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Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:32 AM

So sad. The Arab Spring has withered on the vine.

There was so much hope.

Now, with what's happened in Egypt; Morsi's grotesque power grab and the further erosion of women's rights there, it looks like the people have lost yet again.

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Reply So sad. The Arab Spring has withered on the vine. (Original post)
cali Nov 2012 OP
B2G Nov 2012 #1
oldhippie Nov 2012 #3
morningfog Nov 2012 #5
B2G Nov 2012 #8
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #41
Hissyspit Nov 2012 #11
B2G Nov 2012 #12
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #42
Daniel537 Nov 2012 #56
Guy Whitey Corngood Nov 2012 #69
WiffenPoof Nov 2012 #87
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #43
Earth_First Nov 2012 #85
4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #2
NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #9
4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #10
FarCenter Nov 2012 #16
4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #20
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #29
NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #32
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #45
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #44
4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #49
underoath Nov 2012 #54
MjolnirTime Nov 2012 #4
cali Nov 2012 #59
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2012 #86
morningfog Nov 2012 #6
farmbo Nov 2012 #7
pampango Nov 2012 #21
AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #38
ToxMarz Nov 2012 #57
leveymg Nov 2012 #13
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #17
leveymg Nov 2012 #19
PufPuf23 Nov 2012 #28
AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #40
UnrepentantLiberal Nov 2012 #65
leveymg Nov 2012 #77
greytdemocrat Nov 2012 #14
MADem Nov 2012 #15
CJCRANE Nov 2012 #18
Posteritatis Nov 2012 #26
Odin2005 Nov 2012 #22
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #47
Nevernose Nov 2012 #74
BanTheGOP Nov 2012 #23
AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #36
BanTheGOP Nov 2012 #52
AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #53
glacierbay Nov 2012 #37
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #48
cali Nov 2012 #60
JCMach1 Nov 2012 #82
Codeine Nov 2012 #66
zellie Nov 2012 #80
Comrade Grumpy Nov 2012 #24
Sgent Nov 2012 #55
zellie Nov 2012 #25
Comrade_McKenzie Nov 2012 #27
Douglas Carpenter Nov 2012 #30
The Midway Rebel Nov 2012 #31
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #33
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #67
MineralMan Nov 2012 #34
zellie Nov 2012 #35
glacierbay Nov 2012 #39
PCIntern Nov 2012 #70
Matariki Nov 2012 #46
sagat Nov 2012 #50
SoCalDem Nov 2012 #51
aandegoons Nov 2012 #58
zellie Nov 2012 #61
aandegoons Nov 2012 #68
Zorra Nov 2012 #62
socialist_n_TN Nov 2012 #63
ananda Nov 2012 #64
DCBob Nov 2012 #71
zellie Nov 2012 #72
rollin74 Nov 2012 #73
zellie Nov 2012 #75
pampango Nov 2012 #76
leveymg Nov 2012 #78
pampango Nov 2012 #81
leveymg Nov 2012 #84
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #79
Enrique Nov 2012 #83
Exultant Democracy Nov 2012 #88

Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:34 AM

1. Some of us saw this coming a mile away

And took a ton of heat for saying so at the time.

Just saying.

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Response to B2G (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:38 AM

3. And you'll probably take more heat .....

 

... for having the audacity to bring it up.

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Response to B2G (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:43 AM

5. I don't know your posting history.

What exactly did you see coming a mile away?

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Response to morningfog (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:47 AM

8. A more repressive government than the one being ousted

I take no glee in this. Many posters here were concerned about the amount of involvement that the Muslim Brotherhood had at the time...which didn't bode well for either democracy or women's rights.

And now we're seeing the results.

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Response to B2G (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:18 PM

41. More repressive government? I call bullshit. This is more of "meet the new boss, same as the old

boss" situation. It's very disheartening, but I can't say they are worse off than they were under Mubarak.

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Response to B2G (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:57 AM

11. So there shouldn't have been a Arab Spring?

They shouldn't have gotten rid of Mubarek?

