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Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:11 AM

DU POLL: Will Capitalism as we see it today eventually fail?

My hunch is capitalism will cease to exist in the 21st century. It does not serve well millions upon millions of people and often is simply a tool for the exploitation of others. Also, the concept of endless growth to succeed in a finite space makes little sense into the future. It often rewards the worst behaviors in mankind.

43 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Yes
35 (81%)
No
5 (12%)
Maybe
2 (5%)
Why question the best economic system in the world?
1 (2%)
I got mine, so what's the big deal?
0 (0%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

66 replies, 3710 views

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Reply DU POLL: Will Capitalism as we see it today eventually fail? (Original post)
RKP5637 Nov 2012 OP
corkhead Nov 2012 #1
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #5
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #2
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #6
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #7
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #10
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #12
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #15
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #16
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #22
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #26
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #30
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #32
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #50
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #14
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #18
demwing Nov 2012 #3
bowens43 Nov 2012 #4
jpljr77 Nov 2012 #8
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #19
jpljr77 Nov 2012 #24
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #29
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #31
LeftInTX Nov 2012 #48
Nay Nov 2012 #9
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #33
Cresent City Kid Nov 2012 #58
sendero Nov 2012 #11
HughBeaumont Nov 2012 #13
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #35
Selatius Nov 2012 #17
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #37
gollygee Nov 2012 #20
libtodeath Nov 2012 #21
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #23
libtodeath Nov 2012 #27
Ganja Ninja Nov 2012 #25
Eyes of the World Nov 2012 #28
PDJane Nov 2012 #34
RomneyLies Nov 2012 #36
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #38
RomneyLies Nov 2012 #40
Comrade_McKenzie Nov 2012 #39
Daniel537 Nov 2012 #43
flamingdem Nov 2012 #41
Daniel537 Nov 2012 #42
RomneyLies Nov 2012 #45
randome Nov 2012 #46
leftstreet Nov 2012 #49
white_wolf Nov 2012 #59
Brickbat Nov 2012 #44
nadinbrzezinski Nov 2012 #47
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #52
leftstreet Nov 2012 #51
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #53
frostfern Nov 2012 #54
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #57
bluedigger Nov 2012 #55
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #56
TheKentuckian Nov 2012 #60
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #61
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #65
Ron Green Nov 2012 #62
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #64
nydem14499rsgx Nov 2012 #63
RKP5637 Nov 2012 #66

Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:18 AM

1. Yes, and I fear it will take the planet circling the bowl down with it.

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Response to corkhead (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:31 AM

5. Yep, I have a similar fear. It will not go down/change or adapt to a new system quietly. One of

the chief problems I see in capitalism is that as people rise in the accumulation of wealth, they tear down the structures that allowed them to rise in effect severing the bridges to greater wealth for the majority ...

Strict laws could prevent this, but often capitalists worm their way into positions of influence, power and money such that they write and control those laws, hence, capitalism spins further and further out of control for the majority to benefit from capitalism. We see that with the austerity kick now, for example, it's good for them over there, but not for me 'cause I got mine. What a ridiculous and archaic system for the 21st century.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:25 AM

2. What System Will It Be Replaced With?

And can you point me to a place where this system is operational so I can evaluate it.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:32 AM

6. Not at this time. n/t

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:33 AM

7. Why does it already have to be operational?

Maybe we (the figurative we of the future) can come up with something new and better.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:35 AM

10. Wouldn't You Want To Try On A Pair Of Shoes Before You Buy Them?/nt

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #10)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:38 AM

12. Who's going to try on those shoes? Why not us? /nt

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:41 AM

15. If You Were Building A Home Wouldn't You Ask The Builder For A Blueprint?

Ask to see the homes he built?


Maybe ask to see how the homes he built are holding up ten years after he or she built them, twenty years?, thirty years?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #15)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:44 AM

16. I'm going to try one more time ...

Who is this builder? Why does it have to be something already tried out on others? Why can't it be us?

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:54 AM

22. If Researchers Wanted To Try Out An Investigational Drug Whose Side Effects Are Unknown

If researchers want to try out an investigational drug whose side effects are unknown would you volunteer and would you volunteer others who may or may not be amenable.


I see lots of arguing against a straw man in this thread. None of us are in favor of a system that leaves some without and some with too much...

However, some of us want to see what it is replaced with.




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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:59 AM

26. Yeah, I was just going to say that ...

we're a little off topic, because the poll is just asking if we think capitalism as we practise it will fail. I think it will, whether or not we have an alternative or not. If we have no models or ideas to go to from there, we're going to be in a much worse situation than if we have some idea.

But, my point is, leaving analogies behind, where exactly can we test a entirely new or even modified economic system? Maybe it SHOULD be us since we're largely responsible for out of control form of capitialism that's in existance today. I understand that you want to see something that works first, but we may just not get that luxury.

