HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Separation of Church and ...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:44 AM

 

Separation of Church and State? Judge sentences teen to 10-years of church for DUI death

A judge in Oklahoma handed down an unconventional sentence of 10 years of church on Tuesday to a teenager who pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter for a DUI crash.

Tyler Alred, 17, had been charged as a youthful offender for the crash on December 3, 2011 that took the life of 16-year-old John Luke Dum of Muskogee, Oklahoma.

Dum was a passenger in the red pickup truck that Alred was driving on the night of the crash and he was ejected from the vehicle when the truck crashed. Breathalyzer tests from that fateful night showed that Alred had a blood-alcohol content of .006.

Judge Norman gave Alred a 10-year deferred sentence, which is the maximum for a juvenile.

The list of conditions Alred must comply with, or face prison time, include: graduating from high school, graduating from welding school, taking drug and alcohol assessment and submitting to drug, alcohol and nicotine tests for a year, wearing a drug and alcohol bracelet, taking part in victimís impact panels and attending church for 10 years.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2234308/Judge-sentences-teen-10-years-church-DUI-death.html

26 replies, 1422 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 26 replies Author Time Post
Reply Separation of Church and State? Judge sentences teen to 10-years of church for DUI death (Original post)
RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 OP
Gidney N Cloyd Nov 2012 #1
Laelth Nov 2012 #2
renie408 Nov 2012 #9
Yavin4 Nov 2012 #14
leftyohiolib Nov 2012 #21
leftyohiolib Nov 2012 #18
Laelth Nov 2012 #22
bowens43 Nov 2012 #3
cbayer Nov 2012 #4
renie408 Nov 2012 #8
cbayer Nov 2012 #11
leftyohiolib Nov 2012 #20
vaberella Nov 2012 #5
BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #6
renie408 Nov 2012 #7
CBGLuthier Nov 2012 #25
HockeyMom Nov 2012 #10
RepublicansRZombies Nov 2012 #23
treestar Nov 2012 #12
Skidmore Nov 2012 #13
leftyohiolib Nov 2012 #19
billh58 Nov 2012 #24
Prometheus_unbound Nov 2012 #15
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #16
malthaussen Nov 2012 #17
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #26

Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:54 AM

1. BA of .006?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:55 AM

2. That's completely within the discretion of a judge in a court of equity.

And it's better than prison.

I only hope that the Judge determined whether or not the defendant was religious first. If so, this sentence doesn't bother me. If the Judge were forcing religion on a person who was not religious, I would feel differently.

-Laelth

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Laelth (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:11 PM

9. How can a US JUDGE mandate CHURCH legally?

I don't care how you slice it, that is establishing religion. Period. Whether the person is religious or not. Or agrees or not.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to renie408 (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:19 PM

14. Exactly. Also What "Church"? Hindi? Islam? Snake Handlers? n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Yavin4 (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:45 PM

21. i belong to the church of the born again hedonist. i wonder if that counts

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to renie408 (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:26 PM

18. it's not establishing religion the religion is already established. you saying it is doesnt make

so also the teen could opt to goto prison apparently he felt otherwise. you need to re-read the 1st amendment cause it doesnt appear that you know what it says.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to renie408 (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 01:00 PM

22. We inherited English common law.

In England, at the time of our founding, there were courts of law (the king's courts, which were secular and handled only secular matters) and courts of equity (the church's courts, that handled supposedly religious matters--marriage, divorce, probate, succession, and crimes against God or the church). We inherited this system, and despite our preference for separation of church and state, we still divide courts into courts of law (which handle matters that were traditionally handled by the king's courts) and courts of equity (which handle everything else). Any court of equity has "broad equitable power" to fashion a remedy (a legal order) that is "equitable" (i.e. fair), including making people go to church; making people attend A.A. meetings; ordering the recount every single ballot in Florida, or all the ballots in a few, select counties in Florida; making people wear embarrassing signs while standing out in front of the court house; you name it.

