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Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:51 PM

Third way democrat relative says progressives and liberals

are foolish not to put entitlement cuts on the table.

Here is his fb post:

"In the recent election, voters endorsed balance and compromise and sacrifice from all but the destitute. They want our government to stop posturing and function. If progressives decide that voters chose only the liberal view, they are as delusional as the tea bag adherents became after 2010 and I will tear up my Democratic party membership and become an independent."

Any help in a response?

He is in his late 60's, had a steady government job and was able to retire. I don't think he understands how impossible such a life is for younger generations. How betrayed younger generations feel at the idea of cuts after a lifetime of less secure job situations, no pensions, longer hours etc etc. The working class has already made sacrifices and continues to do so in this horrid economy accepting less and working harder. I say no discussion of further cuts to entitlements until the wealthy and corporations are made to pay their fair share, until defense spending has been cut and there is more oversight of defense contractors spending. Only after such sacrifices have been made by those who have sacrificed nothing can we discuss further cuts to entitlements.

I'm sure he wouldn't give up his ss or medicare. Why is he asking younger generations who are already looking at the very real possibility of never being able to retire to give up theirs?

Any help appreciated.

21 replies, 1492 views

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Arrow 21 replies Author Time Post
Reply Third way democrat relative says progressives and liberals (Original post)
abelenkpe Nov 2012 OP
still_one Nov 2012 #1
winterpark Nov 2012 #9
Buns_of_Fire Nov 2012 #10
still_one Nov 2012 #12
hollysmom Nov 2012 #2
freshwest Nov 2012 #3
abelenkpe Nov 2012 #16
freshwest Nov 2012 #18
Politicalboi Nov 2012 #4
abelenkpe Nov 2012 #17
woo me with science Nov 2012 #5
jeff47 Nov 2012 #6
PETRUS Nov 2012 #7
abelenkpe Nov 2012 #13
PETRUS Nov 2012 #19
Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2012 #8
Zorra Nov 2012 #11
abelenkpe Nov 2012 #14
gollygee Nov 2012 #15
Panasonic Nov 2012 #20
abelenkpe Nov 2012 #21

Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:58 PM

1. They are called entitlements because we ARE entitled to them. We have paid into them. Would they

accept an insurance policy they paid into, not to pay according to the agreement?

I think not

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Response to still_one (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:35 PM

9. I have a problem with the word "entitlements" that connotes that you are entitled to something

even if you didn't work for or contribute to it. I think we should replace entitlements with "Earned Benefits" We contribute to the system thereby earning the benefit in the latter part of our lives.

Just my 2cents

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Response to winterpark (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:02 PM

10. A large part of the problem is that the word has been corrupted.

Like so many other words (like "liberal"), people like Frank Luntz have instructed their clients that the word should never be spoken without a sneer on their face.

Whether it's easier to just adopt a new phrase or attempt to take the old one back, I don't know.

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Response to winterpark (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:10 PM

12. Benefits from insurance policies are entitlements

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:59 PM

2. Wouldn't it be fair to cut his government pension

shared sacrifice and all.

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:59 PM

3. I'd tell him that if those protections were good enough for him, why not pass them on to others?

His parents fought for him to have these things, so why would he dishonor their sacrifices by denying it to the next generation?

Where did his gratitude go after having been given such a gift?

I don't buy the Third Way label, the guy sounds like someone who never cared enough to be a Democrat in the first place. He hasn't got the staying power to understand it's not all about his own self. Sorry that this is someone you are dealing with right now, but that's my read on it. I can't say it in a more loving way, you may have to disregard my take on it.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:21 PM

16. His third way nonsense is shocking

Truly he has been a life long democrat. My reaction is pretty much the same as yours. Personally insulted and disappointed in him but trying to find a better way to say that.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 03:04 PM

18. I hope someone will come up with a better response than I did. Good luck.

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:01 PM

4. Ask him if he has kids

Would he be able to support them when they no longer have benefits coming? Some of these older folks think I got mine, but it could come back and bite them in the ass.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:42 PM

17. He has kids

Two actually. One from his first marriage and his adopted adult daughter. Also raised his grandchild when things went bad for her mother and father. She's now in college. Really it's confusing and a bit heartbreaking that he would make such a statement. I do agree with this article though:

"It's now clear that ordinary citizens will also be subjected to a full bore messaging campaign to persuade them that they should regard this counterproductive sacrifice as good for them," notes leading econoblogger Yves Smith at Naked Capitalism. She also notes, correctly, that "most Americans have a simple response to the notion of 'reforming' these popular programs: Cut military budgets and raise taxes on upper income groups".

