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Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:42 AM

Obama Care Should be Repealed and Replaced

with Medicare for all.

First off, it makes the most sense. The system we now have (before the full implementation of Obama Care) is geared to the Insurance companies. I negotiate insurance premiums into union collective bargaining agreements, so I have a little understanding of the concept. Insurance companies gather profits because the premiums paid are greater than the medical payouts. Therefore, the younger, healthier participants supplement the older, sicker ones and include the profit for the insurance company. As the participants become older and sicker, they then are put on the government roles (Medicare at 65).

This is a scam for the insurance companies. If the government already has the older, sicker participants in their system, it is irrational for us to not include the younger, healthier participants. Hence, Medicare for all.

This would be a boost to all businesses, large and small. Unions could negotiate the supplemental portion of medicare as an additional benefit (medicare advantage), which would be less expensive to the company than what they are paying now to the insurance companies for full-coverage for their employees. It would also reduce the employee contribution, thereby increasing the employee's take home pay.

This was Danial Patrick Moynahan's proposal during the Clinton years. He said that all we had to do was eliminate one word and a number to the current medicare bill "over 65".

We've taken the first step, let's take the next.

22 replies, 2876 views

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply Obama Care Should be Repealed and Replaced (Original post)
louis c Nov 2012 OP
jsr Nov 2012 #1
MrYikes Nov 2012 #2
hobbit709 Nov 2012 #3
louis c Nov 2012 #5
SammyWinstonJack Nov 2012 #4
John2 Nov 2012 #6
cleduc Nov 2012 #7
h2ebits Nov 2012 #13
cleduc Nov 2012 #18
rock Nov 2012 #17
cleduc Nov 2012 #19
MjolnirTime Nov 2012 #8
louis c Nov 2012 #15
CarmanK Nov 2012 #9
Cleita Nov 2012 #10
pasto76 Nov 2012 #11
louis c Nov 2012 #14
ProSense Nov 2012 #16
quakerboy Nov 2012 #12
Wounded Bear Nov 2012 #20
ProSense Nov 2012 #21
MoonchildCA Nov 2012 #22

Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:49 AM

1. It was always the best and simplest solution

but a very bad idea according to health insurance industry executives.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:52 AM

2. You are correct. Timing is the issue. Obama is for it,

but maybe they will let Hillary have the honor since she fought so hard for it in the 90's. Two years of grumbling about it (14 and 15) may put Americans in the ready state.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:54 AM

3. My whole beef with it is that it is health INSURANCE not health CARE.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:59 AM

5. I was pleasantly surprised at the Obama Care benefits during my check-ups

I have a $1,000 deductible (the first $600 is picked up by the employer). As it turned out, for the first time, all the preventive portion of the check up was covered by the Ins. Co. without being applied to my deductible. It cost me nothing to have blood tests, a colostomy and many other preventive visits. I was astonished that it didn't even exceed the $600.

Thank you, Mr. President

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:58 AM

4. The scam continues with even more participants.

Medicare for All! Probably NOT gonna happen.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 08:37 AM

6. They

 

are trying to curb the growth of Medicare and you propose to repeal Obama care? I don't think Obama care should be repealed before it even set in. It was hard enough getting it through. I think what ever problems show up in Obama care should be fixed instead of repealing it.

Social Security should be off the table in these talks about the fiscal cliff. Waste should be cut in Medicare and controlling the cost of Health care costs. This is where people are getting Profits. I think people should be paid well in the Health care business but their main priority should be on Health and not profits. This is where Insurance companies come in also. Cutting benefits should not be controlled, but cutting the rising costs of services should be controlled. People are more worried about their stocks on Wall street instead of patient care. There needs to be some compromise here. Cutting costs would save a lot of money. This is the approach the Republicans take with teachers. Health care professionals should be held to the same standards.

The cuts need to be made in Defense but not with Benefits to veterans either. The U.S. needs to place more burden on countries to provide their own National Defense instead of giving them welfare. This is also a very lucrative business for the wealthy in this country. They are the people deciding to go on foreign adventures on the backs of the middle class and poor. We support a lot of countries that can't defend themselves. That is not in our Constitution either. One example is the War in Ir ag and rebuilding their country. Another one is Afghanistan. We are build;ding up their forces and they kill our troops.They have over 300,000 troops now. If the Karzhei regime implanted by the Bush Administration can't do nothing with that force after 12 years now, then get the Hell out. Let them fight and struggle for their own freedom just like we did.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 09:15 AM

7. Here's a way I pitched it to my GOP leaning sister

My sister's initial reaction to my comments about healthcare was to suggest shock that I'd become a socialist.

