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Sun Nov 18, 2012, 03:54 PM

Should we have a discussion about adultery?

I'm posting this because of the recent salacious Broadwell/Petraeus affair, but also because I just saw the movie "The Descendants". (I know better late than never.)

The movie brings up some important points about adultery. 1) There are the betrayed spouses who don't have a clue. 2) There are children involved, who are innocent. 3) The fact that adulterous partners seldom end up with each other like Liz and Dick, or Angelina and Brad. Instead one is just having some illicit fun while the other wants to leave her spouse and family and break up her lover's family to be with him.

So it seems this affair between a married man with children, Petraeus, and a married woman with children, Broadwell, is following a familiar pattern although we don't know exactly the feelings that they had for each other, nor what their spouses or children knew.

My view is that adultery is usually bad behavior, however, I'm not so puritanical as to condemn everyone who has ever had an affair outside of marriage as evil sinners. My question is WHY do it? It's human to be attracted to a variety of potential mates, but our society pretty much defines the social contract of marriage as between two people and that those two people to be exclusive with each other. Yes, I know there are varieties of commitments that are mutually agreed upon, however, right now I'm talking about traditional marriage vows.

So it would seem to me that if you were committed to your marriage and you were tempted to stray, you would try to find out through therapy or talking to friends and even your spouse as to why you are feeling this way instead of just giving into your hormones talking. This would be especially important if there were children involved. Unless you are a scumbag, jumping in and out of the beds of others should be unacceptable behavior no matter how bad your marriage is.

My view is shouldn't you be taking steps to correct what is wrong in your marriage, maybe even ending it if that's where it leads to before you look around for a new mate? I just really find this game of musical beds disgusting when there are unsuspecting spouses and children involved. It's really immature behavior. I guess I'm particularly harrumphed about this because as a widow, in my seventies, I am getting hit on by other senior men who are married with children and grandchildren. I really can't believe it at my age, but I am truly disgusted.

To get back to the movie, apparently, the spouses and children all learn of the affair, one of the adulterers dies, they all have emotional periods of blow-ups and forgiveness and life goes on. But how does one go on after a life changing event like this? I really am curious what other DUers think about this

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Arrow 95 replies Author Time Post
Reply Should we have a discussion about adultery? (Original post)
Cleita Nov 2012 OP
JustAnotherGen Nov 2012 #1
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #8
JustAnotherGen Nov 2012 #71
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #73
JustAnotherGen Nov 2012 #82
lunatica Nov 2012 #89
Fumesucker Nov 2012 #90
lunatica Nov 2012 #92
seabeyond Nov 2012 #2
Cleita Nov 2012 #10
Aerows Nov 2012 #93
DURHAM D Nov 2012 #3
Cleita Nov 2012 #13
DURHAM D Nov 2012 #21
Cleita Nov 2012 #26
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #19
DURHAM D Nov 2012 #24
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #28
ibegurpard Nov 2012 #4
glowing Nov 2012 #39
elleng Nov 2012 #5
dchill Nov 2012 #12
A HERETIC I AM Nov 2012 #35
grantcart Nov 2012 #46
Aerows Nov 2012 #95
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #6
Cleita Nov 2012 #16
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #40
Cleita Nov 2012 #48
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #54
treestar Nov 2012 #80
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #83
treestar Nov 2012 #87
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #88
Drale Nov 2012 #7
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #47
Cleita Nov 2012 #51
Faygo Kid Nov 2012 #9
Cleita Nov 2012 #17
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #22
Cleita Nov 2012 #58
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #11
lalalu Nov 2012 #14
Cleita Nov 2012 #18
yourout Nov 2012 #15
Cleita Nov 2012 #20
yourout Nov 2012 #81
dipsydoodle Nov 2012 #23
Warpy Nov 2012 #25
aletier_v Nov 2012 #32
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #42
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #74
Cleita Nov 2012 #33
seabeyond Nov 2012 #38
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #43
MadrasT Nov 2012 #65
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #68
Horse with no Name Nov 2012 #27
Faygo Kid Nov 2012 #29
Horse with no Name Nov 2012 #31
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #50
Cleita Nov 2012 #30
argiel1234 Nov 2012 #34
Cleita Nov 2012 #36
argiel1234 Nov 2012 #53
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #37
argiel1234 Nov 2012 #55
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #52
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #41
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #44
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #61
Cleita Nov 2012 #45
aletier_v Nov 2012 #56
Cleita Nov 2012 #57
aletier_v Nov 2012 #63
Cleita Nov 2012 #64
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #62
Major Nikon Nov 2012 #76
2on2u Nov 2012 #49
Nevernose Nov 2012 #59
seabeyond Nov 2012 #60
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #75
marions ghost Nov 2012 #66
Cleita Nov 2012 #69
cherokeeprogressive Nov 2012 #67
WinkyDink Nov 2012 #70
Cleita Nov 2012 #77
BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #72
broiles Nov 2012 #78
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #79
marions ghost Nov 2012 #85
DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #84
marions ghost Nov 2012 #86
Aerows Nov 2012 #94
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #91

Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 03:57 PM

1. Your life does go on

That was my take away. Related to George Clooney in that one . . . Being betrayed doesn't mean your life ends. Got the same feeling from the book.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:06 PM

8. Depends on how much you had invested in the relationship to start with

And how close you are to the end of your life at the time also.

Not to mention how the rest of your family/friends react, sometimes the betrayed person makes the rest of the family feel guilty because they didn't clue her/him in.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:09 PM

71. I was six years in

Right under my nose - about three month after? I figured out after what he did to me? Who cares. Go on.

He was too wet to step on and to low to kick. The sooner we see that about people who treats horribly - the better of we are.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #71)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:22 PM

73. Thirty years for me

The last time I went to see my daughter and grandkids there was a picture of grandma with the man she screwed around with and then divorced me for up on the refrigerator and no picture of me.

I don't think I'm going back again, my daughter has a new father and my grandkids have a new grandpa, my grandson even called me by his name.

I only thought my ex broke my heart, I've been over that for a couple of years now, my daughter and my grandkids did a far better job, one from which I don't expect to ever recover.







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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #73)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:12 AM

82. That's different

Flesh and blood. a very good friend of mine loves her children - but cant stand that tey play huggy kissy with the man her husband left her for after 20 years.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #73)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 05:54 AM

89. I'm truly sorry that happened to you

But maybe there's plenty of room in your daughter's heart and your grandson's to love you without judgement or conditions if you allow them. It doesn't have to be an either or sort of thing. Love never is. It just is.

If you allow them back into your heart love them the way you would if the other man had never been in your life they'll probably start telling other people about you by saying "My real grandpa", or "My real Dad."

Why punish yourself and them for accepting and even loving the other man? That shouldn't have anything to do with you and your life with them.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #89)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 08:10 AM

90. I was completely blindsided by the affair and divorce, had no idea what was going on

Found out considerably after the fact that my daughter knew all along what my ex was doing, the other man is an uncle of one of her acquaintances, that's how he and my ex met.

That's why I mentioned guilt in my first post on this thread as being a motivation for people staying away from you after a divorce, you think she wants me around now?

It will never be the same between us and it's due to her actions and feelings more than it is mine.

I was not a bad guy, I was a guy who lost his job at a really bad time, everything else snowballed from that.

A man without a job is worthless in many people's eyes but it really hurts when it's those you love who feel that way.

















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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #90)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 08:58 AM

92. I'm really sorry for what's happened to you

My son's father was a philanderer and an abusive man while taking very poor care of his infant child and me. I know the pain. But I learned that if I thought I was worthless then I was. It takes time and a great deal of effort to overcome and deal with the pain. I know.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 03:59 PM

2. here was an interesting article. Blame affairs on evolution of sex roles

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/17/opinion/coontz-powerful-men-affairs/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7

Many Americans believe these scandals reflect a precipitous decline in respect for marital fidelity. If anything, however, such respect has never been higher. In a 2006 poll by the Pew Research Center, 88% of Americans said adultery was immoral -- a higher number than for any other of 10 unsavory behaviors they were asked about. According to a 2009 Gallup Poll, only 6% of Americans believe extramarital sex is morally acceptable.



