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Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:06 AM

4 Common Myths About Israel and Gaza


http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/289-134/14657-4-common-myths-about-israel-and-gaza

"It is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict," writes Kanwisher, who analyzed the entire timeline of killings between Palestinians and Israelis from September 2000 to October 2008, to determine if there was a historical pattern. "Seventy-nine percent of all conflict pauses (during the study period) were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks (the remaining 13% were interrupted by both sides on the same day). In addition, we found that this pattern - in which Israel is more likely than Palestine to kill first after a conflict pause - becomes more pronounced for longer (ceasefires). Indeed, of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than nine days."

Myth: Retaliation by Palestinians is either terrorism or just plain stupidity. The former is the common belief of advocates of Zionism, and the latter is a frequent concern (albeit not often expressed openly) among liberal supporters of Palestinian rights.

Fact: The right to self-defense (most often through "retaliation") is enshrined in international law and was America's own first response after it was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001. Why was it ethical for the U.S., but not for Palestinians?

As one young Gazan wrote on Facebook: "When you see your family killed by Israeli soldiers in front of your eyes and you see your house demolished in front of you, you feel so angry that you want to fight back. But once you fight back, you are called a terrorist and the aggressor becomes the victim who has the right of defense."




48 replies, 3397 views

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Arrow 48 replies Author Time Post
Reply 4 Common Myths About Israel and Gaza (Original post)
eridani Nov 2012 OP
GitRDun Nov 2012 #1
Hydra Nov 2012 #17
GitRDun Nov 2012 #22
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #28
Hydra Nov 2012 #46
GitRDun Nov 2012 #47
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #2
eridani Nov 2012 #5
redgreenandblue Nov 2012 #7
CthulhusEvilCousin Nov 2012 #8
redgreenandblue Nov 2012 #10
CthulhusEvilCousin Nov 2012 #20
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #25
CthulhusEvilCousin Dec 2012 #48
Mosby Nov 2012 #3
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #4
eridani Nov 2012 #6
davidpdx Nov 2012 #9
malaise Nov 2012 #10
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #29
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #31
eridani Nov 2012 #32
malaise Nov 2012 #10
McCamy Taylor Nov 2012 #13
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #18
cpwm17 Nov 2012 #14
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #15
Douglas Carpenter Nov 2012 #16
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #19
RoccoR5955 Nov 2012 #21
me b zola Nov 2012 #23
Logical Nov 2012 #24
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #26
redgreenandblue Nov 2012 #36
Riftaxe Nov 2012 #27
redgreenandblue Nov 2012 #35
jackbenimble Nov 2012 #43
redgreenandblue Nov 2012 #45
Deep13 Nov 2012 #30
FreeJoe Nov 2012 #33
Logical Nov 2012 #34
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #37
Logical Nov 2012 #38
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #39
Logical Nov 2012 #40
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #41
eridani Nov 2012 #42
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #44

Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:15 AM

1. The Palestinians are fools to resort to

Violence. As long as they return violence with violence, they will lose. US politicians are so afraid of their own shadows they will not pressure Israel to a solution unless they are shamed into it by the rest of the world. It does not matter if Israel always starts it. They control the game with US backing. The Palestinians need a new strategist.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:34 AM

17. We'll never see anything about them if they resist peacefully

But if that would make you feel better about them being "acceptable martyrs," I guess we should just do that.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:30 PM

22. Your comment highlights exactly what the problem is both here and over there.

The only martyrs in that story never picked up a weapon...the guys with the weapons on both sides are war criminals. The apologists on both sides are simply blind, and no amount of sarcasm will change the facts.

We see pictures of Israeli soldiers calling Netanyahu a wuss for not letting them go ahead with the ground invasion. The Palestinians round up and execute the "informers" without trial.

I am sure folks told blacks in the 1950's and 1960's southern US the same sage advice you gave, no one will know if we resist peacefully. I am here to say Palestinians have been resisting violently for decades...whose rights got recognized first?

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:59 PM

28. More to the point...

The British were powerless in the face of a peaceful Gandhi after roughly 150 years of the Raj.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 04:18 PM

46. That's cute that peaceful resistance has occasionally worked

But more often than not, when the people doing the killing have no shame you don't get to hear much from the victims. They just kill the people that are in their way and be done with it.

Some Examples:

Burma
Rwanda
Columbia
Congo
East Timor
Chile
...

Kinda making me sick to compile a list. As I said, if the Palestinians were to simply disappear in a bunch of mass graves, would that be a better end because they died having not resorted to violence to survive?

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Response to Hydra (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 04:25 PM

47. That would be a terrible end for Palestinians.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see both Palestinian and Israeli violence as a road to nowhere other than further violence.

I do understand the outrage against Israel's violence...it is unconscionable. How our politicians can stand by and watch it is beyond me. I just don't agree that a Palestinian violent response is the answer. Enjoyed the discussion.