Plenty of us recognized that the correct system of checks and balances should have been put into place before the elections . Are you saying no revolution at all should have happened. What about Tunisia? Are you saying the U.S. should have just continued to hypocritically support the same old dictators?

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:05 AM

12. Sometimes we get so caught up in the whole 'viva la revolucion' mentality,

that we don't stop to consider what that revolution will look like in reality. In this case, I was very concerned about Morsi's MB ties and it dismayed me that we were backing him so enthusiatically.

That's all I'm saying.

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Response to B2G (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:19 PM

42. Scary Muslims! Were you as concerned with Mubarak's ties to the US?

Doubtful.

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Response to B2G (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:58 PM

56. "We"?

Who's we? The US Govt.? I never saw much support for Morsi there. DU? Didn't see much support for him here either. The fact is the Arab Spring is something that was going to happen sooner or later. No govt. is eternal. Its better that these countries go through the motions now and get it over with so they can hopefully move on to true democratic representation in due time.

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Response to B2G (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:53 AM

69. I'm not aware of a single person here supporting Morsi. No one knew who he was during the revolution

If someone here expressed support for him. I just didn't see it (not saying there might not have been an exception but unlikely). Now I do remember people supporting Muhammad El-Baradei. Which I still maintain would have been a welcome change.

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Response to B2G (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:18 AM

87. B2G - Don't Even Try

Sometimes I wonder how we ever got to be known as the Party of open-mindedness. Lately DU seems like a place where "observations" are interpreted as judgement. So sad. Knee jerk comes to mind.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:22 PM

43. Bad bad Muslims are like children and need US imposed strongmen to brutally keep them in line

otherwise they will be unfree! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! And the US corporate profits...


Between this thread and the Gaza stuff the amount of anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia (and I say this as a very militant atheist) is sickening.

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Response to B2G (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:56 AM

85. Oh, you must be so proud!

How's it feel?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:37 AM

2. Revolutions often fail to improve things

 

Its more likely you'll just out another group of assholes in charge.

Lasting change won't occur in one season.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:52 AM

9. There's a quote about the day after the revolution, the revolutionaries become the conservatives.

Sadly, it's true. Once the revolutionaries gain power -- even if it was a popular revolution -- they naturally want to keep that power and start using the methods they revolted against.

It's very rare that that doesn't happen. George Washington could have easily proclaimed himself King (and he would have had plenty of support; most of the colonists were fine with monarchy and only opposed the abuses of one particular king).

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:57 AM

10. That is why I think our founders deserve so much credit

 

Not for winning independence. Such wars are easy and common.

They were great men instead because they gave up power once they had it and with no one forcing them to do so. George in particular.

Such men are rare. We were incredibly fortunate to have so many in the right time and place.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:20 AM

16. If George and Martha had children, he would have been king.

He was likely less interested in kingship because he had no son to pass the crown to. He became President instead.

The American "Revolution" was really a "War for Independence" from Great Britain. The founders collectively consolidated power by driving out Tories and adopting the Constitution to centralize power in the federal government. Ultimately, the primacy of the Federal government over the state was established by the Civil War.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:14 PM

20. If your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle

 

where are you getting this speculation?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:50 PM

29. LOL. The analysis was far fetched.

The country's founders actually ceded to the states, but after trying that for a while, saw that states often fought each other over rights of issues like commerce and citizenship. So a federalist system was created out of necessity.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:14 PM

32. I think he was simply not that interested in being any kind of leader.

He didn't refuse to be a king, or accept the presidency, for any real noble reasons. He more than likely just wanted to retire.

The "founding fathers" certainly had their flaws. When they spoke about protecting the minority against the majority, they were really thinking about the minority of wealthy landowners and the large "unwashed masses". But flawed as the individual men were as people, the system they came up with was certainly brilliant. Not perfect, but still brilliant.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:28 PM

45. He was also deeply unpopular because of Jay's Treaty when he decided not to run a third term.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:27 PM

44. "The people who own the country ought to govern it"--John Jay.