And as I said in my other post, I don't mean we're ever going to flip a switch. Things have to be done gradually, but we have to stop this inequitable system that's causing so much damage. A lot of it has to do with just changing attitudes, I think (such as the whole things will always grow and that's a GOOD thing). Towards the Earth, each other, and what we need to be "happy".

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #26)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:09 AM

30. Let Me Give You An Analogy

My gf and I lost everything in The Great Recession. However, our friend lent us his second car that he rarely used. It was a twenty year old Cadillac that was falling apart and was terrible on gas. I was spending most of my time buying replacement parts and finding it mechanics to install it. I used to complain how much I hated that car. My girlfriend, the sensible one, said "imagine, how you would feel without it."

Well, my friend needed it back, and I was stuck at home I realized how valuable that crappy car was.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #30)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:18 AM

32. I said let's stop with the analogies, lol



This is really my last post because, as much as I respect you, I don't think you're really listening to what I'm saying here. I'm saying we don't have any place to fully test an economic system. We may not be able to be certain that something new will work before we are forced to go with it and I do NOT think we are going to have a choice about whether we do something different or keep things as we are. I think we are going to be FORCED to change. And I think we would be better off to have some idea of where we would LIKE to go and have made SOME steps towards that before it happens.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #30)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:21 PM

50. Meanwhile, your next door banker neighbor was driving a brand new Lincoln Navigator and

 

you barely even noticed.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:39 AM

14. That's my thought here too, that it's a model for the future, not necessarily operational

at this time. Capitalism was spun out of past models and was probably the best system for certain phases of progress, but times have changed and will IMO change greatly in the future. Also, we have better modeling/simulation systems today for development of better systems. ... the real difficulty is getting people to work on a new system while leaving their selfishness, primitive survival instincts and gut reactions behind.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:46 AM

18. Right and I think some people ...

seem to feel that those who are acknowledging the deep problems we have in our system right now want to thorw a switch and instantly become some other already tried form of economic system, but that's never going to happen. We have to work towards better, more sustainable, more equitable systems.

And you're right - the real problem is getting people to think clearly about it.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:26 AM

3. No. Capitalism as we see it today will not "eventually" fail

It has already failed

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:29 AM

4. it's already failed.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:34 AM

8. No. Maybe the American brand of exploitative "top-down" capitalism. But capitalism is strong.

In countries that practice welfare capitalism, like the Scandinavian states, innovation and jobs created by traditional incentive-inspired capitalism (i.e., "if I have a great idea and execute it properly, I will get rich") are very important. This common sense approach of encouraging the best parts of capitalism, while providing social services for all, is working very well.

Capitalism is extremely important and it works very well in most countries. We kind of took it to an unholy extreme. It's not capitalism's fault.

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Response to jpljr77 (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:46 AM

19. Yes, that is a form of capitalism that could work IMO, modeled such that it benefits all and not

mainly those that claw their way to the top and then exploit the many ... or the inheritors that take and dump on others, and contribute nothing to the betterment of the whole society. In America IMO we make capitalism a win/lose sport rather than a win/win for the majority. The way we are taking it today in America it's a system IMO that's going to burn itself out.


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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:56 AM

24. We're a lot closer to a much better system than anyone realizes, I think.

President Obama has proposed to raise the long-term capital gains tax rate to 20% from the current 15% (for high-income earners) and more importantly, to once again recognize dividend income as ordinary income, with the tax rate on that income falling wherever it falls for individuals based on their total income (dividends are currently taxed at 15%, like long-term capital gains).

This is a HUGE shift from the past 10 years, where incentives to passively invest wealth outstripped incentives to start businesses and spend, which might actually help the economy. I think economics students in the very near future will be studying the effects of the "disastrous" Bush tax cuts. It's been so bad.

Combine that with two things that have already happened and can't be reversed (a very muscular Consumer Financial Protection Agency and, of course, healthcare reform) and we're fairly rapidly moving toward a better state.

It's hard to see through all the noise, but if we step back, it's coming around (in my opinion).

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Response to jpljr77 (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:03 AM

29. Don't You Think Some Folks Here Are Looking For More A Fundamental Departure From The Present System

Don't you think some folks here are looking for a more fundamental departure from the present system than an adjustment in the capital gains tax?

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Response to jpljr77 (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:11 AM

31. Yep, I think it will/could improve as long as the ship is steered in the right direction. You make

a great point I've been thinking too. ""I think economics students in the very near future will be studying the effects of the "disastrous" Bush tax cuts. It's been so bad."" I think we might be in a renaissance of sorts wherein more and more people are not taking the current economic system as a given and would like to see many succeed.

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Response to jpljr77 (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:18 PM

48. This is a start

I feel that we need more reforms.

