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Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:09 AM

 

“We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages,"

That is the sentiment of Israeli Deputy Prime Minister (Shas) Eli Yishai, as expressed over the weekend in both Haaretz and Yeshiva World News. Sadly, it also seems to be a sentiment shared by rest of the Israeli leadership as well, as destruction continues to rain down upon Gaza, and the civilian death toll continues to rise in an expanding Israeli military operation.

Sadly, we are once again being treated to a spectacle of Israeli aggression and overreaction. In fact, given that this statement comes on the heels of the assassination of Ahmed Jabari, who had received a draft truce agreement just hours before he was killed, one has to wonder if Israel wants peace at all.

In fact, judging by these actions, one quickly comes to the uncomfortable conclusion that Israel's solution to this situation is indeed to lay waste to the land of Gaza and call it peace.

Worse, our current administration, while not supporting Israel materially(at least not yet), is not, or cannot rein in Israel. Expressing support for Israel's right to "defend" itself, Obama seems blind to the fact that this current Israeli operation is not a defense operation, but one that could easily blow up into genocide at worst, but certainly unnecessary and unwarranted aggression and deaths at best.

The policy of the US has been, for a long, long time, the unquestioning support of Israel, right or wrong. It is this sort of blanket support that has turned populations, even entire nations, against us. It is time that we rethought that blanket support, step in and stop this Israeli aggression, and bring about real, substantial talks that will solve these problems. In order to do so, to be an honest player in the region, we have to be willing to give up our unstinting support for Israel and recognize that Israel is now the main motivational force behind the violence that we see in the region.

If we don't, we could see the region blowing up into an all encompassing war, one that will surely blow back on us, with deadly results.

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Arrow 29 replies Author Time Post
Reply “We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages," (Original post)
MadHound Nov 2012 OP
MadHound Nov 2012 #1
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #2
MadHound Nov 2012 #3
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #4
MadHound Nov 2012 #5
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #6
MadHound Nov 2012 #7
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #12
MadHound Nov 2012 #24
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #28
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #17
MadHound Nov 2012 #25
ellisonz Nov 2012 #20
MadHound Nov 2012 #26
ellisonz Nov 2012 #27
Report1212 Nov 2012 #11
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #13
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #8
Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2012 #9
coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #16
Marr Nov 2012 #10
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #14
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #15
Comrade Grumpy Nov 2012 #18
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #19
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #21
lovebird07 Nov 2012 #22
MisterP Nov 2012 #23
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #29

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:58 AM

1. kick n/t

 

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:17 PM

2. (ahem) Gaza still IS in the middle ages.

 

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:20 PM

3. Spoken like one who has never been there,

 

Or known anybody from the region.

Yes, there is much devastation, destruction, and even lack of modern facilities. That's because their Israeli neighbor continues to bomb, bulldoze and settle the land at a rate faster than the Gaza population can recover.

But keep making such jokes, all it does is show off your ignorance.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:35 PM

4. No, I haven't been there, but they've been stuck in the middle ages and can't get out.

 

We want to put a fucking wall up on the Mexican border. Gaza already has one. They have to fend for themselves and are way outgunned by Israel. What the hell are they going to do? I want this insanity to stop, but the people living in the strip are stuck. Israel's wall on one side, Egypt on another, and water on the only other front. They're prisoners. I can understand why they're angry, but lobbing missiles all over the place is insanity. And yes, they're still in the middle ages. Do you see a way for them to change that?

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:21 PM

5. Umm, who put up that wall?

 

Oh, yeah, that's right, Israel. In fact Israel is pretty much responsible for the hell hole conditions in Gaza period.

As far as being stuck in the middle ages, how so? In mentality, culturally, how, exactly, are they stuck in the middle ages?

As far as lobbing missiles, well, what would you suggest that a people do after sixty odd years of being beaten down, lob flowers?

This is where the US needs to step in and broker a deal, show real leadership. Instead, this administration is letting the Israelis continue to kill and maim innocent people. Do you think that's right, that it is just?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:29 PM

6. Actually, the US and Britain are responsible for that wall. We plopped down a new country...

 

... in a region where it wasn't welcome. You had to have seen the trouble brewing, even back then. As for intervention, I don't think we can. It would just widen the conflict. Ironically, Egypt has the upper hand here in terms of brokering an end to the current affair.

And no, I don't think any of it is just on either side. It's just royally fucked up and needs to stop. That's why I said Israel wants Hamas to remain in control. They got punched in the face, but they're better than the alternatives. Everyone just needs to chill out now. Fortunately the casualties have been low, but they'll grow with time. Stop it and stop it now. Egypt has the best chance of achieving that. I hope they can.

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:36 PM

7. Frankly I think that the US is the only one who can successfully intervene,

 

Egypt might be able to influence Hamas, but that influence won't last long if Israel continues to pummel Gaza.

The only country that can rein in Israel is the US, and we'd better do it damn quick or the entire Mid East is going to erupt.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:54 PM

12. Egypt is the only one. If Hamas doesn't stop lobbing random missiles into Israel,...

 

... then Israel will invade on the ground. Hamas has the control here and Egypt is the only one they'll listen to. Frankly, I'm surprised Israel waited as long as they did before retaliating. Hamas was begging for a response (for reasons beyond comprehension). They got one. Egypt has to clamp down on them. If we get involved, all hell will break loose.