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Response to seabeyond (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:07 PM

10. I don't think that article really reflects the true nature of adultery.

I lived in a mining camp with a bunch of ex-pats in South America when I was growing up in the 1940s. This was in a country where, at the time, women had only a few more rights than the Taliban would give them and where everyone knew everyone. Most of the women were wives of the people working there. Also, in this era women were expected to be June Cleaver (Leave it to Beaver) or Mrs. Anderson (Father Knows Best). There were very few single women like teachers and nurses. There were a lot of single men. But let me tell you there was a scandal brewing all the time of inappropriate bed hopping particularly of married women with the younger, hotter single male engineers. So just from my personal observation, lack of women's rights don't seem to stop it.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 09:10 AM

93. People have always cheated

Pretending that it is something new is silly. That's why I laugh at all of these people who think abstinence works. If abstinence worked, half of us wouldn't be here, because the Church has pushed abstinence for over 2000 years, and people still had children out of wedlock.

People are going to have sex, and some people are going to cheat. It's an awful thing to cheat on a another person, but it didn't just start in the 20th century LOL.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:01 PM

3. Why are you assuming that a marriage automatically requires monogamy?

The couples contract is the contract and it is whatever they agree on.

So here is what I think - I am not privy to that contract and will not make a judgment on anyone's "marriage".

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:08 PM

13. If you read my post all the way you would see that I don't assume that at all.

I'm just narrowing it down to those who took vows of monogamy. These are the spouses who betray a spouse who doesn't know what's happening at first.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:15 PM

21. What are "vows of monogamy" in your mind?

Are you assuming that just because someone is married that is the contract under which they are currently functioning as a couple?

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:21 PM

26. When I got married, I vowed to be exclusive with him and he with me.

If he had ever felt he wanted something more, I would have expected him to be honest with me first. It might have led to divorce, but it would have been the honest thing to do instead of bringing unsuspected STD's in my bed or maybe even half-siblings to my children, if we had had any. I would have done the same for him. We were married for thirty-three years before he died.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:12 PM

19. People need to discuss this when getting engaged

I think most people assume that monogamy is part of the marriage contract, so when one partner breaks it there are hurt feelings. Now, if both partners discuss it before the marriage and both agree it is okay then that is another issue. There may still be unexpected hurt feelings that may have to be dealt with but at least the expectation would have been set. I like the show Sister Wives where it is agreed upon by all parties that there will be multiple marriages and multiple sex partners. Consensual adults. That is the key.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:17 PM

24. I think it can be discussed at anytime

and mutually altered over the course of a relationship. It is all about communication and honesty.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:22 PM

28. I can agree with that but

if the other partner is not open to it it may well end the marriage. But it would definitely be better to discuss it before it happens even if it does end the marriage. As others have said it is better to get out of a marriage and then find a new partner if the first partner expects monogamy. Waiting until after it has happened is usually what causes the most pain.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:02 PM

4. I hate it

and it's one of the things I have no problem being judgemental about.
If you want to fuck around then don't get married in the first place. If you just can't keep your pants on then end the marriage before you subject your partner to emotional and health risks.

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Response to ibegurpard (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:44 PM

39. Yes, in this day of age, the health risks of cheating on

one's partner in what is assumed to be a monogamous relationship is really a big sticking point to me. Emotionally, yes, there is hurt and betrayal, but physically risking your partner's life with your indiscretions is worse. One can move past the hurt and the pain caused by a cheating spouse or S/O, but if that partner hands you herpes, syphillis, ghonoreah, or AIDS, it would make picking oneself up and dusting one's self off a little bit harder. And what if you give a disease to a pregnant partner? Now, you are affecting an innocent life that really has no say in the matter.

I say, if you are wanting "fun" and/ or finding yourself unable to keep a monotonous partnership with your "loved" one, then "man" or "woman" up and be honest. Be willing to lose it all for your fun or that you are madly in live with another and deal with the partnership you currently have before going off with another. Or if you have already, be honest before you hop into bed with a partner who believes you are a monogamous couple.

And yes, we have no idea what sort of "relationship" that the General and his wife have? They could have a marriage of convenience for the world to see, but live completely separate lives. Many wealthy and powerful people seem to have more of these types of arrangements.... It's one of the reasons why many of us seem to find the Obama's relationship really credible and full of love. They certainly seem to be very in love with one another after 20 years... Or they have the best acting skills in the world.

