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Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:28 PM

We all have our opinions and one is as valid as the other.

In your opinion, what do think the President should do about the "fiscal cliff"?

Should he let all the taxcuts expire at the end of the year and immediately request that Congress pass the taxcut for those making less than $250K or less. If Congress then passes the Bush taxcuts again in its entirety, with taxcuts for the wealthy, should the President sign it?

It is a complex matter. I think we can all agree on that?

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Reply We all have our opinions and one is as valid as the other. (Original post)
kentuck Nov 2012 OP
Stinky The Clown Nov 2012 #1
rock Nov 2012 #26
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #32
msongs Nov 2012 #2
Isoldeblue Nov 2012 #3
NRaleighLiberal Nov 2012 #4
Deep13 Nov 2012 #5
Avalux Nov 2012 #6
kentuck Nov 2012 #8
Avalux Nov 2012 #9
Warren DeMontague Nov 2012 #7
forestpath Nov 2012 #10
kentuck Nov 2012 #11
jody Nov 2012 #12
Aerows Nov 2012 #18
jody Nov 2012 #22
2ndAmForComputers Nov 2012 #24
Aerows Nov 2012 #39
Aerows Nov 2012 #38
jody Nov 2012 #42
Aerows Nov 2012 #44
jody Nov 2012 #45
woo me with science Nov 2012 #41
Bigmack Nov 2012 #13
kentuck Nov 2012 #14
Spike89 Nov 2012 #15
kentuck Nov 2012 #16
Spike89 Nov 2012 #19
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #34
Aerows Nov 2012 #17
NCTraveler Nov 2012 #21
Aerows Nov 2012 #40
NCTraveler Nov 2012 #20
datasuspect Nov 2012 #23
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #25
HereSince1628 Nov 2012 #28
freshwest Nov 2012 #37
NashvilleLefty Nov 2012 #27
kentuck Nov 2012 #29
NashvilleLefty Nov 2012 #36
TrogL Nov 2012 #30
ieoeja Nov 2012 #31
BarackTheVote Nov 2012 #33
spanone Nov 2012 #35
PoliticalBiker Nov 2012 #43

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:30 PM

1. I'm in the let it go over the cliff camp.

That hurts repubicans politically more than it hurts ordinary people. Plus it lets Obama be a leader on the issue and hamstrings repubicans into voting his way.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:04 PM

26. Well I am too except I put it

Let it go down the gradual incline. I know, it's not nearly as sexy but it is a better analogy.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:09 PM

32. Moi aussi. We've got our foot on the necks of the Rape-publi-scum and now is

 

not the time to relent. We need to crush them into well-deserved historical oblivion. Let them go the way of their erstwhile predecessors, the Whigs and Know-Nothings.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:36 PM

2. dems will have more leverage in the new congress. what's not to like? nt

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:37 PM

3. Going over the cliff

is what we need to do, to get what is right and fair for all. It will also show the right in it's true, ugly light for more to see. Their stubbornness and being obligated to the Koch brothers will do them in for good.
I remember Lawrence O'Donnell talking about going over, many months ago. At the time, I wondered if the dems would be brave enough to do this. It's looking like we are!!

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:41 PM

4. Over the cliff we should go. n/t

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:43 PM

5. okay...

Cut military, reduce prison sentences for non-violent offenders, raise taxes on marginal income, corporate income over a certain level, raise taxes on income between 100k and the marginal amount, raise large estate taxes, tax money saved by exporting jobs overseas at a high rate, disallow business expense deductions for that, tax money moved out of the country at a high rate, crack down on tax evasion.

Anything that includes cuts to social services, education, or federal law enforcement (environment, workplace safety, civil rights) should be vetoes. Anything that fails to raise taxes on the wealthy should be vetoes.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:45 PM

6. The cliff is bullshit. Let the tax cuts expire.

As Warren Buffet said, they'll come around to a deal shortly after the first of the year, with the tax cuts for the wealthy staying gone.