Founding fathers, great wise people. Great wise people who just happened to (many of them at least) own slaves and didn't think working class whites should vote or if they did needed strong "checks" on democracy to make sure they didn't pick on the poor, minority that is the ruling class (check out Federalist Paper Number 10--it basically spells this out).

Give me a break.

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Response to Puregonzo1188 (Reply #44)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:32 PM

49. I said they were great men and they were

 

I never claimed they were saints.

If you're looking for perfection you may want to leave this planet.

/although I suspect if you found heaven or nirvana or whatever you'd still be upset as "it's a bit too perfect ya know? A bit offputting".

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:49 PM

54. I think our Founding Fathers and the revolutionary army

 

Deserve credit for beating the British Army.


The were not soldiers. They had no military experience. They were thrown together to take on the British Empire, and won.


They had a tough and long road ahead on them. They pulled together, got through some hard times and we're able to defeat the biggest army on the planet.

I say that deserves some credit.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:40 AM

4. Your limited perspective is disappointing but not really unexpected.

 

I'm glad that the millions who have made the Arab Spring a reality don't have to look to you for approval or support.

They don't need allies who give up and throw their hands in the air at the first sign of difficulty.

It has taken them thousands of years to get this far. They will progress with or without you.

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Response to MjolnirTime (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 06:12 AM

59. the first sign of difficulty. Yeah, right.

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Response to MjolnirTime (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:08 AM

86. just curious, why the personal attack on Cali? Couldn't you have just said you disagree? nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:45 AM

6. The people are not idly standing by now, either.

This isn't over. The Arab Spring was a beginning to long process that continues today. Nothing has withered. Watch how the people of Egypt react and don't forget that Syria has hardened into a civil war. How can you say the movement has withered?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:45 AM

7. BS... They've united to stop the hijacking...

...by the Muslim Brotherhood.
There are 2 million in Tahrir Square as we post.

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Response to farmbo (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:56 PM

21. "There are 2 million in Tahrir Square as we post." Thanks for pointing this out. Egyptians must know

that their revolution is not a 'one and done' affair. They will have to continue to fight for it.

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Response to farmbo (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:50 PM

38. Damn, I certainly hope so.

The good thing is, is that at least one country's revolutionaries kicked Islamist ass, too; our friends in Libya!

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Response to farmbo (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:42 PM

57. I think they also reported a number of Muslim Brotherhood offices have been burned

I kind of think this is far from over. The American Revolution to FAR longer than this has been going on. Good thing they didn't give up as easily as some comfortable observers do.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:07 AM

13. In Libya and Syria, the Spring was little more than a front for CIA regime change operations.

Opportunistic or engineered, it makes little difference. The end result has been an entirely predictable regional spread of religious-based civil war between the Sunnis and Shi'ia as a proxy war between the Saudis and Iran.

Unfortunately, urged on by the Israelis and Gulf Arabs, the US and EU took sides. More and bigger Blowback is inevitable. I can see no easy way out of this now.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:30 AM

17. Me neither unfortunately. K&R for this post alone. nt

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:12 PM

19. Thanks again!

It's nice having some backup.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:50 PM

28. What leveymg said.

The USA comes out as quite hypocritical when one compares our actions, known and unknown to public, in Libya, Syria, etc compared to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and other nations of the GCC.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:59 PM

40. I seriously doubt that re: Libya & Syria(at least as far as the criminal factions are concerned).

Egypt may be a different story, however, as it's been posited by some that the Muslim Brotherhood over there's has had links with the CIA for some time.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:26 AM

65. Yep.

 

It's the CIA and those conniving Israelis again. Do you have any proof to back this up or is it something you read on the internet?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 01:18 PM

77. CIA involvement in those regime change operations is acknowledged and indisputable.

As for Israel's support for that, one needs to go back to the beginning, the seminal 1996 regime change document prepared for then and now PM Netanyahu, "A Clean Break, A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" (a Greater Israel) by a group of American neocons that went on to positions of great influence in the Bush Administration and whose thinking still pervades some corridors in Washington. See, http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm, (excerpted version). A Clean Break, authored by Richard Perle and fellow Pentagon Office of Special Plans (OSP) policy planners, Douglas Feith and David Wurmser (the guys who carried out the intelligence deceptions that led to the Iraq War), is a remarkably prescient and accurate plan for the string of of regime change operations, and the campaign to derail Iran's leadership of Shi'ia Islam, that were actually implemented during the next 15 years.

