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Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:05 PM

 

Who Started Gaza Conflict? Well, the U.S. Says…

Nice article summarizing how it is not clear who started the recent conflict in Israel/Gaza, although the media rushes to point out what the USA says: That the Palestinians started it.

http://www.fair.org/blog/#post-22840

43 replies, 2906 views

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Reply Who Started Gaza Conflict? Well, the U.S. Says… (Original post)
Welcome_hubby Nov 2012 OP
Dubster Nov 2012 #1
former-republican Nov 2012 #13
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #2
Fawke Em Nov 2012 #4
Blue_In_AK Nov 2012 #5
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #6
ldf Nov 2012 #8
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #11
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #16
ProfessionalLeftist Nov 2012 #3
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #9
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #12
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #20
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #40
former-republican Nov 2012 #7
Blue_In_AK Nov 2012 #10
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #15
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #29
vaberella Nov 2012 #22
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #14
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #17
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #18
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #19
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #21
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #24
WorseBeforeBetter Nov 2012 #27
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #31
WorseBeforeBetter Nov 2012 #33
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #32
RobertEarl Nov 2012 #23
MrMickeysMom Nov 2012 #25
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #35
MrMickeysMom Nov 2012 #36
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #41
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #28
sabrina 1 Nov 2012 #30
RobertEarl Nov 2012 #34
former-republican Nov 2012 #37
Sadiedog Nov 2012 #26
The Straight Story Nov 2012 #38
dsc Nov 2012 #39
Tom Ripley Nov 2012 #42
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #43

Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:08 PM

1. Spam deleted by gkhouston (MIR Team)

 

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Response to Dubster (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:55 PM

13. It's all about Iran

 

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Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:09 PM

2. Of course the Palestinians started it

Squatting on that Israeli land for two millennia, the original owners are rightly pissed off and demanding back rent.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:16 PM

4. Wait a sec...

When Moses brought the Jews into Israel, weren't the Palestinians already there?

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:19 PM

5. That's the way I remember it.

Israelites have been invading Palestine for thousands of years.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:24 PM

6. God gave the Israelis the deed to that land

God's word trumps everything.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:31 PM

8. well, there you have it....

GOD = TRUMP

who knew...?



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Response to ldf (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:44 PM

11. Well, the hair is undeniably miraculous

The way he manages to keep a poisonous caterpillar on his head all the time without succumbing is clearly a miracle.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:55 PM

16. I correct you, sir: Mohammed gave it to the Palestinians!

Allah's word trumps everything.

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Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:16 PM

3. Whoever started it....(warning GRAPHIC)

. . . this child knows nothing of adult conflicts. The height of immorality is that (s)he and so many others have been made to suffer (or die) for them.



Baby charred by Israeli airstrike in Gaza earlier today.

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Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:31 PM

9. My God forgive us!!!

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:50 PM

12. Pictures like that show that..

clearly there is no almighty God, for if there were he would be a sadistic bastard who enjoys watching babies fry while his followers fight over who he loves more.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:58 PM

20. Have you ever thought of the possibility that


if there were an almighty God...

s/he may very well be a sadistic bastard who enjoys watching humanity kill itself.


Perhaps God is inherently evil and created the illusion of good to torment the world.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:37 AM

40. !!!

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Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:26 PM

7. Who started it?

 

The U.S and the Brits mostly

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Response to former-republican (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:37 PM

10. +1

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Response to former-republican (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:59 PM

15. We're talking about THIS current violent conflict. Not what started decades or a century ago....

or legal positions or stolen land.

Who started THIS spate of violence?

The Palestinians did.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:44 PM

29. Lebanon, dead innocent children. Gaza, peace activists.

Do you think a mother forgets when her child is killed by an invading army even after a couple of years?

Focusing on this one incident is disingenuous and an attempt to cover for all the dead Palestinians and Lebanese children whose loved ones will neve forget. What would YOU do if it happened to you?

Bibi wants so badly to force Obama's hand into a war with Iran. This whole thing is so transparent, but it's likely to backfire.

If Netanyahu and his neocon buddies want a war with Iran, let them have it, but leave OUR military out of it. I hope Obama refuses to be forced into any such disaster.