The Republicans won't have to take responsibility for raising taxes on the wealthy if they do nothing now. It's fucked up politics but the most likely scenario.

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Response to Avalux (Reply #6)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:13 PM

8. Do you think the President is considering this option?

I hope he is?

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Response to kentuck (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:16 PM

9. Yes I think he is.

Of course he's not going to say so; no one is. Both sides will continue their dance and off the cliff we'll go. I really hope it happens.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:46 PM

7. Let em all expire.

Fuck Grover Norquist.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:19 PM

10. l'd rather go over the cliff than be stabbed in the back by some bogus "deal."

 

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:19 PM

11. If I had been advising the President...

I would have advised him to say nothing about the Bush tax cuts or the "fiscal cliff" until he heard from the Republicans. Do not make the first move. If asked about it, just say that you are waiting to see what the Republicans propose. If they do nothing, they raise taxes on everyone because the taxcuts expire automatically at the end of the year.

I would not have advised him to start negotiating with this bunch of extortionists. Nothing good can come from it. That would have been my advice.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:20 PM

12. Only thing complex is what items of spending should be cut. Seems obvious that its impossible to

 

borrow or tax enough to satisfy everyone's wish list.

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Response to jody (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:48 PM

18. Well of course not

It's just that Republicans don't want huge corporate subsidies cut, while they are screaming for minimum wage mothers and poor children to starve in the streets to facilitate that.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:35 PM

22. Understand but the only lasting solutions will require compromise between those two groups. nt

 

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Response to jody (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:37 PM

24. Unfortunately, the Republicans have decreed the non-existence of the idea of "compromise."

You might as well try to compromise with a charging rabid dog.

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Response to 2ndAmForComputers (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:31 PM

39. Yep

You have to ante up to prove that you are actually playing at the table in good faith. So far, I haven't seen any signs of good faith.

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Response to jody (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:31 PM

38. Agreed

But for the last 40 years, the only people compromising have been starving children. It's time for the wealthy fatcats to ante up if they want a place at the table of compromise.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #38)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:40 PM

42. I agree with you but how can that happen when corporations fund both sides and keep us fighting

 

over divisive, polarizing issues and away from compromises you and I support?

I'm always livid when a president signs into law a bill and the photo op shows the Oval Orifice and the president flanked by leaders from both parties smiling radiantly to display bipartisan support for yet another step toward the final corporate state.

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Response to jody (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:04 PM

44. If I could answer that question

I'd be leading the charge. As it stands, we have to, unfortunately, work with the system we have.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #44)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:09 PM

45. If you could answer that question I would follow you to hell and back. nt

 

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Response to jody (Reply #12)


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:26 PM

13. "We all have our opinions and one is as valid as the other."... are you sure of that.?

I know you're just talking about the "fiscal speed bump", but there is an awful lot of false equivalencies out there.

In my opinion, the moon is a satellite in the earth's orbit... in his opinion, the moon is made of green cheese and is held up by invisible strings in god's hands.

I know I sound argumentative, but I made the mistake of going to a Bad Place this AM.... Freepland. Messed me up real bad.

You can imagine the dept of knowledge behind their opinions.

Since you said "we", I'll assume you meant DUers and agree about the validity, but the "opinions" floating around out there boggle my mind.

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:29 PM

14. Yes, you are correct.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:40 PM

15. Not true! Some opinions are actually informed, others not so much

Sorry, I know the thread is about the so-called fiscal cliff, but the old "every opinion is valid" canard simply isn't a valid opinion. Some people are experts, some people are virtually uninformed. Experts can be wrong and dumb shits are sometimes right, but that has nothing to do with valid opinions.

It is complex, we agree there. It is also all about setting the table for how Obama and the players in congress are going to deal with each other over the next 2 years. Obviously, the repugs want to have it both ways--be able to run in two and four years against our policies as "not working" and also against us for not being able to get anything done. Just as obvious, we need to get our programs in place and we need to be able to make the case that we can be effective.

