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Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:30 AM

I just spent $6.94 on a pound and a half of Organic Tomatoes. Honestly it bugged me, then I saw this

I bought Organic, non-gmo; Kale, Bananas, bread and tomatoes... cost me sixteen bucks... I was starting to question trying to buy all Organic.... then I popped open facbook... first thing I saw was this:



now, I feel a little bit better... still to pricey, but the alternative is much worse. BTW, the sandwich I made was super tasty... the tomatoes were the best.

hope everybody had a nice Thanksgiving

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Reply I just spent $6.94 on a pound and a half of Organic Tomatoes. Honestly it bugged me, then I saw this (Original post)
trailmonkee Nov 2012 OP
Incitatus Nov 2012 #1
silverweb Nov 2012 #5
Incitatus Nov 2012 #7
silverweb Nov 2012 #18
Michigan Alum Nov 2012 #22
JSK Nov 2012 #42
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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:34 AM

1. I prefer organic tomatos because I can actually taste them.

I'm skeptical that GM food causes cancer, but I'll pay more to taste my food.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:53 AM

5. Not sure about GM crops themselves causing cancer.

What I am sure of, though, is that many GM crops are designed to withstand huge amounts of pesticides, and those are well known to cause cancer.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:26 AM

7. This may be an issue where I should do more research.

I assumed if I thoroughly rinsed my produce, the pesticides from GM would be minimal and negligible. Maybe they do have a cumulative effect. Eliminating all GM food from a diet would be a challenge. I could just buy only fresh produce that is organic. Restaurants would certainly serve GM food and most canned items would use them. That would require significant changes to lifestyle and home dining.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:07 AM

18. It can be very hard.

Hard to get both complete and accurate information, and hard to get a varied/adequate diet free of harmful chemicals without (1) working at it and (2) going way over budget.

I have read that it's not possible to just wash away many pesticides, that they often permeate foods because of frequent spraying from germination to harvest. I can't cite the source for this because I read so many related publications and don't keep notes, but my overall conclusion has been that it's important to stick to genuine organics as much as possible.

Now even the labeling is deceptive in many cases, thanks to big food corporate pressure and weaseling. They really, really don't want us to know what they're selling us, but we just have to do the best we can.

I eat at home most of the time anyway. I buy non-GMO, pesticide-free organics as much as possible, and avoid prepared packaged foods that contain preservatives, etc. Eating out could be a problem for many people. We only eat out a couple times a month and try to patronize only local organic/vegetarian places. Of course, we pay somewhat higher prices for that, but it's worth it.

In your case, maybe you could start by checking around for restaurants that feature healthy, organic food. They're very "in" right now in a lot of places, so you might well come up with several in your area. Many grocery stores now sell frozen organic fruits and vegetables, free-range antibiotic-free meats, etc, as well. Reading labels is also one of the most important things you can do. The fewer ingredients the better and usually, if you don't recognize something or can't pronounce it, you probably don't want to eat it.

Good luck! Let us know how you make out as you explore your options.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:52 AM

22. I saw a documentary and it said that there are certain foods that are more impt to get organic.

Celery, apples, spinach, strawberries, peaches, nectarines, grapes, sweet bell peppers, potatoes, blueberries. With non-organic, they often spray the seeds when they plant them, and throughout the process. On some produce that was tested they found 60 different pesticides. Scary....

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:23 AM

42. If you eat the skin, buy organic. n/t

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:39 AM

81. and dairy

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:24 PM

123. Exactly.

When something is doused in chemicals from seed to harvest, how can it avoid absorbing those chemicals? Sprays don't just sit on the skin and then rinse off; they permeate the skin and get into the flesh underneath.

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 07:52 AM

143. They say

anything that you eat the skins is better to buy organic, whereas a banana, which you peel... is fine to buy no organic. (It's a waste of money.) I'm sure some people will be able to argue that's not the case, but it's a general rule I follow. I do the best I can. I do a lot of shopping for produce at our farmer's market.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 06:26 AM

27. I don't have a citation, but

I've read that canned fruit and veggies use far less pesticides than those that are to be sold fresh and it makes sense since pesticides are expensive and the canning process of course kills all pathogens.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:47 AM

39. I'm not sure if it's true,

but if it is it's probably because canned fruit and vegetables don't have to be completely unblemished.

I would imagine the biggest difference would be stuff like pumpkin, peaches, apples, strawberries, etc. The stuff that isn't going to look good enough for most grocery stores unless you layer on enough poison to kill every bug within a hundred feet.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:59 PM

118. Except you never want to have any tomato-based product in a can because of the acid in tomatoes.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:26 AM

58. start w/non-GMO soy and corn, and non-GMO dairy

They're supposedly the worst.
I think spending more on better quality food is an
excellent investment in health. I've never been able
to afford both health insurance and quality food.
It shouldn't have to be a choice but I'd rather eat
well now, tomorrow never comes.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:58 PM

126. Rinsing vegetables cannot rid it of systemic poisons

which have been incorporated into the very cells of the produce.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:19 AM

69. We don't know if they cause cancer or not.

Because there have been exactly ZERO long term studies on the effects of GE and GMO foods. Monsanto was only required to provide 90 days' worth of studies on the safety of GE foods. Professor Gilles-Eric Seralin, this fall, found that rats developed tumors after 120 days of being fed GE corn. Though his study methods have been criticized, there are real concerns about the effects of those foods and what we DON'T know.

Why was Monsanto only required to submit a study that lasted just 90 days? Was that a deliberate cut-off, because they knew it took longer for tumors to develop? More studies are needed.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:39 PM

104. Another factor to consider...

I haven't seen mention of the fact that most large scale produce growers/distributors go way beyond the GM and pesticide treatment as much of the produce you get is also irradiated for longer shelf life, especially berries of any kind. You can't wash away radiation either, and nobody's talking about what the affects of GM/pesticides AND irradiation will do. I bet there's no publicly accessed research on THAT. Eat organic whenever possible, and grow your own if you can. You can also opt for dehydrating fruits and veggies as well as canning many items so you can have these foods out of season. Know what's in your food as much of what you get from the store, regardless of labeling, is bereft of nutrition... the reason for eating in the first place.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:37 AM

155. Some genetically modified crops are designed to resist insects that would damage them, so pesticides

aren't needed for that type. I generally don't like the idea of genetically modified anything, so I avoid.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:39 AM

21. Organic food almost always tastes better.

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:13 AM

52. Reminds me of a taste test I saw at an organic market...

 

Regular consumers of organic food picked the "regular" food over the organic by a wide margin in a blind taste test.

Psychosomatic response. If you pay more and think its better for you then *magic* it will taste better.