List of countries by total health expenditure (PPP) per capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita
US $7,960
Canada $4,363
Difference = 7,960-4363 = $3,597 heath care savings per person

If the US went to Canada's system (which from what I've seen is better than Medicare), the US would save:

311,591,917 US people x $3,597 per person = $1.12 Trillion health care savings per year.
Some of those savings would be saved by the government, some by business and some by the people who pay for their health care.

And the part overlooked in a lot of health care discussions and number crunching is the economic impact that concerns capitalists:
- The work force would be healthier and therefore, more productive.
- Companies would make more money because cost of employment of their labor would be reduced
- US citizens would have more disposable income that would boost the US economy
- Each job would cost about $7,200 less which would make employment in the US more competitive in the world and bring jobs back to the US.
- Because more jobs would come back to the US, more value add would be done in the US and reduce the US trade deficit as more products made or services performed in the US would be purchased by Americans and more products made or services performed in the US would be sold to other countries.
- And of course, the federal and state deficits would be significantly reduced with lower health care costs.
- bankruptcies and court costs would go way down
- cost of borrowing/mortgages would go down because the risk of loaning is reduced with the elimination of most healthcare bankruptcies. As a result, more capital would flow into the economy to give it a boost

The major losers would be the health care insurance companies and those health care professionals who thought the Hippocratic Oath meant making an absurd bundle off sick people.

Aside from a general improvement in the quality of life of the average American:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
US Life Expectancy 78.2 (38th ranked)
Canada Life Expectancy 80.7 years (12th ranked)
US citizens would likely live about 2.5 years longer while spending $1.12 trillion less per year to acquire those extra years of life
And we have a good idea that's true because 45,000 US citizens would stop dying each year because they don't have health care:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/september/harvard_study_finds_.php
45,000 US people per year aren't just losing an ideological argument about capitalism. They're losing life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness forever. But the US is willing to spend trillions to avenge 3,000 deaths one time on 9/11 but not address 45,000 dying per year - which just blows my mind.

One can bicker about the precision of the numbers I've used above. But the general theme is accurate. The US can afford to have the best health care in the world because the US is already paying much more than any other country in the world now. The US is just getting a terrible bang for it's health care buck with devastating results ... economically, socially, etc.

The duty of capitalists in business is to find ways to produce their products and services cheaper, better and more efficiently to maximize their bottom line. 45+ years ago, Canada tried the above with no detrimental effect on capitalism. In fact, it makes Canadian businesses more competitive around the world in their capitalist system. The US has tried what they have for the last 45 years and the results are plain to see. It hasn't worked. Capitalists have to look to the bottom line when things aren't working and try something else - particularly when they can see someone else or another country who has proven that another solution can work much better over the last 45 years. It's in the capitalists best interest to hold their nose and socialize healthcare (ignoring the other stronger philosophical/ideological arguments).

So my GOP leaning sister voted for Obama.

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Response to cleduc (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:54 AM

13. Well reasoned argument for universal health care!

Thanks for taking the time to explain this from a capitalist standpoint.

Unfortunately, the insurance companies, which have us at their mercy, are also capitalists and will do whatever it takes to keep us under their thumb. Obamacare is a good first step with the insurance exchanges. The State of Vermont will show us the way for each of the states to adopt single payer. We the People need to educate each other regarding the value to this country of a single payer system.

We also need to stop being afraid of the word "socialism" and become truly afraid of the word "fascism" and the moneyed interests that are pushing the idea onto United States citizens. The un-twining of the rope around our collective necks has started; now we need to keep moving forward and pick up speed to get our country back in the hands of the people.

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Response to h2ebits (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 11:55 AM

18. For clarity, I'm not that hung up on the capitalist standpoint

When 45,000 people are dying without healthcare, I don't need the capitalism argument to motivate me but for those running into the socialism rebuttal, it might be handy. I do believe in the economic benefits that I pointed out though.