Anyway, I have cheated, been cheated on, and I can def say, the most selfish part of it is potentially risking someone's life with a disease (potentially a disease that can be a death sentence). And most of the time cheating is about sex (and the enhanced "risk" of being caught feeling in the lust) OR its about securing a "spot" in someone's life because that "life" is the "style" in which you covet. For me, it was the adventure, naughty, sex. My husband was similar in nature and somewhat making sure "I was the one"... Our indiscretions happened before we actually made a marriage comitment with one another. Unfortunately, for him, he cheated with one of the ambitious persons who used the indiscretion to become pregnant; it was her ploy to keep him with her when he wasn't really into her. We did our soul searching, talking, counciling, and decided that our love for one another was stronger than trying to go it alone without one another. And our son has been able to see and feel what a family of "love" feels like... And he has seen the other side of the coin with his bio-mom who is still using people, men, family members, and even himself to get what she wants from people. And he doesn't like it one bit. The older he has gotten, the more he resents it, but he is still young and is scared of the power, control, and manipulation she still holds over him. He says he can't wait to grow up and have his say in how he wants to live his life and whom he wants to live with.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:02 PM

5. No.

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Response to elleng (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:08 PM

12. OK.

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Response to elleng (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:34 PM

35. LOL...

I was gonna type


Ummm no


You beat me to it. Ellen!

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Response to elleng (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:54 PM

46. How about if the affair starts with a rendevous at an Olive Garden?


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Response to grantcart (Reply #46)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 09:22 AM

95. Is there breastfeeding

and a pitbull involved? Because that would really make a difference to me. Perhaps some chicken with cornflakes, too.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:05 PM

6. I think monogamy goes against human nature....

The social contract was developed to protect the assets of the rich...they wanted to be sure their heirs were of their blood. I'm not sure it has any real value in the modern world, except to place a false burden of presumed mandatory fidelity on marriage partners. I have long thought that if people entered into "open" marriages our divorce rate would be lower.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:10 PM

16. So you would tell your spouse before you engage in an affair.

IMHO, it's the only way it would be okay with me.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:45 PM

40. Absolutely....

Plus it has to be a mutually agreed upon arrangement. Most importantly, it should be worked out BEFORE marriage.... It's not fair to try to work out the details after a few years of marriage and a couple of children. Quite often one partner will be less secure and feel threatened by any type of infidelity. Sex is a biological imperative, we have turned it into some big romantic, 'till death do us part' ball and chain.

Marriage Licenses should be renewable every 5 years ... that would cause more people to look before they leap and change the conversation.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #40)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:55 PM

48. See you have a sensible solution, however, that's not

how affairs usually are conducted. I'm talking about the dishonesty and betrayal that usually happens.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #48)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:03 PM

54. Because it does, should it always?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:23 PM

80. Why bother with marriage?

Just do away with it. Really with the divorce rate we have in this society, it feels really dumb to go to a wedding. You know their promises are not likely to hold or only 50% likely to hold. More self delusion.

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Response to treestar (Reply #80)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:20 AM

83. For some it's a matter of choice

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #83)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:40 AM

87. Yeah. I have gone to two weddings for many people.

And I don't have a lot of money to buy them presents. It's hard to be single - always getting stuff for other people that already have more than they need. I love the wedding showers for second weddings. The whole point was to set them up in a household. A 1950s tradition that needs to go!

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Response to treestar (Reply #87)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:03 AM

88. Send 'regrets"

to the second-timers.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:06 PM

7. The entire Broadwell/Petraeus thing, in my eyes,

is not about the fact that Petraeus cheated but about whether or not he may be given out classified information, which is a big No-no especially if your in charge of the CIA.

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Response to Drale (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:55 PM

47. Yes. Whether there is infidelity in a marriage is a matter for the partners

in the marriage to work out. For some, infidelity is absolutely the end of the relationship.

I recently met a woman whose husband left her a few years ago. She simply went about her business and waited. He came back.

Did she suffer from rejection and a feeling of failure in her relationship? Did she feel embarrassed in front of her friends because her husband's infidelity might be interpreted by some as meaning she was a bad spouse? Probably all of the above.

But she waited. He came back. And he probably suffered too. He probably missed her, the comfort of being in a familiar relationship, sharing memories of his children when they were small, sharing the home they had enjoyed together from some years. Or maybe he missed her cooking, her smell, her sweetness. (She is very sweet.) Who knows? He decided to come back. She is happy about it.

