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Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:20 AM

Rachel had it Right, now DU is getting it wrong.

It is hard for me to accept what is happening AGAIN at DU.

I joined DU in 2007 in the lead up to the 2008 election. It was a heady time and I had some great conversations on here. I stayed pretty active until the 2010 election when things went Batshit crazy on here. The Progressive purists took control of the boards and in many ways, took control of the election. They demanded party purity or they wouldn't vote, or they would vote Green or vote Libertarian if needed. They shook their fists and lost the Congress. At the same time they ranted and raved about the Tea Party that was staring them back in the mirror.

In 2011, my son was one of the first dozen kids to Occupy Zuccoti square. I quickly followed in Portland. For months I was able to see some more amazing conversations and street education starting to happen between young people trying to figure out our economic and political system. I saw the DIY mentality grow and grow in the midst of discussions between backwoods do-it-yourselfer hippies, urban farmers, street crafters, libertarians, anarchists, University professors and even the occasional courageous conservative. It was in the conversations that the movement grew. It was a willingness to occupy a space and talk with anyone and everyone about the troubles facing the young people of America. During that time I didn't bother with discussion boards like DU, I was too busy talking in the streets and at other gatherings of live bodies.

So Obama won. So by a 2.7% margin we defeated the other guy. Through clever campaigning we managed to get 332 electoral votes to the other guy's 206. Why? Because the other guy was a complete douchebag surrounded by a sycophantic media and supported by a lot of money. Despite all of that we won. Celebrate, we earned it.

But now I see the same old tired intransigent purists starting to dominate the conversations again. Instead of taking an Occupy stance of listening, discussing, adjusting and learning, the hardcore issue oriented DUers are talking about "no compromise" "mandate" (which there wasn't BTW, no matter how much you deceive yourself), "jam it down their throats", etc. I look in the mirror here at DU and start to see DU Tea Party reflection all over again.

It is my belief that Rachel Maddow had it correct. Progress in our Democracy is dependent on the strength of BOTH Conservative and Liberal ideas. It is simple Hegelian dialectic: Thesis meets Antithesis and creates Synthesis. We must strongly present our best arguments, hear their best arguments, debate, compromise and then reach a new level. Progress. I am just as concerned about unchecked Liberal Future Dreams as I am about Conservative knuckle-dragging.

I refuse to give into the temptation to lump all of my fellow Americans who hold Conservative values with Ted Nugent, Mitt Romney and Pat Robertson. It is false.
I refuse to adopt the hateful tactics of RedState, Rush Limbaugh, Faux News and Newt Gingrich. Propaganda and name-calling are not Ideas. They are not the product they are the marketing.
I refuse to be an ideologue, frozen in my opinion, unable to risk thinking outside my box. I choose to grow through adversity, courage and love.

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Reply Rachel had it Right, now DU is getting it wrong. (Original post)
CaptJasHook Nov 2012 OP
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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:22 AM

1. strength of conservative ideas? Can you list some good conservative ideas, please?

I am serious about this - I really can't come up with any of those....admitted long time, mid 50s, very left in ideology here.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:26 AM

5. Conservative or conservative?

Cause, there is a distinction to be made.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:26 AM

6. Obamacare.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:27 AM

11. Yup

And a few others over the years.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:30 AM

18. Privatized, for-profit healthcare is a shitty idea n/t

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:38 AM

32. +1000

Better than nothing, but a shitty idea.

Actually, I'm not sure it is better than nothing, if it prevents more progress being made.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:42 PM

126. Well, it WAS better than nothing for me.

I am on PCIP, the Obamacare pre-existing condition insurance, and was able to get a surgery that I desperately needed. My friend just got on the insurance as well, and was diagnosed with cancer. Without this insurance, she would die.

Single-payer would be ideal, no doubt. But this insurance is saving lives now, and the majority of it is not even in effect yet. So no, it's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than nothing.