Wiki: Journalist Jason Vest wrote that the report was "a kind of US-Israeli neoconservative manifesto." In Vest's analysis, it proposed "a mini-cold war in the Middle East, advocating the use of proxy armies for regime changes, destabilization and containment. Indeed, it even goes so far as to articulate a way to advance right-wing Zionism by melding it with missile-defense advocacy." He wrote that because of the shared organizational membership of the paper's authors the report provides "perhaps the most insightful window" into the "policy worldview" of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs and Center for Security Policy, two United States-based thinktanks.

An October 2003 editorial in The Nation criticized the Syria Accountability Act and connected it to the Clean Break report and authors:

"To properly understand the Syria Accountability Act, one has to go back to a 1996 document, 'A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm,' drafted by a team of advisers to Benjamin Netanyahu in his run for prime minister of Israel. The authors included current Bush advisers Richard Perle and Douglas Feith. 'Syria challenges Israel on Lebanese soil,' they wrote, calling for 'striking Syrian military targets in Lebanon, and should that prove insufficient, striking at select targets in Syria proper.' No wonder Perle was delighted by the Israeli strike. 'It will help the peace process,' he told the Washington Post, adding later that the United States itself might have to attack Syria. But what Perle means by 'helping the peace process' is not resolving the conflict by bringing about a viable, sovereign Palestinian state but rather - as underscored in 'A Clean Break' - 'transcending the Arab-Israeli conflict' altogether by forcing the Arabs to accept most, if not all, of Israel's territorial conquests and its nuclear hegemony in the region."

John Dizard claimed there is evidence in the Clean Break document of Ahmed Chalabi's involvement. (Chalabi, an Iraqi politician, was an ardent opponent of Saddam Hussein.):

"In the section on Iraq, and the necessity of removing Saddam Hussein, there was telltale 'intelligence' from Chalabi and his old Jordanian Hashemite patron, Prince Hassan: 'The predominantly Shi'a population of southern Lebanon has been tied for centuries to the Shi'a leadership in Najaf, Iraq, rather than Iran. Were the Hashemites to control Iraq, they could use their influence over Najaf to help Israel wean the south Lebanese Shi'a away from Hizbollah, Iran, and Syria.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:13 AM

14. If you...

Honestly thought is was going to end well...

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:15 AM

15. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

Except WAY worse for women and religious minorities.

I hate to say I predicted it, but I did. I've been there, done that and bought the damn tee shirt...way back in 79.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:09 PM

18. Democracy is a constant struggle

even in the so-called "Free World".

No revolution creates a perfect society from day one.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:43 PM

26. Definitely

It's really something watching people in the west sit back in casual judgement of a process, a couple of years in, that it took us seven centuries to passably pull off, isn't it?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:57 PM

22. Oh fuck it, the Middle East is hopeless.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:30 PM

47. Wow racist much? An entire region and people of the world are hopeless?

\

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #22)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:52 PM

74. I was in Tunisia a few months after their uprising

It was during Ramadan, iirc. Lots of hope. Lovely people, lovely country, as modern a country you'd hope to find. Also a functioning democracy and probably the best treatment of women on that continent.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:16 PM

23. The Muslim Brotherhood is not as evil as the Israelis or the republicans

 

Keep in mind that they did what they had to do to keep the repressionist Israelis and American republicans out of the sequence. THAT is far more important than a minor uprising that will take care of itself and establish a progressive, socialist Arab society that will coalesce with our global mandate. In fundamental transformation, there will be a few broken eggs; this is merely one of them.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:48 PM

36. They didn't do shit!

The Muslim Brotherhood did nothing to improve the situation. NOTHING. If the MB stays in power, I can guarantee they'll be headed in the exact opposite direction. You'll see......the people of Egypt were really badly screwed.