Edit: Found it on youtube but it is from Penn and Telller's Bullshit show. First result for "Penn Teller Organic Test" on google if anyone is interested.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #52)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:55 AM

66. Their show is called Bullshit for a reason!

I thought they were interesting until I noticed that they are very selective about who/what they include. For example, on their 911 truther debunking they seemed to concentrate on the flakiest comments they could. In the Organic Test video they also seem to be supporting the mainstream. Hmmmm....

Well, these guys are magicians/trickers. I never trust tricksters.

It's why I disliked Romney, the supreme (but incompetent) trickster.

Oh well.




BTW - I can't afford organic.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #52)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:14 AM

152. I assume you have never tasted an oragnic/home grown tomato.

Or maybe it has been so long that you forgot.


It is not about the price. I am well aware of the marketing psychology that higher priced items can have an effect on interpretation of quality.

There is a difference. I have been a guest on more than one occasion for dinner at other people's homes where they have served tomatos, and I could tell if the tomatos I was served were home grown/organic or standard grocery. I could taste the difference. I asked them and their answer confirmed my guess.

I suggest next time you buy a tomato to spend an extra dollar and go for an organic one and see for yourself.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #152)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:36 AM

154. I bought some organic store tomatoes and they were gross

I grow my own, but since someone here said the organic were fabulous, had to try them.

I'll stick to home grown.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #152)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:27 AM

162. Not my area of responsibility...

 

Wife does the cooking.

In any case, I wasn't relating my experience. I was talking about the taste test that I saw.

Folks, like you, who are convinced that they can tell the difference and that the organic will be superior and are largely proven wrong in a blind taste test.

To the point where they cut a regular banana in half, told them that one half was organic and one was not. The organic consumers took a bite of the first, claimed it was average. Then took a bite of the other half (same banana) and ranted and raved about how much better it was.

Check out the video yourself...

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:46 AM

156. I can't agree with that as a rule. Genetically modified produce is harvested early virtually 100%

of the time. Produce that has been allowed to ripen on the vine will naturally taste better. I can't tell the difference between regular produce and organic produce that have the same vine or stem ripening time. But I trust organic more because of a psychological profile of not trusting something that I can't get a fix on, genetically modified food falls into that category for me.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:59 AM

30. My unsupported theory is that taste is directly associated with trace elements and nutrients -

the better tasting, the more nutritious. Better doesn't mean sweeter, it means more complex.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:16 AM

53. This story is fairly recent:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/27/1137174/-Genetically-Modified-GM-Corn-Causes-Cancer-in-Lab-Rats#

Genetically Modified (GM) Corn Causes Cancer in Lab Rats
Sept. 27, 2012

snip...

“NK603 maize (corn), developed by biotech company Monsanto to resist the herbicide glyphosate and approved for animal and human consumption in the European Union, United States and other countries. It reported that the rats developed higher levels of cancers, had larger cancerous tumours and died earlier than controls. The researchers have not conclusively identified a mechanism for the effect.”

=====
It's a short article, worth the read.

Monsanto is evil. Pure. Fucking. Evil.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:30 AM

74. Same here.

Tomatoes don't touch my lips in the winter because they taste like red balls of water.

I'm spoiled, though. I grow my own from July through October and those taste so good that I practically live off Caprese salads and tomato sandwiches during those months.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:24 AM

153. Organic tomatoes come from seed that has not been modified and have a pedigree.

Genetically modified fruit or vegetables are modified to make them have specific characteristics, like drought or insect resistance, or tolerance to shipping, or ripening after being harvested. The modifications can take away flavor. I am not sure about the GMO link to cancer, I have no verified information that is something more than opinion. But I do know vine ripened tomatoes that are grown properly from sustainable seed taste better than any that I can buy from the grocer.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:38 AM

2. nice ad

It remind people why Farmers , especially organic farmers, can be seen as cheats and arrogant crooks.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:45 AM

4. I don't like that ad either.

 

It's very disturbing - the fear and scare tactics.

Is he guaranteeing if you buy his products you Won't get cancer? Let's see that in writing, bud.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:02 AM

12. Organic farmers are seen as cheats and arrogant crooks?

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Response to Fridays Child (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:28 AM

60. Unfortunately....

A lot of so-called "progressives" are woefully uninformed when it comes to this topic

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #60)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:38 AM

80. so-called "progressives"? And just who the hell are you to make the imperious decision that those

who think that ad in the op is awful, are so-called "progressives"?

Not only have I gardened organically for decades, but I know a great deal about the practice and I live in a community that practices not only organic farming on a widespread basis but also practices "closing the loop"- which is an important piece of local, organic practice.

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Response to cali (Reply #80)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:06 PM

92. I have a right to my opinions just like you

And who the hell are you to imply that I don't

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #92)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 05:25 AM

138. []=> ... but that doesn't make you right.

This is a serious point.

I NEVER see any of these "organics" or "naturals" or whatever they call themselves ever working together to create alternatives that are AFFORDABLE FOR WORKING PEOPLE!!!!

You and all of you "organic" and "naturals" and such are not progressives!!

The only thing I see you doing if you show up at a progressive or liberal event is peddle your overpriced granola, chocolates, free range eggs raised next to hydroponically grown pigs!

Jesus Christ on a Tricycle!!!

Chickens are chickens!!!

And for working people, the $0.99 big bag of chicken legs is a much better deal than your free range $3 a drumstick overpriced God knows what that NO WORKING PEOPLE COULD AFFORD!!!

You and your kind are not Progressives... you are not Liberals.

Liberals and Progressives create solutions that work for the poor and working class.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:45 AM

3. Joel is a great farmer but not an organic purist. I doubt he said this...

Though, I'd be pleased if he did.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:59 AM

6. Do you live where you could plant a few things for yourself?

If not, can you participate in a local organic community garden? Or are there any organic CSA groups in your area? Maybe there are other ways, too, that you can support your health without going broke in the process. Where I live, the farmers markets are definitely not for us 99 percenters, so I know how you feel.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:30 AM

8. Have you checked life expectancy and cancer risk statistics lately?

Comparing people who eat an "organic" non-GMO diet compared to everyone else? Factoring out factors like income (which raises life expectancy regardless of diet) and other healthy habits that are likely to go along for the ride when someone takes the extra effort to buy special foods?

From what I've been able to find, there's no conclusive evidence in favor of organic foods. One study that was positive for an organic diet making a difference cited an average life span increase of 17-25 days. I guess when you're near the end every extra moment counts, but I can't see myself expending a whole lot of extra effort and expense over many long years for a few extra hardly guaranteed days at the end of my life.