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Response to MoonchildCA (Reply #126)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:29 PM

190. Say what you will about the Affordable Care Act. It helped the parents of the kid who drums in my

son's band. He's a childhood cancer survivor. One WHALE of a pre-existing condition. His parents, who are rather conservative and devout Catholics (even though they condone their son's girlfriend living with him in their home and they're awfully mellow and non-judgmental) mentioned how grateful they were that they were going to be able to keep Matt covered by their insurance until he's 26. It wasn't Anthem or Kaiser or HealthNet or whatever that did that. It certainly wasn't wrongney & company. It was OBAMA, and his Affordable Care Act. It's not perfect (I was one of many pushing for the public option since we weren't able to get single-payer off the ground) but it's a start. For Matt's mom and dad, it's a lot more than that. It's a blessing and a huge sigh of relief!!!! Might actually have made them vote for Obama this time, although I haven't asked yet.

I'll take bird-IN-the-hand-versus-a-bunch-of-pie-in-the-sky-beating-around-the-bush ANY day. It's a LOT better than nothing, and certainly TONS better, for that family in particular, than leaving the situation where it was!!!

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Response to calimary (Reply #190)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:17 AM

500. I Love it!

All my generic drugs (and there are many) cost me ZIP!

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Response to calimary (Reply #190)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 04:19 PM

545. My son is covered until he is 31 1/2. Humana, I think.

I am on a totally separate policy set up by the state. It's a non profit that covers people who have been rejected by the insurance companies set up in the early 90's called Cover Colorado. I had cancer and some other stuff. The premiums are still very expensive. My husband and son are on the same policy at like a third of what mine is. I agree with you about the ACA.

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Response to MoonchildCA (Reply #126)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:52 PM

303. But better than nothing is still not good. And what about those millions for whom

 

it will do nothing? Screw them?

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #303)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:00 PM

340. ObamaCare Is Good.. It's saving Lives and making lives Easier.

It hasn't all kicked in yet and it's a Good Foundation for getting an even Better health Care System down the road when we have a Majority in the House. If the Dems don't stay home at Mid Term.

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Response to Cha (Reply #340)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:02 PM

383. No, it isn't. It does suck less, but that is not good, and you didn't answer the question. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #383)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:35 PM

390. You're right..ObamaCare isn't just "good" ..it's a GREAT Foundation! LOVE IT!

EDIT to ADD "CARE" to Obama.. I had shortened ObamaCare to Obama! lol

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Response to Cha (Reply #390)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:08 PM

401. That's not what was written, and you still haven't answered the question. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #401)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:27 PM

440. Both my kids (20,22) have preexisting conditions, but can be on my health ins until 26.

 

Otherwise they would be in a precarious position and we'd have to pay for doctors and drugs out of pocket ( can't afford).

So, yes I love Obamacare!

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #401)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:36 AM

515. What about the millions who won't be helped right now?

It's horrible of course. Have you called your rep or senator today to tell them what you think and want? We have to keep pushing. There is no rest in any struggle and our struggle is for all sentient beings.

You seem distraught that the law passed and that we begin to change the system, oh so slowly. I hope that you will find some relief on this and get the medical care you need when you need it!

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #515)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 03:24 PM

541. Not the topic. When Sekhmets Daughter and I started this it was in response to the idea of

 

good ideas coming from conservatives, not about the ACA per se. I'm glad we got something, and as I have stated previously, the ACA is better than nothing, just not that much better.

I find it interesting that many of the Team 'D' shouters insist on trying to draw a comparison between this corporate bonanza and Social Security when the very foundations of each are diametrically opposed, one being a guaranteed government benefit and the other a private, for-profit requirement. I think we have barely begun to see the huge flaws of this disaster-in-waiting, and it hasn't even been fully implemented yet. But, that is a debate I'm sure we will have in the future.

In answer to your question, that is why I say that ACA is, in fact, better than nothing.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #541)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 11:15 AM

563. And "nothing" is exactly

what we would have today had not President Obama skillfully cut the best deal possible with the anti-American, Tea-Party jihadist Republicans who were blocking him at every step.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #563)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 01:16 PM

564. Do any of you people ever actually read what is written? You're like the 5th

 

"President Obama is just the bestest President anybody has ever had anywhere, anytime" cheerleader to come into this with your bogus outrage over a perceived slight to your BFF.

Read this very slowly, sound out all the words if you need to; This is not a conversation about the ACA.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #564)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 01:30 PM

565. Believe me when I say

that I actually did read what you wrote, and understood every word. Your condescending replies to me and others on this thread are exactly what one would expect from your ilk. You expect your anti-Democratic vomit to be taken as gospel, and your defense is that the rest of us are President Obama's "cheerleaders."

You and your FR-like "you people" positions are laughable, but sad.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #565)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 02:09 PM

566. Condescending? Yes. "Freeper"!? You've got to be kidding.

 



Now, if you have anything else to say, I'll be right here to expose you for the foreseeable future. And just so you know, I'm probably going to wear out my "I told you so" .gif over the next few years.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #566)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 03:29 PM

568. I did not call

you a Freeper, I said that your statements containing the phrase "you people" sound very FR-like. You actually sound more like a PUMA leftover to me...

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Response to billh58 (Reply #568)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 03:43 PM

570. Don't worry, I don't alert on my own behalf. I couldn't care less what name someone calls me.

 

I just learned what a PUMA is on DU 2 days ago, and I have not liked nor supported Hillary Clinton since her sell out-to as the junior Senator from from Tata 10 or so years ago.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #570)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 03:53 PM

571. I think that we

are on the same side, but snark always provokes my evil twin who sometimes takes the keyboard away from me.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #571)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 04:02 PM

572. I think we might be the same person.

 

That Scootaloo post post yesterday got me back to DailyKos again. I haven't been there for so long I lost my 5th karma bar.


Peace.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #303)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 02:01 AM

487. Perfection can only be acheived thru progress.

 

FORWARD 2014 ARE YOU FIRED UP?

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #487)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 03:14 AM

493. Perfection cannot be achieved at all, and nobody is asking for perfection. But like the other person

 

that replied, you have not answered the question. What about the millions for whom this will be of no help at all?

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #493)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:54 AM

524. The "perfection" you wish for is government sponsered single payer national health care.

 

You have not answered anything and in fact diminished the tenor of the thread. If you need someone to hold your hand and spoon feed it to you see the post below #74. Geez Louise.

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #524)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 03:34 PM

542. You're the only one talking about perfection here, and single payer will not be perfect either.

 

The OP is not just wrong, it is a lie.

Every step forward that this nation has taken in its history has been made less by the fact that it has had to accommodate the short-sighted idiocy of greed, bigotry, and prejudice that currently calls itself conservatism to one degree or another. There is no idea so good that it is not diminished by the insistent voices of the evil and their dim-witted accomplices.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:10 PM

74. It is the first step...

Nothing in the US is ever accomplished in one fell swoop. Social Security was introduced incrementally as was Medicare, then gradually expanded by succeeding Democratic congresses.

Democrats wonder why the Republicans seized power in 1994 and except for a brief period from 2006 to 2010, kept it.... It's because we have all the patience of 2-year-olds. The GOP has been working toward the same agenda since 1980. They accept the occasional set back as an aberration, re-group and move forward again. They will do it again if we continue to behave as 2-year-olds.

Ever know anyone who lived in Section 8 housing? Or owned section 8 housing. It's a big freaking mess...and throwing more money at it will not solve the problems of drug dealers ruining the lives of of good people. Evict a drug dealer from his Section 8 housing and end up in court and ordered to pay the dealer $7,000. Even though the eviction was prompted by hard working poor people complaining about the drugs being peddled by their neighbors. True story....

In 2009 I worked with a young black man, a college grad married to a nurse. They bought a brand new condo in 2006 after saving for years for a down payment. By 2009 the housing market was in such a shambles that large swaths of his condominium were turned into Section 8 housing. He would come in every morning and give us the report of how many times the police had to come to his building, or the next, the night before. A crack dealer lived in the unit above his. Fights broke out every night, garbage was strewn everywhere, and things like unwanted furniture and mattresses decorated the green spaces... His new condominium, just a few years old, looked like the worst housing in the projects found in many inner cities. (This is Palm Beach County, FL, btw) Meanwhile he is paying a mortgage which he can't even refinance because the value of his home was destroyed beyond the normal drop in real estate values here. Another true story....

