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Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:16 AM

How do you guys feel about David Frum?

I thoroughly enjoyed his article in Newsweek about why the Republicans lost. What's interesting about Frum is that most of his Republican colleagues have turned their backs on him in favor of Tea Party rage and paranoia; they're so busy placing the blame on scapegoats and imaginary boogeymen, but in reality just can't stomach the fact that they lost because (duh) their current strategy is a losing one. He's one of the few commentators I've seen on the right who (correctly) believe that:

1) Obama's victory wasn't even close, and not attributable to Sandy or fraud or "Gifts" or some other bullshit.

2) Today's GOP is anti-science, anti-diversity, and anti-reasonableness. "Fox Nation" represents a misleadingly small sector of the population, and a quick-fix solution like shameless pandering to Hispanics won't change a thing.

3) If Republicans continue on their current path, they will lose again and again until they go extinct, but not before doing irreparable harm to their followers.

My own personal feeling is that we need more Republicans like David Frum out there to bring sanity to the GOP--for the safety of the entire nation. Yes, it's fun to laugh at their ruin, but the more they spin out of control, the more whackjobs they produce. And the more racist, classist, right wing lunatics there are out there, the more dangerous this country gets for all of us.

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Reply How do you guys feel about David Frum? (Original post)
Bicoastal Nov 2012 OP
flowomo Nov 2012 #1
panAmerican Nov 2012 #2
Frustratedlady Nov 2012 #3
kentuck Nov 2012 #4
JHB Nov 2012 #5
Comrade_McKenzie Nov 2012 #6
Guy Whitey Corngood Nov 2012 #7
sammytko Nov 2012 #9
Guy Whitey Corngood Nov 2012 #33
Frances Nov 2012 #8
laundry_queen Nov 2012 #14
TheKentuckian Nov 2012 #22
ancianita Nov 2012 #10
Cracklin Charlie Nov 2012 #11
oswaldactedalone Nov 2012 #12
Spazito Nov 2012 #13
uponit7771 Nov 2012 #16
Spazito Nov 2012 #18
uponit7771 Nov 2012 #15
Report1212 Nov 2012 #17
Brother Buzz Nov 2012 #19
Warpy Nov 2012 #20
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #24
mstinamotorcity2 Nov 2012 #21
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #23
applegrove Nov 2012 #25
elleng Nov 2012 #26
HowHasItComeToThis Nov 2012 #27
larocks4552s Nov 2012 #28
BeyondGeography Nov 2012 #29
AnnaLee Nov 2012 #30
gravity Nov 2012 #31
DJ13 Nov 2012 #32
Skidmore Nov 2012 #34
Enrique Nov 2012 #35
butterfly77 Nov 2012 #36
Major Hogwash Nov 2012 #37

Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:19 AM

1. I appreciated his comments...

on the right-wing media stars who "fleeced, exploited and lied” to their Republican listeners, and the other remarks you mention.

But I was surprised at how humorless he was when he appeared on Bill Maher's show the other night.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:20 AM

2. I like Frum

FrumForum used to be one of my daily reads. While I may have disagreed with some of the points made by his bloggers from time to time, it was a refreshing place to go for honest discussion of the issues, without demonization of people with whom you disagreed.

Having been born and lived the first 12 years of my life under a dictatorship, I appreciate dissent and have respect for the idea of opposing viewpoints being examined, challenged and evaluated without the fear of reprisals.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:23 AM

3. I like him most of the time, but he's turned me off in the past.

Silly, but I can't remember what he wrote about or said during an interview that made me mad. I listen to him when he's favoring our side, but turn him off when he isn't. Not very sensible, is it? I should realize that we aren't going to agree all the time and give him a listen.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:25 AM

4. He's a sane person caught in a Republican trap...

There is no escape for him.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:35 AM

5. Frum's the sane part of the opposition, but that's a relative thing...

I appreciate his critiques of the current state of the Republican Party, but there are two things he fails to acknowledge:

1) Up until about 2009, when he began denouncing birtherism and the wide selection of anti-Obama conspiracy theories, he was part of the Republican leadership that was perfectly happy to use such nuttiness for their own gain. The people who bought into birthierism also bought into "911/Saddam".

2) For most of his lifetime, the Republican Party has actively courted the very people he now blames for its problems. Nixon had the Southern Strategy, Reagan banged the drum against welfare queens and the Evil Empire, the eight-year effort to put Bill Clinton's head on a pike, the weaponization of vitriol by Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh & the the people who learned from them, etc. etc. etc.