Obamacare isn't a perfect solution. Single payer has flaws too but I think it can work pretty well.

The big thing about Obamacare is that it's going forward. They don't have to try to get a 60 seat majority in the Senate, a majority in the House and a sympathetic president to go through that terrible argument again.

When America finds out that there are no death panels, etc, and see some encouraging numbers in health care costs, I think Obamacare will appeal much more over time and it will become more like Medicare - they won't be able to get rid of it. And the focus will become how this imperfect legislation can be improved - which will likely move it towards Medicare for all - with a few stages of amendments.

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Response to cleduc (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 11:48 AM

17. Your sister must be a Shitpublican

The speed with which she changed the subject was blinding.

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Response to rock (Reply #17)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 11:58 AM

19. Well she's voted for Barack twice now

so unlike a bunch of them, she can be reasoned with.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:37 AM

8. Obamacare is the Law of the Land. I suggest you get used to it.

 

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Response to MjolnirTime (Reply #8)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:58 AM

15. I get it

I think Obama is the best we could have done under the circumstances. However, it's a step along the path to our ultimate goal. Universal Health Care (Medicare for All).

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:39 AM

9. Cannot Repeal, Can only improve! 30 yr battle won, hard fought and too hard to go back!

Obamacare needs improvement, it cannot be repealed. The fact is, that repubs are determined to get rid of Medicare and to repeal Obamacare would be to open up a can of worms and out will come the snakes. It is important to expand health care. In fact, there looks like there is an opening with the repug (red) states refusing to set up exchanges. So, the fed will come in and set them up. that gives the fed a foot in the door in the poorest and most underprivileged states and allows the fed to oversee the operation of the exchanges. Well learned experience, while people are getting used to more acceptable, affordable health care accessibility for families.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:41 AM

10. We know.

Even if we could have included Medicare as part of the options or a public option in the ACA, it would have paved the way for a single payer system. We still can do it by pressuring our pols to put in a choice of Medicare for any age in the exchanges. But to repeal what we are going to get that is better than what we have now seems a little retarded to me.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:41 AM

11. seriously? Repubs control the House, have you forgotten?

its called reality. They will never ever ever ever ever pass any manner of healthcare reform. repealing it is insane. "SEE! Its so bad even the liberals want it repealed!"

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #11)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:56 AM

14. They won't control the House forever

Maybe 2016 will be a blue political tidal wave and Hillary will sign the bill with the support of 275 Democratic House members and 62 Democratic Senators.

If things break correctly, that's not that far fetched

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Response to louis c (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 11:00 AM

16. "Maybe 2016 will be a blue political tidal wave and Hillary will sign the bill"

Are you serious?

The law becomes fully implemented in 2014. By the end of 2016, Vermont will likely become the first single-payer state in part due to ACA.

The notion that the health care law needs to be repealed to get to Medicare for all is beyond absurd.

The Medicare for all bill introduced in Congress in 2009 was an add-on to the health care law, which strengthens Medicare.



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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:42 AM

12. Nope.

Nothing in Obamacare, so far as I am aware, blcks Medicare for all. Lets just pass Medicare for all, and not worry about repealing anything.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 12:29 PM

20. Sequence is wrong....

Obamacare should be replaced, and then repealed, or simply left to wither on the vine.

No repeal movement should get any traction until a replacement program (Medicare for all would be a good start) is already in place.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #20)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 12:35 PM

21. No it isn't.

It's the right sequence for everyone who wants Obama to get no credit for health care reform.

Support For Repealing Obamacare Plunges To An All-Time Low
http://election.democraticunderground.com/10021808119

Law of the land, baby!



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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 12:50 PM

22. Repeal is certainly not the answer.

This is so much better than nothing. I know. It has saved my life, and it's saving the life of my best friend who was just diagnosed with cancer. We are on the pre-existing insurance plan.

As it stands, the states can come up with their own plans as long as they meet or exceed the existing program. Vermont has passed single-payer. California has one on the table--California OneCare. This is how we will implement single payer, and it will be improved upon as we go along. Canada did not do it all at once, it happened province by province.

When you have a country with a legistlative branch so firmly against it, and corporate influence and control of our election process so firmly ingrained, there is no other way to achieve this. If you repeal it, it is gone. End of story. We will be back where we started.

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