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Response to eridani (Original post)


Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:36 AM

5. Actual facts say that it is usually Israelis who break the peace

You don't think that people living in a prison camp should get mad about that?

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Response to eridani (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:55 AM

7. Facts and history don't matter for the defenders of Israel.

That much is clear by now.

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Response to eridani (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:55 AM

8. Yeah

It's just awful how Israel forces Hamas to shoot random people in the street without a trial and enforce Sharia law.

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Response to CthulhusEvilCousin (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:06 AM

10. The question was who breaks the peace.

Any thoughts on that?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:56 PM

20. No

I have no opinions on the matter. It is a fact that Hamas broke the peace due to their religious doctrines that declare that Jews are descended from pigs and that women should be stoned to death if they were raped.

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Response to CthulhusEvilCousin (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:44 PM

25. Let me ask you this. Did you hear what the son of an Israeli

President had to say about Palestinians last week? I see you are upset and rightly so, at vile words being used to describe Israelis, me too. But you left out the fact some pretty vile words have been used by Israelis about Palestinians.

My conclusion re your comment is that you believe only Israel has suffered in this conflict, only Israelis are attacked with vile language.

This is false. People on both sides of any conflict who are so biased in their views no matter how justified they may be, are not the people who succeed in leading the way to peace.

It takes people of enormous strength of character to be able to compromise with people who are their mortal enemies. But they do it so that future generations will not continue to suffer from these conflicts.

I am not sure I could do it, frankly, but eventually someone will have to, on both sides.

Unless the current cycle of violence is acceptable.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:34 PM

48. Sorry, I didn't see your response

The sad fact is, this is a farcical conflict. Even the Palestinian pretensions to the Temple Mount are modern creations, with the entire site being in ruins prior to the Israeli nation being created. Now, today, it is the third holiest site to Islam. There is politics going on here in the direction of Hamas and the PA authority. They are not run by their own free-wills, but do what other foreign nations tell them to do. Arafat, for example, had worked closely with the KGB. The real angst with Israel is caused by purely cynical leaders in other nations dictating the policies, or promoting the violence, using religion to do so. And this has been going on since the day that Israel was declared a nation, followed shortly thereafter with the invasion of Israel by its neighbors. And this will not end until after a significant war turns the entire middle east into a pit of hell.

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:28 AM

3. trying to murder civilians is self defense?

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Response to Mosby (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:32 AM

4. Is successfully murdering civilians self-defense?

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Response to Mosby (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:37 AM

6. The kill ratio is way better than 100/1 in favor of Israelis

Being mostly helpless to defend yourself against conquerers tends to make people mad, and not particularly rational.

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Response to eridani (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:58 AM

9. Well plus the "Iron Dome" is able to catch some of the rockets giving the Israelis an advantage

I have no idea of the accuracy in terms of the number of rockets fired and the number stopped, but it sounds like it's better than 50%. The whole thing is just hate on hate compounding.

It reminds me of when Robin Williams was at the Met in the early 80's and was talking about his drug problem. He quoted Einstein's definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the different results.

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Response to eridani (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:06 AM

10. Doesn't matter

The West doesn't give a flying fugg. Palestinians are supposed to remain silent while their land is stolen from them and anyone who resists is slaughtered.

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Response to malaise (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:02 PM

29. The "West" has its own

atrocities for which they have never atoned.

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Response to eridani (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:07 PM

31. Well everyone here knows (or should know by now) that 1 Israeli life is worth

 

100 Palestinian lives, just like 1 American life is worth 1000 Arab lives (see Iraq 2003-11).

(in case it's needed)

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Response to Mosby (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 02:32 AM

32. No, it's the retaliation of the helpless

If they can't stop the Israelis from killing 100 of them for every Israeli they kill, they'll try to bring that up to 2 or 3 per 100. Not rational, but being unable to defend yourself never made anyone rational, and it never will.

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Response to eridani (Original post)


Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:14 AM

13. Follow the money. Why is there a conspiracy to keep Palestinians poor?

Because that is the source of the Palestinian despair. They are poor next to a very rich country and wealth disparity is much more dangerous than mere poverty, causing depression, violence, social disintegration.

So, why don't the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel get together and build up the Palestinian economy the way we did Germany and Japan after the war? What do others gain by keeping Gaza poor?

1) It helps the Sauds preserve their monarchy because they can claim that Israel is the enemy---and folks at home forget that they are ruled by a corrupt monarchy (the "I used to be a Marxist but now I am a Muslim" strategy to keep the masses down)

2) It makes the Palestinians and other Arabs angry, which gives the US an excuse to flood Israel with money and weapons. Good for the arms dealers.

3) It allows the government in Israel a 24-7 "terra" distraction to keep its own citizenry in check. In particular, it forces all young people to join the army, which allows the government a chance to indoctrinate them into "you do what you are told".

