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Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:42 PM

"Earned Benefits" ARE NOT "Entitlement programs"!

Okay everybody - let's get this clear, once and for all.
They are "Earned Benefits" - Social Security and Medicare and unemployment INSURANCE.
They are NOT "Entitlement programs"!
They are "Public Investments" - Public education, environmental protection, infrastructure, NASA, NHI, CDC, NPR.
NOT "government spending."
Now, "government waste", that's a little different - Congressional salaries, corporate welfare, military spending.
Are we clear now?
Good.
You're welcome.
Pass it along.

An earlier thread gave me the idea of expanding this.

53 replies, 3214 views

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Arrow 53 replies Author Time Post
Reply "Earned Benefits" ARE NOT "Entitlement programs"! (Original post)
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 OP
msongs Nov 2012 #1
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #3
Warren Stupidity Nov 2012 #18
Matariki Nov 2012 #42
zbdent Nov 2012 #2
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #4
zbdent Nov 2012 #5
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #6
zbdent Nov 2012 #8
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #9
Rocky888 Nov 2012 #7
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #10
FogerRox Nov 2012 #45
freshwest Nov 2012 #39
FogerRox Nov 2012 #11
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #12
FogerRox Nov 2012 #14
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #19
FogerRox Nov 2012 #22
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #16
FogerRox Nov 2012 #25
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #28
AAO Nov 2012 #30
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #13
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #15
FogerRox Nov 2012 #17
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #20
Blanks Nov 2012 #21
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #23
AAO Nov 2012 #32
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #33
Blanks Nov 2012 #37
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #24
Dyedinthewoolliberal Nov 2012 #26
FogerRox Nov 2012 #40
Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2012 #27
GoneOffShore Nov 2012 #49
Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2012 #52
AAO Nov 2012 #29
pnwmom Nov 2012 #31
FogerRox Nov 2012 #41
Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2012 #53
freshwest Nov 2012 #34
Blanks Nov 2012 #38
Recursion Nov 2012 #35
Jamaal510 Nov 2012 #36
Liberalynn Nov 2012 #43
cthulu2016 Nov 2012 #44
FogerRox Nov 2012 #47
justiceischeap Nov 2012 #46
progressoid Nov 2012 #48
texpatriot2004 Nov 2012 #50
Lex Nov 2012 #51

Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:47 PM

1. good luck getting dems to stop parroting right wing propaganda like that nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:50 PM

3. It starts small with the grassroots.

I posted this on my Facebook page and here.

Do the same. Pass it along. Don't let it die.

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:36 PM

18. Good luck on ceding language hijacks to the right.

Liberal did not use to be a dirty word.

An entitlement is a benefit one has a right to, not something somebody is given. An "earned benefit" is an entitlement. Social Security and Medicare are both entitlement programs - beneficiaries are entitled, by law, to the benefits they receive.

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:38 PM

42. It's important and entirely possible.

For instance, we all call ourselves 'progressive' now instead of 'liberal'.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:49 PM

2. They're not entitlement programs

when a Republican/conservative "earned" them ...

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Response to zbdent (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:52 PM

4. Not sure what you're saying here.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:53 PM

5. wow ... do I really have to say ...

???

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Response to zbdent (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:55 PM

6. Well, I don't have a Ouija board implant and I've had three glasses of wine

so, yes.

And it was a good way to kick up the OP, don't you think?

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:56 PM

8. sorry you read this

at least two glasses too late ...

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Response to zbdent (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:58 PM

9. It's okay.

I posted it after three glasses and a nice helping of herbal butter.

Sometimes it's the only way to read DU, especially GD.

For Meta, stronger medicine is needed.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:55 PM

7. I sent my state rep bill Nelson

The same message today. I told him that the democrats needed to stop repeating the republican talking points meant to put a negative spin on good programs started by democrats. And that we should not have to pay with our benefits o that the rich could continue to evade paying taxes while our country goes broke and borrows from china. No compromise on our earned benefits! I will send him and the whitehouse this message daily, as should all of us.

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Response to Rocky888 (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:59 PM

10. Good for you.

We need to re-frame the whole "entitlement" thing.

It's never been about entitlement. It's always been about people paying into the system and getting benefits out of it.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #10)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:52 PM

45. Never? You would be wrong, the word entitled is in the 1935 law 9 times

In fact the legal foundation of SS is the use of the word entitled in the law.

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Response to Rocky888 (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:23 PM

39. +1

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:09 PM

11. Sigh, the word entitled is in the original SS law 9 times

and is part of the legal foundation that makes Social Security work.

But dont let that shit stop you from goody good feeling.

Dont let the fact that when you pay for insurance, you are entitled to benefits stop you from making sense........

Please continue the crazy fun everyone was having, dont let me interrupt.

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Response to FogerRox (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:16 PM

12. Sigh....

You missed the point. It's all about framing.

Even with the language in the law, it's still an INSURANCE program. And we've let Republicans make "entitled" a bad word.

So, let's change the framing here.

Repeat after me: Social Security Benefits, Medicare Benefits, Unemployment Benefits.

See, it's easy.

And now you can stop being a dick.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:34 PM

14. welfare benefits, please delete this OP.

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Response to FogerRox (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:50 PM

19. WTF? Really?

You're a funny fellow you are.


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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:58 PM

22. SO guess how many times the word entitled is in SS disability law?

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:35 PM

16. or democrats could just say, 'damn right they're entitlements; people paid into the system & are

 

entitled to the benefits. warren buffett & donald trump didn't build this; ordinary people did, and they're entitled to what they built."

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:20 PM

25. Right. Its like a contract. like car insurance

you pay your bill, you are entitled to coverage.


A Legal Contract.

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Response to FogerRox (Reply #25)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:43 PM

28. The problem isn't that the word "entitlements" is used. The problem is that the repigs have

 

been allowed to *redefine* entitlement as some kind of welfare & democrats have allowed them to do & largely gone along with the repigs' redefinition.

Democrats should have stated the real definition every time the fuckers tried to twist the word. They didn't, and so I can only surmise they are *complicit*.

If they're complicit, it doesn't matter *what* word is used. The problem is that the folks who should be holding the line & making the counter-case -- aren't. They're going along with the repigs.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:52 PM

30. Thank you.

 

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:31 PM

13. We shouldn't let Republicans define the word entitlement as a bad thing.

I don't have a problem calling social security an entitlement.

People are entitled to it.


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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:35 PM

15. That is the problem though. We have let them get away with making it a "bad thing".

So it's time to take it back and also to make sure we own it.

That along with "Public Investments" versus "Government spending".

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:36 PM

17. I think the GOP is invading DU with sockpuppets

same for daily kos.

Entitled is in the 1935 law 9 times.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/content/ssa-1935-act.html

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Response to FogerRox (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:53 PM

20. Are you calling me a sock puppet?

Really?

Cool.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:57 PM

21. Entitlements are the problem.

Hear me out.

Bill Gates will be eligible for social security benefits in a few years. He's entitled to it; he paid into the system. Alan Greenspan is entitled to social security, and so are a lot of billionaires.

When they say we need to cut entitlements; I say 'we should look at it'. What we don't want to do is remove the safety net. People should be able to work when they are retired and not be punished (financially) for it, but extremely wealthy folks don't need social security benefits and if they can afford health insurance they don't need Medicare either.

Obviously we aren't going to save a huge amount of money by not giving social security benefits to Bill Gates, but the extreme attitude 'entitlements are off the table' prevents discussion in areas where some savings can be found.

As far as entitlements or benefits; which is better. Neither is better if it's said in a condescending tone. Just remind whoever is saying it (in a way that is pissing you off); that this election was won by a guy promising he was going to raise taxes and not allow Medicare to become a voucher system.

I like the term 'NotAVoucherSystem' to describe the benefits that we are entitled to after we've worked to earn them.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:05 PM

23. I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, "entitlement" as a word has

come to define an attitude that indicates something that one feels one should get, ie: "Ann Romney felt that she was entitled to become First Lady." Therein lies the problem. As soon as one says entitlement these days, it puts a negative spin on the benefits that people have paid for.

So, we have to shift the semantic landscape a bit.

And no one in this thread has approached the second part of the OP, which is "Public Investment" vs "Government Spending". I guess that was ignored by everyone who wanted to jump on the other thing.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #23)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:58 PM

32. Difference: she isn't entitled to that - I though, am entitled to SS & Medicare.

 

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #23)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:00 AM

33. "felt she was entitled" means something different from "*is* entitled". republicans use

 

"entitlement" to mean the first, in a sneering, belittling sort of way.

because democrats have allowed it.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #23)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 11:09 AM

37. Social Security really isn't an example of public investment IMHO.

Public works projects, education etc are investments. I think taking care of our senior citizens is fulfilling an obligation; paying back the folks who shoulders we are standing on; so to speak.

I guess from that perspective we should consider our debt to seniors as their 'dividends' for their contribution to society. In fact I think that's how I will refer to social security from now on:

Social Security Dividends.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:11 PM

24. It's now 11PM my time. Any responses to this will now be answered after 5PM tomorrow.

If there are any.

So, have at folks. Or me. Whichever is your inclination. Though I hope it's not me - even though there's been some sniping.

And how about the second part of my premise? Seemed to fall by the wayside.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:25 PM

26. Except there is this; from a poster at Daily Kos


Yup, with all the misinformation floating about, I thought I would post a diary barely worth its own "title".

The word entitled is in the original SS law 9 times:

http://www.nolo.com/...

For you Windows users, control + F, a window opens and you can type in "entitled" and a hightlight appears each time the word appears.

