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Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:54 PM

Can a California carpool lane law challenge citizens united?

Heard this on Thom today and have not seen it reported here.

Apparently, per Ca. Vehicle code, entities allowed to legally operate a motor vehicle in the state can be either persons OR corporations. So, this guy calls into Thom's show.

He has been driving in the carpool lanes with the passengers being, himself and his papers of incorporation. Well, he finally got pulled over and got a ticket! He will now go to court. God help the judge if he rules that corporations are NOT people, he runs smack into Scalia's Citizens United. If he rules that corporations ARE people, anyone with papers of incorporation can drive in the carpool lanes!

Fucking brilliant!

Can't wait to see where this goes!

24 replies, 1822 views

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Arrow 24 replies Author Time Post
Reply Can a California carpool lane law challenge citizens united? (Original post)
OffWithTheirHeads Nov 2012 OP
jberryhill Nov 2012 #1
OffWithTheirHeads Nov 2012 #2
Live and Learn Nov 2012 #3
jberryhill Nov 2012 #5
Ruby the Liberal Nov 2012 #4
GiaGiovanni Nov 2012 #6
BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #7
OffWithTheirHeads Nov 2012 #8
BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #10
OffWithTheirHeads Nov 2012 #13
BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #14
WinkyDink Nov 2012 #18
jeff47 Nov 2012 #19
Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #9
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 #11
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #12
BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #15
theKed Nov 2012 #17
WinkyDink Nov 2012 #20
Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #21
struggle4progress Nov 2012 #16
BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #22
struggle4progress Nov 2012 #24
struggle4progress Nov 2012 #23

Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:00 PM

1. You know this is a joke, yes?

The documents do not establish the physical presence of the corporations in the car.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:06 PM

2. Didn't sound like a joke to me. Thom either IMO.

Edited to add, so what would?

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:09 PM

3. Probably their money. nt

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:16 PM

5. A corporation is "present" at a couple of places

Its charter address, its headquarters, and its facilities for conducting business. If he is an officer or director in the course of conducting business for the corporation, then the corporation may be present, but not as a separate person from him.

This comes up in the context of serving process on a corporation for example.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:16 PM

4. How does one establish a corporation right to the HOV lane?

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:42 PM

6. Well, you'd have to have 2 or more corporations in the car

 

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:46 PM

7. if the law says that in can be people OR corporations...

 

why would the judge have to rule on corporate personhood?

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Response to BlueMan Votes (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:52 PM

8. Because he was givin a traffic ticket for violating the law

By driving in the carpool lane for driving with himself and a corporation.

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:00 PM

10. you said that the law states that it could be people OR corporations...

 

so all the judge would have to do is decide whether papers of incorporation counts as being a corporation for the purpose of using the carpool lanes.
personhood wouldn't even come into the equation.

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Response to BlueMan Votes (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:27 PM

13. Oh good grief! So how does a corporation prove it is a person?

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:30 PM

14. why would it have to...?

 

you said that the law applies to corporations- so why would they have to prove personhood?

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:51 PM

18. The Supreme Court ruled it so.

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Response to BlueMan Votes (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:58 PM

19. That's already decided, and it's not good for our driver.

A corporation is not literally embodied in it's articles of incorporation.

As mentioned up-thread, there's a few places where a corporation is legally present. None of those apply.

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:58 PM

9. Citizens United did not say that corporations are people.

What Citizens United actually did was to say that corporations and unions have a First Amendment right to make direct expenditures from their treasuries to make independent expenditures to advocate for the election or defeat of a candidate for office. The decision did not overturn the ban on direct contributions to candidates, but it overturned laws that made it illegal for corporations to spend money independently to support a candidate for office.

http://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2012/11/beyond-citizens-united-fixing-american-elections-system

So I don't see how you can really get from extending the First Amendment protections of corporations and unions to this carpool lane stuff.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:02 PM

11. I don't see this aspect mentioned enough on DU. Thanks. nt

PB

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:08 PM

12. Thanks for that but, unfortunately, the facts won't stick.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:32 PM

15. exactly- citizens united is about money as speech, not corporate personhood.

 

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:49 PM

17. More specifically

it interpreted a typographical oversight in the 14th amendment granting "natural persons" and non-natural "persons" (ie. corporations and other legal entities) equal standing with regards to rights - in this case the 1st amendment right to speech.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:05 AM

20. Not so fast there. Justice Kennedy ruled in favor, comparing a corporation to "associations of

citizens":

“If the First Amendment has any force it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the majority.

Just what else does "associations of citizens" MEAN, other than that "corporations are people"?


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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #20)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:20 AM

21. The police cannot break into the offices of DemocraticUnderground LLC and seize all of DU's stuff

without having a good reason. Because DU, LLC, enjoys Constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. But DU is a corporation, not a person. Acknowledging that corporations and unions benefit from constitutional rights is not the same as saying that they are people.

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:48 PM

16. He's gonna get thrown outta court by a really pizzed-off judge

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:26 AM

22. I think you mean that he's going to 'have the book thrown at him' by the judge...

 

being thrown out of court would usually mean that he walks free.

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Response to BlueMan Votes (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 08:44 AM

24. yeah, i mean the judge ain't gonna buy what he's sellin

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #16)

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