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Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:44 AM

Who Started the (Current) Israel-Gaza Conflict?

I found this to be a well reasoned and well cited account of what has happened in the past few weeks in Gaza and Southern Israel.

Recent events in Israel and the Gaza Strip have been unusual only in scope. Violence and fear of violence is a near-daily reality for the residents of Gaza and Israel's southern communities. There's a constant back and forth, and on both sides, there's always something or someone to avenge.

For instance, some Palestinian sources date the start of this latest round of violence back to November 4, when Reuters reported the death of "an unarmed, mentally unfit man" who strayed too near the border fence, did not respond to reported Israeli warnings, and was then shot. Palestinian medics report that Israeli security personnel prevented them from attending to the man for a couple of hours, and say that he likely died as a result.

But it's genuinely impossible to date today's hostilities conclusively to one incident or another; even the "two-week lull" that some outlets have said preceded Nov. 8 (when the timeline below begins) was, according to Reuters "a period of increased tensions at the Israel-Gaza frontier, with militants often firing rockets at Israel and Israel launching aerial raids targeting Palestinian gunmen."

According to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as of November 13, Palestinian militants had fired 797 rockets into Israel in the course of 2012 , and according to the Israeli human rights organization Btselem, between January 2009 (the conclusion of the last all-out Gaza war) and September of this year, 25 Israelis were killed by Palestinians, and 314 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces, with six more being killed by Israeli civilians.


http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/#

The analysis continues with internal links.

35 replies, 4342 views

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Arrow 35 replies Author Time Post
Reply Who Started the (Current) Israel-Gaza Conflict? (Original post)
morningfog Nov 2012 OP
cali Nov 2012 #1
leveymg Nov 2012 #2
morningfog Nov 2012 #3
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #14
LiberalEsto Nov 2012 #4
JCMach1 Nov 2012 #5
JackRiddler Nov 2012 #22
JCMach1 Nov 2012 #34
Are_grits_groceries Nov 2012 #6
RomneyLies Nov 2012 #7
treestar Nov 2012 #15
DavidDvorkin Nov 2012 #8
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #27
DavidDvorkin Nov 2012 #29
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #30
DavidDvorkin Nov 2012 #31
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #32
DavidDvorkin Nov 2012 #33
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #9
Report1212 Nov 2012 #18
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #19
Wounded Bear Nov 2012 #10
arthritisR_US Nov 2012 #12
treestar Nov 2012 #11
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #13
Iggo Nov 2012 #16
vaberella Nov 2012 #17
Agony Nov 2012 #20
treestar Nov 2012 #21
Agony Nov 2012 #23
Daniel537 Nov 2012 #24
treestar Nov 2012 #25
plethoro Nov 2012 #26
Octafish Nov 2012 #28
dflprincess Nov 2012 #35

Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:48 AM

1. it's a very good, thorough piece and should be read by everyone

seeking more knowledge about the current Gaza situation. I was just about to post it myself.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:06 AM

2. Question assumes that anything ever stops or changes between the two.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:09 AM

3. Agreed.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:21 PM

14. +1 nt

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:24 AM

4. This reminds me of being a mom with two children fighting.

She did it.
No, she did it.
Well, she started it.
No, she started it. etc. etc.etc.

I used to send both to their rooms for timeouts.
I also talked with both about not joining in if the other starts something.

It usually went in one ear and out the other.
Before long, they'd be fighting again.

I used to wonder if they actually enjoyed fighting with one another, because they were at it so often.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:28 AM

5. the British... (sarcasm)

that's how chicken and egg this question is.

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Response to JCMach1 (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:41 PM

22. Well, obviously.

Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration.

But as you imply: Now what?

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #22)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:28 PM

34. just that the discussion of who is at fault is a non-starter

the discussion should be about what the future will look like and how do both sides want to live. Until both sides want to deal with that... well, not much will happen.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:32 AM

6. I have some books to suggest.

This latest horror is just an answer to some event that whoever has waited to address. It never stops. The overt action may, but the covert crap goes on.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:33 AM

7. The UN did, in 1948.

 

The imperfect solution for a state of Israel damned the region to neverending conflict.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 01:00 PM

15. +1

on that too

Did they really believe the people already there would have no problem with it? They should have followed through a lot more, too, and immediately started helping the Palestinians out. Ever since then Israel has claimed the Palestinians could have stayed but now deserve their fate since so many of them fled, supposedly on the word of Arabs. Now gee, they weren't supposed to trust the Arabs as much as the new State of Israel? I've always found that rationalization to be sickening.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:45 AM

8. The Romans

Or possibly the Persians.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:02 AM

27. The Romans at the very least.

And then there were the many, many, many, many persecutions of Jewish people around the world. Christians and Muslims have safe countries to go to. Jewish people did not and, if you are realistic about it, do not. Study just the history of the Mediterranean, just of Europe pre- and post-WWII beginning at least with the fall of Rome in 70 A.D. It is one horror story after the other.

