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Thu Nov 15, 2012, 06:50 PM

 

The death of Savita Halappanavar after she was denied an abortion will divide Ireland


Anger and shame: Irish women protest following the death of Savita Halappanavar

By Judith Woods
The Independent
Nov 15, 2012

An unborn life is worth fighting for, but not at any cost

What a shameful time to be Irish, Catholic and anti-abortion. As Im all three, I hang my head in mortification at the tragic, possibly avoidable death of Savita Halappanavar, who was denied the termination that could have saved her life.

The 31-year-old dentist, who moved to Ireland from India in 2008, was admitted to hospital in great pain, 17 weeks into a much-wanted pregnancy. Doctors at University Hospital Galway confirmed she was miscarrying her baby, yet refused to intervene on the grounds that the foetal heart was still beating.

There was life, so there was what? Hope? No, the child was lost, far beyond the reach of modern medicine, nobody disputes that. Instead of hope there was faith. Faith at its very worst, manifested by a dogmatic reluctance to take action.

More: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9680528/The-death-of-Savita-Halappanavar-after-she-was-denied-an-abortion-will-divide-Ireland.html

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Reply The death of Savita Halappanavar after she was denied an abortion will divide Ireland (Original post)
UnrepentantLiberal Nov 2012 OP
Liberal_in_LA Nov 2012 #1
RainDog Nov 2012 #11
loudsue Nov 2012 #2
GeorgeGist Nov 2012 #8
loudsue Nov 2012 #39
Dawson Leery Nov 2012 #40
ChairmanAgnostic Nov 2012 #3
RainDog Nov 2012 #12
UnrepentantLiberal Nov 2012 #16
smirkymonkey Nov 2012 #4
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #5
Demeter Nov 2012 #6
InsultComicDog Nov 2012 #7
ceile Nov 2012 #23
InsultComicDog Nov 2012 #25
ceile Nov 2012 #31
WinkyDink Nov 2012 #24
catbyte Nov 2012 #9
liberalhistorian Nov 2012 #28
catbyte Nov 2012 #36
East Coast Pirate Nov 2012 #10
RainDog Nov 2012 #13
Hydra Nov 2012 #20
WinkyDink Nov 2012 #22
RainDog Nov 2012 #27
liberalhistorian Nov 2012 #30
RainDog Nov 2012 #32
liberalhistorian Nov 2012 #33
RainDog Nov 2012 #35
liberalhistorian Nov 2012 #29
ProfessionalLeftist Nov 2012 #14
Heywood J Nov 2012 #15
backscatter712 Nov 2012 #17
Hydra Nov 2012 #19
LeftinOH Nov 2012 #18
ceile Nov 2012 #21
Beringia Nov 2012 #26
Hekate Nov 2012 #34
Beringia Nov 2012 #37
njlibguy_19656mm Nov 2012 #38

Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 06:52 PM

1. India is in an uproar about her death also

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:57 PM

11. good.

this is absolutely disgusting.

the church is responsible for this woman's death.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 06:57 PM

2. This makes me sick.

And they should be ashamed as hell. Her blood is on her doctors' hands.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:49 PM

8. This makes me sick.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #8)

Sat Nov 17, 2012, 03:14 PM

39. AAAaaaaakkkkkkk! You should WARN people before you do that!!

< cue an exorcist's cross > "Get thee behind me Satan!!"

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:50 PM

40. The "false prophet"

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 06:59 PM

3. No.

to the contrary, it will unite it.

This lovely country suffered 60-70 years of sexual abuse by priests, nuns, and church aides. This country has pretty much told its bishops, go fuck yourself. The people are very unhappy about the control (social and mental) that the church used to its financial and social advantage, and how it further victimized those that it fucked. As well as their families.

Every time I've been to Ye Olde Sod, I've noticed more and more disenchantment about the bloody church. (I am not Irish, I just like Guinness)

This last event will catalyze something that has been brewing for quite some time. They may continue to believe in some god, but they will no longer believe in the Church.

about time, I say.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #3)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:59 PM

12. I hope you're right

I know the pedophile scandals have cost the nation of Ireland dearly and have also caused A LOT of people to discontinue their association with the church.

If Ireland could break free of that tryanny, it would be better for them than any battle with GB.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 12:53 PM

16. The church is a deadly parasite.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:00 PM

4. K&R

This was a sickening decision that led to the loss of this woman's life. Ireland should be ashamed of it's archaic religious bullshit that led to this tragedy. I still cannot get my mind around why they wouldn't intervene when the fetus would not have survived in any circumstance.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:06 PM

5. I too believe it may be a unifying thing. The Irish seem to ready to overthrow the Catholic church's

death grip on that nation. Salvita's death may be what does it.