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:02 PM

52. It will get better. Too many progressives around the world will ensure it gets put right.

 

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #52)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:35 PM

53. I do hope that would be the case.

And there is indeed some hope, as Libya's thrown off the Islamists for the most part, and Syria may, too, be able to escape Egypt's fate. I just hope, like everyone else here, the efforts of all the good people out there pay off.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:49 PM

37. What a crock of shit.

 

Since when did Israel discriminate against women? Since when did Israel's Pres. grab power like Morsi did? Are women suppressed in the US? Has Pres. Obama grabbed power like Morsi?
You actually approve of this power grab by Morsi?
He's no better than Mubarek and hopefully the Egyptian will either force him to change his mind or throw him out on his ass.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:31 PM

48. Our President does execute without trial US citizens now.

We're not doing very well in the democracy sphere ourselves, not that we were ever very good at it. Ask Eugene Debs or Fred Hampton about American civil liberties.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 06:18 AM

60. Bullshit. If you're a woman the MB is not a good thing, but I've come to the conclusion that most

men ANYWHERE do no really care about women's rights.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a religious fundamentalist organization. Sorry, but fuck fundamentalists of any stripe- be they Jewish, Christian or Muslim.

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Response to cali (Reply #60)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 07:05 PM

82. You are correct Cali

Most of the regimes in the region are profoundly anti-woman and patriarchal at their heart. The Saudi version of Islam that they have pushed all over the Muslim world is anti-woman from top to bottom.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:31 AM

66. You're an idiotic cartoon troll.

You really aren't fooling anyone with your nonsense.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 05:48 PM

80. "progressive, socialist Arab society"

 

when exactly does this happen?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:36 PM

24. Attacks of the vapors notwithstanding, the politics of the Middle East continues to evolve.

Morsi won the election, now he consolidates power. If this is tyranny, it is the tyranny of the majority.

Meanwhile, more or less democratic states are emerging in Tunisia and Libya.

Syria is engulfed in civil war pitting secularists against Islamists.

The Jordanian monarchy wobbles.

Lebanon trembles.

And it's still the Arab Winter in the Sunni oil monarchies.

It is a new era, whether we like every single development or not.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:52 PM

55. That's a little disingeneous

winning a popular election doesn't give anyone the right to "consolidate power" -- it gives them the right to govern according to their elected position. Examples of popularly elected people who then become monsters are legion -- with Hitler being the prime recent example.

Tossing the judiciary and making unilateral decisions is a bad sign for anywhere that wants to retain human rights or any form of democracy.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:42 PM

25. The most surprising thing

 

is why anyone would be surprised.

It seems they want a religious caliphate and not a democracy.

So silly anyone expected different.

I'm sure Syria and Palestine will be the exception.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:48 PM

27. Much blood will be shed and leaders will come and go... but the eventual outcome will be great...

 

Morsi will just be another short paragraph in a history book.

Egypt is still in a period of revolution. They're empowered by what they've been able to achieve thus far and will hold Morsi's feet to the fire.

With other democracies serving the world as a blueprint, it's a process of rapid evolution.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:02 PM

30. authoritarian orders don't usually - if ever - make for smooth transitions to liberal democracies

Whether the Soviet Union or the end of the colonial orders in Africa or the Indian Subcontinent or even the end of British rule in the 13 colonies or the collapse of the old South following the American civil war - to say nothing of the French Revolution - there was always a very, very, long and very unstable, volatile and dangerous transition period. Putting all the pieces back together "again" is very difficult when they have never been together in the first place. It is too soon to say how well it will work out. It is probably too soon to say how the American democratic-capitalist experiment will work out. It is always too soon.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:12 PM

31. You forgot to add the sarcasm thingy to your post.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:18 PM

33. Some things take years, Cali

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #33)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:39 AM

67. Patience is the key!

I believe the rest of the 21st Century is fucked, but after the massive resource wars in 2065 and 2118, the surviving people will FINALLY understand and start to work together.