4) Bush Jr. used the poverty of the Palestinians and the despair/anger it generates to manufacture a War on Terra that was actually a war on the Constitution----and Christmas everyday for a bunch of corporate welfare queens.

5) Poor folks make great uneducated, low skill workers!

6) And where would Saudi Arabia's favorite Sunni Muslim Inquisition, aka Al Qeada be without the poverty of Palestine? Bankrupt and begging for members.

The poverty and despair of the Palestinian people makes so much money for so many people---which is why no one intends to do a damn thing to help them.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:10 PM

18. And this ^ is the way it is. n/t

 

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:36 AM

14. From what I've seen it's usually Israel that is the aggressor in these exchanges of violence

And from history, Israel is completely responsible for this conflict. That shouldn't be in dispute for any sane person.

As politicians, Israel's leaders think war is advantageous for them. A little Palestinian turkey shoot fits the bill.

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:42 AM

15. kr.

 

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:55 AM

16. thank you - but to quote the late-great Edward W. Said, "To criticize Zionism is the confront an

endless wall of denial."

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:49 PM

19. ..

 

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:01 PM

21. A lot of you folks should watch it.

Because you might be accused of being anti-Semitic, if you go on "blaming" the Jews.
Personally, I see the fact that in THIS cease-fire, Israel is already testing out the cease fire http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/24/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?hp&_r=0
Perhaps this is a prelude to an action with Iran, or perhaps it has something to do with the election in Israel in January?

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:33 PM

23. K&R

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Response to eridani (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:41 PM

24. Needless to say, this is a one sided story biased against Israel. And posting the truth....

will get locked anyway.

The initial response in this OP was locked and was 100% fair.

What a one sided story!!!!

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Response to Logical (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:51 PM

26. I read that post and wondered why it was hidden until I got to the

last paragraph. Did you read that paragraph? Read it again and substitute the word 'Israelis' where you see 'Palestinians'. Maybe then you'll understand why it was hidden.

Bigotry is bigotry not just when it's aimed at those we like.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:44 PM

36. Indeed. Unfortunately bigotry against Arabs is still largely acceptable in the US.

People can get away with all saying all sorts of broad-brush bullshit about Arabs.

I'm wondering why a person who has essentially declared an entire group/race of people to be savages is still allowed to post here.

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Response to Logical (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:55 PM

27. It was a well reasoned post

So of course it had to be hidden.

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:35 AM

35. The post was hidden because of the last paragraph. nt

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:30 PM

43. It shouldn't have been. n/t

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Response to jackbenimble (Reply #43)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:30 PM

45. Please do elaborate.

How exactly is the last paragraph not a broad brush bigoted statment?

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Response to eridani (Original post)


Response to eridani (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:19 AM

33. I hate to come off as sympathetic to Israel...

because I find so many of their actions vile and contemptuous. On the other hand, I think it is impossible to convince me to support people that indiscriminately fire rockets intentionally into civilian areas and hide among civilians to make sure that non-combatants take the brunt of any retaliation. In short, Hamas's tactics are disgusting and beyond contempt. If a peace lover like Ghandi led the Palestinians instead of a string of brutal thugs, Israel would have had to capitulate decades ago.

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Response to FreeJoe (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:43 AM

34. + 1000, over 2200 rockets ths year alone!

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Response to Logical (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:51 PM

37. Resulting in how many deaths? When I was young, the excuse was that young Palestinians were

 

mean and throwing rocks at the poor downtrodden soldiers. And here we are half a century later...

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:22 PM

38. Well, maybe some Israelis will die and you will feel better! Good luck! Wow! So now.....

your bias against Israel is that not enough of them are being killed? Pathetic!

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Response to Logical (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:39 PM

39. You make my point for me. Trying to justify ongoing crimes by throwing out meaningless numbers

 

and ignoring the facts on the ground.

And then go for the projection gambit. Pathetic indeed.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:56 PM

40. I guess you think they should allow 2200 rockets to be fired and not react. I tell you what.....

if they stop firing rockets at CIVILIANS then Israel will stop bombing them.

You have not put much thought into this I can tell.

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Response to Logical (Reply #40)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:17 PM

41. Well, they haven't for decades, why should we believe they will this time?

 

It's not always the Israeli government’s fault, there are no good guys in this disaster, but this most recent round of fail was incited by them.

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Response to FreeJoe (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:10 PM

42. "Hiding"? What horseshit. Gaza is wall to wall people

--one of the most densely populated places on earth. Israel will not allow Gaza to have a govenment, police, economy, sufficient food and water--not even sports stadiums. Anyone who gets mad enough about that to hit back is totally surrounded by people in every single possible location in Gaza.

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Response to FreeJoe (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:41 PM

44. Pretty sure Gaza is all civilian areas

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