Republicans behave as though everyone receiving government assistance is a deadbeat, lazy, drug user. Democrats behave as though there is no such animal. Between the 2 extremes are real people, caught in real horror stories.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #74)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:48 PM

134. yep

got a friend just like these described.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #134)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:52 PM

139. We need to be realistic about these issues....

Those trapped in toxic environments will continue to suffer if we don't.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #139)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:12 PM

170. It leaves millions in an even more toxic environment. One idea being not quite as bad as another

 

does not make it a good idea. That's how we got here, and if we're not vigorous in our objections to the direction we're still headed, we will end up in a far worse situation than we are now.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #170)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:15 PM

174. Agreed, but we cannot be blind to the real problems within the system

they fuel the dialogue of obstruction.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #174)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:44 PM

204. Right. The real problem being that we have nobody working for us.

 

Put aside all of the huge problems that the misnamed ACA has, and just look at the process that the President chose to make it happen. Who was the very first person he talked to? Was it a doctor? A citizen's group? Even a legislator? No, it was the head lobbyist for the pharmaceutical industry.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #204)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:20 PM

252. He self-identifies as a Blue Dog Democrat....

Did you think the color of his skin made him a Liberal? In a different age he would have been a Liberal Republican.

All politics is the art of the possible. Do you think he hadn't heard about the meeting to nullify his presidency before the book came out? I do not like the ACA anymore than do you...but should we have abandoned those with pre-existing conditions, or the young people who are now insured on their parents policies, or those who will benefit from the expanded medicaid coverage because the bill is not to our liking? It is a start...as more people see the benefits, the greater will be the base for those who want to go to a single-payer, universal system.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #252)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:32 PM

274. That's not what I said. This thread is about the asinine notion that we need blend two completely

 

opposing ideologies and that that will somehow yield the best results.

The ACA was simply an example you picked to demonstrate a good conservative idea and I'm pointing out that it is not a good idea, but merely a slightly less shitty one than what we had.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #274)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:35 PM

278. Got it...

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #274)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:45 PM

298. Yet

When Conservatives can no longer say that Health care for all is a bad idea, because we can prove it, then their arguments against Universal health care will crumble.

They only argument they have left at this point is the Government Bureaucracies are somehow worse than Private bureaucracies. An idea that is ridiculous on its surface.

I predict Universal Healthcare within the next generation. If that is too long for some people, consider how long it took Civil Rights.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #298)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:04 PM

313. Another bankrupt notion you are using to distract from the bad idea you wrote in the OP.

 

The conservatives knew that they had no argument back in 1993. Gingrich wrote a memo explicitly stating that if Hillary Clinton were to get a health care plan through, their party would become irrelevant and they would never hold power again. That was the origin of the Dole plan that we now call Obamacare. It was devised and deigned specifically to fail the people and bankrupt the system.

I would be more than happy to go on all day about the deficits and inevitable outcomes of the ACA, but this thread is about your OP, not the ACA.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #274)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:40 PM

442. I had to think about this for a bit.

I don't think progressive intransigence is of any greater value than conservative or tea party intransigence, or any less harmful. I don't believe most of the country is ready to accept single-payer, universal health care. I wish they were, but wishing doesn't make it true. I am hoping that the ACA will become popular enough that people will begin thinking in a more positive way of single-payer. If we can deliver enough defeats to right-wingers over the next decade or so, we will be in a much better position to once-and-for-all settle this issue in a way that benefits all Americans. I am ideologically progressive/liberal (I can not quite make out the distinction) but I am very pragmatic when it comes to process. I have been watching Democrats throw away their advantages for 40 years. Perhaps it would be more fair to say that I have been watching Republicans steal the Democratic advantages by poisoning the message, but either way the outcome has been the same. In the world's richest nation we have people who work full time jobs and still live in poverty. In the world's richest nation the minimum wage is $7.25 a hour...the minimum wage in Australia is $15.51 an hour and the Aussie dollar is pretty much on a par with our own. My absolute greatest fear right now is that the president will find himself pushed into failure by his own base, because Republicans have become much better at controlling the narrative. If they succeed in making him look unwilling to compromise, 2014 and 2016 could have less favorable outcomes than we desire.