Personally, I get a little concerned when judges sitting in courts of law do these sorts of things. Traditionally, judges in courts of law could not do this, but judges in courts of equity can order just about anything that they think is fair.

Please note that the states' adoption of the English common law predates the Constitution of the United States, and all of the states, except Louisiana, which still operates under Code Napoleon, embrace and enforce English common law to this day--except to the extent that the common law has been "abrogated," i.e. changed, by statute or later case law. The Constitution of the United States did not, nor was it intended to, abrogate English common law.

-Laelth

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:56 AM

3. court mandated ignorance...great

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:57 AM

4. This was part of a plea bargain that the kid agreed to.

He was also a regular church attendee prior to the sentencing. I don't think there is any separation issue here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cbayer (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:09 PM

8. oops...try again!

Wrong answer!!

I don't give a shit if the kid is the second coming of Christ, a JUDGE cannot order CHURCH as part of any kind of reparation. Not a judge in the United States of America.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to renie408 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:15 PM

11. Yes he can, if the party agrees to that as part of a plea bargain.

You may want to read more about this case.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to renie408 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:39 PM

20. not only can he but he did - the kid could said hell no but he didnt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:01 PM

5. This is what is called strange and unusual punishment.

I personally have a big problem with church and think I'd rather go to prison than Church any day of the week. However, I would also prefer sending juvie's to church over prisons. Prisons are dangerous places, not a rehab clinic. We could end up making worse criminals than better people in a prison.

This is keeping in mind that I have come to terms that America will NEVER have separation of Church and State...not really especially in crimes that stay within state boundaries.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:07 PM

7. Is Oklahoma even part of the United States still???

Hell, I thought they seceded a long time ago...even before this latest round of psychotic bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to renie408 (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 02:18 PM

25. Uhh, no, we are still one of the united states.

and people say we are ignorant. Sheesh.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:14 PM

10. Community Service would be better

and actually accomplish something. Church? Sorry, that won't work. He could just sit there and sleep through it. Take it from a Catholic School (12 years) graduate. You can turn off preaching if you want to.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HockeyMom (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 01:26 PM

23. There is no proof that there is a moral advantage to church going- look at the Republicans!

 


Community service of course!

What's next, their favorite white collar criminals and pedophiles get to go to church instead of jail?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:16 PM

12. That's going to stop him from drinking - magical thinking

It didn't before (as it is said he already went to church).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:17 PM

13. I wonder if this could be appealed on the grounds that

it violates the separation between church and state. Any thoughts?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skidmore (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:34 PM

19. i have one ...

where in the constitution is there a separation of church and state cause it's not in the 1st amendment. i used to think that as well till i read it. it's like the gun people who leave out the part of a well regulated militia being necessary xcpt here people insert words into it that arent there.
the 1st amendment says that the government cant use laws to create a religion nor can it use laws to prohibit one. it says nothing about participating in an established religion or that there should be a "wall" between them

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 02:05 PM

24. Semantics.

"Separation of Church and State" is a concept which is taken from the Establishment Clause, and was indeed the intent of the Founders.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/separation-of-church-and-state/

http://civilrights.uslegal.com/establishment-of-religion-clause/

In this particular case it doesn't appear that there is an "aid or preference" issue for a particular religion, but it could be seen as government imposition on religious freedom (as in the freedom NOT to participate).

The argument that the defendant had the freedom of choice of either going to church or going to jail could also be viewed as a form of coercion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:19 PM

15. Would someone object

If the judge had said 10 years of mosque? Yes. So it IS an issue.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:23 PM

16. Ugh. Attending church won't help this kid with his substance abuse

What a terrible sentence and really skirting the line between church and state. If its not legally questionable, it certainly violates the spirit of the law.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:24 PM

17. This should definitely not be within the judge's purview.

But since it was part of the plea bargain, obviously no one is going to appeal or test it.

n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 02:21 PM

26. Are they appealing or letting it stand?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread