances" mean? What were the "circumstances"?
Sounds to me like this might be misleading depending on how HARD the interviewer pushed and to what extent that allowed for "circumstances" that would have mitigated the damage and wrongness of the hypothetical rape (time machines? UFOs? "just a fantasy so come on, tell the truth, you know you WANT to...", etc.)

Also, 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

So that INCLUDES physical aggression but may also including begging? Does this mean that 1% was physical aggression and 99% of it was "Please"?

I simply do not believe that 1 out of 3 college students would commit rape. It is misleading. Just my opinion and you can argue all you want with that.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:54 AM

30. I have been manipulated and coerced into having sex

I willingly went through with the act but still felt violated. One guy in particular that I thought I was in love with was a drunk and was verbally abusive. After finding out I lost my virginity to someone else called me a bitch. Lots of guys I dated manipulated and tried to coerce me into having sex. It usually only worked with the ones I thought I was in love with, but none the less I still felt really bad after it was over. And usually after a week or two I would never hear from the guy again.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:13 AM

31. That is never a nice thing.

But I don't think it belongs in the same category as physically coercive sex.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:19 AM

32. what is physically coercive sex? Do you mean physically forcible sex?

Coercive means you are talked into doing something you don't want to do. If someone is physically forcing you to have sex that is forcible rape, not the same as coerced sex, but I may add still very emotionally damaging. Either way you are still being treated less than human.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:27 AM

33. I meant physically forcing, which is, of course rape itself.

My only objection to the survey was that it seemed that it was putting "emotional manipulation" into the same category as something like coercion through threats of physical force or coercion through blackmail, etc.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:33 AM

35. I can't say whether I sustained the same level of trauma as someone who was forcibly raped

I've never been forcibly raped, but I can tell you anytime you have sex when you don't want to it hurts. I don't think it is a contest to see which one is worse. The point is how the boy sees and treats the girl he is having sex with that does not want to have sex and how it traumatizes the girl. How it makes her feel less than. Makes her feel unworthy as a human being.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:00 AM

37. I am sorry for you hurt.

I am not trying to diminish it, just trying to have an open and honest conversation about a difficult subject and I was replying about the survey that was posted by Luminous. Sorry to have let it get personal.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:05 AM

38. thank you

Rape is a complex issue. It's not easy to understand. In a perfect world all people would always respect each other, but unfortunately that is not always the case.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:27 AM

34. Physical coercion can result in sex? Silly me, I thought that was rape!

Seems like the lines are a bit blurry for you. Well, it's not comforting to me to say this- but you're certainly not alone in that.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:52 AM

36. Nope, not blurry in the least. See post #33. nt

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:26 AM

44. I wonder if that is a common experience

I don't think my sisters experienced that ever.

But it does sorta sound like classic player behaviour.

What happens to those guys though? Do they find a new woman to manipulate and abandon every week? Do they eventually have more permanent relationships?

I cannot imagine acting like that, although I certainly would have liked to have sex with most of the women that I dated. The one exception was the woman who wanted to have sex with me, but I sorta didn't want to. I mean, my body wanted to, but my mind vetoed the idea. She thought she was in love with me, and I was flattered, and considered it, but never returned the emotion.

Well, she married, had three kids, divorced, whereas I still have not had sex, so I guess I was the loser - as usual.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:33 PM

61. for you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125513227

It is appalling how common it is, and how ignored.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:06 AM

39. The tone

I was following the post and the tone "Forcible rape", Rape is rape. If it involves traumatic(physical) or manipulative, coercive, or substance induced. It does not matter. It is Rape. Whether woman on man, woman on woman,man on woman or man on man. I agree with much of what is being said with that exception. The majority of people will not rape.

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Response to nvme (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:35 PM

63. "If it involves traumatic(physical) or manipulative, coercive, or substance induced.

It does not matter. It is Rape."

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:18 AM

41. For me this speaks to an even more fundamental question, of whether people are "naturally" more

"good" than "bad" or vice versa. Since virtually everything we do and say is influenced by some form of social programming, kindness and altruism could be said to be just as "unnatural" - in some sense - as various abusive behaviors.

So yeah, I'm sorry, I really don't have any answers for you, just more questions that a single message board thread could never hope to encompass.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:48 AM

49. Some women and men do have to be taught not to abuse their children

When CPS is called because of abuse, often the first step is parenting classes, where parents are taught how to respond to things in a non-abusive way.

And I appreciate that many men can't imagine any men who think it's fine to force themselves on women if "she was stupid enough to get that drunk at a party." But I know there are men who do believe that. I know it isn't the majority, but it doesn't take a majority to cause serious problems on a college campus. Men who DO rape have multiple victims, so the problem can be huge even with only a minority of men involved.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:12 PM

56. Makes sense, but then there are a few who apparently just don't know

Like the guy referring to girls who "rape easy." It is amazing the ignorance that can be out there.

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Response to treestar (Reply #56)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:34 PM

62. or put an aspirin between your knees. come on. guys have known sayings about this shit. no means

more beer.

damn hard to keep that aspirin between knees when passed out.

why are we pretending that our society, culture, media does not promote this entitlement of men.

is it ALL men. no. vast majority of men do not believe this, because they were raised in an environment where society/culture/media was not allowed to take hold.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:56 PM

68. You're Correct. It is NOT a Default Position

It never was for me.
GAC

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:08 PM

71. I wasn't going to reply to this, but people seem to be taking it seriously...

Who said (or even implied) that men are "default rape creatures"?

No one.

So... well done slaying that strawman argument. (Seems to be an increasingly popular activity here.)

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Response to redqueen (Reply #71)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:48 PM

76. Yeah, I didn't know how to answer this because I couldn't think of how

I was thinking, no of rape is not the default for men. But that's not the point. But you're right, the issue is that it's a strawman.

Most men don't rape, but those who do rape a lot of women, so it still affects women hugely even though it isn't most men.

And for rape statistics to decrease, particularly for acquaintance rape (of the sort discussed in the several rape threads) the majority of men who would never rape have to speak out when someone creates a sexually aggressive atmosphere, which in my memory of college days, is when parties go bad. If someone starts groping a woman who obviously isn't wanting it around you, tell him to stop. If someone makes rape jokes, speak out like you would about a racist joke. That kind of thing.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:30 PM

72. Predators always know

who is easy prey. Young women with low self esteem for example. Young women who, like a friend of mine, were taught that she should "be available." Her father took her to get BC pills and convinced her this was to help her deal with the guys she'd encounter in college. Maybe he was right but it sent the wrong message. She is mid-40's now, never married. Sometimes the men that women should be the most afraid of are in their own family....

I think that teaching young men what is morally right is good, and not only in regard to sex. It may stop some from becoming a predator. Any kind of predator.

Also teach young women to have too much respect for themselves to become victims. Most women WILL have to deal with unwanted advances, many stopping short of rape, but still amounting to assault. Teach young women exactly where the line is.

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