As an example of what I'm saying....have you noticed how quickly Republicans are now talking about immigration reform? Where are the freaking Democratic voices....right now? Two more weeks of Republicans talking favorably about immigration reform while Democrats gaze at their navels will move the advantage right out of our court and into theirs. It's about the messaging wars and Democrats too frequently give up the advantage.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #442)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:05 AM

518. Good comment ! Republicans are skilled and ruthless with messaging. Their lack of morality adds

to their power in messaging.

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Response to Maineman (Reply #518)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:14 AM

529. Exactly on point...

Their total lack of any sincere moral standards has been, perhaps, their most powerful too.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #442)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:30 AM

522. On the money and very well written.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #442)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 04:09 PM

544. You're right to worry about the republicans taking Democratic positions away, but the answer

 

is not for the Democrats to knuckle under to the them. The best solution to that potential problem is for the Democrats to make it impossible by demanding that those ideas be implemented.

Of course that causes another problem for the Democratic Party, it is that the leaders of the party don't want to implement any of those ideas. Our party doesn't have an ideological problem, it has a leadership problem.

I don't understand why you believe that Americans are against the idea of single payer, especially in light of the fact that the two best proposals for single payer health care were feared so much that the Democrats won't even allow them to be proposed. What American in their right mind would refuse it when they understand that they will have access to any doctor they choose, that their families, friends, and neighbors will have the same, that all of their health care needs and decisions will be strictly up to them and their doctors, and that it will allow them to keep more of their own money?

We have both watched Democrats cut our throats for decades, but isn't the answer to that problem Democrats insisting that they stop doing it? Why are they constantly failing to press their advantage? One of the few successes the Democrats have had these past two years has been to show the nation just who, in fact, have been obstructing progress. Why do you think that can't be continued?

We are heading down a road that will lead to a hell on earth few of us can imagine. Appeasing and complying with the demands of those that put us on this road is not an answer.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #544)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:30 PM

549. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes here...just a bit.

The Democrats won't allow them to be proposed? Please explain.

I know why the Republicans fought so hard to kill Hillary's plan, but the Dems? President Obama won a bit over 50% of the popular vote and he didn't run on universal health care. Fully 47% of the nation opposes even something as banal as the ACA. Since 1992 the GOP has effectively poisoned the liberal message and liberals have allowed them to do so. How many members of congress actually call themselves liberal or progressive? We have much work to do to reverse the past 20 years.

On several other threads DUers are objecting to the use of the word Entitlement...even they don't seem to understand that to be Entitled to something is a good thing.

Politics in the US is cyclical....and we have entered into a new cycle that is more favorable to the liberal message....if, and this is a big if, we don't scare away moderates before they have a chance to learn how good liberal policies are for them. Since 1980 the Republicans moved slowly but surely to destroy all the great things liberals have done for the nation. They began with the private sector unions. They have convinced fully half the population that government is the problem. They lured people in with tax cuts, and to be honest most working people needed those tax cuts as inflation and wage stagnation left them scrambling to make ends meet. The GOP had become so confident in their messaging wars and strategies that they committed the cardinal sin of politics....overreach. The obstruction of the 2012 congress and the absurdities of the abortion/birth control wars went too far and women woke up...as did the young, Latinos and the Asian community...African Americans were energized by the threat of disfranchisement.

The election of 2010 should have taught you all about overreach. Obama had a resounding victory in 2008, Dem control of the House and Senate, even allowing for the obstruction that was planned while the inaugural balls were celebrating his new presidency, when the Tea Party exploded onto the national scene the miserable members of the GOP were reinvigorated and we were off and running. The only reason Romney had any chance in this election was because the Obama administration misread the mandate he was given. Because he ran on health care reform he thought it trumped jobs. Then he filled his administration with asswipes from the Clinton era (Summers, Rubin) who gave him terrible advice about the severity of the recession we were facing. Health care should have been put on a back burner...perhaps a small bill to end "pre-existing" condition exclusions, giving parents the ability to keep children on their own plans until age 26 and ending life-time caps. That would have been very popular with just about everyone and taken some wind out of the obstructionists sails. Instead we spent 2 years fighting for a bill, which as you have said, stinks and which cost us several senators and decimated the Dems in the House....How have you liked the past 2 years? Want more, many more?