Even with Obama reelected, we've got some Supreme Court justices who are of the Supply Side (Trickle Down) thought.

It is going to take more regulation. Better tax structure. More reforms. On the other hand, change doesn't come easy. And success will depend on how much resistance is met.



It used to be that presidents, both Dem and Republican supported principled, textbook economic policies.

Then Reagan came along with radical dumbing down ideas. It messed us up.


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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:34 AM

9. Yes, because its inherent assumption is that growth can continue forever. nt

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Response to Nay (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:19 AM

33. As for example in housing ... Often we hear build, build, build ... but does that mean we

have a house, for example, on every sq. inch. In mathematics there's the infinity test wherein you run a model out to infinity to see if it holds (survives). To me, the current form of capitalism based on a growth model fails an infinity test.

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Response to Nay (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:59 AM

58. It began with a seemingly limitless supply of natural resources

From the start, a relative few claimed ownership of the resources and/or the land that contained them, an economic system based on calling dibs. It is a linear system, extract resources from the earth, turn it into stuff, assign arbitrary monetary values to the stuff and the labor to make it, pay the predetermined winners and losers accordingly, then dump the waste. Even finding another planet or asteroid with resources is only a temporary fix, the system is fated to stop growing at some point.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:37 AM

11. The kind of capitalism..

.... we have in the US is already failing. The economic problems we are saddled with are not going away, they are going to get worse and worse until the masses demand change.

We saw the beginnings of change when billions of dollars failed to buy the presidency. But the folks behind that are not going to give up, they will redouble their efforts.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:38 AM

13. As we see it now? Near-pure capitalism is already a massive failure.

Democratic Socialism peppered with highly regulated capitalism is the best and, for us, ONLY way to go at this point. Greed-based Laissez Fail has ruined America, broken its social contract, broken its corporate contract, destroyed the environment and destroyed America's future. A country that refuses to help their citizenry and refuses to improve their infrastructure is a country that won't survive long-term.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:58 AM

35. Sad, but quite true. The current model is gutting the country much as corporations that benefited

employees have been gutted or moved out of the country. It's a recipe for short-term survival, but clearly not for long-term survival and is ushering in a dystopia of sorts.



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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:45 AM

17. We won't end capitalism. Mother nature will shut it down for us.

When the gas runs out and when the resources are depleted, we'll either change or die. Regardless of what happens, likely, a few billion people will die before the whole of humanity accepts change, and it'll likely be the poorest billions that die first. It'll be wars fought over depleting resources and wars fought over economic policy.

The current economic model of continuing growth in an environment of finite resources will deplete planetary resources. We live in a crisis and do not know it's a crisis. I fear we'll only change after the planet is trying to kill us off.

By then, global warming will be at catastrophic levels. The Arctic Ice will be gone; droughts will hit once wet areas destroying farmland; whole species of animals will die under the stress; the rainforests will likely be logged to death at that point; and the oceans will have risen a feet or several, flooding major coastal cities that haven't prepared. New Orleans 2005 was just a taste.

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Response to Selatius (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:01 AM

37. Sadly, for the most part, it seems to me humans often only react to catastrophic

events ... then change for the better sometimes happens ... but this time around that will be too late.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:46 AM

20. Radical free market capitalism is finally failing

and people are catching on to how we're tricked into accepting it.

The question is whether, as during the Great Depression, we shift to a less extreme version of capitalism, or whether the whole thing falls apart. I hope we end up back in a more Keynesian place I guess.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:49 AM

21. It will fail because it is not sustainable

i just hate to see a solidly socialist economy dismissed instantly as a eventual replacement.

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #21)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:55 AM

23. What Would A Solidly Socialist Economy Look Like And Where Is It Practiced?/nt

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:01 AM

27. Maybe we can start one

for all the excesses and hurt capitalism has brought why is that so many peoples default system to base things on?

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:59 AM

25. I thought it already failed when we bailed out the banks.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:02 AM

28. I thought it failed before FDR saved it

 

How could Walmart pay so little if Uncle Sam wasn't there to pick up the slack?

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:51 AM

34. It already has failed, we're just looking at the long decline.

It wants thinking about before we end up in the Dark Ages all over again.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:01 AM

36. The beauty of capitalism in a democratic republic is the pendulum swings.

 

When various industries are under regulated, the abuses become noticed and regulations are put in place.

When regulations get too onerous, the over regulation gets noticed and regulations are eased back.

