HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » How did American companie...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:06 PM

How did American companies get tax breaks for moving jobs overseas?

Wasn't that a royal screwing of the American people?

If we traced our present economic problems back to its roots, we will probably find that they began with the free trade treaties. We were led to believe that getting everything produced overseas would somehow help the workers of this country? Were we morons or what??

The most obvious consequence of these trade treaties was that it drove the price of labor down in this nation. It drove the profits up of those that chose to make their products in China and elsewhere. And the biggest problem we face at this time is not necessarily the debt we owe these nations because we do not have the tax base to pay for our programs anymore, but rather, the impact it has had on jobs and wages. Something has to change.

We have become a nation for the few, rather than the many. We all must now sacrifice for the good of the top 1%, the so-called "job creators". They are not job creators but capitalist profiteers. More than 60% of all jobs created in this country are by smaller businesses. The top 1-2% of income earners do not create jobs. Over 96% of them only create wealth for themselves. Something is wrong with this picture??

Under the guise of saving the SS system, FICA taxes were raised on workers wages during the "big fix" of Social Security by Ronald Reagan. The wealthy were content to let the workers pay for all the programs we needed, including a defense department with a voracious appetite. But, when companies were moving overseas and we were losing jobs here, the SS fund started to shrink. In kind, the deficits went up proportionally to the number of unemployed.

We have now come to a meeting of the minds. In less than a dozen years, we went from a balanced budget to over-whelming debt. There are so many loopholes nobody can count them. We have a useless, and mostly destructive Congress to block anything that might be proposed. We have really screwed the pooch with this Congress.

So the decision is ours. Do we want a country for the few or do we want a country for the many? The time is now to make that decision. We hope the Democratic Party will be up to the task? But many of us have our doubts. Nobody seems ready to tackle these problems?

I hate to sound too negative but that is the way I see it...

43 replies, 4196 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 43 replies Author Time Post
Reply How did American companies get tax breaks for moving jobs overseas? (Original post)
kentuck Nov 2012 OP
RobertEarl Nov 2012 #1
loudsue Nov 2012 #24
Samantha Nov 2012 #39
naaman fletcher Nov 2012 #40
True Earthling Nov 2012 #2
kentuck Nov 2012 #3
pampango Nov 2012 #5
femrap Nov 2012 #7
pampango Nov 2012 #25
4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #13
pampango Nov 2012 #26
ProfessionalLeftist Nov 2012 #19
pampango Nov 2012 #29
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #35
pampango Nov 2012 #41
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #42
AdHocSolver Nov 2012 #9
JoeyT Nov 2012 #10
LeftInTX Nov 2012 #18
annabanana Nov 2012 #34
OneGrassRoot Nov 2012 #4
Ironblood Nov 2012 #6
femrap Nov 2012 #8
pampango Nov 2012 #31
mckara Nov 2012 #11
gollygee Nov 2012 #12
La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2012 #14
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #30
Dan Nov 2012 #15
TheKentuckian Nov 2012 #16
obxhead Nov 2012 #17
underoath Nov 2012 #20
obxhead Nov 2012 #23
underoath Nov 2012 #27
obxhead Nov 2012 #32
Selatius Nov 2012 #43
FarCenter Nov 2012 #21
LeftInTX Nov 2012 #22
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #28
obxhead Nov 2012 #33
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #36
obxhead Nov 2012 #37
Initech Nov 2012 #38

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:14 PM

1. Senator Wellstone, Paul. RIP

He was proposing a federal law that would forbid the feds from doing business with any company that shipped jobs overseas, etc.

You have a reason to be negative, but it shouldn't be because the Dems didn't try.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RobertEarl (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:07 PM

24. Well, Bill Clinton pushed NAFTA, and signed it gladly.

He forgot to put the lock-down on Newt Gingrich's congress about protecting American workers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to loudsue (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:37 PM

39. He was opposed to it originally, but when he realized it was going to pass anyway

because his veto could be over-ridden, he decided to take credit for it, endorse it and sign it. It was simply politics, the Bubba way. And it infuriated the Republicans when he did it.

Sam

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Samantha (Reply #39)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:19 AM

40. He was for it even during the presidential campaign

 

Although with caveats

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:20 PM

2. Not saying this is your position but I always wondered if those against free trade

are also for immigration - be it legal or illegal. I don't see how anyone can be against free trade and for immigration.

I don't blame free trade treaties for our current problems.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to True Earthling (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:22 PM

3. I don't see that connection in the same way?

Can you explain?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to True Earthling (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:28 PM

5. Europe has free trade and open immigration and is much more progressive than the US with

a much more equitable distribution of income than we have and much stronger unions and safety net.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:04 PM

7. Do countries such

 

as Germany and France off-shore manufacturing to China with NO repercussions?

I don't think I've seen a Bosch item with the label, 'Made in China' on it.

After WW2, I believe Germany made Constitutional Policies for strong unions....since Hitler had gotten rid of them very earlier in his takeover.

Remember Perot who ran for President in 1992? He talked of Free Trade Treaties and 'that giant sucking sound' as to where American jobs were headed.