Infidelity is a personal matter. But for those contemplating it, remember: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If you think you wouldn't mind feeling rejected, embarrassed in front of your friends, inadequate, like a failure, like a cat put out in the cold on a winter's night, then help yourself.

If you want revenge on your spouse or you think he/she is a despicable fool, be my guest. I can't do anything about your caddish behavior. But don't complain when your spouse feels hurt and wants to hurt you. You decided to hurt your spouse.

After meeting this woman, I happened to be waiting for an airplane and struck up a conversation with a nice, attractive woman about my age (I'm also a woman). We discovered that both of us have been married about 50 to 51 years. Then a couple right behind us in line piped up. They had been married over 60 years. One thing we all agreed on. Being happily married for so long is just wonderful. Nobody makes movies about all of us long and happily married folk. I guess happiness is boring to screenwriters and novelists. But it is great in real life.

So next time you feel attracted to someone, indulge your fantasy all you want. Give in if you must, but remember you are hurting your spouse. Remember to treat your spouse as you would like to be treated. Don't claim to be a caring, compassionate person if you make your spouse feel unattractive and unwanted.

Other than that infidelity is a personal matter. Has nothing to do with much of anything else.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #47)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:01 PM

51. "I guess happiness is boring to screenwriters and novelists."

You are so right because it's the conflict that makes an entertaining story, but I don't think many of us want to be entertained like that in real life. Congratulations on such a long marriage. I know that my husband and I would have been married so long if he hadn't fallen ill and died. I think most people who do have long, happy and boring marriages have also remained faithful to each other throughout or if they went through a patchy spell resolved it.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:06 PM

9. Crushed me and my family.

Won't get into details, but children were messed up totally by it, more than 30 years ago. I recovered nicely, but I was an adult when it happened. Betrayal is never a good thing. Be honest and get out if you must, but cheating hurts all involved.

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Response to Faygo Kid (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:11 PM

17. Thank you. I believe that's my point.

Adultery that is sneaking around hurts everyone involved. If there is an arrangement like the French do then that's different.

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Response to Faygo Kid (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:16 PM

22. yes to deny that it hurts people is wrong

When monogamy is the expectation and that expecation is broken people do get hurt including children.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:23 PM

58. It can really tear families apart. I have seen it in my own

family and among friends.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:07 PM

11. I agree with your assessment

I can remember a time in my marriage when things were really, really tough. My husband was going through all kinds of medical problems. I was scared and stressed. A grocer started flirting with me. It felt good. I even flirted back a little. But when he started asking to see each other my automatic response was I don't want to hurt my husband and my children. That was it. The flirtation was over. Right then and there I rededicated myself to my husband making a silent vow to myself that I would never cheat. My husband got better and our marriage was even stronger because we stuck together through the hard times. There have been more hard times since, and there have been times when our relationship has been strained since then. But our commitment to each other is always at the forefront of our consciousness. I think when people are hurting they want relief from that pain and when they find something that helps them feel better the thought of how it will hurt their loved ones never even enters their mind, but it should. Anytime you take an action you should always ask yourself what will be the consequence of that action.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:09 PM

14. I think marriage and fidelity are two different things.

 

Marriage is a social contract that should be honored. Some people have their own versions of the contract such as people have who what they call an open marriage.

Fidelity is a pledge to someone whether you are married I not. It is why I would not date anyone who was married but I also would not date anyone who was living with someone. Whether there is a ring or not I don't trust you if you can't be honest with someone you already have a relationship with.

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Response to lalalu (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:12 PM

18. Yes, you have it. It's what a couple committed to that counts and to

go behind ones back is a betrayal.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:10 PM

15. I survived it.......kids will never know. It was not easy but the 10 years since have been...

the best of our marriage.

At the time I did not see how unhappy she was and never in a million years thought she
would cheat. I was not a very good husband at the time and she thought I didn't care about
her.

It really suprised her and myself how much I did care about her.

Sometimes you only start to appreciate what you have after it is almost gone.

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Response to yourout (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:13 PM

20. I'm happy to see that a happy ending can be achieved. Thanks. n/t

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Response to Cleita (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:56 AM

81. It's not easy but there are times when it can work out. IE Bill and Hillary.

It really comes down to do you want to be together or not.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:17 PM

23. Its like a lot of other things

Don't judge without being completely aware of the facts.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:19 PM

25. I think the problem might be marriage, itself

If we look at the facts and figures, adultery involving both sexes is normal behavior, yet we treat it as aberrant and abhorrent because of all the baggage surrounding monogamous marriage, most of it coming from patriarchy.

