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Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:16 PM

I'm sorry, Democrats are just horrible at framing issues.

STOP CALLING IT A TAX HIKE!

If the Democratic Party had any sense, they would uniformly and consistently STOP calling it a "tax hike for the rich."

Simply call it what it is. Here are couple choices:

-- a return to the tax rates we had under the prosperous Clinton years

-- the end of the Bush tax cuts (that disproportionately favored the rich)

There is power in the choice of words. People just don't want to hear about a tax hike. Calling it a tax hike just plays into the hands of the Republicans. Then they cry "class warfare" and bullshit about how it will hurt the economy.

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Reply I'm sorry, Democrats are just horrible at framing issues. (Original post)
garybeck Nov 2012 OP
Barack_America Nov 2012 #1
garybeck Nov 2012 #2
RedCloud Nov 2012 #3
garybeck Nov 2012 #6
ProudProgressiveNow Nov 2012 #13
justiceischeap Nov 2012 #4
COLGATE4 Nov 2012 #5
garybeck Nov 2012 #8
ProudProgressiveNow Nov 2012 #15
kentuck Nov 2012 #7
msongs Nov 2012 #9
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #18
ErikJ Nov 2012 #10
bemildred Nov 2012 #11
Ashened Nov 2012 #12
99Forever Nov 2012 #14
bemildred Nov 2012 #20
99Forever Nov 2012 #21
bemildred Nov 2012 #22
99Forever Nov 2012 #23
uponit7771 Nov 2012 #28
bemildred Nov 2012 #29
Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #31
bemildred Nov 2012 #32
Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #33
bemildred Nov 2012 #34
Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #35
bemildred Nov 2012 #36
Arcanetrance Nov 2012 #37
bemildred Nov 2012 #38
bluestate10 Nov 2012 #16
demwing Nov 2012 #17
KurtNYC Nov 2012 #19
garybeck Nov 2012 #26
Politicub Nov 2012 #24
Paladin Nov 2012 #30
Ruby the Liberal Nov 2012 #25
backscatter712 Nov 2012 #27
OldDem2012 Nov 2012 #39

Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:21 PM

1. I don't mind hearing about a "tax hike" for the rich.

They've been enacting class warfare on the rest of us since Reagan.

I would encourage Democrats to frame the argument to reflect that.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:23 PM

2. I don't mind it either.

But there are a lot of people in the middle who don't like to hear the words "raise taxes" under any circumstances. If you reframe it you can win some of those people over. it's important to have as much support as possible. this will turn more people against Bohner and the other republicrants who are trying to draw a line in the sand.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:29 PM

3. I want "End the Bush tax hollidays for the wealthy"

That way the uninformed get info in a meaningful way.

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Response to RedCloud (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:00 PM

6. egg-zactly. n't

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Response to RedCloud (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:56 PM

13. +1000 nt

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:30 PM

4. The Obama campaign ran on calling it higher taxes for the rich

he was reelected. There's no need to make the language flowery when people know and agree with this policy.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:41 PM

5. I fail to understand why we as a party cannot put our

hands on a competent wordsmith a la Frank Luntz in order to frame our message in terms that the average idiot can understand. Is it that we eschew using such a RW tactic or do we believe the justness of our cause will shine through so no framing is necessary. (IMO, if it's choice #2 we are well and truly screwed!).

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:07 PM

8. I agree. Dems just don't get what framing is.

they let the Republicans walk all over them with terminology that really affects the electorate.....

"right to life" vs. "abortion rights" is a HORRIBLE framing job.

"tax cuts" vs. "tax hike" is a horrible framing job

why are people still saying "tax and spend" democrats?

why are we still hearing that the dems are about "big government" and the repubs are about "small governent" and "freedom" when the truth is therepublicans what to stick their noses in your bedroom, your pot stash, and your planned parenthood office. just about the only place they don't want to stick their noses is in your gun cabinet. and it's the framing that is the reason still so many people think the dems are responsible for high deficits, when the truth is the opposite.

They just don't understand, words count. framing really affects the way people think. It's Orwellian but it's true and it works.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:57 PM

15. +1 nt

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:03 PM

7. A tax cut for everyone....

But the Repubs only want to give a bigger tax cut for the wealthy.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:43 PM

9. how about "welfare for millionaires"? nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:00 PM

18. Too incendiary. "Fair Tax Rates for all" sounds more accurate and acceptable. nt

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:46 PM

10. Restore the Pre-Bush tax rates on rich when we had a budget surplus.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:46 PM

11. I guess that's why we always lose elections.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:53 PM

12. I'm with bemildred

While, to be honest, we did seem clumsier than usual on the issues, the general strategy still seems to be working.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:57 PM

14. Imagine what Dems could accomplish....

.. if they would take a lesson from well intentioned people like the OP?

Winning elections is one thing, what you do while IN OFFICE is far more important. And that ain't sarcasm.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #14)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:11 PM

20. You assume your own conclusion.

The fact is what little gets done here is generally done by Democrats too.
The OP is lost in the bubble, it sounds like you are too.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:15 PM

21. I guess you are more interested...

.. in insulting people than considering others perspectives or having a conversation.

Have a wonderful day.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #21)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:17 PM

22. I think you are insulting Democrats with your hand-wringing twaddle.

How's that, better?

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Response to bemildred (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:20 PM

23. Yay for you!

You've made it all the way to ignored! Aren't you proud "Mildred"?