You can argue about whether the right studies have been done, you can spin conspiracy theories about big agribusiness rigging the science I suppose, but if the anti-cancer and lifespan increasing effects of an organic diet were huge, they'd be hard to hide. Any real effect would have to be a subtle one -- not worthy of smugly sloganeering as if you're steering wide and clear of cancer while everyone else might as well be munching down on PCB and asbestos sandwiches.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:47 AM

10. +10 !!! (NT)

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:07 AM

17. the whole reason why we don't have

Studies of the effect of gmo products is that the GMO companies have fought against labeling the food. If we could label the food then we can study the effects of gmo. Plus the cancer is from use of pesticides on non-organic food.

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:15 AM

33. Whether it's the pesticides or not...

...since those pesticides are there all the time in non-"organic" food, there's either a noticeable effect on cancer rates and longevity, or there isn't. People have been choosing organic diets for many decades now, so there's been ample time for effects of any great magnitude to manifest clearly.

There hasn't been quite as long for GMO-related effects, if any, to show up clearly unless they're incredibly obvious and acute. People would also have to know which kind of food they're getting too, and without labeling, as you mention, we can't get a clear look and how avoiding GMO foods would affect the health of the population at large.

While there are valid reasons for concern in the face of lack of information, it's an overblown reaction to mentally categorize organic, non-GMO food as a wholesome fountain of abundant health, and anything else as POISON!!! that evil corporations are forcing down our unsuspecting throats.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:49 AM

48. Two things

First, most studies are financed by the companies, such as Monsanto, who have the most to gain from GMO crops. They're not going to finance studies that don't promote their view.

Second, GMO crops have not been tested to the extent that drugs, or even food additives like sugar substitutes, have been tested. That's why you see news articles of whole herds of cattle dying when they eat grass that suddenly, after 3-4 years of working as intended, starts producing lethal levels of arsenic, or plants that have been genetically modified with anti-fungals, that create a dead zone after a couple of years because the anti-fungal kills fungi that actually promote growth.

I'm also not a fan of introducing whale DNA into hogs with the intention of creating hogs the size of hippos. And the head of Monsanto is on record as saying that his goal is to control the world's food supply. They're working on that by creating crops that create sterile seeds so that farmers cannot harvest and reuse the seed.

The scary thing is that someone from Monsanto has been at or near the top of the EPA or FDA for many years. How can you control them when they run the part of the government that is supposed to oversee them?

While there may be a lot to be gained by genetic modification, it needs to be tested and it should not just be a way to create crops that can be controlled by a company or animals so large that their bones cannot support their weight. This is a common problem with hogs, chickens, and turkeys right now.

I have made the choice to be more aware of what I eat and where it comes from, especially since I've been diagnosed with a kind of cancer that doesn't normally occur in a person of my age. So my choice is to eat more organic and/or foods that are certified GMO-free. Whether the benefits are real or imaginary I don't really, at this point, know. But I feel better about what I eat.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:52 AM

88. the problem is

That there is no way to recall gmo produce once it is adopted for regular cultivation. It is very difficult to stop contamination. It will be too late once we realize that there is a problem with gmo food. That is the reason for desperation, urgency and fear..

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:42 AM

28. There was a recent study

done by scientist paid by Monsanto that said what you believe. The problem was, they left in some real damning information. The bit of science that bothered me was that people who ate organic had a whole lot less pesticides in their blood system. They mentioned something like a 60% to 90% decrease. It may hardly affect your life span but it may affect your quality of life.

I think I would like as little pesticides in my blood system as I can get.

I run a small farm. I started out growing conventional pesticide ridden vegetables. I fed these vegetables to my family. But when I had to pass up harvesting at the perfect time because I had just sprayed pesticides all over my beautiful lose leaf lettuce, it dawned on me how dangerous pesticides are. If I have to wait 7 days before I can pick my lettuce, how do I know the corporate farm waits? How do I know that 7 days is enough? What if I have no rain for 7 days? What if it is very cloudy for 7 days? Will the pesticide be neutralized even with unusual weather conditions? I would lay in bed and worry about what these vegetables were doing to my family and my customers who bought them.

So I switched to organic methods just to give me some peace of mind. Yes, organics are much more expensive. But try Certified Naturally Grown (CNG) produce. It's a group of farmers who inspect each other. It started out in New York and many farmers have joined because the cost is so much less. No, you can't inspect the person who inspects you. The people who come out to inspect me, I don't know and have never met. It costs about $160 a year vs the $1,500 a year for organic. We must follow the same rules organic farmers follow but our certification cost are a lot less and we then can charge our customers less.

Here in rural TN we sell CNG tomatoes for $3.00 a lb. The price for a dozen free range brown eggs at the farmers market is less than in the grocery store. And just think of how you are lowering your blood pesticide levels.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:38 AM

36. Getting "peace of mind", however, is a lot different...

...from the "organic" choice being super healthy and the non-organic being a dreaded toxic carcinogen. I was specifically referring to the image in the OP.

The "wait seven days" instructions for the pesticides you used may have simply been out of an abundance of caution -- like the instructions not to use portable electronics on aircraft, even though there's never been a single incident clearly linked to someone playing their iPod or using their laptop on a plane. Your reaction is as if the existence of those instructions must mean that the food was incredibly dangerous right after spraying, and that the seven days was needed to reach barely tolerable levels of danger.

I'm fine with people choosing to be extra cautious about what they eat, I just want to point out that it is merely extra caution in the face of unknown but likely small risks. The self-congratulatory rhetoric about the food that most other people eat being "poison" and "crap" and "garbage" is overblown.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:56 AM

89. It's definitely NOT about an over abundance of caution.

Several Farmers have been fined and prevented from selling their produce in my area because they failed to follow the prescribed pesticide spraying instructions and several people got sick.

Here's hoping that the level of pesticides in your blood system is not hurting you.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:20 AM

71. It is difficult to study the effects of GMO

because the GMO companies have fought against labeling food. One of the benefits of labeling food is that such a study will reveal the health problems of consuming gmo food. Any the cancer is from the pesticides from non-organic food.

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #71)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:46 AM

84. I addressed those points...

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #84)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:20 PM

99. agree with Silent3

This is so much more complicated than organic or non organic. How to feed the world, how to deal with climate change and the ability to farm, and what kind of farming will work. It would probably not be best to go back to constant tilling to plant grains, as we have a climate problem and severe drought. Maybe it is fine for a few acres of tomatoes, but really impossible for grains. We probably need more grains to feed the vast population. We have a grain farm, and it is very hard for the public to realize how difficult it is to get a crop, add in the problems with the climate , the costs and difficulty become almost impossible. We can't go back to old ways of farming as it produced a fraction of the crops now produced. We have no need for pesticides in our climate, but suspect with climate change, insects will like it here too. I'm not sure that anyone loves the organic pesticides and/or the GMO incorporation of them either? This just seems like the least of our problems -- starving people and climate change maybe should be something to keep us awake at night. Last year was a dismal crop year because of heat and drought, sounds like we have more problems ahead this summer.