So I'm torn between him as the relatively-level-headed guy on that side, and my impulse that someone who's been flat-out wrong for 40 years and suddenly notices bad outcomes that were obvious and inevitable should really just shut up.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:39 AM

6. He's a smug piece of shit.

 

I saw him defend Walmart on Chris Hayes' show yesterday, with two employees sitting right there.

The way he looked at the latino warehouse worker was one of disgust.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:44 AM

7. For all the "can't we all get along" shtick he's adopted the last few years. I don't think he's

ever taken responsibility for his and his boss' actions. Which ultimately led the Repukes down the path they find themselves in. Turns out demonising people for not going along with insane invasions and muslim fear mongering not such a good idea after all. It might help you in the short run but in the end it just pollutes the discourse and poisons people's minds.

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:49 AM

9. Yep - wasn't he the one that coined the phrase "Axis of Evil"?

Do not trust him at all!

He is just looking out for number one. He sees what the future has in store and he doesn't want to be left out.

He wants to be thought of as the "sane" Republican.

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Response to sammytko (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:58 PM

33. Exactly my point. He also wrote some bullshit book with none other than Richard Perle if

I remember correctly about the scary "mooslims". Not exactly the most conciliatory right winger out there.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:46 AM

8. I saw him for a few minutes yesterday

He was on a panel with Walmart workers. I watched his face while a warehouse worker told about the lack of water in a warehouse where there was only a little bit of dirty water for the men and women to drink, even though the work causes the workers to sweat a lot.

Frum looked genuinely surprised.

I think most Republicans don't understand what so many Americans are facing today.

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Response to Frances (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:41 AM

14. Frum likely looked surprised because he's a Canadian

and we have things like labour laws. In Canada, many people think the US is like us, only bigger (and without healthcare). Most have no idea the lack of labour laws in the US. Labour laws here are pretty strict in comparison.

As for what I think of Frum - he's an opportunistic parasite that was happy to coin the term 'Axis of Evil' and let W lie about 9/11, but suddenly has an epiphany when the birthers come out? C'mon David. He'd have to apologize for the Bush shit first before I took him seriously. That said, it's good to have one voice of relative reason in the Republican party. Not sure how much good it will do - Frum was thrown under the bus by the GOP after the last election with his 'reasonable' comments.

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Response to Frances (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:59 PM

22. I don't know why not, all is going according to the plans they have relentlessly pursued

for over a generation.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:02 AM

10. He's not going away. WE need him to influence clearer bipartisan thinking in The House.

I'd prefer to think of Frum as a good influence on the Republican House of Reps. In light of the herd of cats now making up the Republican House, the only way Frum can help us and the country at large -- and not just the Republican Party -- is to convince some Republicans to 'go red dog' and see the benefits to be gained in bipartisan voting (to take back to their home district in the next cycle) for most of the Democrats' legislation on domestic and military spending. Then I could appreciate him.

Frum's punditry would serve to draw out and challenge the Democratic Party's better ideas. Not that I don't think Democrats can withstand good, fact-based, clear-headed discourse; we can. But he and this discussion shouldn't distract from the tougher work of governance and oversight of Wall St.

I'd like his input in developing a vision of an energy independent future for this country, and in restructuring the US military away from internal dominionism and more toward more 'peace and protection' mission training.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:05 AM

11. I think he always looks like he is about to cry.

It makes me sad to watch him on television.

He seems like a fairly rational person, though, for a Republican.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:05 AM

12. I appreciated him

codifying the "conservative entertainment complex" for us. It took someone from the right to point out the destructive nature of the politics of hate, as blared from it's entertainment complex, and how it's wrecking the right's long-term prospects.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:20 AM

13. The bottom line is Frum supports the egregious policies of the repubs...

that has not changed. He isn't an extremist of the teabagger type but that's about it. Up until he was turfed from the bush regime admin he was quite happy with what was happening. He IS smart, I will give him that. He needed a way to stay relevant so he now has made himself over to appear 'moderate' and a critic of the republican party while still supporting the policies that Romney/Ryan espoused.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:45 AM

16. +1! He came up with the term Conservative Entertainment Complex....that's the only real thing he's

...done to progress the conversation

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:39 PM

18. Yep, he is good at coming up with catch phrases...

"Axis of Evil", "Conservative Entertainment Complex" but that's about all he is good at and he isn't even very original at that given he just used the same phraseology as "Military Industrial Complex". Not very original at all, imo.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:44 AM

15. He's ANOTHER opportunistic republican, worries about his self too much and the only reason

...he wants this kind of sanity discussion is to get the people who are moderate like him back into the GOP forefront

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:22 PM

17. He was one of the main pushers for the Iraq war

And watch him on Hayes show. He hates Palestinians and he crapped on the Wal-Mart worker strike.