And that is why Bibi tried so hard to influence US elections, to install a puppet in the WH. Frankly for many of Americans, it was Bibi's attempted interference in US elections that made it clear, Romney was not an option.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:13 PM

22. The Brits started it...the US continued exacerbated it. n/t

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Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:56 PM

14. We're not talking about centuries ago. We're talking about THIS conflict. I'll ask what Judge Judy

would ask:

For this conflict....never mind last month's conflict, or three years ago when you got into a brawl....but this time, who hit who first? Who struck the first blow or put his hands on the other first?

(It's usually here where one guy will say something like, "Well, he called my girlfriend a ....." but Judge Judy will stop him. That isn't what I asked! Sticks and stones. If he calls you a bad name, you get to call him a bad name. What I asked was....who hit who first?)

In this case, it's my understanding that the Palestinians started the violence by lobbing rockets into Israeli inhabited civilian areas, hurting families, and shooting a rocket into Jerusalem.

It's also my understanding that Israel didn't immediately strike back. But when they did, they got one of the Hamas leaders, and did some damage. IMO, they have a right to defend their country and citizens from attack.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:07 PM

17. Israel attacks the Palestinians every single day

A blockade is an act of war and Israel maintains a blockade against the Palestinians.

Israel acknowledges the state of war between them and the Palestinians every day the blockade is maintained.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:32 PM

18. You don't make a point when you try to say false things like that.

Israel does not commit violence on Palestinian civilians every day. That simply isn't true.

Nor is it true that Palestinians lob rockets at Israeli civilians every day.

But what makes me wonder is...why do the Palestinians keep lobbing rockets at Israel, knowing full well that they are messing with a giant who can do much more damage to them than vice versa? Why do the Palestinian militants live and hide among the population, knowing full well that that means civilians will be hurt and killed?

Never mind having justification for being ticked and for vengeance. That may or may not be. But as a common sense matter, why shoot your 22 at someone with an assault weapon? Makes no sense. There must be a long term game plan in such an illogical pattern of behavior. What could it be? To get Israel to start an all-out war against all arab nations? That hasn't worked in a century, so....

If I were a Palestinian, I'd work out a deal with Israel, get some territory (they have some, now), deal with things for a year or so w/o violence, to show Israel your terrorist days are over, so Israel will pull out, and you can all live and work together. You will own land, not as much as you think you're entitled to and which was given to you by Allah, but still....as a practical matter, your children can get educated, grow up and become prosperous, lead non-violent lives, have babies that don't get killed by drones and rockets. A normal life. That's because the Palestinians don't have the big cards to play.

Or are Palestinians just in their history or by nature a violent people? Seems in reading up on the conflict that no matter where the Palestinians have gone, even to other arab nations, they commit violence and are kicked out. ????

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:52 PM

19. If an entire people are acting in a way that makes no sense at all to you

Then did it ever occur to you that maybe you don't know the entire story?

One thing I particularly remember from school was how bullies would torment someone into striking back at them in just such a way that the official eye would land on the bullied person hitting out in fear, anger and frustration while the bully appeared the blameless victim.

The Palestinians have never gotten a break, they have been painted as the villains ever since I can remember and yet it wasn't Palestinians who made Europeans feel so guilty about the way Europe treated the Jews.

Even to the point where on DU you feel comfortable painting an entire people as "naturally violent".

Are there any other nationalities you feel that way about or is your bigotry confined to Palestinians?

Judging by the number of invasions launched in the last fifty or sixty years, Americans are the most naturally violent people on the planet.




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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:00 PM

21. +1k

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:31 PM

24. You didn't address my common sense points.

As a matter of common sense, if I want my children to grow up, get educated, and become prosperous and happy, I'd work toward that end. Lobbing rockets at a big country just seems illogical to me. No matter the background.

Ive read quite a bit on the background of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict(s), over the years. That's how I know that the Palestinians have had trouble in several places (Egypt comes to mind), where they have gotten into the terrorism thing with other arabs, and so been kicked out. I mean, when I thought about it, as I read these articles, I couldn't pinpoint any time or any place where the Palestinians lived in peace with others. Maybe the articles didn't include everything, I don't know. I was just asking the question.

Questions are necessary and good in any discussion. If you are offended by a question, maybe this issue is too close to your heart that you've lost objectivity.

As for Americans....my post didn't include any opinions on that. This is a common debate tactic used by a debater who isn't winning an argument. Except I'm not arguing. If you re-read my post, you'll see I'm merely asking questions, from an objective, common sense point of view.

Maybe if the Palestinians and Israel put women in control of things, these matters would get less violent and would get worked out eventually. The Palestinians used to have a woman leader, if I recall correctly, but she dropped out of the national scene, for some reason.