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Response to Avis (Reply #99)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:28 PM

102. Answer is not GMO

We can apply real science to do better organic cultivation to improve yields. I have seen reports that it is a myth that chemicals and gmo are the answers to feed the ever increasing population just like how cheap fossil fuel is not the answer to our energy needs.

http://agriculturesociety.com/politics-and-food/busting-myths-about-gmos-genetically-modified-foods/

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:02 PM

120. Best reason to eat organic - It tastes better.

You're supporting small local farmers that and keeping money in your community.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #120)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:40 PM

124. I wouldn't be so sure of real differences in taste in all cases, or their magnitude

Penn and Teller did a great experiment where they asked people to taste test the difference between organic bananas and non-organic.

People didn't just cite minor differences in taste, they were expansive in their florid language about how one tasted delicious, wholesome, "like a real banana", made their mouths light up with pleasure, etc., while the other tasted flat, flavorless, bland, artificial, "like chemicals", etc.

Of course it was all a trick. Penn and Teller were only using one kind of banana, even offering slices from the same banana as the supposedly different options.

None of this proves there's no difference in taste in all cases, especially when there's a whole lot more than can be different besides the organic part in how various foods are produced and the care taken in producing them.

What it does show, however, is that preconceptions are a HUGE part of the sense of taste. I saw a Nova Science Now special where this effect was shown in other ways, like people swearing that apple juice with some orange food coloring tasted like orange juice -- at least until the trick was revealed, then it tasted like apple juice again.

Unless a person is caught by a trick like this, many will assume that they'd never be fooled, that they can't and don't ever fool themselves, that their sense of taste is accurate, and dammit, if they taste a difference, there is a real difference!

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #124)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:58 PM

131. Banana's aren't tomatoes.

And apple juice isn't an apple.

Sourcing matters. Especially the next day.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #131)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:06 PM

132. The point is that what you think something is going to taste like...

...can greatly effect what is does taste like. That's not a phenomena limited only to specific foods.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #132)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:31 PM

133. I realize that. However,

Heirloom organic tomatoes have a completely different taste than supermarket, over hybridized, non-organic ones.

Pastured, free range chickens, not dosed with antibiotics have a different flavor profile than the Purdue chickens.

I've been eating organic for over twenty five years. There's a big difference in taste.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #133)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:21 AM

144. I never said there were never any differences

Only that some differences might be more imagined than real, and might be due to things that aren't really "organic". You certainly do not know for certain that you'd pass a blind taste test comparing many of these things, or that, say, an heirloom tomato raised exactly the same way as an organic heirloom tomato, but also having had pesticides applied to it, would taste different.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #131)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:55 AM

157. Supermarket tomatoes are harvested before they have fully vine ripened. In order to have a true

taste test one would need to have the exact same amount of vine ripening for a genetically modified tomato and a sustainable sourced tomato of the same variety. I can't detect a difference under same ripening, but as I said, I trust the natural tomato more.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:48 PM

148. It's a no brainer

 

if you let go of the purely consumer point of view. Organic farming is based on tending the natural fertility of land, corporate farming kills the natural fertility by fertilizers and poisons, depletes ground water, mines the top soil, etc.

Which is healthier and better for planet and future generations?

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Response to tama (Reply #148)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:00 AM

150. Quantum!

I'm going to will any food I eat to be healthier! Prove I can't!

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #150)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:27 AM

161. You are talking

 

to a figment of your imagination.

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Response to tama (Reply #161)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:51 AM

163. Who are you to say my imagined perceptions aren't just as real...

Last edited Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:11 AM - Edit history (1)

...as what the stuffy, controlling scientific establishment allows to be "real" or not?

And yes, I don't bother to take you seriously because you're just as slippery as that with your usual fuzzy-headed nonsense.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #163)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:49 PM

164. I'm just your brain fart saying

 

that your emotional response is like that of a defense mechanism of an irrational religious fundamentalism engaged in which hunt.

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Response to tama (Reply #164)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:20 PM

165. Yes, I guess I'm just not at the right spiritual level...

...to deal with the Wisdom of an Old Soul such as yourself.

Funny how a lot of other people have a very similar reaction to your evasiveness, but it must be them, couldn't possibly be you.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:46 AM

9. oh yeah, because people who eat organic NEVER get cancer

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:17 AM

14. It seems the people eating organic have cancer more than people who do not

That's my unscientific opinion.

Plus the organic industry has plenty of fraud.

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:20 AM

56. Even if the reverse were true, it wouldn't mean much

People who eat organic foods are most likely those who tend to be more health conscience about all sorts of things.

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:42 AM

64. That's because many of the 'organic' food companies

are subsidiaries of larger conventional companies that support Big Ag. They know what people REALLY want and wanted a slice of that profit pie.

Options include: grow your own, buy local from well known organic small farmers in your area, join a fresh produce co-op (the one I joined has close relationships with their farmers from all over N and S America), or sometimes your local small organic produce store (if you have one) is particular about the people they buy from.

It's not easy to do this stuff, but it's worth it.

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:17 PM

97. people who eat frozen dinners are more likely to

have blow up Santa Displays in the front yard..


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Response to snooper2 (Reply #97)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:40 PM

115. Nt

 

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #97)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:52 PM

128. STOP IT SNOOPER2

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #97)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 07:23 AM

141. most of my neighbors must eat a lot of frozen dinners then

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:58 AM

158. Your opinion. I don't know one way or another. nt

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:16 AM

68. that is not a valid argument

Global warming is not real. We got snow this year - I see your argument is similar to this.
What we are talking about it is the chances of getting cancer

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #68)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:30 AM

145. Except there is scientific evidence of global warming

Evidence that some "chemicals" (as if "chemicals" were all one thing) tested individually, often in enormous doses on rats and mice, or any other study you might bring up that makes you suspicious of non-organic food but that isn't specifically comparing organic to non-organic, is at most reason for caution, not at all reason for talking about non-organic food with great scathing certainty as if it's vile carcinogenic slop, not without the non-existent specific scientific evidence that eating an organic food diet significantly reduces your risk of cancer.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:57 AM

11. You know, Checking Out The Crowd At Whole Foods .....

I find myself feeling as if I don't belong there. I go there to get olive oil and fish oil .. and that's it. I simply can't afford their produce or anything else in there for that matter. So my opinion is that only yuppies (yes I am using that term, but true) can afford the organics and all the expensive items they sell. Granted it's a fun place to go but .. I pretty much just go to look .. not buy. I'm poor and organics are out of touch for me. What gives you healthy longevity is the absents of stress. Wouldn't you agree? That's a tough one for poor people as well.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:48 AM

29. Shop at your local farmer's market.

Prices are a whole lot less at farmer's market than at Whole Foods. There are many farmers who practice organic methods who don't charge an arm and a leg. Many cities are now offering winter markets because most small farmers have greenhouses and can grow winter hardy vegetables year round. There are websites that sell locally grown and organic foods on-line. You put in your order and pick it up at a local area.