Yes he's less crass than other Republicans, but he's still horrible.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:00 PM

19. David Frum is a dyed-in-the-wool Neocon

He champions the Neocon wing of the republican party at every turn with his sights on the 2016 election. To that end, he is tasked to toss the teabaggers onto the political dung heap. Oh, he has fairly good hindsight, too.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:18 PM

20. He's proof that not all conservatives are stupid. Some are just wrong.

Unfortunately, the big tent party has let in the whole circus of nutcases with axes to grind and none of them is in a listening mood. While he's giving a very sage analysis, only the original party stalwarts might realize he's right, but they lost control of that party during the Reagan years, although they don't yet realize it.

The bosses managed to force Romney on a bunch of howling crazies who wanted Santorum or Paul and that's one point Frum is missing: they ran roughshod over all the other delegates the first day of the convention and told them their job was to sit down and do as they were told. It's the reason the RNC was the most dispirited exercise in futility I've ever seen.

Those resentments are going to be curdling over the next three years and what they produce is likely to be chaos during the next primary season. That's why the party bosses are going to continue to play to the craziest parts of a party gone mad; not to do so will rip the party completely apart.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:24 PM

24. Sage analysis. In a nutshell, the modern republican party is fucked.

If the party turn back to sanity and the middle, it will lose it's most strident and loyal group of voters, a group that makes up more than 50% of it's voting block in general elections, Senate elections and House elections. If it continues to cater to the strident elements, the 51+ percent that President Obama got in the 2012 election continues to grow, along with the number of states that turn blue. The southern strategy and genuflecting to the religious right has gotten the republican party into a bind.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:47 PM

21. excuse Me are we talking about David Frum???

Give me a cause I need to be buzzing to believe this crap!!! He is just speaking from the position of having got your ass whipped!!! but if you believe that Bulls--t they are running now you need a The republicans are still talking SMACK!!!! Frum really only sees what was apparent to everyone. That old white men are not the prevailing factor in this country anymore. No offense to sane old white men who respect the citizens of all cultural backgrounds in this country. Some of us will never be fooled by any republican or the Rubio's or Rice's they put in front of us. And the truth be told I just want them banished to the wilderness for forty years. They will not be forgiven by me. They tried to destroy America!!!!! They chose a man that they knew could hold a pen and do what they said. I got enough of that from Dubya/Shooter. He was a LIAR and I believe a THIEF. He is the Godfather of Out-sourcing. He is a racist. And with all of those things, his religious tenements are questionable. I am so angry with republicans because they wanted to sacrifice our country and its citizens for their own warped agenda. that in my opinion is something that won't be forgiven in two weeks, SORRY won't do it!!!!! They did not stop hating me or people like me in two weeks time. Not possible with the level of ignorance and disdain I saw coming from their miserable asses. And since the other bulls--t didn't work they are sending Bobby Gindal???

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:14 PM

23. Frum, Meghan McCain, John Huntsman, Abby Huntsman, Steve Schultz, Michael Steele, to name

a few, are people without a party. They won't be able to change the republican party and pull it back to sanity, there are too few of them. A lot of sane republicans left the party a long time ago and are now either democrats or independents. My guess is that independent is where the people mentioned above are headed. They are too conservative for me to feel comfortable with them being democrats. Meghan McCain and Abby Huntsman may live long enough to see their group merge with the conservative wing of the democratic party to form a bona-fide second political party that can win national elections again, both women are still early in their twenties.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:26 PM

25. His mom, Barbara, was Canada's foremost interviewing journalist

in the 70s and 80. She was on CBC radio then CBC tv. I grew up on her. Miss her. I was shocked when it came out after her death she was a conservative. We all were. He's certainly drunk more of the American conservative kool-aid than she ever did. I think he has freed himself up by not towing the party line. Sometimes he sounds almost sane.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:28 PM