I have my problems with a lot of the over the top hysterics at Naked Capitalism and their attacks on Elisabeth Warren but this is spot on.

And this (also from the article):

The idea of a bipartisan plan to grow the economy by balanced deficit reduction is understandably quite popular. It ranks right up there with the pizza-beer-and-ice-cream-heart-healthy-weight-loss-diet plan: The perfect solution for a fact-free world. But, as a recent letter from 350 economists points out, "oo many in Washington are fixated on cutting public spending to balance the budget, not on how to put people back to work and get our economy going", but "there is no theory of economics that explains how we can deflate our way to recovery". To the contrary, as they pointed out, the opposite is true: "As Great Britain, Ireland, Spain and Greece have shown, inflicting austerity on a weak economy leads to deeper recession, rising unemployment and increasing misery."

No one in government is talking about how to put people back to work. I hear this baloney about a skills gap. It's fiction. There's no skills gap. There is a wage gap. Why take a job that will not allow one to survive? In my industry jobs are fast disappearing because of subsidies offered by other countries. Jobs are being bribed away from our shores. Who proposes to address this?

During the election I was encouraged to see the president talk about returning manufacturing to the US. But what about tech jobs? Or entertainment jobs? Or any once good paying job that is fast disappearing as companies seek to slash the cost of labor while enriching CEO's and stock holders?

Anyway....sorry for the rant.

edited to add: Special thanks to Petrus for linking to that article

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:07 PM

6. Voters did not vote for a balanced approach.

Voters chose Obama by a large margin (for a modern presidential race)
Voters gave the Democrats more seats in the Senate, even though Republicans had 1/2 as many seats to defend.
Voters chose Democrats for the House over Republicans by a two-to-one margin. Republicans only hold the House because gerrymandering split the Democratic vote.

That's not "we want a balanced approach". That's "we want Democrats".

If that doesn't work, ask how much of his Social Security we should cut.

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:24 PM

7. Read the article from this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021893697

And then get back to your relative.

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Response to PETRUS (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:18 PM

13. Thank you!

I'm just going to post that article in response to his post. He is well educated, immigrated to this country, joined the peace corps, has worked for the federal government for years. He actually is a life long democrat. Why he buys into this third way baloney is beyond me. The article is very thoughtful so hopefully it will make him reconsider or at least illustrate why I, and clearly many others do not agree with him.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 05:17 PM

19. Glad to help.

Hope things are friendly between you and your relative. Political differences can be touchy...

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:31 PM

8. Volunteer to tear up his "Democratic Party membership" and say thank-you.

You might also mentioned that 3rd Way Democrats are already in charge of the party and it will be downright shocking if they don't sell out just as he wants them to do.

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:09 PM

11. Just let him go. I wish all Third Wayers would leave the party. What are they gonna do? Vote GOP?

Hmmm....I suppose that there is a pretty good chance of that.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:19 PM

14. I know huh?

In my experience those that claim to be independent just end up voting republican. I can't really see him doing that.

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:20 PM

15. I completely reject this statement:

"In the recent election, voters endorsed balance and compromise and sacrifice from all but the destitute.""

Where did he get that?

Tell him to read the book Shock Doctrine, or watch the video (free online - google it) based on the book. This is just the radical free market capitalists trying to scare us into giving them more money. It is nothing more. He shouldn't fall for it. No one should.

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Response to abelenkpe (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 05:18 PM

20. How old is this moronic relative of yours?

 

Tell him Third Way policies have been nothing but MASSIVE FAILURES.

NAFTA? FAIL.


I'm sure there's more, but NAFTA is one of the biggest Third Wayer legislation that is a massive FAILURE for American jobs.

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #20)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:58 PM

21. 70? I'm guessing

I should know.

I'm just insulted at being called a tea bagger for not wanting further cuts to social programs. He and his wife (who again are life long democrats and I adore them) also claim these changes wouldn't effect me only my kids. First I don't think that's true and second why on earth would I be OK with that?

Do they not notice that none of their kids or their kids cousins is able to afford the same standard of living as they enjoy even though the families received more education and have two working parents? But we should bargain away what little is left of the social safety net? It's OK to burden our kids even more. Ugh. It's frustrating.

They also claim the commondreams article is meandering and unfocused. I'm about ready to give up this conversation but if you have any other suggestions please let me know.

You are so right about NAFTA.

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