Good, pesticide and GMO free food can be purchased at reasonable prices from local farmers.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:40 AM

82. A greenhouse is a good investment at those prices.

We got about 50# of tomatoes and another few pounds of peppers from our greenhouse. At the beginning of October, we picked the remaining green tomatoes and packed them in boxes under our bed, where they ripened nicely. My wife canned the last of them into a batch of spaghetti sauce last weekend.

Commercial tomatoes are force-ripened using ethylene.

I don't belong at whole foods either. Tiny jars of expensive fussy boutique food. Besides, the only evidence of the item's superiority is the label and the price. You still don't know what it is, how it was processed or where it came from.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:43 AM

83. Plenty of non Yuppies shop there, and Trader Joe's

And farmers' markets. In addition, the latter two are inexpensive, and there is plenty at Whole Foods that is inexpensive, sometimes even the produce, depending on sale items.

I find the labeling of healthy and/or organic eating as "Yuppie" problematic for several reasons.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:50 AM

86. I just call it Whole Paycheck

I remember when little community co-ops delivered both the best foods available AND the best prices. Now, corporations have supplanted them with private profits supplanting community cooperation.

Ultimately, consumer demand drives this equation, so education is how you improve both health and economic power.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:47 PM

107. Checking out the crowd at Whole Foods

which is where I shop - in general, the people look healthier and slimmer. I'm not a yuppie and many foods like carrots, celery and lettuce are very cheap at Whole Foods. Here in NM, our Whole Food stores usually carry local produce so you can get cheaper apples and fruits grown locally in the summer. I always keep a cherry tomato plant or two in my south windows during the winter. Even the local Walmart (which I try to avoid as much as possible) carries pesticide free tomatoes & cucumbers and organic celery.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #107)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 07:33 PM

147. slimmer, healthier, wealthier. Fancy cars in the parking lot, many coming from the nearby yoga shop

I wish the poor had access to the same quality of food.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #107)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:07 AM

159. People that shop at Whole Foods and Trader Joe are people that are more into health and fitness,

so they are going to be thinner than a person that you find at regular grocers.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:55 PM

149. No worries :)

 

Many health-oriented people do worry, obsess and stress out far too much about what they eat for their own health. Best to gratefully accept and eat what you are given.

"Organic" is not so much consumer oriented question, but much more about environment and sustainability and future generations.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:11 AM

13. If you live in the Northern Hemisphere, tomatoes are expensive because it's NOVEMBER.

Presumably they were either grown in a hothouse or flown in from someplace nearer the equator where it's warm all year and the bananas likely had even more miles on them. Flying in out of season produce from god knows where is crazy expensive.

Squashes, root vegetables and other in season produce would likely have set you back a good deal less, and would be much more likely to be local-ish.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:19 AM

15. Not too mention all the pollution put into the air to fly 1000s of miles

Eat fresh veggies, breathe in bad air. Ironic?

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:44 AM

37. Thanks. Y'all beat me to it.

Eating in season, and therefore eating local, is more important that eating organic in the grand scheme things, IMHO. If you can get it local AND organic, GREAT!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:44 AM

16. Nice excuse for pricing food too high...

... for actual working people.

Funny, I was talking about this with a farmer friend of mine (his family runs a big dairy).

His family used to produce milk and to a local cheese factory which sold cheese in this area.

Both his farm and the cheese factory employed local people, but the pay was not high... it was only what you would pay working folks who work in those operations.

Well, some big size cheese operation in an entirely different part of the country began selling cheese in his area.
The cheese was a lot cheaper.
The big operation used its size and location to source milk from many sources around it in a bulk fashion that made all of its milk purchases mad cheap. Then on top of that, because their materials cost and production costs were lower per unit (due to their scale), they could afford to transport their cheese across the country to my friends town.

Working families can't afford to make the choice of paying 50% more for the local cheese than the stuff from the big operation. The lower price lets them afford other things their kids need.

The result:

* The local cheese factory shut down, meaning local cheese factory jobs lost.
* Without the cheese factory, my friend lost a big customer... had to lay off staff and switch to automation to keep things profitable.
* Everybody had cheaper cheese... both the people who still had jobs and the folks who didn't.

My friend says the situation sucks all over... but there is no easy solution.

It's really hard to convince regular working people and the poor to pay more when they have so many priorities to manage... when every penny counts they have to make every penny count.

We can't ask them to pay more like that.
My friend is a farmer who does environmental stuff on the mad scale (we looked at the two farms that are in the family via Google Earth... yeah... that mad scale)... and they couldn't win against a big corp.

And frankly, the only folks I see affording to pay 50%, double, or triple for free-range fair-trade whatever are people who have enough extra money to afford to drink $5 lattes with their $5 slice of cake any day of the week and not have to work weekends.

You know: people who already have money.

And frankly, I can't afford it either.

When the eco-farmers get together and make their stuff affordable for me, I'll be there.

But, I'm not holding my breath.

I already have a farmer friend who laments this same thing... and he can't see how he could ask the people around him to pay more.

Note on my friends farm: They totally an entire circle of life operations. They grown the feed for the cows, chickens and pigs. Has a really incredible map of how he takes the inputs of some systems and feed them into others and how he times extraction of resources to feed other systems. He totally runs no inputs from the outside world. So, this is not some lightweight we're talking about with just 100 or 200 head of cattle here.

So, I'm sticking to my imported beef.
In my case, here in Japan, I was able to buy American beef just this weekend for less than half the price of Japanese beef. It was imported into Japan... from America... by Walmart.

(Yes... I found the irony a mind blower, too).

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Response to 6502 (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:52 AM

23. It has nothing to do with..

.... being "priced too high" it has to do with the "cost to produce". It costs a lot more to grow things organically. You think farms can operate at a loss?

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Response to 6502 (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:53 AM

24. It has nothing to do with..

... "priced too high" it has to do with "cost to produce". Organic foods cost more to produce, a lot more. And no farm can operate at a loss for long.

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Response to sendero (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 04:19 AM

137. ... it has everything to do with it...

... it's the foundation of my point (and the farmer's point).

Just because you want to ignore economic reality in support of overpriced food that working people can't afford is no excuse to peddle the fantasy to others.

Who do you think I'm going to believe?

You?
No. No way - read above paragraphs for why.