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:04 PM

24. Then without us, who will rein in Israel?

 

Hamas isn't the sole one to blame here, not by a long shot. Israel has been pursuing policies designed to undermine any sort of peaceful resolution, what with its ongoing settlement policy and, as you mentioned, the wall, which is effectively blocking off Gaza.

If Egypt reins in Hamas, that allows Israel to continue what it is doing unfettered. The only way for a peaceful resolution is for both Hamas and Israel to be brought under control, and the US is the only country that can control Israel. The big question is will the US actually do so?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #24)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 09:53 AM

28. Don't get your hopes up. It was a mess waiting to happen from day one.

 

As for "who will rein", and with an unavoidable pun, God only knows what will happen. So far it seems all we've done is send Clinton to Egypt, although Obama did put in a couple of "chill the fuck out" calls. It's bad enough in the current state but it could mean a full regional blow-out like we've never seen before. I fear looking at the front page of the paper each morning.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:07 PM

17. What exactly can and should the US do? Hamas certainly has some grievances like economics,

and travel freedom, but Hamas can end this by stopping missile attacks on Israel. Once the missiles stop, the US will have a better chance of standing Israel down and getting the two sides to bargain on the real issues like land, travel freedom and economies.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:08 PM

25. Umm, it was those economic, travel, and settlement problems

 

That led Hamas to start these missile attacks, nothing else they were doing this side of peace was making an impression on the Israeli government. So, if they stop the missiles, what is to stop Israel from continuing to put the screws to Gaza?

Only the US. But we are going to have to make it clear that our support for Israel is not unconditional. Israel is going to have to do certain things in order to keep our support. Like stopping their settlement program, which is designed to undermine any sort of two state solution. Stop the economic handcuffing of Gaza is another good one.

Both Israel and Hamas have to give on this one, it can't continue to be a one way Israeli street.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:16 PM

20. "In fact Israel is pretty much responsible for the hell hole conditions in Gaza period."

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:12 PM

26. What is that supposed to convince me about?

 

That Israel likes to meddle in the internal politics of Gaza, arming one side over the other?

The fact is, Israel's interference and degradation of the Palestinian people goes back for decades.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:34 PM

27. That Hamas has zero respect for internal political opposition.

There's a reason there's no war in the West Bank. Fatah does not want an endless war, while Hamas is determined to create such horror.



That Israel likes to meddle in the internal politics of Gaza, arming one side over the other?


The internal politics of Gaza are fucked, while the internal politics of the West Bank has produced peace. When you give extremist the keys to the city, the do extreme things. It's not rocket science, it's basic political arithmetic.



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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:42 PM

11. Actually, the Middle Ages was a time when

The middle east was rapidly advancing in science, technology, culture, literature, mathematics...and Europe and the West were way behind.

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Response to Report1212 (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:55 PM

13. Good point, and quite true.

 

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:39 PM

8. Israel wants the Palestines to go away, Palestine wants Israel to go away

Both sides need to grow the fuck up, put on their big kids pants and sit down and talk this shit out and don't stop talking until they come up with a solution.

If I were ruler of the planet I would take the leaders of both governments, drop them on a deserted island and not let them leave until their countries were at peace with one another.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:41 PM

9. The Americans tried to "blow Vietnam back to the middle ages". Didn't work out too well.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:06 PM

16. Actually, Air Force General Curtis Lemay wanted to blow Vietnam "back to the

 

Stone Ages". Given that Vietnam at the time was a largely agrarian peasant society, blowing it back to the middle ages' would have been somewhat redundant.

Other than that, I agree with your assessment of the outcome of said efforts. A rag-tag body of irregulars fought the world's strongest military superpower to a stalemate. (That's a defeat when you're the superpower.)

Israel would do well to take heed. It obviously hasn't learned a thing from its most recent invasion of Lebanon.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:41 PM

10. Hmm. I wouldn't think Israel would want any sort of repeat of the Middle Ages.

The last time a westerners made a beachhead in the Holy Land, it didn't end so well.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:59 PM

14. An election is coming up in Israel. Unfortunately, no one on the Israeli side can be viewed as weak.

Including Barak and Livni, who I view as reasonably sane persons.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:04 PM

15. The Shas party are the Jewish Taliban! An extremist ultra orthodox party.

They want Israel to be operated under Jewish religious law and to impose the equivalent of Sharia/Taliban on the state of Israel.

Its pretty unfair to judge Israel by the standards of this whackjob. It would be like judging all Americans by the statements of Pat Robertson.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:12 PM

18. Is Shas not part of the Israeli government?

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:14 PM

19. David "F--king Duke" Was Technically Part Of The U.S. Government, Not That Long Ago/nt

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:18 PM

21. Tea Party Rethugs are part of our government. So are LaRouchies.

That doesn't mean they are representative of the vast majority of Americans.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:28 PM

22. "not supporting Israel materially(at least not yet)"

We currently give 3 billions $ a year to Israel mostly in the form of military aid. So we're pretty much involved already. Israel has the right to defend itself, but not with the u.s taxpayer money. We should cut immediately the foreign aid to Israel and the Palestinian altogether and stay out of this conflict.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:52 PM

23. this might blow back for him, since the Middle Ages came before 1947

in the current governing dialogue, there can be no acknowledgement of the existence of any years in Asia before 1947

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:59 AM

29. K&R. n/t

 

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