A really viable alternative is the "walking marriage," wherein families are matrilineal and matrilocal and pair bonds are formed for as long as they last, the man's residence being with his female relatives and the "walking" part of the marriage meaning he walks home every day to do whatever his family is involved in.

While many of the pair bonds last for a lifetime, there is no exchange of property and no blending of family.

It is impractical here because men don't want to give up that much power and entitlement. So we'll keep doing the fictitious monogamy while jeopardizing our homes and children, instead.

http://traditions.cultural-china.com/en/115Traditions342.html

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Response to Warpy (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:26 PM

32. It's foolish to expect monogamy, if you have any life experience.

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Response to aletier_v (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:45 PM

42. my husband and I still expect monogamy but

we have been through enough hard times together and survived those hard times I actually believe we probably could survive an affair. But still on my part at least I have made a promise to him and to myself and to my children that I will not be the one to break that monogamy contract.

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Response to aletier_v (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:31 PM

74. I've been with my husband for 28 yrs after MANY partners before we met- so plenty of life experience

Monogamy is absolutely expected on both sides.

Sex is the "glue" that holds a marriage together. It bonds a pair together and smooths over the rough spots. When you give that aspect away to someone else, you diminish the partnership.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:28 PM

33. I really do like your idea and that would be ideal because

it really does address our human nature at heart. There is no betrayal in an arrangement like this because there is no dishonesty. It's all out in the open. I do believe that most people would pair bond anyway and remain faithful to each other throughout the lifetime of their mating. People who divorce and remarry several times are doing just that, finding the right fit. I guess it's the lies and sneaking around that get to me.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:42 PM

38. every statistic i have read have women at over 16% and men a steady 21% with cheating.

that does not make it a norm. it suggests otherwise.

but, i do think we treat it as a norm.

and that may be another factor in why it is so hurtful

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1778119

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:47 PM

43. good point seabeyond

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Response to Warpy (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:21 PM

65. I like this. n/t

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Response to Warpy (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:18 PM

68. ^ this

You covered everything I was going to say.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:21 PM

27. My daughter was devastated by her cheating husband

of course, the worst part was that he hid his lover AND the child they had together and was emotionally abusive and blamed her for the marriage not working and making her believe she was a failure and a bad mother and everything else.

Then, when his secrets about his hidden lover (who was pregnant again) and their child, it was like pouring acid into a healed wound.

I honestly don't believe that he, his sociopath mother or his nasty whore girlfriend will ever let her heal because every time she gets close to where she is feeling better, they start something else. She is 26 years old and has not dated since the divorce or separation 3 years ago. That isn't healthy.

Honestly, I don't care who sleeps with who--but if you have to hide it from your spouse, then what you are doing is wrong and you should just stop. If you want a different life, move on...divorce or whatever, but you don't have to suck everyone else into your very own Jerry Springer episode.


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Response to Horse with no Name (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:23 PM

29. All the best to you and your daughter.

Move on. Scum is not worth it. Life's lessons.

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Response to Faygo Kid (Reply #29)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:25 PM

31. Thanks

and to you as well.

Unfortunately there is a child involved and he likes to use her to terrorize her mother.

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Response to Horse with no Name (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:57 PM

50. Sad but common...

Does she have a support group? There is probably one in your area. How old is your granddaughter? It is never good for a child to see one parent 'terrorizing' another.

There is nothing wrong with your daughter's refusal to date, as long as it's not a condition being imposed by the pond scum ex-husband.
If it's her own reluctance to take another chance, well who can blame her? She'll date when she's ready....

Best wishes to all of you.

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Response to Horse with no Name (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:25 PM

30. Yes, that's my point. It's not just sex, it's betrayal and it not only involves

the betrayed spouse but families on both sides.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:32 PM

34. thats why Im not married

 

nor have or want children.

Biologically speaking monogamy in fairly rare in the animal kingdom, and marriage in particular is a very human concept

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Response to argiel1234 (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:36 PM

36. Good for you, you are honest about.

It would be disingenuous of you to lead anyone to believe you might be interested in a traditional marriage.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:02 PM

53. youre right it would be disingenuous of me

 

There are plenty of happy and productive people who live their lives single, never wanting a child nor a traditional marriage. I have a girlfriend who has her own place and we both lead lives with work, fun, and a mix of together time and independence.