Its just such a fucking shame. Horrible all around....

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:49 PM

6. Divide Ireland? More than it is already?

It is shameful to impose one's religious superstitions and prejudices on other people.
But that's all in a day's work in the Catholic Irish culture. Even here in the Land of the Theoretically Free, we get this crappy rationalization for immoral, improper, and inherently undemocratic government from people generations from the Olde Sod.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:51 PM

7. I hope it does something

About 10 years ago a guy I knew, an African American, went to Ireland for some sort of athletic competition. He was a track athlete. When he returned he told me he found Ireland to be a very racist country. Kind of surprised me because I had thought of Ireland as a progressive place.

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Response to InsultComicDog (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:11 PM

23. In the early 2000s the gov't was releasing PSAs the racism was so bad.

Athletes, musicians, politicians all condemning racism. Not sure if it's different now, but the Celtic Tiger days brought in many immigrants so hopefully it is.

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Response to ceile (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 05:29 PM

25. interesting.

this was in 2002

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Response to InsultComicDog (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 07:44 PM

31. sounds right.

I was there in '01 and '02. Interesting time...

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Response to InsultComicDog (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:14 PM

24. Well, their New World off-spring can be mighty racist! (Cf., Boston, School Busing.)

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:57 PM

9. Religion in public policy is poison

That's my opinion and I will not apologize. I never saw my mom ever wear a sleeveless outfit in public because of the scars she received by the nuns in Indian school when she did one minor thing or another. What on earth could a little girl do to deserve that? I have no respect for the Catholic Church. They need to be taxed and taxed now. Same with others butting into politics, but with the Catholic Church, for me it's personal. And people wonder why only 4% of us Indians identify as Christian.

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Response to catbyte (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:43 PM

28. I'm a white liberal Christian living

on a western Indian reservation and I totally agree with you, both on religion staying out of politics and secular life and on the Catholic Church, which has done more damage to native americans than anything besides the U.S. government itself. The Catholic-run boarding schools were horrendous, and I know, or know of, so many older native americans who suffered lifelong trauma because of them.

And the Church got away with it because when they tried to address it through the courts, our state legislature rammed through a bill limiting the time in which suits against the church could be filed to three years from the time of knowledge of the abuse. This effectively ended any suits against the church in this state and the legislature, none of whose members are Indian despite there being nine reservations in this state, refuse to budge under enormous pressure to repeal that damned bill.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:04 PM

36. I hear you. It's a disgrace. And of top of what they did to us, the pedophile priests

cover-ups literally turns my stomach. And they want to preach to US about morality? I don't know whether to or

And don't get me started on the government, lol. President Obama is the only president who has even begun to keep his promises to us.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:55 PM

10. Fucking barbaric.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:08 PM

13. My question is this: why would any woman associate with this religion?

If not for themselves, then what about other women?

This church wants to force every woman to act as the brood mares of patriarchy or die trying. Support for the church = support for their misogyny.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:40 PM

20. Supposedly Patriarchy doesn't exist or isn't a problem anymore

Which as a male, I find laughable in a bad way.

Who knows why women support their own enslavement, but we could ask that of the entire RW block of our nation. A lot of them think that they are "safe" and "protected" by their masters, their fear leading them to all sorts of dark places and driving them to bring everyone else with them.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:11 PM

22. Try asking that question of every Christian sect, not to mention Judaism, Islam, etc.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:33 PM

27. well, yes.

ultimately the question does come down to anyone who was taught a misogynistic view of god as they were growing up.

Mary Wollstonecraft, way back in the 1700s, said people had to get away from the myth of Prometheus sort of thinking in order to really stand for social justice.

...or the myth of a punishing god and a lone individual who bears the burden of human intellectual curiosity and attempts to understand the world by reason instead of myth.

When I heard Bishops speaking about other Americans as criminals because they do not share Catholic beliefs about conception and gestation - beliefs that are in no way validated by reason or science... I just don't understand why anyone would align with such a regressive group.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:49 PM

30. Now wait a minute, I'm a progressive Christian, and I can tell you

that there are denominations where patriarchy is NOT the case at all. In fact, in the UCC, women pastors now outnumber men and it's a very progressive, social-justice-oriented, feminist denomination and has been for quite some time. And there are others where that's the case also. The whole patriarchy male superiority garbage has been a misinterpretation and/or mistranslation of scripture in many cases.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 07:45 PM

32. This thread is about anti-abortion christians

Whose doctrine supports misogyny.