Had he focused more on jobs, Boehner wouldn't have had his "Where are the jobs" meme because if the GOP had continued to block jobs bills, they would have caught hell in 2010 not the Dems. Democratic politicians rarely fall in line behind their leaders, both their greatest virtue and their greatest weakness. They chose the wrong time to do it in 2009-2010. The nation right now, and we can only function in the here and now, is center/left. It is not progressive or liberal. In order to get to where we want to go, we must be as strategic as the GOP has been. We have to get our messaging out there and keep it out there. We must take baby steps, remember most people resist change, and we must keep moving forward. The Progressive program will never move forward if we fail to give first Obama and then his Democratic successors room to maneuver and negotiate. If we pack up our teepees and go home, republicans win...it's that simple.

One more thing I feel the need to point out. Obama won just 39% of the white vote....all the talk about the changing demographics of the nation notwithstanding, it is still 65% white. If we do indeed pass immigration reform, and the next Democratic candidates for president is white, they will not carry the overwhelming percentages of the Black and Latino votes that Obama carried. We MUST think long range planning, we can't continue to think that we can get everything we want, just because we want it or believe it is best for the nation. Obama should have put forth immigration reform immediately after taking office, when he had majorities in both houses....had the bill failed, it would have been laid at the door of the GOP and remained there forever...I would not now be worrying that they may steal the Democratic thunder on this issue.

I agree, if we screw up by demanding too much too soon, we will have aided the GOP in creating a hell on earth in what once was the greatest country in the world in which to be born.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #549)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 03:38 PM

569. Long reply on several points and questions;

 

First, I apologize for being short with some of the others that have jumped in here, I don't want any of that to splash onto you. You are one of the few posters here that actually engages in discussion.

We can only speculate as to why the Democrats (politicians, not members) don't want any real solution to our disastrous health care delivery system, but all of those speculations come back to one issue IMO, money.

What is abundantly clear however, is that they do not want one. Just look at the history and actions of Democratic leadership each time this issue has come up over the last 60 years. Truman couldn't get any traction at all, Johnson had to twist arms as only he could do in his own party to get Medicare and there was still significant Democratic opposition to it 60 Reps and 20 Senators IIRC. More contemporarily, the anti-Hillary contingent included several prominent Democrats including Moynihan and Mitchell. Jump forward to 2007 and the Democratically controlled House and Senate. Despite polls (AP, CNN, Yahoo!, NYT, CBS, etc.) showing the American public favoring universal health care by between 54% and 64%, not one proposal was allowed out of committee. Speaker Pelosi repeated this strategy in the following sessions, blocking HR 676 at every turn. The documented evidence that political opposition to universal health care is both bipartisan and abundant. Even the fully implemented ACA never makes access to health care universal.

I don't see how you conclude that the 2010 election was about overreach, from my perspective it was about profound disappointment on the part of a significant portion of the Democratic base, primarily brought on by how President Obama and the Party chose to deal with the economic collapse (trillions for Wall Street, fuck all for Main Street) and the utterly cynical methods and result of passage of the ACA.

The endless con game that has been played on the American public by the republicans and conservadems has been so successful in large part because the Democrats have refused to represent the people that want to vote for them. They keep playing their political games and pushing the same slimey insiders and the same screw-the-people agenda. Compare the records for the so-called Blue-Dogs and the "Left fringe" candidates. The Progressive Caucus keeps growing while the Blue-Dogs keep disappearing, yet we are told over and over that some states won't elect a liberal, except that they will when given the opportunity. It took almost 20 years and some of the most egregious gerrymandering to get rid of Dennis Kucinich and even then they only did so by forcing him to run against another liberal. Dean's 50 state strategy gave us the majorities we squandered and the first thing the third way Dems did was to kill it and cut every liberal lose, pushing conservadems through the primaries so that they could lose to the republicans. Just look at what they did to Kerry in NE and how much he was able to achieve with absolutely no support from the Party. I just don't believe them when they tell us that liberals always lose, and we will never know until we try. I hate to keep coming back to it (but you started it) but how can we know that we couldn't get a better health care bill through when they wouldn't even let any of them be discussed and blocked all of its advocates from the debate?