I want Obama to publicly go on and on about how much he's willing to bend over backward to work with the Repugs--he can't do this enough! At the same time, when the mikes are off, I want him to tell repug leadership that he owns them and if they don't give him every friggen thing he wants, he'll hang them out to dry as obstructionists who hate America. Once that deal is done, he can toss them some meaningless bone so they can at least try and grab some credit when the economy turns around.

Doing the opposite--puffing out your chest and declaring the opposition enemies--may make some here happy, but not only will it accomplish nothing, it is the true sign of weakness. When you're strong, you don't need to do the bully thing.

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Response to Spike89 (Reply #15)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:44 PM

16. Are you saying the perception is not the reality?

We can all fantasize.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:19 PM

19. The perception is never the reality

At least when it comes to negotiating, gambling, war, love, and politics, i.e., the things that matter. If you are strong/right/in position, you can take the confident stance and say something like "bring me your ideas and lets come up with a plan". When you're in a weak position, you throw out ultimatums and bluster trying to appear stronger than you are.

In our current environment, where a significant number of people believe we have gridlock--it is almost a no-brainer to position yourself as the reasonable adult willing to listen to any REASONABLE position from the opposition. If you're strong politically (and I do believe Democrats do have a mandate, thus we are strong) taking that stance does not force you into accepting anything other than what you intend to "give away" any way. If the repugs balk at raising taxes on millionaires, Obama can simply say that isn't a reasonable position (he's said so throughout the campaign). The repugs are injured and weak right now--they can't afford to go into the mid-terms with a strong economic recovery in process and no way to claim some credit for it.

They will cave, but they will do it behind closed doors and they will claim some credit when our proposals work. Trying too hard to destroy the republican party by forcing them to fight and obstruct everything may be great political theater, but it will hurt Americans and both parties will get the blame. Done wrong, it could even change public perception to the Democrats as the obstructionists.

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Response to Spike89 (Reply #15)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:14 PM

34. Ooh, I like the cut of your jib. Obama needs to go all Al Capone (in De Palma's

 

"Untouchables") on their Rape-public-scum asses. I'm talking a baseball bat. But behind closed doors.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:45 PM

17. Over the cliff

Then he hammers out a deal from a position of strength. That's why Republicans desperately don't want this to happen.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:29 PM

21. This I like.

Then the dems can force the tax cuts through for the lower income folks. Repubs won't be able to argue against them. It will then become the Obama tax cuts.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #21)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:33 PM

40. I like the way you think, my friend

and that is my thought, as well. We need the House back in 2014. Let's start laying the foundation to build a Democratic House right now.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:27 PM

20. It is all insignificant at the current time.

Big picture none of it will matter except for political points. May even overall hurt. If the taxes on the wealthy are allowed to expire in this manner then people will be forced to celebrate the increased taxes on the wealthy. It will be viewed as a victory for the 99%. Then it will be dropped like a hot potato. Overall tax reform needs to be done. Letting the shrubs tax cuts for the rich expire is insignificant except with respect to a political victory.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:36 PM

23. no, not all opinions are valid.

 

sorry.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:48 PM

25. Thank you. Too true.

But we must give equal weight to all opinions, no matter how wrongheaded or stupid, lest we not seem progressive enough.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:34 PM

28. All opinions "are equally valid" is a sore spot around the house...

equal validity implies that such opinions would be equally well grounded or justifiable, or well-argued/well presented.

Weaning freshman collegians away from the notion that opinions are equal under the myth that all differences of opinion boil down to matters of libertine personal preference is a recurring theme of how tough a day the day has been.






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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #28)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:12 PM

37. +1 And some widely hyped opinions are smoke screens, too.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:26 PM

27. "Opinions are like buttholes,

everyone has one and they ALL stink!"