Ok, thank you very much, please return to your previously scheduled distractions.

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Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #26)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:33 PM

40. I always like making my case with a legal foundation if available.

There specific words that mean specific things.

Welfare is means tested, and you get welfare benefits. While SS has no means test, and administered as an Insurance program.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 05:59 PM

49. Thank you! It would appear that that "entitle" word has ticked off a lot of folks

Why, I'm not sure.

But, hey, some folks get ticked about anything.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #49)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 03:35 AM

52. No, I think the fact that the Rs have demonized the word is what's pissing us off, because those

bastards should not be allowed to redefine words to suit their nefarious purposes. The question is, have they redefined it beyond all repair, especially in regards government programs people literally are entitled to?

I hate to cave to them on it, but, if we need to cede on the terminology, by all means, lets beat them at their own game. What would Frank Luntz call it if he were trying to sell it rather than destroy it? Dems need to do a better job at marketing all around, and this is just one aspect.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:47 PM

29. I beg to differ.

 

They are called entitlements because since you pay in all your life, you are by law entitled to those benefits.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:58 PM

31. Of course they're entitlement programs. We're entitled to those funds because

we paid into them for decades.

The Rethugs want us to think the word entitled means the opposite of what it really means. But we don't have to be that dumb.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:35 PM

41. A Sentiment I agree with.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 03:41 AM

53. We don't have to, but too many of the morans out there have already bought into it. Their

ignorance allows the Rs to make them believe any lie. Why do you think they've been working for years to destroy and eliminate public education? Ignorance in the citizenry is bliss for the RW pols and their 1% bosses.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:08 AM

34. AND people recieving those benefits are not consumers, they are CITIZENS.

'Consumers' is a word used by wingnuts like the words 'parasites or moochers.'to separate the 'producers' from them.

It denies the equality of the human race and disrespects those who earned benefits for themselves or their families. As if their work and the taxes they paid in wasn't good enough.

But ask the 'producers' to pay taxes like those other people did, oh, no! A progressive tax took from the reciever of the benefits being discussed, and cost them proportionally as much or more, than the so-called 'producers.' What a con game.

There is no such thing as 'generational welfare' which they accuse the poor and minorities of getting, along with claiming they are 'stupid and lazy.' One could call those who inherited wealth they didn't earn 'generational moochers, lazy and stupid,' as many are dumber than posts.

Time to live up to the Founding Fathers' vision. Equality is a transcendental value, IMHO.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #34)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 11:27 AM

38. Look to the book of Exodus for 'generational welfare'...

Moses led the people out of Egypt and was provided 'manna from the heavens' and birds. Moses generation was banished to the wilderness until that generation passed away.

That's sounds like generational welfare. If God doesn't like it; then why did he do it for his chosen people? Perhaps that book of the bible was put in their to show how God wanted people treated after they had been worked hard and under-appreciated; by providing them (and their children) with food, water and a journey through a natural environment.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:13 AM

35. Yes. They are. You may misunderstand what "entitlement" means (nt)

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:21 AM

36. Thank you! I'm glad somebody finally mentioned this.

The GOP certainly is masterful regarding how they word working class services in order to make them seem intimidating to their supporters. It's the same thing with how they talk about taxes. They always keep it general like, "we refuse to agree on Obama's plan to raise taxes", while conveniently neglecting to mention that taxes would be raised solely for upper-income earners. It's a shame that we have one major party that can't even be straightforward about its ideology...

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:39 PM

43. Regardless of what you call them

the point is Social Security and Medicare were earned and paid for. The benefits should be guarenteed, not bargained away to reduce a deficit created by unpaid for wars and tax breaks for billionaires.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:42 PM

44. Mistaken, but quite assertive in being so.

SS is an entitlement program.

You, quite erroneously, think there is something wrong with being an entitlement program.

The error is yours.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #44)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 04:36 PM

47. A Lovely repartee. A skilled concise bloodless evisceration.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:58 PM

46. I agree with GoneOffShore... sorta. :)

Gone is right in that the Republics have made "entitlement" seem like a bad word. I often joke that if we referred to climate change as an entitlement, they'd line up in droves to do anything to get rid of it--that's how well they have redefined this word.

Those of us with some knowledge know what it really means but that doesn't mean that the negative connotation isn't still there for the average American. It IS a framing issue, whether we want to admit it or not. I've overheard actual conversations of RWNJs talking like people are expecting welfare benefits by getting what they're entitled to receive--SS, MC, etc.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 05:26 PM

48. What's wrong with calling it an entitlement program???

An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.


Let's not let the Douchebag right wing talking heads demonize a perfectly reasonable phrase.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 07:40 PM

50. Government waste = corporate welfare

amen!

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 07:43 PM

51. You paid for Soc Security so you are "entitled" to it.

That is the actual meaning of "entitlements" in this context.


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