I loved his charts. He was quite the character....and very correct about 'that giant sucking sound.'

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to femrap (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:30 PM

25. Germany and France do not give tax breaks to companies that off-shore manufacturing, but

they have the same WTO-tariffs with 'non-free trade' countries like China that the US has.

You are right that Germany has constitutionally protected strong unions which has resulted in manufacturing wages that are 50% higher than in the US. Nonetheless, their manufacturing industry is very healthy and export oriented. They have adapted very well to being a high-wage, exporting economy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:23 PM

13. Europe has freer trade and immigration within the EU

 

not so much with the outside world.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:37 PM

26. European countries have more 'free trade' than the US, including with Mexico, Columbia, Egypt, Peru,

South Africa, South Korea, Turkey and many others. With the rest of the "non-free trade' world, they abide by the same WTO tariffs agreements that the US abides by.

Many European countries (in particular most western European countries) have higher levels of immigration and foreign-born residents than the US has.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:38 PM

19. I think 'stronger unions' are the key

at least in Germany and no doubt elsewhere - or at least a major part of it. And I think that's why the corprats will do ANYTHING to get rid of all unions in the U.S.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:40 PM

29. Agreed. Germany is proof that strong unions and high wages are not incompatible with a strong

manufacturing industry.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:08 PM

35. As someone that wants to emigrate, let me assure you that Europe does not have anything like

 

open immigration. They also have the most bizarre idea that government should protect its citizens and sovereignty.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #35)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 01:30 PM

41. Each European country has open immigration with 26 other countries.

That is considerably more open immigration than we have.

They do protect their citizens with progressive taxes, strong unions and an effective safety net, not by isolating themselves. They understand they are part of a larger world that they must coexist with.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:11 AM

42. And we're all free to move to 49 other states, hardly the description of open immigration.

 

as commonly understood. Sometimes I believe you guys are just screwing around for the sake of shit stirring, other times I wonder if you really think we are that dumb, and sometimes I'm afraid that you really are that deluded.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to True Earthling (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:11 PM

9. There is NO "free trade". These trade agreements are designed to promote corporate profits.

Just because they call it "free" trade doesn't mean that it is good for the economy.

In fact, these trade agreements are designed to protect the big corporations and eliminate competition.

Just call them what they really are: They are Corporate Protectionist Trade Agreements.

Illegal immigrants are hired by employers because the employers can cheat them and misuse them without the illegal immigrant being able to ask for help without risk of being deported. Properly designed immigration reform, and rules to take the profit out of hiring illegal immigrants, would go a long way toward solving this problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to True Earthling (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:17 PM

10. It's easy to be against free trade and for immigration.

Immigrants are working and spending the money they make here, which keeps it circulating through the economy.

Free trade lets a corporation cut out all those people that would benefit from the wages being spent by paying virtually nothing in another country and pulling the profit straight to the top.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoeyT (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:27 PM

18. I think many of the Free Traders, the top 1%, aren't anti-immigration.

I think the GOP is/was pandering to social conservatives. A large base of voters.

Now that they lost, they are quickly compromising on immigration.

Businesses know that legal immigrants are more willing to work at minimum wage jobs than people who have been here their entire lives.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to True Earthling (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:03 PM

34. "free trade" is SUCH a misnomer. It is actually only "free capital".

Open immigration is a concomitant free flow of labor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:25 PM

4. Concise, accurate summary, as I see it. (Edit: image added)

I agree: We need to re-evaluate our priorities and act on them.

"So the decision is ours. Do we want a country for the few or do we want a country for the many? The time is now to make that decision."

Indeed.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:28 PM

6. Ask Clinton

 

The jobs went overseas with tax breaks and with low/no tariffs on the return goods in part because of NAFTA Gatt and the WTO. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA and GATT into being. Ask him about that. The Repugs are straight up about supporting the 1%, but the Dims do it, too. They are just sneakier about it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ironblood (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:07 PM

8. Bill

 

Clinton also removed Glass-Steagal so Wall Street could do whatever it wanted. I remember being so upset over that.

I don't know if the Dems are sneakier. I think it's more of the Dem people not paying attention when the prez is a Dem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ironblood (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:48 PM

31. GATT has been around since 1948. It was negotiated by FDR and signed under Truman. The WTO replaced

GATT in 1994.

The idea for multilateral institutions to control international trade was part of FDR's vision for the post-WWII world. Until the 1980's republicans were the high-tariff party and Democrats (from Woodrow Wilson to FDR to Clinton) were low tariff proponents.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:19 PM

11. Actually, It was a Bit Different than Your Explanation

Hudson, M. Super Imperialism. The Origin and Fundamentals of U.S. World Dominance

Rickards, J. Currency Wars: The Making of the Next Global Crisis

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:20 PM

12. Blame this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman

And then watch the movie and/or read the book mentioned in my siggie.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:26 PM

14. they don't get a tax break for moving jobs overseas per se

they get the break for business expenses, which can include the cost of moving jobs overseas & defer payments on income made overseas till it gets repatriated.

if you don't believe me check factcheck.org for more details


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:44 PM

30. They don't have to pay US taxes on overseas profits unless they move the money

 

back to the US. I call that a tax break.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:35 PM

15. Well, Ross Perot

http://www.ontheissues.org/Ross_Perot.htm#Free_Trade

indicated that there would be a huge sucking sounds of loss jobs...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:56 PM

16. Unwillingness to tackle the problems would be an upgrade in circumstances

There is precious little will to even stop exacerbating the problems. The primary debate is the correct path to make them worse and the demographic make up of the powerful and wealthy.