No, not all opinions are valid. Some are emotion-based and some are fact-based. Of the fact-based variety, there are informed and uninformed opinions. Of the informed opinions, there are different levels of information. And of the most informed opinions, they are still dependent on how the individual processes and perceives the information which forms the conclusions the individual reaches.

So, actually, very few (if any) opinions could be considered "valid".

But as for your premise that the "fiscal cliff" is a complex matter - yes, I think most of us can agree on that. And being able to find something that most people can agree to is the first step in reaching a consensus.

Good job!

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Response to NashvilleLefty (Reply #27)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:50 PM

29. YOU HAVE CONVINCED ME

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Response to kentuck (Reply #29)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:11 PM

36. Cool! Then we agree on TWO things!

Progress!

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:56 PM

30. "one opinion is as valid as another" is horseshit

No opinion is valid unless backed up by facts. The facts can only be true for one opinion.

At least in my opinion

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:04 PM

31. Illinois went apeshit when raising taxes 2% in 2011. Last time I brought it up, all replied, "when


... is that going to start?"

Er, uhm, two years ago.


Folks didn't notice all that much when holiday began. And they will forget about it months after the holiday ends.

For that matter I like shocking people with the phrase, "we have to stop cutting taxes all the time." It goes against the accepted belief that we continually raise taxes. It is reality. But it is not the accepted reality.


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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:13 PM

33. I think over the cliff

It seems to me, this is a manufactured crisis; the PTB are like those assholes yelling in your ear to make up your mind, so loud that you can't think rationally, and you end up doing something horribly stupid because you can't think straight with all the GD noise. Step back, get perspective, then act calmly and rationally.

Now, the vindictive side of me says that tax breaks to the wealthy, unfunded war, and corporate welfare got us into this deficit hole to begin with, so they're the ones who should be penalized in order to get us out of it.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:15 PM

35. bu$h* only got these taxcuts passed by making them 'temporary'

let them expire.

then give 98% of the people a tax cut and dare the repukes to vote against it.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:44 PM

43. Stop Calling it the Fiscal Cliff... or Slope or curb...

All of the talk and consentration on cuts here or revenues there is just bullshit.
All of that side-steps the real issue... JOBS!!

Jobs... good paying jobs... will drive the deficit down. Plain and simple. It's really not that hard to understand. 50,000 manufacturing sites have dried up and gone away in this country and with it millions and millions of jobs... all of which created both consumer demand and tax revenue. Both of which are needed to fix the *defict issue* and *fiscal cliff*.

With the shift in focus from worker compensation and morale by businesses to an all-out drive for profit at the expense of all else and the resulting regulations and laws that purchased, government has facilitated the demise of the tax base. Consumer confidence fell, the tax base disappeared and the detrimental socio-economic conditions like layoffs, forclosures (personal experience), unemployment, homelessness, etc., all shot up.

The past 30 years or so has bared witness to the effect of under-restrained capitalism and the effect on our ability to provide for our people. Not only have we lost millions of good-paying jobs, many of the jobs that were already here have had their wages slashed and the workload of the workers piled on. This has the effect of reducing both demand AND tax base. All the while those at the top have had their salaries skyrocket and their tax load plummet.

Workers are also drivers of the economy. Workers buy stuff. With all of that comes tax revenue. With all of that comes the ability to afford our social programs. What needs to happen is business needs to pony up some economic loyalty to THIS country and start 1. Hiring and 2. Paying better wages. Because, beleive it or not, when people have the money to buy stuff, businesses will thrive and so will the economy and so will the treasury. This will cost the elites short term fortunes, but will garner long term stability and wealth. When the middle class does well, the rich do well also.

Unfortunately, what will be needed is legislation to FORCE the wealthy to give it up because they won't do it on their own. They have no economic loyalty to this country. The only thing they care about is more dollars and it doesn't matter who suffers because of it. Some would call it class warfare, but the same has been happening in reverse for a hundred years. It's high time for it to work the other way for a few decades... we need to get more balance in this world.

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