Some times the pendulum swings too far in one direction or the other, but correction always comes.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #36)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:04 AM

38. I hope so, I think we might be seeing the beginning of it swinging back ... more and

more people seem to be realizing the current path is broken.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #38)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:07 AM

40. Sadly, the past three decades have seen the pendulum swing waaaaaay to far to deregulation

 

so correcting it is going to take some time.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:05 AM

39. A mixed economy works when the wrong people aren't in charge...

 

The extremes of both sides of the economic spectrum have been complete failures.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #39)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:12 AM

43. +1

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:10 AM

41. Dewey quote:

The ultimate aim of production is not production of goods but the production of free human beings associated with one another on terms of equality. ~John Dewey

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:12 AM

42. Capitalism, per se, will always be around

Its just human nature. But the way it is today, with the 1% controlling so much of the wealth and resources, i think that's sooner or later headed towards the boneyard. More and more people are waking up to the corruption and unfairness our winner-take-all system has created, but there needs to be more pressure on the politicos and more people need to get involved before a massive, radical change takes place.

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Response to Daniel537 (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:19 AM

45. Capitalism existed in the Soviet Union.

 

It was in the form of black markets, but it still existed.

You cannot wipe it out. It is the single most tenacious form of economy.

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Response to Daniel537 (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:42 AM

46. It IS human nature. You're right. Obviously since it's been around for so long.

UNREGULATED capitalism -the wet dream of a frictionless economy- is where we veer off the edge.

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Response to randome (Reply #46)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:20 PM

49. I always steal wallets at the scene of an accident

There is no evidence capitalism is part of 'human nature'

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Response to Daniel537 (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:21 AM

59. Capitalism is not part of human nature.

As a system it is fairly recent. Before capitalism feudal societies were the norm and the economy was based around the manorial system.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:17 AM

44. Bring the day.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:45 AM

47. The current form of predatory

Sorry, refuse to call it capitalism, is already failing.

I suspect it will be replaced by a highly regulated form of social democracy. This is the fear of so called conservatives.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #47)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:56 PM

52. Yep, predatory, exactly!!! n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:21 PM

51. Capitalism has already failed n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:58 PM

53. The problem isn't capitalism, it is unregulated, uncontrolled capitalism

I don't think it will end as long as the US is in it's current form. We are headed for the land of Idiocracy.

Soon we will be watering our crops with gatorade.

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:22 PM

54. Here's the thing...

Any solution to truly stabilize the world economy is going to have to be a global effort. What really brought the world out of the last Great Depression was the Marshall Plan, where the US spent a lot it's own resources rebuilding Japan and Germany. That was back when the US had a trade surplus a positive symbiotic relation with other parts of the world. Now the US has a parasitic economic relationship with the rest of the world. The US consumes what the rest of the world produces and the surplus profit is all funneled to Wall Street to finance debt and speculation. It bit back hard in 2007-2008 but the underlying problem is still not fixed. The Euro is teetering on the edge, and all the austerity induced depression in southern Europe is holding the world economy down. The outlook isn't good because the Euro is pretty much doomed. Also, our trade balance is still way out of whack because Asia is not growing the way it was. I think being a "currency of last resort" the US dollar is still way overvalued relative to other currencies. This is keeping energy prices in check but screws the US on exports.

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Response to frostfern (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:38 AM

57. Excellent analysis IMO! Thanks! n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:32 PM

55. It has almost reached it's limits.

Capitalism requires access to new resources to exploit and new markets to drive demand. With the advent of the global market it has tapped nearly all the resources it can and there are no new markets to open. It is now in the process of self cannibalization by turning labor into capital. Once labor is consumed it will collapse as a hollow economic system.

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Response to bluedigger (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:36 AM

56. And I sincerely hope it takes the 'Captains of Industry' down with it ... n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:14 AM

60. Capitalism as we know it is a failure for most and our world

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:19 AM

61. Any system that must constantly grow to survive cannot sustain in a finite environment.

 

Even "good" capitalism must eventually be replaced by a stable system.

The good news is that no species whose population constantly grows can survive for long. It took humanity until the very early 19th century to reach its first billion. That was made possible because of scientific and technological advancement. The next billion took about 125 years. We are now adding another billion every decade and that rate is only going to increase as we move forward. So the chances are that we can possibly keep capitalism going long enough for it to see our own extinction.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #61)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:46 AM

65. It's all going over the cliff, eventually, and will sadly take billions of people with it ... n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:31 AM

62. Read Richard Wolff's "Democracy at Work: A Cure for Capitalism."

He demonstrates that what's been called "socialism" and "communism" is simply State Capitalism. His answer is Workers' Self-Directed Enterprises (WSDE's), in which the creators of the surpluses decide what to do with the surpluses.

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Response to Ron Green (Reply #62)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:43 AM

64. Thanks for the book suggestion! n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:35 AM

63. yes, no doubt about it

 

Though I'm unsure what will replace it.

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Response to nydem14499rsgx (Reply #63)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:52 AM

66. We hope it will be for the better for the majority of people, but if

the country were militarized due to a widespread economic failure, depending on TPTB at the time, it could be even worse. I've pondered that same question many times, I have no idea.

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