26. Smart guy, willing to speak truth to 'power,' appreciate him.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:30 PM

27. NOT TO BE TRUSTED

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:31 PM

28. I don't much care for his politics

 

But his Newsweek article was very informative.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:33 PM

29. Smart, gutsy for the most part; often fails to get to the heart of the matter

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Always felt that being Canadian is a mixed blessing for what he is trying to accomplish. He has a certain independence, but I don't think he gets the depth of the crazy in his own movement. The basic problem the GOP has is they've created a monster in the Christian right, which is not naturally political. A lot of the over-the-top sexual politics that Frum complains about is designed to drive turnout. The second they move to the center, they start losing numbers. Basically, they have to say goodbye to a good chunk of their existing base and rebuild if they ever want to modernize. Few righty pundits, including Frum, go there.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:34 PM

30. I can do without him. nm.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:51 PM

31. A rare sane Republican

I enjoy Frum's columns because he isn't afraid to diverge from the Republican orthodoxy and is able to compromise with ideas from the Democratic party. I don't always agree with him, but I respect his opinion.

The only thing I don't understand is why he hasn't jumped the sinking Republican ship yet.

Maybe he hopes that he will swing his party towards the center, but I think his policy positions align closer to moderate Democrats than the current Republican party.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:52 PM

32. A little chewy, but okay with ketchup

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:05 PM

34. Mr. Slick. Still nursing the embers of neocon doctrine.

He's just savvy enough to know it is time to talk out of the other side of his mouth. Listen closely to what he says, particularly about foreign policy. Just because he gives a nod to science, diversity and reason does not mean that he's foresaken the notions of exceptionalism and empire that drive that group. We actually need more Republicans like Susan Eisenhower and Colin Powell's aide (can't remember the guy's name).

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:21 PM

35. Frum is to be used for entertainment purposes only

it is enjoyable to hear an elite conservative trash the non-elites.

But he is dishonest and cynical in the same way David Brooks is. I have heard each of them write flat-out falsehoods to support their conservative policies. And there is a reason we all like what he writes, and like what Brooks writes: we are the targets of their persuasive efforts.

Someone above asked why they haven't ditched the GOP. That's a very good question, if they believe what they are saying about the GOP, why are they still among them. What could a "reasonable republican" have against Obama that they would endorse Romney over Obama (which both Frum and Brooks did).

And as I recall, they both used the same cynical rationale for endorsing Mitt: they said that if Mitt were elected, the gridlock would go away, that if Obama were re-elected the GOP would bring down the country with their obstructionism. Well how reasonable is that? OK, NYT readers, what you have to do is hand the country over to the extremist hostage-takers. Both of them said that!

Bottom line is, I like reading them trash the troglodytes, but don't be fooled, when it comes down to it, they are on the side of the trogs.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:53 PM

36. Although,I do agree with him in his commentary..

about repugs on morning joe, he nothing more than another sneaky,lying ass republiCON.

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Response to Bicoastal (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:22 PM

37. Have you ever went sledding with a round sled, and halfway down the hill the sled . .

. . suddenly turns, and spins you around the other way, with you facing up the hill, as you go sliding down the hill backwards, unable to see where you are going?

I imagine that is how Frum feels about right now.

The whole GOP party has turned their backs on him, like you mentioned.
And he is the only sane voluntary resident in the asylum, yet all the doctors agree with the other patients . . they need to gather more evidence of crazy stuff happening, that makes no sense to anyone whatsoever, before it will be necessary for them to administer the treatment needed to make everyone act normal again.

Until then, it's party time!!
Woo-hoo!!
Par-tee!
Tea Par-tee!!

Because the Tea Party inmates are totally content and happy to drive the rest of the country over the fiscal cliff with them at the wheel, and then blame it on President Obama . . simply because he is black.

Because we all know how well that worked to get Romney elected earlier this month, right?
Well, let's try the same thing that didn't work again, and see if it works this time.
And if it doesn't work the next time, then by golly, we'll try to do it again.
And again.
And again.

Because everyone knows that blaming everything on the black man in the White House is a really, good, totally solid, well-designed, intelligent, well-thought out argument, speaking from a purely political point of view, that is, right?

Riiiigghhtt!

I feel sorry for Frum.
2 more years of Tea Party madness is going to drive him over to join the Democrats.

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