I also know that tens of thousands of Israelis have been killed by Palestinians over the years. It's not only that Israelis have killed Palestinians.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:42 PM

27. "the terrorism thing"?

How Palinesque of you.

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Response to WorseBeforeBetter (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:50 PM

31. Yes. Read up on it. They started their terrorism thing in Egypt, against other arabs.

And were appropriately kicked out. Then they went to Jordan (or maybe Jordan was first), where they started fighting with the arabs there.

I believe that's what I read.

As I read they lived here, then there, then here...nowhere did they live, that I saw, where the terrorist or militant faction didn't start killing people. It's possible that violence has become such a way of life for a faction of them, that that is how they live. That has become part of who they are.

No need to insult me personally. If you are unable to engage in discussion, you don't need to reply at all. That's better than showing that you are incapable of responding intelligently.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:54 PM

33. You -- someone who asks...

"Or are Palestinians just in their history or by nature a violent people?" -- are not to be taken seriously.

Not an insult... FACT.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:53 PM

32. As I said, did it ever occur to you that you don't know the whole story?

Your points are only "common sense" if the situation is what you believe it to be, if it is something other than what you believe it to be then your points are worthless.

I grew up in the Jim Crow South and I know very well how bigoted people think and how they act, Jim Crow would never have been overturned in the South without the federal government quite literally forcing it at the point of a gun.

There's no one in Israel to force that government to overturn their version of Jim Crow and the Palestinians are bitterly aware of this fact. They know their own situation and the mentality of their oppressors better than any outsider, perhaps their inexplicable intransigence does not look so illogical if you are standing in their shoes.

You were speaking of violent peoples, I just pointed out that standards can differ and by one standard your own people are the most violent on the planet.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:19 PM

23. I can't believe you wrote that bs

You are blaming the victims.

You are in effect saying that the people of Gaza should kiss the ass of their oppressors.

Know this: Gaza is a modern day concentration camp. An open air prison.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:33 PM

25. I'm with you, RoberEarl

It IS a modern day concentration camp. They ARE being oppressed.

One more thing - Why does the US provide the State of Israel all that money used on high tech weapons. The death toll says it all, while more and more in Palestine starve.

Maybe Karma will take care of Christian Judea's dogma.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:57 PM

35. If your neighbor were throwing bombs in your yard, what would you do?

Invite them to walk across your yard to get to the other side? Or would you put up a tall fence?

The leaders of Palestinian Gaza are Hamas, a terrorist organization.

They had a chance a decade ago, when Israel gave them Gaza (remember...Israel GAVE them Gaza), to show they could live side by side with Israel, peacefully.

Maybe what's happening now to Palestinians is karma.

My point being...whether an act seems justified or not, it's illogical and doesn't ever seemingly result in any goal. It's just terrorism. It doesn't help their children get educated, it doesn't help them get jobs or be productive. There doesn't seem to be a goal or even a point to it. It's sort of like a tantrum, a venting.

I understand not having access to places and such, but I also understand why Israel doesn't trust them. It's based on prior behavior, and for cryin' out loud, they elected terrorists into their government, which speaks volumes. Trust cannot develop where that situation exists.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #35)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:10 AM

36. We elected terrorists into our government, so where does that put our foreign affairs expertise?

Our CIA is little more than that.

I'm not going to change your mind on how some other country is propped up by the United States, or how the little piece of land given to Palestine is controlled, or why food and shelter is being manipulated beyond reason, or why those people who were GIVEN land, had their land taken back, as your mind has been made up on this.

I disagree with you wholehearted about this, Honeycombe8.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #35)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:09 AM

41. Do you honestly hold Isreal blameless in all this?

Do you acknowledge on any level that the treatment of Palestinians over the last 50+ years has been horrible? Do you acknowledge the land Israel has taken goes FAR beyond the borders decided on so many decades ago?

Seems to me there is quite alot of blame on both sides.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:44 PM

28. I did not blame anyone.

If you think that not blaming Israel is the same as blaming the Palestinians, you have lost your objectivity, like the other poster.

I was merely asking questions and giving an opinion based on the end result of things, a common sense approach. If I'm thinking about my children and family, I would work toward a happy, non-violent, educated, and productive and prosperous life for them. Terrorism doesn't fit into the means, seems to me, that would result in my goal.

