General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm sorry, Democrats are just horrible at framing issues.
STOP CALLING IT A TAX HIKE!
If the Democratic Party had any sense, they would uniformly and consistently STOP calling it a "tax hike for the rich."
Simply call it what it is. Here are couple choices:
-- a return to the tax rates we had under the prosperous Clinton years
-- the end of the Bush tax cuts (that disproportionately favored the rich)
There is power in the choice of words. People just don't want to hear about a tax hike. Calling it a tax hike just plays into the hands of the Republicans. Then they cry "class warfare" and bullshit about how it will hurt the economy.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)They've been enacting class warfare on the rest of us since Reagan.
I would encourage Democrats to frame the argument to reflect that.
garybeck
(9,942 posts)But there are a lot of people in the middle who don't like to hear the words "raise taxes" under any circumstances. If you reframe it you can win some of those people over. it's important to have as much support as possible. this will turn more people against Bohner and the other republicrants who are trying to draw a line in the sand.
RedCloud
(9,230 posts)That way the uninformed get info in a meaningful way.
garybeck
(9,942 posts)ProudProgressiveNow
(6,129 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)he was reelected. There's no need to make the language flowery when people know and agree with this policy.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)hands on a competent wordsmith a la Frank Luntz in order to frame our message in terms that the average idiot can understand. Is it that we eschew using such a RW tactic or do we believe the justness of our cause will shine through so no framing is necessary. (IMO, if it's choice #2 we are well and truly screwed!).
garybeck
(9,942 posts)they let the Republicans walk all over them with terminology that really affects the electorate.....
"right to life" vs. "abortion rights" is a HORRIBLE framing job.
"tax cuts" vs. "tax hike" is a horrible framing job
why are people still saying "tax and spend" democrats?
why are we still hearing that the dems are about "big government" and the repubs are about "small governent" and "freedom" when the truth is therepublicans what to stick their noses in your bedroom, your pot stash, and your planned parenthood office. just about the only place they don't want to stick their noses is in your gun cabinet. and it's the framing that is the reason still so many people think the dems are responsible for high deficits, when the truth is the opposite.
They just don't understand, words count. framing really affects the way people think. It's Orwellian but it's true and it works.
ProudProgressiveNow
(6,129 posts)kentuck
(111,079 posts)But the Repubs only want to give a bigger tax cut for the wealthy.
msongs
(67,395 posts)bluestate10
(10,942 posts)ErikJ
(6,335 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)Ashened
(25 posts)While, to be honest, we did seem clumsier than usual on the issues, the general strategy still seems to be working.
99Forever
(14,524 posts).. if they would take a lesson from well intentioned people like the OP?
Winning elections is one thing, what you do while IN OFFICE is far more important. And that ain't sarcasm.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The fact is what little gets done here is generally done by Democrats too.
The OP is lost in the bubble, it sounds like you are too.
99Forever
(14,524 posts).. in insulting people than considering others perspectives or having a conversation.
Have a wonderful day.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)How's that, better?
99Forever
(14,524 posts)You've made it all the way to ignored! Aren't you proud "Mildred"?
Bub bye.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...but we can do better as a whole.
regards
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I'm a "crazed leftist", it's not that I agree with the "moderate" let's-not-change-things-too-much-I'm-so-comfortable wing of the party, but this babble about messaging, which is useful in it's way, is not a substitute for good policy, good tactics, good strategy. In the long run, you must govern well, not merely look nice and talk nice and be a good salesman, that's what Romney just failed so spectacularly with.
I do realize that the first rule of US politics is get to elected and stay in office. But that's not enough.
And secondly, we have been kicking the Republicans butts, particularly Obama has, as well as I've seen in a very long time, and I just have to laugh at people that want to offer him "advice", which usually turns out to mean they disagree with his policy or personnel choices, as I often do, or they disagree with his tactical or strategic choices, which I find Edit: nearly flawless (like I said I'm "crazed" .
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)If our side can't learn to sell said policy it than becomes irrelevant look at the ACA we allowed the right to term it Obama care and make it a terrible thing instead of the good policy it was intended to be.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)They OWN the Mighty Wurlitzer, lock stock and barrel, they spent billions, and they LOST big. Who is not getting the message here?
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)Americans as a whole have a very short attention span when it comes to politics and for the most part a majority have to constantly be spoon fed and sold on a policy or they lose interest and just go with what they have heard. Taxes are a touchy subject yes we won on a policy of raising taxes in the wealthy but now it's up to us to continue selling that being a good idea and not let the other side sell it cause than we lose.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)How bad do they have to lose before we are allowed to say we might be competent, sometimes?
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)We did a decent job framing things but we didn't exactly have tough competition in Romney and his ilk. The problem is we have a problem with long term framing look at happened between 2008 and 2010 because we didn't continue selling these issues to the people as a whole instead we said things like well our policies speak for themselves and lived in a denial that anyone could see these things as bad.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Before I continue this conversation, I want your answer to that question.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)Up to this point I would say no. They have been persistent in their message since the 80s which is to completely decimate the lower economic ranks and force everyone not them into serfdom they take each election they lose in stride and still somehow manage to get their way and wind up back in power again the only way I can understand it is they manage to frame the issues against us again and again without as much as I word of argument from our side
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Last edited Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:07 AM - Edit history (1)
1.) I know what you are talking about, I'm an old hippie, I watched it all.
2.) The problem was not framing, the problem was politics. We had a dramatic political reaction to the civil insurrections and reform laws passed in the 60s and 70s: voting rights, civil rights, women's rights, FOIA, primary reforms, and politicians of all stripes have had to deal with that or get un-elected; the Southern Strategy, that was the "framing" issue, and all that hippie shit was in disrepute.
3.) Now, 30 years on, we are seeing generational change, the old angry white guys who took really good care of themselves and screw everyone else are dying off, and the products of those reforms I mentioned are coming to maturity, coming to power (Edit: Obama, all those women Senators, etc.) I've been watching it happen here in California for 20 years or so, we used to be a Republican State, now they are fringe politicians here.
4.) Turnout is all you need to explain 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, it's the demographics. You want to kick ass forever, all we gotta do is get our voters out, and there are much more direct and effective methods than "framing".
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)One advantage that republicans have is they repeat shit over and over like parrots. While democrats use un-necessarily obtuse language and don't drive home points.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Only the 1% pay less than 15%
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)All I found was Obama saying:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/09/politics/obama-fiscal-cliff/index.html
garybeck
(9,942 posts)he said we need to ask the rich folks to may more taxes (paraphrased) many many times.
every time he said that, he should have just pointed out that we need to return to the Clinton era tax schedule, when we had a growing economy and a budget surplus. and leave it at that.
when he says we need to raise taxes on the rich, it's like saying the tax rates have always been what they are and he wants to raise them for a group of people.
the important point is that we are just returning to what the taxes were in the 90s and it worked great back then.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)Paladin
(28,253 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Because they aren't being ended - they are being allowed to expire.
/frank_luntz_mode
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Cases in point (note the plural) - Todd Akin, Richard Mourdach, just on women & rape.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)Oh, wait....nevermind.