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Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:41 PM

Did they really get a ceasefire?

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2012, 05:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I was afraid that everything had gotten so bad that no one would be able to get them to the table this time? Hillary must have done a lot of work to get this accomplished, even if they break it later. This shit is bad.

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Arrow 18 replies Author Time Post
Reply Did they really get a ceasefire? (Original post)
kentuck Nov 2012 OP
dipsydoodle Nov 2012 #1
Enrique Nov 2012 #2
kentuck Nov 2012 #3
oldhippydude Nov 2012 #4
shrdlu Nov 2012 #5
The Straight Story Nov 2012 #6
The Straight Story Nov 2012 #7
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #8
ellisonz Nov 2012 #9
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #11
ellisonz Nov 2012 #12
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #13
ellisonz Nov 2012 #14
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #15
kentuck Nov 2012 #10
Lucinda Nov 2012 #16
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #17
kentuck Nov 2012 #18

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:43 PM

1. Its due to start in 18 minutes time at 7pm. GMT

Not long to wait to find out.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:44 PM

2. yes they did

based on the fact that the U.S. announced it.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:48 PM

3. Huge story!

If the ceasefire holds?

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:49 PM

4. of course...

Thank you SOS Hillary Clinton, and President Obama.. for showing the world how real diplomacy works..

for Senators Mc Cain & Graham.. this is real policy..

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:53 PM

5. Good job, Hil!

It won't last. Never does. But is good to stop the killing for a time...

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:55 PM

6. Yes, watching it live, but in Hebrew

I kept pressing 1 for english on the video but not working


added link:

http://live.reuters.com/Event/Conflict_on_the_Gaza_Strip

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:57 PM

7. Text of agreement

Agreement of Understanding For a Ceasefire in the Gaza Strip


1: (no title given for this section)

A. Israel should stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land, sea and air including incursions and targeting of individuals.

B. All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.

C. Opening the crossings and facilitating the movements of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas and procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.

D. Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed.


2: Implementation mechanisms:

A. Setting up the zero hour for the ceasefire understanding to enter into effect.

B. Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.

C. Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations Egypt as the sponsor of this understanding shall be informed to follow up.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:49 PM

8. The trouble I see there is "All Palestinian Factions"

Islamic Jihad has an unfortunate habit of violating that part of previous agreements.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #8)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:56 PM

9. If Hamas wants to be big kid on the block, it's got to start acting like big kid on the block.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:03 PM

11. Thank you for that non-sequitor

Hamas has in the past worked to curb "splinter" factions, such as Islamic Jihad, so you aren't really making a point here, ellisonz.

My question is how much "leeway" is given. What kentuck points out below would seem to imply that it's got at least some amount of consideration for "acting in good faith," so, there's that.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:12 PM

12. Non-sequiturs are logical fallacies...

...it's not a logical fallacy to state that Hamas being nominally in control of Gaza needs to uphold it's end of a cease-fire agreement that states that "All Palestinian factions" should abide by its terms. I'm making an excellent point, but you just don't like it because it challenges your attempt to obfuscate the facts of the matter.

B. All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/21/israel-hamas-peace-agreement-text_n_2171602.html


This ceasefire agreement is a mile-wide and an inch deep. Israel has no reason at all to give Hamas such a presumption that it will act in "good faith."

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:35 PM

13. You're right. I meant "glib bullshit."

My point is that there are, in fact, factions that Hamas does not control. If these factions - say Islamic Jihad, for the obvious example - decide they want to fuck over the cease-fire, what happens? Does Israel call all bets off, or does it grant allowance if Hamas responds by going after the guilty parties? After all, I don't suppose preventative crime-fighting is any easier in Gaza than it is in Tel Aviv.

It's an important question for the success of this agreement.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:58 PM

14. "if Hamas responds by going after the guilty parties"

I wouldn't hold my breathe on that one.

"I don't suppose preventative crime-fighting is any easier in Gaza than it is in Tel Aviv."

Now that's "glib bullshit." I'll await any evidence you can present that in the past Hamas has made any internal effort at all, other than the elimination of the moderates of Fatah

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:13 PM

15. Sure thing

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/world/middleeast/19gaza.html?_r=1
Hamas has made some efforts to prevent rocket fire by smaller militant groups. Both Israel and Hamas declared unilateral cease-fires to end the Gaza war.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hamas-continued-rocket-fire-by-fatah-armed-group-harms-palestinian-interests-1.248631
In a statement carried by the official Palestinian news agency Maan, Hamas warned the militant factions against violating the terms of the cease-fire with Israel, saying such violations harmed the Palestinian national interest. Hamas also threatened to take measures against the violators.

A Hamas spokesman said the truce was a national Palestinian interest and that anyone who tried to sabotage it was acting in an "anti-national" way. He called on Egypt, which brokered the cease-fire agreement, to talk to those factions that are "motivated by anti-national politics."


http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/07/10/idUSL103182282
GAZA, July 10 (Reuters) - Hamas arrested two militants who fired cross-border rockets into southern Israel from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, in the first such detentions since the Islamists and Israel agreed a truce last month, militants said


But, it seems my question has already been answered;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021863632
Several rockets were launched from Gaza after 9 pm, when the ceasefire between Gaza and Israel took effect. The IDF held its fire

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #8)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:56 PM

10. But also this:

"B. Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon."

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:17 PM

16. Actually I think Egypt had a lot to do with this, in addition to assurances from

the White House and SOS Clinton.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 05:53 PM

17. Yes, really. I don't know how Clinton pulled it off, but she got Egypt to broker one.

 

The whole region could have gone up in flames (like nukes) and we'd be forced to get involved. Whatever she did, it is amazing. I've been losing sleep over this. She's amazing.

On a side note, the House Republicans are going to look for the stain on her blue dress. That's what they do best.



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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:00 PM

18. This will tell us a lot about the fragile overnment of Egypt, also...

...Are they still a major player in that region??

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