It works for us.

As for monogamy we are both at the point that STD's in particular are too much of a hassle and problem, so we are monogamous, by choice.

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Response to argiel1234 (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:37 PM

37. It's not for everyone I guess

I myself have been married for 18 years and am glad to have someone to share my life with through the good times and the bad times. It just feels good to have someone that is there for you and that you can be there for as well. I know a lot of young people have strong friendships and maybe that gives them the same kind of feeling. I don't know. If that's the case I am happy for them. The important thing is to have someone who will be there for you whether that is parents, siblings, friends, or a spouse.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:04 PM

55. although Im glad for you, that is not the case with me

 

I value my independence and dont need company nor companionship to be ok with myself. I actually prefer solitude after working a long day, and my days off, many times I spend with my girlfriend, but sometimes I just have the day to myself as well.


It works for me.

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Response to argiel1234 (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:01 PM

52. While I feel for people that are hooked up with a cheater, there are signs when people are dating,

if they will just use their head and pay attention to the warning signs. Most of the people that end up as the victim in bad relationships let love blind them. A man that is going to be a cheater is surely sizing up and eying other women while dating the woman that he will marry. He checks out the hot young waitress a little long, or checks out the hot woman that passes by on the street. He flirts with women that pay attention to him. And the woman the he will marry, she either has her head stuck up her ass, or see the signs and let the future cheater lie his way out of the situation. People make their hell, they can also avoid that hell by using their heads.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:45 PM

41. Adultery is often a spur of the moment thing.

I am a youngish, single man who presents decently, I have had obviously married women hit on me. I must admit that when a really hot woman hits on me, I am highly tempted in some cases. What I think about is my own safety if I give in. I don't want some angry husband out to hurt me, with me not being innocent and having the moral high ground. For me, not cheating boils down to a rational analysis, even at times when my temperature and sexual desire are elevated.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:51 PM

44. I like how you use your brain to analyze the situation

Most people say cheating is evolutionary and biological. That may be true. But it can also be intellectual. There is nothing saying that you can't use your human brain to choose not to cheat even if you do have natural urges. We may still be part of the animal kingdom but we do have something the other animals don't have. A human brain capable of analyzing and making choices based on that analysis. You are smart to avoid the drama and danger that can come from having sex with a married woman.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:59 PM

61. Yep. I still have a lot that I want to accomplish in life. I don't want to be hurt or killed. nt

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:52 PM

45. Ah, the sensible kicks in.

Yes, and it's more than the angry husband, often a hurt husband, who won't do you harm, even though you did him harm. Most likely it's the web of family, friends and children you will be drawn into. You may get away with a one night stand, but an affair hardly ever leads to a good conclusion. There are plenty of single women around for any young dude to need to stray to a married one.

You need to examine why these women are attractive to you to begin with. It could be the forbidden fruit aspect or that you may perceive an attractive lack of commitment comes with the affair. Do you really want to have sex with someone who may have had sex with someone other than her husband before she got around to you? Think about it and start figuring out why single women aren't as appealing to you.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #45)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:16 PM

56. Most women have had several partners.


http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2011/10/what_s_your_number_do_women_still_fret_about_the_number_of_peopl.html

I think age and expectation must make a difference, too. I doubled my # of sex partners after 44, i.e. after I got divorced. I've decided that marriage and monogamy are more about children than they are about partners. It's something to get upset about when you're young.

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Response to aletier_v (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:21 PM

57. The number of partners in one's life has little to do with adultery.

If one has made a monogamous commitment to one person, they shouldn't break that commitment by sneaking around and betraying their partner. They should be honest about it first and it may break up their marriage but at least there was no betrayal. The number of consenting partners anyone has when they are single is not an issue unless one of those partners is cheating on a partner.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #57)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:11 PM

63. You made this comment

"Do you really want to have sex with someone who may have had sex with someone other than her husband before she got around to you?"

Tell me that isn't about having many partners.

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Response to aletier_v (Reply #63)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:19 PM

64. I would worry about how many partners someone has even if single. It's a very

important thing to worry about. If I were to embark on a relationship with someone where sex would be involved, I would insist they be tested for STDs first and I would do so reciprocally too. So as you can see having sex in this day and age isn't really a casual, fall into bed after a glass of wine and joint thing.