I think that a true, UN enforcement army is needed to patrol the border. A couple of decades of enforced peace by an army equipped and authorized to enforce that peace would probably bring security and eventually reason and tolerance to the situation.

As difficult a solution as the existence of the State of Israel is, I really believe that most of the problem is in anti-Jewish sentiment, the remnants of the pogroms and the Holocausts and the teachings of the Christian churches and before them the Roman empire against Jews and their religion.

I have often stated on DU that I am not Jewish. I am not, but I have observed this situation for years and years. If Israel did not exist, it would have to be invented. The rest of the world needs to understand that and accept it. It is a refuge, and the people there deserve to be kept safe. Same for a lot of other groups on the earth.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:28 PM

29. The Persians were the original Zionists

So everyone should blame Iran.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:23 PM

30. I'm talking about how the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple and exiled

the Jews from Israel around 70 B.C. That is, for me, when the diaspora began. As I understand it, from that point on, Jews were pretty much persecuted at regular intervals if not constantly.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #30)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:30 PM

31. That was why I mentioned the Romans

However, the Persians recreated a Jewish state in the region, partially undoing the Babylonian Exile, long before the Romans came along to create the Diaspora.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:16 PM

32. But that was before the great persecution of Jews across Europe

that lead to the 1948 mandate for Israel and Palestine.

I see a connection between the Roman expulsion of Jews from Israel in around 70 B.C., the subsequent persecution of Jews across Europe and the Holocaust of WWII followed by the mandate for Israel in 1948. That is why I mention it.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:33 PM

33. That's true.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:11 PM

9. Hamas did. They were lobbing shit into Israel for weeks. Israel finally got pissed.

 

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 02:20 PM

18. Israel had been shelling this whole time too nt

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Response to Report1212 (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 02:32 PM

19. Only in response. It just recently got hot. I think Israel was rather restrained.

 

As it is, I have to give Israel credit for using precise targeting with minimal casualties. They're knocking out installations but the body counts are almost unbelievably low. Hamas is just lobbing shit without regard for where the shit lands. The Iron Dome installations seem to be working rather well, but it's still not going to settle down anytime soon.

I'm worried because of the current government in Egypt. If they get involved directly, so will Iran, and maybe even Turkey (which would really mess with our diplomacy). We're sort of glued to Israel on this one. The entire region could go up in smoke this time.



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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:12 PM

10. King David...or maybe it was Pharoah....I forget....nt

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:17 PM

12. Actually the king of Jordon's grandfather sold the

land to Jewish settlers and the rest is history.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:15 PM

11. At this point, I've started to not care

Both sides should quit killing. Period.

I have no patience any more for their rationalizations and lists of atrocities the other has done to them, while ignoring the atrocities they did to the other side and trying to rationalize them. They all need to quit killing and get with the modern world. They can live with a diversity of religions and ethnic groups as well as anyone else can.

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Response to treestar (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 12:20 PM

13. +1. And that's saying a lot for me. I used to really grieve the deaths

but my give-a-fuck-o-meter for both sides isn't registering much anymore.

Damn shame.

The article in the OP however is excellent and for that it gets a K&R for me.

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Response to treestar (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 01:46 PM

16. Yep.

I don't give a fuck anymore. Fuck Netanyahu and his pals. Fuck Hamas.

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Response to treestar (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 01:52 PM

17. Amen. n/t

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Response to treestar (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:58 PM

20. That might be fine except for the 3 billion you send there each year

in foreign "aid". You can't exactly wash your hands of the situation, can you?

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Response to Agony (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:24 PM

21. Are you from another country other than the US?

If so, which one?

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Response to treestar (Reply #21)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:45 AM

23. I don't want you to stop caring.

we, if you like.

I agree, sure would be nice to care about other things that need caring about
and let the religious extremists go at it.

Cheers,
Agony

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Response to Agony (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:52 AM

24. True, we should cut off military aid to both Israel and the Palestinian Authority

Nothing but corrupt elitists who shit on the working class. But i've always argued for a more hands-off, non-interventionist foreign policy, so we should stop trying to play mediator in all these conflicts. Let the sides actually affected sit down and work things out by themselves. Are they children or are they adults? Let them decide how to handle that question.

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Response to Daniel537 (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:41 AM

25. True, it's a wonder we get into it in the first place

Maybe we feel responsible in some way - for getting weapons to one side or the other.

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:02 AM

26. I finally join those who don't care anymore...Plus,

 

it is Christmas and everyone has to feign joy.

Oh, little town of Bethlehem....

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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:44 PM

35. In their never ending game of "I got you last"

I've lost track of who started it. I just wish both sides would grow up and end it.

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