May not be exact with the dates, but I honestly believe this is our future.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:30 PM

34. With the long history in that region, it is short-sighted to

expect dramatic change in a short time. That's a sure road to disappointment.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:43 PM

35. Morsi has shown himself for what he is.

 

Screw rights
Screw women
Screw minorities

It's all about power, Islamic caliphate and duping the public.

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Response to zellie (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:50 PM

39. And the eventual destruction of Israel. nt.

 

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #39)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:09 PM

70. That's exactly right...

it is the one thing the leaders have in common...it is just too expensive in many respects for them to try...and fail miserably...again.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:28 PM

46. The times of change aren't over yet.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:24 PM

50. Better luck next time, fellas.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:32 PM

51. True change aften comes in "fits & starts"

Uprisings & revolutions often take a LONG time to "resolve"....and we can never know how they will end up..

Our own history proves that...

revolution starts 1776
constitution isn't final until 1789
British come back 1812

we have a few decades of relative "calm"
then we have a civil war that is not truly "over" for many , and it's 2012

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 06:08 AM

58. Three things would kill it.

1. America got all the corporate sock puppets installed they hoped for.
2. Damn Arabs installed the wrong people.
3. Palestinians wanted some of that.

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Response to aandegoons (Reply #58)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 10:18 AM

61. Huh?

 

How do you figure that?
What corporate sock puppets ?

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Response to zellie (Reply #61)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:42 AM

68. Make no mistake the US position of supporting those friendly to our oil interest is top proirity.

They have had to walk a tight rope since president Obama made his 2009 speech. I stand by my statement if the US does not get who they want it will be turmoil for the foreseeable future.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:02 AM

62. One more case of crazy, authoritarian religious people doing *their thing* ~ bringing more suffering

misery, and oppression into the world.

Progressives throw a revolution, and religious fascists steal it.

What a wonderful world it would be for the rest of us if, right now, right at this moment, every religious extremist was raptured in glory to the planet Kolob, or wherever else their respective big daddy in the sky lives.


A win-win for everybody ~ they get what they want, we get peace, love, compassion, freedom, and sanity.

Imagine that.


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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:15 AM

63. As a couple of others have pointed out..........

these things are not cut and dried and over immediately. There are always defeats and setbacks. Anybody who looks to make any sort of radical change ANYWHERE (yes even in the good ole USA) needs to get used to the idea of a long and winding and, yes, bumpy road. Revolution is NOT for sprinters.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:15 AM

64. Yup. Pharoah is back..

.. with a vengeance.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:12 PM

71. This is not over yet. There is still hope.

It could take years maybe decades.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #71)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:21 PM

72. Yup

 

Meanwhile the largest country in the Mideast is now a totalitarian state that doesn't respect women, minorities or the rule of law.

You seem a lot more patient than I am.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:47 PM

73. yes. unfortunately, liberals in Egypt are strongly outnumbered by fundamentalist knuckle-draggers

and that doesn't bode well for women, gays or minorities

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Response to rollin74 (Reply #73)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 01:13 PM

75. Sounds like Sharia law is coming.

 

meh...who cares,

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 01:18 PM

76. Arabs don't appreciate freedom. They prefer dictators.

A pretty stupid view of folks in the Middle East.

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Response to pampango (Reply #76)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 01:29 PM

78. They actually prefer having their countries bombed into ruins.

We just give them what they want, like Coca Cola and blue jeans, right?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #78)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 06:23 PM

81. People, including Syrians, want human rights not bombs. n/t

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Response to pampango (Reply #81)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:55 AM

84. But, we've given them bombs, MANPADs, and RPGs.

(Actually, the Saudis paid for most of them) Guess that's what makes it a "Humanitarian Intervention", in some books.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 02:49 PM

79. Yes it is very sad

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 07:14 PM

83. that is quite a leap

imho

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