However, I was saying this in the context of adultery. In the case of a married woman, I don't think you could ask for such tests and if she wants you to plow her field, just how many plowmen have there been before?

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Response to Cleita (Reply #45)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:03 PM

62. The angry husband works well enough for me. Thanks nt

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:38 PM

76. The act itself may be spur of the moment

However, most people cheat because something is lacking in their primary relationship. Cheating is much more of a symptom of a problem than a problem.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:57 PM

49. Legalize it and it will go away..... or not.... one of the best questions/topics

 

evah!! If anyone figures it out, please pm me. I do not mean to make fun of this, the seriousness of this could not be greater than the damage done by it.... great post with a message for us all.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:42 PM

59. Monogamy has been fairly easy so far

One advantage we have is that we were in our mid thirties when we got married, so a lot of that stuff is out of our system. Plus, we knew enough about ourselves to know that we are very much sexually compatible, and that comes from experimentation and practice: lots of it. The divorce rate among those who get married young is astronomical.

I will say that monogamy seems pretty easy. You have to go out of your way to commit adultery; it doesn't just magically happen.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #59)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:53 PM

60. us, too. and us too. lol.

i am with you. older and educated the divorce rate has dropped to like 11% from 15%. to get that 41% of divorce thru first marriages has really high numbers in other groups.

but, i agree. we were older. we were both fine single. we did our playing. so walking into marriage and living married, has been easy.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #59)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:37 PM

75. +1. nt

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:08 PM

66. If there were no marriage (or monogamous expections in a 1-1 relationship)

people would lose that extra thrill that comes from sneaking around...the drama, the suspense...

Personally I can't imagine wanting the complexity of two full-on relationships involving sex. My idea of a time-consuming nightmare. There's too much else to do and so many other things are equally or more exciting.

Maybe people who get into it are just...bored?

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #66)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:27 PM

69. But that seeking thrills thing? Isn't that an immature reaction to life?

I mean if you have to have thrills, go sky diving or bungee jumping. It's probably safer than a tangled web of marital deceit. I agree about trying to invest yourself in two relationships. It's really got to be a nightmare.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:09 PM

67. Nnnnnnnope.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:29 PM

70. To the OP's Title question: No. BT, DT here with John Edwards.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #70)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:46 PM

77. He broke all our hearts, didn't he, not just Elizabeth. n/t

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:15 PM

72. only if there's pictures...or better yet- video.

 

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:33 PM

78. If you can betray your wife/husband why wouldn't you betray your country?

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:36 PM

79. i'd rather return to the day when people didn't talk about it, personally. i'm so

 

fucking sick of the sex-all-the-time media.

they used to say other things were sublimated sex, but i actually think we get so much sex because we can't have the other things any more.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #79)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:24 AM

85. yep

sex = a distraction on a level just about every one can relate to.

I get what you're saying--this is a quality of life issue.

In other words, when people get their jollies this way, aren't they just...bored--distracted by the constant focus on sex in this culture--more than sex-starved? I don't think too many people really have to fornicate like monkeys. I've seen a few, but they are the rare exception IMO. I know one of these satyrs very well and he wisely decided not to get married until he was over 40. Great guy but always on the make. He probably should seek help for sex addiction.

A lot of people seem to think that messing around is what they should do & are entitled to, according to the norms of the culture where we're told that you can "have your cake & eat it too." Unless both partners are equally open to it, secret liaisons always erode trust.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:22 AM

84. If You Want To Be A Playa, Male Or Female, Don't Get Married

Or if you do make sure your spouse is down with that.


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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #84)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:28 AM

86. Yes

there is no imperative to get married in this culture & it's the more honest way to go. But you still have to be careful of hooking up with someone who really does have more long term goals in mind. And I'm not sure how honest people are about that.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #84)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 09:15 AM

94. This

Don't make commitments to people that you don't intend to keep. I would much rather have someone be pissed at me because I won't make a commitment than because I broke one (and I've had more than one pissed at me because I won't make one).

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 08:18 AM

91. The civilized world, and much of the rest of it as well, has a much healthier view of this.

 

Our puritanical culture is the problem, not human nature.

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