I understand that Gaza is trapped. I also understand why....the Palestinians have a terrorism faction, and in fact, elected them to run Gaza a few years ago. They have historically killed and maimed Israeli citizens, as terrorists do. So it's really a question of which came first, the egg or the chicken. My point is....at this point, I would focus on my goal for my children and future generations. Terrorist activities against a state that is able to inflict much more damage than I could doesn't seem to be a good idea, to me. Even if some think it's justified. It just is illogical (not to mention violent).

If the Palestinians would quit terrorizing Israelis, then Israelis wouldn't have a need to keep tanks at the border of Gaza. This would require some period of time passing where Palestinians do not commit acts of terror, to show they can be trusted.

Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians a decade ago. I remember that. I also remember that Israeli citizens were against it, because of the close proximity to Israeli neighborhoods, they were afraid of terrorism. The Israelis leaders gave Gaza to them, anyway. And Palestinian militants committed terrorist acts against Israeli citizens, using the close proximity to lob their rockets. Now maybe Israel did something first. But when Palestinians cont'd terrorism from Gaza, it fed into the worst fears Israelis had regarding Palestinians. That assured that Israel would not be giving any more land to the Palestinians. That wouldn't make sense, since they cared about their Israeli citizens.

Both sides are wrong. Both sides are justified in certain things. Of course terrorism is NEVER justified. My point was, though, that using this as a starting point, I would go from here, and work toward a happy life for future generations. Which would involve no terrorism, working with Israel, etc., etc. For the benefit of Palestinian children. What they've been doing for decades isn't working, obviously.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:46 PM

30. I don't agree. It is not 'both sides are wrong'. It is a far right wing extremist

Israeli Government attempting to drag the US into more Neocon wars in the ME. The rest is just distraction. Hopefully, since Bibi failed to get Romney elected, this will fail miserably. But it is tragic that so many innocents will die as they play their games.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:54 PM

34. My Gawd, you are blaming the victims

You write:

I understand that Gaza is trapped.

Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians a decade ago

Terrorist activities against a state that is able to inflict much more damage than I could doesn't seem to be a good idea, to me.

That assured that Israel would not be giving any more land to the Palestinians


The Palestinians used to own all that land and Israel, with Britain and the US backing shoved them off. The Palestinians are victims of Israel. Israel has committed many terrorist acts against the Palestinians. They are victims of a state that is much more powerful. Now when they fight back you complain?!?

First Israel took their land and now you support Israel not giving them back the land they stole?!?

Gaza is a concentration camp that is ruled by Israel. The Palestinians are victims. And you are so one sided that your own words have you speaking with a forked tongue.

Utter bs, Honey. Just crap.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #28)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:36 AM

37. I am the first to admit I am a simple man so I don't want an intellectual discussion

 

on the conflict.

But what I do is try to put my self in someone else's shoes sometimes.
I try to read up on most of the conflict then I just think about how I would feel
If I was a Palestinian.

just saying ..... I'm not looking for an argument on the subject.


I just thought I would throw this out there.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:36 PM

26. Who are the violent ones?

Sorry but I think that being forced to live in such inhumane conditions as the Palestinians are living in would cause any people to react as they have! At one time in my life I thought that the Palestinians were to blame for all. I have since read and researched and no longer blame these poor suffering souls. What is happening to them is beyond cruel. I love the internet because you can find out more than you could ever find if all the information that you ever got came from MSM.

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Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:54 AM

39. If the Palestinians had played this smart they would have had the best President for them in ages

Bibi's swinish behavior in this election had to have pissed Obama immensely. Instead now they have put Obama in a position defending Israel and strengthened Bibi's hand. Total incompetence.

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Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:16 AM

42. How does one say lebensraum in Hebrew?

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Response to Welcome_hubby (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:19 AM

43. These threads on the current conflict have me shaking my head

The amount of posts holding one side or the other up as completely blameless.

Others holding the victims of the bombing as somehow to have deserved it.

And still others with views of history that seem to be ripped from some fictional blogpost.

People are dying. Children are dying. World Leaders are doing little to try and stop it.

Why are we not outraged that the world is not trying to force these two parties to come to the table? Why are we not outraged that our money is again being used to bomb innocent people?

What I find most disturbing of all is that I see long time posters, with high post counts, people that I genuinely like, speaking with cold, cold views, lacking compassion and empathy for the real people dying real and painful deaths. Are these the progressives I have come to like and admire over these 8 years? I look around and I wonder where the compassionate, loving, caring people have gone.

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