The farmer who in the pic in the OP?
No. He profits from working folks paying more than can afford.

My farmer friend who spent Thanksgivings weekend lamenting over this same problem as it pertains to working people?

Yes!

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Response to 6502 (Reply #137)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 06:15 PM

146. Working people cannot afford a Lexus either..

.... what is your point?

If your point is that everyone SHOULD be able to afford healthy food, who would argue. Working people should be able to afford a lot of things they no longer can. There are many many reasons for that.

If your point is that organic produce is just overpriced, well you are just ignorant. It is priced as it is because it costs way more to produce, simple as that.

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Response to 6502 (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:01 AM

31. Yes, it's tough to compete with the corporations.

What we have done is to specialize in certain produce. We just could not sell our produce at such cheap prices as Wal-Mart or most corporations. So, we have gone to certain foods that are more rare in grocery stores like pasture raised lamb, gourmet mushrooms (no, NOT Portabellas) and free range eggs. Our egg prices are comparable with grocery store prices and though our lamb and mushrooms are a bit pricey, you don't need as much to fill you up because they are so protein rich as compared to grocery store items. One burger made from our ground lamb will fill any person up. It is so rich and meaty as compared to floppy mushy burgers from fast food restaurants. And our oyster mushrooms offer the added benefit of fighting cholesterol.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 05:43 AM

139. ... not an excuse for pretending it is what it ain't.

It's not Progressive.
It's not Liberal.
And it's damn skippity dippity not for the working class or the poor.

Start putting together infrastructure that allows for low cost nutritious food to reach working class people in the urban and suburban and rural parts of America, then you can call yourselves Progressives and Liberals.

The working class and poor don't need free range chickens and free range eggs and organic vegetables..

They need food that is nutritious and low cost.

If you have to use pesticides to get there -- use them.
If free-range makes the $0.99 bag of chicken cost $3 a drumstick -- find a better way to get down to $0.99 or less (it's very likely that that means that your free range ideal is unworkable).


If you can't do any of those things, then you'all just profiteering.

If you're going to keep selling $3 chicken legs to yuppies and rich folks, stop pretending to us that you are somehow one of us.


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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:18 AM

19. I will never buy organic, now I may plant my own,

based on what I've read China grows and sells organic produce and the use of human sh** is used in their organic farms and is approved. Anyone can grow tomatoes you can grow them in a bucket, with dirt or without dirt, I grow them in a, hydrophonic garden, with no dirt only water and fertilizer, I give away 400+ tomatoes and cucumbers each year that I plant them. I am getting old and this type of gardening is easy, no dirt, no weeds, very little bending, I use 100 feet of 4 inch PVC pipe a 55 gal tank and a small pump, its about 3 feet off the ground.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:36 AM

20. i don't think eating organic means you'll avoid cancer. people got cancer

 

regularly long before industrial chemicals & pesticides were in the mix.

and that joel guy doesn't look too healthy to me. bad skin tone.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:12 AM

67. But the chances are less

Your argument is similar to
'there is no climate change. We got snow this year too'

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #67)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:17 PM

96. Where is your link to that claim?

A scientific study that is not a blog.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #96)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:51 PM

105. first link from google

http://www.toxicsinfo.org/Lawn/Pesticides%20&%20Cancer.htm
http://www.envirohealthpolicy.net/kidstest/Cancer%20Pages/DoPesticidesCauseCancerinChildren.htm
I am not going to download the actual study and give it to you. I don't have time. I can see that there are reports that the blogs have listed and you can follow the links..

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #105)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:16 PM

112. Try again.

These studies have absolutely nothing to do with organic vs. non-organic foods and cancer. Almost all of them involve the people who as part of their job use pesticides. Before you make claims you should ave actual studies that back up the particular claim, -- not your interpretation and speculation.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #112)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:28 PM

113. you can only prove a chemical causes cancer

It is not easy to prove a food that is sprayed with chemicals lead to cancer because for that study the person has to be isolated from all chemical exposures and it is very difficult. Anyway here is another link.


"The study also suggested consuming chemical pesticides might contribute to testicular, brain, prostate, breast, and stomach cancer."

Read more: Harmful Farm Chemicals | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6816618_harmful-farm-chemicals.html#ixzz2DGRTtGRI

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #113)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:56 PM

117. and

"Many soft fruit skins are consumed as recommended for the fiber content. We should be aware of the risks to our health, & the links between cancer and food consumption. Many toxins have an effect due to build up in the body & this is not fully researched. "
"Dr Ian Brown, chairman of the PRC said that in total 25 samples were found to contain toxic traces above legal levels"

http://www.cancer-gone.com/Cancerandfood.html

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #67)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:18 AM

160. Welcome to DU. I agree with the previous person, and that person is not equating global

warming with whether genetically modified food is more unhealthy that non modified food. To say that the poster made that claim or any claim similar is a case of drawing a false equivalence.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 07:48 AM

142. I think the instances of cancer has increased over that period

Though I attribute that mostly to the advances in medicine. They generally find and treat cancer now before someone drops dead from it. Lot of people were long gone from some other ailment or accident before they died in their 80's from cancer like Larry Hagman did.

Don

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:56 AM

25. fuck Joel Salatin. What an elitist asshole.

seriously, that is an obnoxious, dishonest bit of bullshit.

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Response to cali (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:32 AM

44. Agreed.

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Response to cali (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:27 AM

59. Why is he an elitist asshole?????

Other than your just saying so

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #59)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:13 PM

95. Silly BronxBoy. Cali said so. That is sufficient.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #95)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:20 PM

98. Yeah I know.....

She lives in one of the most forward looking organic communities in the world.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 06:11 AM

26. It's November.

Tomatoes are way out of season.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:36 AM

35. Bah! Don't confuse facts with fiction... n/t

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:11 AM

32. Shop at your local farmer's market either in person or on-line.

You would be surprised at how cheap good food really is.

Free Range Eggs are selling here for LESS than in the grocery store.

There are many cities doing winter markets now or check out locallygrown.net. You put in an order and pick it up at a local area.

Many farmers practice organic methods but can't afford the certification - $1,500 a year. Just check them out carefully.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:34 AM

34. WOW...

The general lack of knowledge about "organic" farmers and plain outright ignorance on this thread is just breathtaking. I am a small farmer who practices organic and sustainable methods and I am going to post a separate OP about my feelings about the ongoing mis-perceptions that we small farmers face. I find it interesting that no one complaining about the statement in the OP seems to be a farmer.

Everyone always complains about why "organic" food is so high but how come no one rarely questions why corporate produced food is so cheap.

I'll post a link to my OP when I'm done.