If that doesn't apply to your beliefs then this issue doesn't apply to you.

The issue is traditional Christianity, that part of American cultural life that has existed since the founding of this nation and continues in various ways today.

If scripture is so easily misinterpreted, you have to wonder why a god couldn't clarify - but the problem, of course, is that the founding texts are based upon culturally primitive societies - so that remains as part of the dominant cultural teaching in American society.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 07:58 PM

33. Well, excuse me, but I was replying

to a poster who asked why women would be a part of any Christian or other religious group. I think I'm permitted to do that without the thread police showing up.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:28 PM

35. LOL.

go for it.

I'm off duty.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:46 PM

29. I honestly don't know, except that I think it may have to do with

the brainwashing from the beginning about the supremacy of patriarchy and the importance of maintaining strict gender roles and the man as the king of his castle. Because that's the way God wants it. Or something. Hard to resist that kind of thing when it's drilled into you from day one.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 11:20 PM

14. Coming soon to a United States near you...

...courtesy of the American Taliban.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 07:44 AM

15. Ireland??? You must be talking about Gilead. (NT)

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 12:59 PM

17. Goes to show the Roman Catholic Church is as much of a creepy cult as the Mormon Church.

I'm sure their fetus-fetishists are coordinating their caterwauls about how this woman died to "protect life" as we post...

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:36 PM

19. As a former Catholic

I can tell you that the Mormons stole the MO of my old church and turned up the volume. The similarities you see are not a coincidence.

The fact of the matter is, the christianity was always supposed to be a personal and underground religion. When it came into the daylight it became one of the predators of society. As a result, whenever someone tells me they are a christian and want to make me do something, I treat them exactly as they are- heretics.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:18 PM

18. I was in traveling in Ireland (first time visitor) when this happened

3 weeks ago, but I don't recall any news about it at the time. Ireland is a beautiful country with a fascinating history and culture. Hopefully some permanent change will come out of this preventable tragedy.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:08 PM

21. Did anyone read the comments?

Scary.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 05:43 PM

26. There was a movie made by Otto Preminger on this subject


Well sort of about this subject. It was called The Cardinal. And in the movie a man becomes a priest and then his sister is pregnant, but cannot deliver it because her pelvis is too small, and they found her too late alone. So the priest is her next of kin and says that he won't let the doctors kill the fetus in order to save his sister's life and she dies.

Then the priest goes through a crisis and almost quits, but another high up priest tells him to take a sabbatical and think about it. And then the priest becomes a Cardinal later on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cardinal

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Response to Beringia (Reply #26)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 08:06 PM

34. Read the book when I was young

When I was young I really wanted to become Catholic (my grandma was, and I adored her) -- loved the candles and rituals and ancient certainty. But my mother, who was as ex-Catholic as you can be (none of this "lapsing" stuff for her) had done her work too well: I thought for myself, and even at 14 I was thinking all the time.

Back to the book. It was one of several novels I read in jr hi and hi school that were set in the late 19th and early-20th centuries, and which touched on where you would go to have your baby, if you went to a hospital. I was baffled by the refrain: "Oh no, don't send your wife/daughter/sister to the Catholic hospital! If she has trouble delivering they won't try to save her -- they'll let her die while they try to save the baby! You be sure to send her to the Protestant hospital!"

As I say, I was young, and this baffled me. My own mother had almost died a couple of times while miscarrying, and I knew it. WTF?

Then I read "The Cardinal," and there it was: If everything goes wrong you let the mother die, because she's already had her chance to try to save her soul, and you need to focus on the new soul being born no matter what.

I'm waaaaaay older now, and long ago stopped hoping The Church would change. And I'm very glad my ancestors saw fit to leave Ireland, although I enjoyed my two folk-music oriented tours there.

I think the women stick around the Roman Catholic Church for the Virgin Mary, who is more human than the men who run the institution.

As for me, contemplating the Triple Goddess gives one a whole different perspective, and a whole different balance.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:40 PM

37. I think for myself too

and have since a child. My father was a very obsessed Catholic as a young man and that is probably the reason I was born, what with not using birth control. But my father and mother drifted away from all the rules and regulations, though my father remained very "close to God". We would visit his family in Wisconsin, my aunts, and they would be watching religious shows on TV, with hundreds of men in black. I just thought it was too bad for a woman to be caught up in something where it was practically an all male hierarchical society.

I think the Catholic religion has done a lot of good in the world, but they need to change some of their ways. Just like "the old white men are dying off", that would vote for someone like Mitt Romney, I hope the die-hard male rule in the Catholic Church dies off too.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:42 PM

38. how sad

 

may she rest in peace

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