Bub bye.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:10 PM

28. Better discipline than great message no doubt in my mind. Not that the messages are horrible...

...but we can do better as a whole.

regards

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #28)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 06:51 AM

29. I'm just looking for a little equity here.

I'm a "crazed leftist", it's not that I agree with the "moderate" let's-not-change-things-too-much-I'm-so-comfortable wing of the party, but this babble about messaging, which is useful in it's way, is not a substitute for good policy, good tactics, good strategy. In the long run, you must govern well, not merely look nice and talk nice and be a good salesman, that's what Romney just failed so spectacularly with.

I do realize that the first rule of US politics is get to elected and stay in office. But that's not enough.

And secondly, we have been kicking the Republicans butts, particularly Obama has, as well as I've seen in a very long time, and I just have to laugh at people that want to offer him "advice", which usually turns out to mean they disagree with his policy or personnel choices, as I often do, or they disagree with his tactical or strategic choices, which I find Edit: nearly flawless (like I said I'm "crazed").

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Response to bemildred (Reply #29)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:12 AM

31. Good policy will only go so far

If our side can't learn to sell said policy it than becomes irrelevant look at the ACA we allowed the right to term it Obama care and make it a terrible thing instead of the good policy it was intended to be.

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:38 AM

32. So how did we just kick their asses six ways from Sunday?

They OWN the Mighty Wurlitzer, lock stock and barrel, they spent billions, and they LOST big. Who is not getting the message here?

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Response to bemildred (Reply #32)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:49 AM

33. Yes we just won

Americans as a whole have a very short attention span when it comes to politics and for the most part a majority have to constantly be spoon fed and sold on a policy or they lose interest and just go with what they have heard. Taxes are a touchy subject yes we won on a policy of raising taxes in the wealthy but now it's up to us to continue selling that being a good idea and not let the other side sell it cause than we lose.

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:02 AM

34. Can we "frame issues" or not? Can we admit the Pubbies are really bad at framing issues?

How bad do they have to lose before we are allowed to say we might be competent, sometimes?

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Response to bemildred (Reply #34)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:10 AM

35. As i said we just won

We did a decent job framing things but we didn't exactly have tough competition in Romney and his ilk. The problem is we have a problem with long term framing look at happened between 2008 and 2010 because we didn't continue selling these issues to the people as a whole instead we said things like well our policies speak for themselves and lived in a denial that anyone could see these things as bad.

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #35)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:23 AM

36. Do the Pubbies have a problem with long-term framing too, or is it just us?

Before I continue this conversation, I want your answer to that question.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:31 AM

37. Honestly

Up to this point I would say no. They have been persistent in their message since the 80s which is to completely decimate the lower economic ranks and force everyone not them into serfdom they take each election they lose in stride and still somehow manage to get their way and wind up back in power again the only way I can understand it is they manage to frame the issues against us again and again without as much as I word of argument from our side

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:46 AM

38. OK, thanks.

Last edited Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:07 AM - Edit history (1)

1.) I know what you are talking about, I'm an old hippie, I watched it all.

2.) The problem was not framing, the problem was politics. We had a dramatic political reaction to the civil insurrections and reform laws passed in the 60s and 70s: voting rights, civil rights, women's rights, FOIA, primary reforms, and politicians of all stripes have had to deal with that or get un-elected; the Southern Strategy, that was the "framing" issue, and all that hippie shit was in disrepute.

3.) Now, 30 years on, we are seeing generational change, the old angry white guys who took really good care of themselves and screw everyone else are dying off, and the products of those reforms I mentioned are coming to maturity, coming to power (Edit: Obama, all those women Senators, etc.) I've been watching it happen here in California for 20 years or so, we used to be a Republican State, now they are fringe politicians here.

4.) Turnout is all you need to explain 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, it's the demographics. You want to kick ass forever, all we gotta do is get our voters out, and there are much more direct and effective methods than "framing".

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:58 PM

16. Fair tax rates should be the only words used.

One advantage that republicans have is they repeat shit over and over like parrots. While democrats use un-necessarily obtuse language and don't drive home points.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:59 PM

17. Tax Give-aways to the Rich

Only the 1% pay less than 15%

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:09 PM

19. Do you have a quote where Obama calls it a "tax hike" ?

All I found was Obama saying:

"That makes no sense. It would be bad for the economy," he told a White House gathering of what aides described as middle class Americans. "Let's extend middle class tax cuts right now. Let's do that right now. That one step would give millions of families, 98% of Americans, 97% of small businesses, the certainty that they need going into the new year."


http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/09/politics/obama-fiscal-cliff/index.html

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:33 PM

26. I saw him say it about 25 times during the campaign. he didn't say "hike" but

he said we need to ask the rich folks to may more taxes (paraphrased) many many times.

every time he said that, he should have just pointed out that we need to return to the Clinton era tax schedule, when we had a growing economy and a budget surplus. and leave it at that.

when he says we need to raise taxes on the rich, it's like saying the tax rates have always been what they are and he wants to raise them for a group of people.

the important point is that we are just returning to what the taxes were in the 90s and it worked great back then.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:21 PM

24. The dems won the election. They know how to frame issues just fine. n/t

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Response to Politicub (Reply #24)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:09 AM

30. Bullseye. Thank You. (nt)

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:23 PM

25. End, or expire?

Because they aren't being ended - they are being allowed to expire.

/frank_luntz_mode

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:45 PM

27. Looks like the GOP lost their framing mojo this election cycle...

Cases in point (note the plural) - Todd Akin, Richard Mourdach, just on women & rape.

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Response to garybeck (Original post)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:57 AM

39. Yeah...it really back-fired on the President's reelection campaign, didn't it?....

Oh, wait....nevermind.

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