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:24 AM

43. I hope you do BronxBoy

My daughter works on organic farms and has for 2 years. She also coordinates and works the "Farmers Markets" for a few farms in the area.

Her experiences, and what she tells me, is vastly different from what I'm reading in these posts. I also have experience along the same line as she does. I was raised on a farm in Missouri, and we produced 80% of our own food for a family of 7 and had a lot surplus.

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:11 AM

51. thank you....please link your OP when you are done, thanks

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #51)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:33 AM

61. Done....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021879438

I hope the people dumping on organic will take the time to engage in a discussion with farmers rather than making blanket accusations

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #61)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:42 PM

106. great OP... I learned a lot..... I hope everybody commenting here reads it.. thanks!

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:33 AM

76. sorry, dear, but I know a great deal about organic farming. I live in

a community that's known throughout the country as a major innovator in local and organic farming and food production.

I wholeheartedly support my local organic farmers and food producers.

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Response to cali (Reply #76)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:09 PM

94. So What....

You posted an assertion that I took exception with.

Today's an inside day for me. Among other things, I am going to be reading grant applications from organizations that are seeking to to increase the sustainability of local food systems throughout the country.

So excuse me dear if I find your post to be more than a little condescending

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:22 PM

121. +1

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:46 AM

38. There are no GM kale, bananas, bread, or tomatoes on the market

(Assuming wheat bread).

There's definitely an over-estimation by the general public about how many foods are GMO. A decent rule of thumb is that if it doesn't have corn, soy, vegetable oil, or sugar in it, it's not gmo. (And vegetable oil and sugar are highly processed so it's arguable that GM is even relevant in those cases.)

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Response to mathematic (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:07 AM

49. I thought tomatoes were genetically modified?

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #49)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:35 AM

78. While there have been reports of some GMO tomatoes....

most of the tomatoes you see in the grocery store are commercially grown hybrids that have been cross-bred to develop certain traits such as storage life and the ability to be transported with minimal damage. This is why a lot of store brought tomatoes taste like shit. Their taste is a factor but not the optimal factor in the breeding process.

But they are not GMOs which are created through the manipulation of the plants DNA through means other than breeding. Hybrid seed is perfectly acceptable in both conventional and organic production. We grow several hybrids and are very happy with them. The reason why a lot of people think organically produced veggies taste better is because generally the seed used is bred with taste as being a major factor in addition to other qualities. Some hybrids rate as high on the taste scale as some heirloom varieties.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:00 AM

40. If you can fit a pot in your yard,

or on a balcony you can grow organic kale or mustard pretty easily and cheaply. They're actually harder to kill than they are to grow. A 16"X16" pot will grow more mustard (Especially Florida Broadleaf) than a single person can eat.

I'm not griping at you for not growing your own, by the way. Just saying those are easy and fun if you want to try them.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #40)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:27 AM

72. Not for people who live in areas where it is cold.

Much shorter growing season.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:08 AM

41. Around here, organic and regular are almost the same price

But I picked my first "winter" tomato of the season yesterday. But this is s. Texas where it's sunny and warm.

I normally wouldn't eat tomatoes in the winter since I never tried growing them myself in the winter.

And I don't think a store bought organic tomato would taste any better than a store bought non organic tomato. I like home grown.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:43 AM

45. Question.

How do you know ANY of what you bought is "organic/non-GMO"???

I think "organic" is one of the biggest scams going IMHO.

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #45)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:08 AM

50. it's labeled.. all I can go off for now

The kale and banana are obvious

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #45)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:16 AM

54. Not really

Organic standards prohibit the use of GMO seeds

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #54)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:29 AM

73. I understand but...

You're trusting the seller has met standards or not used GMO seeds.

How do you know that?? Anyone can say anything on a sign.

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #73)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:27 PM

101. In order to achieve USDA or CNG certification....

You have to undergo a third party audit. The process differs for each type but it has to happen. Both standards look back 3 operating years and the farmer needs to keep detailed records on various things such as seed purchases, buffer zones and other things.

Actually, this is the one area where you can trust that what you buy in the stores has at least gone through the process than what you might purchase at a farmers market. No major chain is going to label your stuff as organic if you can't provide your 3rd party audit documentation. Depending on your farmers market, you can slap a sign on it that says organic and there may or may not be some oversight.

But at the farmers market, you can get to know your farmer and question them about their growing practices and even ask to visit. 90% of the time, you can't do that with stuff at the store

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #45)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:53 AM

65. well, where I live

there are strict standards for what can be labelled organic or not. I'm not sure if the US has a federal law about it, but Canada does. Of course, Big Ag is trying to get around those labelling laws too.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #65)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:20 AM

70. Both USDA and CNG standards...

prohibit the use of GMO seed in organic crop production. That's a fact. Period.

One of the chief complaints about the use of GMO seed in agriculture is that organic farmers have little or no protection against cross pollination if neighboring farms decide to plant such seed.

So aside from Monsanto's horrible business practices, the organic farmer also has to answer to third party auditors that need to certify that the farm is indeed organic

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #70)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:33 AM

75. That is how it is here too. good.

I get your concern about the cross pollination. There was a large court case here about it. Monsanto won the case, but not the court of public opinion.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:18 AM

55. For Those Who Are Interested......

Here's one farmers perspective

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021879438

Thanks

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:49 PM

130. +1

Great OP over there.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:22 AM

57. Buying organic produce is luxury shopping.

It's simply not affordable for most people. As your example shows, buying tomatoes at that price is simply not happening for the vast majority of families. Instead, they're often buying the canned diced tomatoes. Much cheaper. Yes, your expensive tomatoes no doubt tasted better on your sandwich. The 12-grain bread, and the other high quality ingredients on that sandwich probably helped, too.

Bottom line, though, is that when mom is making sandwiches for a family of four, those tomatoes and other very tasty ingredients probably aren't in her fridge. She simply can't afford them.

It's nice to say that people should only eat "healthy" organic food. It's nice that you can afford to buy it. However, it and the other high quality ingredients you're using are luxury goods.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #57)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:38 AM

62. Too Many Times

Buying any fresh produce is luxury shopping, organic or otherwise. And therein lies the problem. Organic clouds the issue.

I often caution folks looking to start a farmers market, especially in underserved communities,to not become organic nazis. The goal is to get affordable fresh food into the community no matter how it is produced.

That can of diced tomatoes is probably cheaper than even conventionally fresh tomato in the same store. If it can even be had at all.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #57)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:35 AM

77. if we invest in R&D for organic farming

then we can reduce the cost of organic food. Just like how solar energy is/was costly compared to fossil fuel.