Too negative is not an issue for you at all here. Diplomatic is more like it, to my mind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:02 PM

17. It's not even small businesses that "create" jobs.

I'm tired of the myth that any business CREATES jobs.

Demand from consumers creates jobs. People start businesses large and small to meet a demand of some type. Whether that demand is a service, a tiny rarely used widget, or basic commodity that is used by everyone, only demand of it will create a job and supply of some sort.

I will completely agree that the various trade agreements that have outsourced so many jobs is the root problem. Until that problem is addressed, no amount of demand or entrepreneurship will stabilize our economic and employment situations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to obxhead (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:45 PM

20. Demand starts the process of creating jobs....

 

But it is ultimately the business who is actually creating a job. The business is deciding it can afford to pay someone.

There might be a demand but if a business can handle the demand with the work force they have then they will not hire anyone on thus not creating a job.

So I would say businesses create jobs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to underoath (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:59 PM

23. You just confirmed exactly what I said.

"There might be a demand but if a business can handle the demand with the work force they have then they will not hire anyone on thus not creating a job."

That is exactly correct. ONLY demand can create jobs. Period.

I'll give the paperclip as an example as we all know the story. The guy that invented it made a bunch of money after developing it and marketing it.

However, the need to bind papers together (or whatever) was the driving force behind everything to do with the paperclip from the idea, development, marketing and eventually the job creation it lead to.


Now we are stuck in a what comes first, the chicken or the egg, situation.

We need jobs that pay a living wage to create demand. The only way to create those living wage jobs is by driving demand up.

The easiest and quickest route to begin that process is by ending outsourcing and creating trade laws that make it more profitable to meet US demand by building things within the US.

BTW, welcome to DU

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to obxhead (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:39 PM

27. Thanks!

 

You are right, we are in a tough spot right now..

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to underoath (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:19 PM

32. Tough doesn't even really begin to describe it.

We are stuck in a downward spiral to third world status. Somehow, through stimulus and a few other minor packages of help to the poor, we've managed to put a pause on that downward spiral. However, it really is only a pause.

Unless we end the benefit of outsourcing our jobs to companies large and small, the downward spiral will continue.

Unemployment rates are only half the battle. Quality jobs building and servicing quality products within the US is the ONLY way we will ever begin a true recovery.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to obxhead (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:20 AM

43. We're a nation that is unable to manufacture goods to meet its own consumer demand.

We rely on China and India for that kind of industrial capacity. This was done as a way of pitting labor forces against each other in the pursuit of ever greater profits. Global labor arbitrage is a real phenomenon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:50 PM

21. The foreign policy / national security establishment will screw both labor and corporations

Their key priority is extending American influence in the world. If that means screwing labor while corporations carry the flag into India, so be it. If that means screwing a corporation in order to curry favor from a foreign government, they do that too.

A large slice of government and finance is dedicated to internationalism (American imperialism) and supporting the geopolitical goals of various constituencies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:54 PM

22. I hope Pres Obama can do something about it.


Pres Obama also said in one of the debates:
I also want to close those loopholes that are giving incentives for companies that are shipping jobs overseas. I want to provide tax breaks for companies that are investing here in the United States."


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/08/barack-obama/obama-says-tax-code-rewards-firms-shifting-jobs-ov/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:40 PM

28. They don't get a tax break "for"

moving companies. They get a tax break "when" they relocate. That's been a long standing tax break for companies who moved to larger or more modern facilities. Later it was used to move to "right to work" states....Now they are used to move out of the country. They get to write off all the expenses incurred by the relocation. The trade agreements allow them to keep profits off-shore, to bring in their good without paying import duties etc.

The rich have been waging war on the rest of us for 50 years at least. I hold out little hope for change.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 09:55 PM

33. For or when

sounds like the 600 definitions of "if"

For fucks sake, corporations receive HUGE tax breaks when they move production out of the US. Putting tags on words is irrelevant.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to obxhead (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:31 PM

36. Words are not irrelevant

when you are trying to have an intelligent discussion with people who KNOW it is absurd to say the government gives tax breaks to reward companies for outsourcing jobs. Of course, if the only people with whom you speak are equally ignorant of tax law or inclined toward absurdity continue to say the government rewards outsourcing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:40 PM

37. Right

So, you own acme anvil inc.

You can receive a huge tax break WHEN you actually relocate your production outside of the US.

However, we won't call it a tax break FOR moving the production outside of the US after it happens.

Yeah, it really is absurd to look at the framing of words and numbers.

Corporations receive tax breaks for outsourcing our jobs. THIS IS A FACT! It can NOT be disputed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:50 PM

38. Dwight Eisenhower warned us about this in his farewell address.



If only we had listened...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread