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Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:31 PM

 

On Anonymous and conspiracy theories.

Recently the hacker group came out and claimed that they prevented Karl Rove from stealing the election in Ohio, basically out-hacking the hackers. Many here have disparaged the idea, and the group itself on a number of levels, labeling the claim as a conspiracy theory, as if that was the ultimate damnation of anything.

The thing is, conspiracies, in politics and elsewhere, happen all the time, and sometimes are prevented by the most fortuitous events. The Watergate break in was a conspiracy, one that was exposed by a guard who was in the wrong place at the right time, and Iran Contra was a conspiracy as well, and many, many more, in both the private and public sector.

Conspiracy theories arise when something doesn't add up, much like JFK's assassination. Sorry, but the Warren report, with the magic bullet, simply doesn't add up, and that has led to a raft of conspiracy theories, some more grounded in reality than others. Same with the events of 9/11 and so many other events.

Yes, it would be nice if conspiracy theories could put forward some convincing proof, and sometimes they do. But many times it is impossible, given the nature of the event, for any proof to be brought. Convincing proof about the JFK assassination could be presented if only we could examine JFK's brain, but sadly, that brain and the original X-rays disappeared at some point. Hell, we didn't know the full extent of the Lincoln assassination conspiracy until a hundred years after his death, due to records being lost, locked up or disappearing altogether. Yes, proof would be nice, but at times it takes years, decades for that proof to emerge.

I also understand that some folks are upset because they feel that if we believe what Anonymous says, it somehow takes away from the Obama campaign success. How so? It doesn't diminish those achievements, both in Ohio and elsewhere. If what Anonymous claims is indeed true, then all they did was to insure that all that effort in Ohio and across the country wasn't stolen out from under us. That doesn't diminish what the Obama campaign did, it simply let the entire world see what the campaign did, fairly and clearly.

Furthermore, what if it did go down like Anonymous claims. Yes, we need to see proof, and if we do, we shouldn't dismiss it. Rather, we should follow up on it with the full power of the law in order to punish those that did indeed try to steal the election, and more importantly, put protection in place so that it can't be stolen again. We've seen stolen elections before, and we need to use every resource we can, including a bunch of anarchist hackers named Anonymous, to make sure that they aren't stolen again.

So did Anonymous do what it claims, I don't know. If they did, props to them. If not, then shame on them for trying to steal credit. But the main thing is, let's not dismiss their claims out of hand as some crazy conspiracy theory, because guess what, conspiracies happen all the time. In fact, there could be on going down right now, we just don't know about it. That is the nature of conspiracies, they don't like the light of day, and they are mighty hard to ferret out.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:33 PM

1. At This Point, Sir, It Is Not Even Known 'Anonymous' Has Any Connection With This Claim

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:38 PM

4. It doesn't even matter.

The fact is, the claim itself is unbelievable and unprovable.
So, we're just going to go into the dryer cycle here at the DU, and spin this thing in circles and go nowhere with it while we blow a lot of hot air around on the forum.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:40 PM

7. That doesn't seem to stop indignant calls demanding Anonymous provide proof

It's like when Eastwood totally punked Romney and the Republicans at their own convention and gave himself plausible deniability by making himself look like an idiot.

Yes it makes us look stupid but it makes the other side look like the utter cretins they are.

Watching the junkyard dog tiptoeing around something they would normally be straining to rip to shreds is entertaining and enlightening to me.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:45 PM

8. Some part of the collective did release a video warning Rove that he was being watched, prior to the

 

election. And yes, as far as I can see from some of their public channels, the hive is essentially quiet about it at this point, which can also be taken as information in and of itself. Do not take lightly the gift, if it is there. If they have done this thing, it is of historic significance, the effect perhaps being at the level (and opposite) of what BushCo did to the country and world for eight years. It is of exceptional significance, if it is true.

It does not diminish the vote, or the efforts of those who campaigned and undertook grass-roots activism for the vote. What it would be, if it is, is a levelling of the playing field, a banishing of bullies, so that what was meant to be (the will of the people), =could= be. It in fact would be another manifestation of the will of the people to be free, to have fairness, to be able to be heard and to self-determine. To have done something at this level and to not brag about it is high level. It would be freaking legendary, truly.

Thank you Anonymous, whether or not this is indeed the case.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:35 PM

2. Where does acceptance or non-acceptance of an anonymous email lead us?

It can't be verified so therefore it can serve as no useful pretext for further action.

We are pretty much all agreed that the election process can be improved. Does this email contribute anything to this? I don't see that it does.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:36 PM

3. All we know is some guy in a mask made outlandish claims on the Internet.

In the case of ORCA being a Karl Rove vote stealing tool, completely incorrect claims.

Orly Taitz had more persuasive evidence.

It hasn't even been established that a hacker group was involved, as opposed to some bored troll who bought a mask.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:38 PM

5. Would it be a surprise if it happened precisely as is claimed? No.

We all are aware that Bush stole both elections; he was installed during 2000, and the vote was stolen in 2004. It's quite clear that this is the case; why would anyone be surprised?

Mind, I'm inclined to believe this, since the disappointment of Mitt and Karl Rove and Allen West was simply too far out there if they hadn't paid to 'win' the election. It was a bit dumb to try the same schtick as was used in 2004, but this lot feel they are above the law and impervious to things like Anonymous.

And yes, conspiracies are far more common than the US population will admit.

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Response to PDJane (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:55 PM

9. I totally agree with your assessment, and in light of what Thom Hartmann had to say

 

on his video it is a very clear possibility that it did happen.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:39 PM

6. I totally agree and applaud your stand, TY

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:03 PM

10. Sometimes it takes time...

Like the two Thom Hartmann reports now linked on DU.

He stated Eisenhower was the last honorable (non-scandalous) Republican president and why (hint: he supported a 91% top marginal income tax rate on the rich and approved of New Deal programs like Social Security).

However, regarding the ensuing GOP presidents:

Nixon--made a deal with S. Vietnam to reject the cease-fire LBJ was close to completing. Hold out, he told them, and we'll give you a better deal when Nixon is in the White House. CIA covertly recorded his campaign officials speaking with the S. Vietnam president. However, LBJ tapes in which he discusses Nixon's treason with Sen. Dirkson (R) weren't released until just two years ago.

Reagan--turns out the whole Iran-Contra deal was just that: hold on to the hostages until after the election and Reagan will supply Iran with American weaponry. The deal was done and weapons were sent to Iran via Israel. Sort makes the current "Israel wants to bomb Iran" argument laughable. But again, the real facts didn't come out until much later.

Bushes--not much on Poppy, but Baby Bush benefited form election fraud in both 2000 and 2004. Evidence supports this with the GOP's failed attempt in 2012.

In short, since 1968, Republicans have had to use treasonous tactics to secure the White House.

So, in short, all GOP presidents after Eisenhower are traitors. But it took some time to establish that.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:25 PM

11. Without addressing Anonymous

I found this Salon article "Is the GOP stealing Ohio" to be interesting reading.

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/05/ohio_republicans_sneak_risky_software_onto_voting_machines/


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