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Response to wisechoice (Reply #77)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:59 AM

90. That investment only makes economic sense...

...if all aspect of "organic" and non-GMO actually do produce better health. I think there are many things wrong with current industrialized agribusiness, and R&D might find solutions, but if that R&D is truly unbiased, looking at all aspects of food production from cost to yields to health and nutrition, I doubt the optimal result would be a puritanical no-GMO ever, no-chemicals-ever-allowed approach.

R&D meant to lead to a pre-determined outcome that "organic" non-GMO must be best makes no sense.

What if studies somehow beyond reproach (which never happens -- most people only accept "facts" which correspond with their pre-existing world view) showed that one particular pesticide was no risk at all to human health, perhaps even strangely showed health benefits?

Would it still be worthwhile to keep doing R&D to get rid of that one pesticide, just for the "purity" of the organic concept? Or at a certain point is indulging in what might simply be unfounded fears, or a kind of elitism or puritanism, a luxury that should bear a higher price tag?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #57)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:50 AM

85. The OP is buying prioduce not in season

What is in season are root vegs, some kale, etc.

I do not make much money, and I eat very healthy, and the huge bulk of what I eat is organic. People in poverty can't buy basically ANY produce, quite poor people can buy some, people like me can buy lots if we eat in-season and local, with some frozen stuff. It is quite doable.

Organic does not equal elitist, nor does eating local.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #85)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:05 PM

91. Yes.

And in my experience, money is only one of the problems with getting fresh food to folks, affordable or not.

One thing that we have seen in the local food movement is that even if you get the cost of production down to where the food is affordable, other problems exist. In a lot of communities people don't have the means to cook or have very limited means. (Grills etc). I know that seems unfathomable in our country but it's a fact of life for many citizens.

Our farmers market coordinates closely with food ministries and pantries during our seasons. On several occasions, the farmers offered up unsold veggies at the end of the day and the pantry refused them. The reason had nothing to do with potential liability and everything to do with the fact that many of the clients lived in SROs or motel rooms and did not have the proper refrigeration or cooking facilities to use these items.

And in cases where they did, guess what? A large portion of the clientele had absolutely no idea how to prepare fresh veggies from scratch. These is why many of the EBT efforts at farmers markets were often coupled with cooking and preparation demos.

So the problems go way beyond how the food is produced. But solutions are increasingly being fashioned by organic and local food proponents

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:40 AM

63. Just Curious...

Where did you buy these? That's even high for organic tomatoes in this area

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Response to BronxBoy (Reply #63)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:51 AM

87. I was thinking that, too

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:37 AM

79. My wife had a question too...

Are they "Heirloom" tomato's?

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:09 PM

93. I am posting at the top of this for a reason

i see several responses regarding pesticides and the consumers ability to wash off the residue:
from an organic farmer, I will tell you this:

there are many seeds now used in commercial agriculture
that have the pesticide IN the seed....
so beware: you can NOT wash the pesticides off
they are IN the produce, not merely ON them

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Response to drthais (Reply #93)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:31 PM

103. And in those cases....

they cannot be labelled as organic. They are GMOs.

Now having said that, there have been some instances where so-called organic producers have been caught growing stuff that have not been produced according to standards. But i haven't seen any reports of anyone using GMO. Most had to do with using unapproved pesticides or fertilizers.

Like any system, this can be abused and consumers should be aware of that

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:27 PM

100. k and r

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:57 PM

108. Nice if you can afford the extra money for healthier food.

Many poor people can't and must shop for the cheapest available especially if they are on food stamps. I personally try to grow a few things in containers like lettuce and greens for salads. Then I know how they were grown, but a lot of people don't have the space for that luxury either. We need to get our legislators to start working on making our food safer and more nutritious. It's better for everyone in the long run and we will pay for those who die from cancer even if we can eat more healthy ourselves.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #108)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:15 PM

111. You're Spot On......

And that's why folks in the local food movement have been addressing this issue. It goes way beyond organic vs. conventional crop production.

Thr growth of farmers markets in urban and underserved areas is a direct response to this. And what a lot us found was that even if you found a way to get some local produce into the community, many local residents had no way to pay for it. This is how the major farmers markets EBT programs started.

And even then there were problems as once residents had access to food, they still couldn't make that food dollar stretch as much as they needed it to. Hence the birth of Wholesome Wave and similar programs which doubled their purchasing power.

Drop in the bucket but there is work being done in this area and the bulk of it is being done by people in the organic and sustainable food movements

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:57 PM

109. Just got back from the store and bought organic tomatoes - 2.98 a lb. REg were 1.98

Both product of Mexico.

The taste test is next - lol.

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Response to sammytko (Reply #109)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:00 PM

110. and here is an article about Mexican tomatoes - check out the slide show

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Response to sammytko (Reply #110)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:31 PM

134. Non-organic tomatoes from Mexico are often 4lbs/$1 by me

Of course, I live pretty much right next to Mexico.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:34 PM

114. Ok read your post again - your tomatoes were 4.60 a lb. I didn't pay attention to the fact that you

bought 1.5 lbs.

4.60 doesn't sound as bad.

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Response to sammytko (Reply #114)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:00 PM

119. regular tomatoes were half that price

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #119)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:43 PM

125. Just ate one of my organic tomatoes - blech - same taste as regular store bought - i like homegrown!

I have about ten plants growing. Picked one yesterday. Letting it turn red on the counter.

Don't know if I will have a good crop. This is my first winter crop.

I did can sauce and whole tomatoes this summer. Also made ketchup.

The sauce still has that good homegrown taste. Just made some spanish rice using the sauce. mmmm

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Response to sammytko (Reply #125)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:46 PM

129. I have tried to grow winter maters....

and my results so far have been disappointing. The fruit from the later crop tend to be more mealy than my summer ones.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:55 PM

116. It's a great way to get white people to pay double for produce.

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Response to Throd (Reply #116)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 06:54 AM

140. white people

wtf

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:51 PM

127. Most Varieties of Tomatoes Won't Grow Here, Even in the Summer

The only ones that grow consistently are Japanese Black Truffle tomatoes.
They are also the most delicious tomatoes I have ever tasted.

We grow what we can, buy the rest from farmers market when we can,
and mostly settle for whatever organic produce we can get in the store in the winter.

We did a CSA for a while, but dropped it because too much of the huge box of produce they delivered was going to waste,
especially as we continued to expand our vegetable garden, and the CSA was often delivering more of the same produce
we were growing. The CSAs don't function in the winter either.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:36 PM

135. sometime wonder if organic foods is the liberal version of fox news

lots and lots of blind faith here

just sayin

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:37 PM

136. Fuck Ron Paul!

That is all.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:07 AM

151. I know it sounds expensive to you, trailmonkee, 'cause it's all

relative but your prices seem not that bad to me..because, organic food is twice as much here on Kaua'i.

I bet your sandwich was delicious!



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