The republicans are going to remain republicans and the only thing that we can do to counter that is to aggressively present a clear choice and demonstrated conviction to stand up for Democratic principles. If the President and the Democrats continue to appease and try to out-republican the republicans, I will bet you whatever you like that 2014 will look an awful lot like 2010 and barring the nomination of an outright lunatic, a republican President in 2016. A fate that neither of us wants.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #569)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 05:44 PM

575. Thanks!

I was hoping you would answer my question as I wasn't paying attention to the Hillary bill that closely....

ACA was overreach because all of those people who weren't rescued were much more interested in keeping their homes or finding replacement jobs than in health care reform. You'll see from my reply on another thread, just what I think about "disappointed" supporters.

I wasn't thrilled with the first 2 years of this administration, but I have this silly tendency to think long term. I could see no advantage to sitting out an election when it has been known for 50 years at least that low turnout advantages the GOP. The protest non-vote gave me the distinct 'pleasure' of being represented by Allen West...

I think I've said this before, perhaps not to you however, politics is cyclical...which is why we are now seeing liberals elected to seats formerly thought 'unwinnable' by them. Somehow I find it impossible to envision Obama out-republicaning anyone. I think, perhaps, you never fully consider just how destructive republicans have become.

I saw Kerry on an interview prior to the election...frankly he scared the bejeezuz out of me...he sounded almost like a right-winger on the things that must be done to reduce the deficit. Kucinich was a tragedy.... But aren't the Blue Dogs simply losing to republicans?

I totally agree about the need for a clear choice, but I don't believe Obama ran his 2008 campaign as a choice between competing ideologies....Perhaps that's why while disappointed I was not embittered...lower expectations.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #274)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:01 AM

526. Compromise is asinine?

getting nothing done, assuming that any ideas from someone outside of your exact line of thought is worthless?

only a minority of the country would be represented by polar extreme Left positions. If the majority could be successfully forced to live by others' rules, without representation, it would only result in civil war.

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Response to RitchieRich (Reply #526)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 03:39 PM

543. Oh really? Tens of millions of us are forced to live without any representation in what is

 

nominally our government. When is this inevitable civil war going to start? Has it and I just missed it?

And yes, the idea that good compromised by bad makes good better is asinine.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #204)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 04:55 PM

547. You are really negative for no apparent reason, convince us you're not a troll.

 

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #547)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:12 PM

548. You have a mouse in your pocket? Who is this us, and how do you suppose that I

 

have to prove anything to you?

You are the one that has butted into a conversation that Sekhmets Daughter and I are having about the absurd notion put forth in the OP.

How about you prove to me that you have any basis for this series of non-sequiturs and substance free replies beyond the fact that you don't like what I'm writing?

I am a Democrat, I voted for the President, and I'm almost certainly far more liberal than you are. Last I read, lock-step agreement with everything the Democratic Party does is not a requirement for membership on this board.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #548)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 12:23 AM

559. Thug u r

 

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #559)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:24 AM

560. Exactly the response I expected, and yes I am.

 

I am because after 30+ years of seeing what will happen and being right about it, I have become sick and tired of seeing my party and my country destroyed because short-sighted nitwits refuse to acknowledge the reality of what is being done by the very people they are so anxious to submit to.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #74)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:59 PM

147. Neither Social Security or Medicare were incrementally introduced programs

With the exception of coverage extensions that grew from its basic premise, Social Security was proposed, legislated, reviewed and upheld by SCOTUS during the period 1934-1937. Now, while the concept Medicare was debated for almost 20 yrs in Congress (with both sides being intransigent and the right calling it "Socialized medicine"), it did not become law (there were no increments or pieces of Medicare until 1964) when LBJ held damn near a super majority of Congress. Medicare and Medicaid were born in 1964 and became law in 1965. SSI was added in 1972 under a Democratic majority of the house.

Social programs are not introduced under Republican leaderships, nor do Republican majority's vote to add, change for the better, or improve Democratic Social programs.

Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #147)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:20 PM

181. I said Democratic congresses expanded the system....

SSI was not part of the original bill. It was a Republican administration and congress that passed Medicare Part D...saying otherwise does not make it so.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #181)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:34 PM

198. You said "introduced incrementally". They were not.

Both were introduced, passed, and signed into law in single Congressional sessions. Social Security was upheld by SCOTUS during the very next Congressional session. I pointed out that SSI was added almost 30 years later - an expansion under a Democratic Congress. Nothing incongruent in what I wrote.

Medicare Part D. You think it a good program?

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Response to Melinda (Reply #198)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:46 PM

207. Medicare took YEARS to become what it is today

and you know that, Melinda.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #207)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:06 PM

232. This issue is "increments". Take a look at the legislative history:

http://www.ssa.gov/history/law.html

I stand by what I have written, but I am looking forward to refutations re 34-37' and 64-65'. Evolution is not regressive, and what has been done vis a vis Social programs has been mostly accomplished by Democratic majorities. And I do not count Medicare Part D as an accomplishment... YMMV.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #232)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:11 PM

237. You are thikng process....

I am thinking policy....that may be why we are speaking at cross purposes.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #237)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:17 PM

247. OR

It's playing a silly game of semantics to underscore its point.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #247)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:27 PM

267. Sorry...

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #247)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:37 PM

284. I so depise this game of one-upsmanship so many wish to play on DU.

It's about dialogue, exchanging ideas and information AFAIAK. I choose not to interact with those who do not wish the same. Seriously. Why did you feel the need to post what you did, instead of continuing the dialogue you began with me?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #237)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:43 PM

294. Ah, okay, that explains it then. :-)

You're right, I am speaking about the Congressional legislative process and the contribution (or lack thereof) by Republican legislators which is why Democratic Congresses are the ones credited for social programs - hence the legislative history I posted, altho FDR and Johnson are credited for the underlying policy.

I still don't care for Medicare Part D though, and I come down on the side of single payer. But, that's just me.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #294)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:05 PM

315. I agree about single payer, whole heartedly.

If you've never needed bunches of medications, you can't know what a burden it is for people who don't have the excess income needed to pay for them. There is much wrong with it, like the fact that prices aren't negotiated, but it is a major help to millions of elderly Americans who are just getting by.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #198)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:10 PM

236. The people covered by social security was increased incrementally...

Medicare Part D is a good program for those who truly need it. It should be means tested...

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #236)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:45 PM

297. Yes, they were. See? We can agree, lol. ;-)

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Response to Melinda (Reply #297)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:09 PM

431. We probably always did...and didn't know it.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #181)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:04 PM

414. What Social Security was NOT was a mandate that people buy retirement plans from Wall Street n/t

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Response to eridani (Reply #414)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:07 PM

430. Are you talking about 401Ks?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #430)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:41 PM

458. No, just saying that SocSec was proudly a GOVERNMENT program right from the beginning

It did not mandate anything like 401ks. People can invest in the stockmarket and other things if they want to. SocSec never did mandate that they had to.

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Response to eridani (Reply #458)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:58 AM

505. Yes...

and I really hate the idea of privatizing it in any way.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #74)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:03 PM

467. That's a good point about the people caught in the middle

I had (notice past tense) a friend on Facebook before the election that was a foam at the mouth Libertarian who complained constantly about people on food stamps and how they were abusing the system. She had nothing but negative derogatory crap to say about poor people. As you can guess it got on my nerves. After election night she started in with the derogatory stuff about Obama (I'm not going to repeat what she said) and that was the final straw, I defriended her. It just makes me sick.

BTW one thing I never shared with her is that my mom who raised both my brother and I had to use welfare for a short period of time. I think people like that are simply clueless as to the fact that some people's families may have benefited from those programs.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #467)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:00 AM

506. And so ignorant,

they wouldn't care if they knew.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #74)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 02:38 AM

489. And now it's time for step 2, right?

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #489)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:17 AM

507. Depends on what you want. :-)

I would say it is time to turn our full attention to getting more Dems in the House of Representatives and more Dems in our state governments. My long term goal is single-payer, universal health insurance. In order to get there we MUST have a well established Democratic majority in both houses of congress and in the states.

Right now the Republicans are developing the meme about all the companies, big and small, who are planning to reduce workers hours to 29 a week to avoid the Obamacare mandate....If too many companies do indeed do that and the Democrats don't stop it cold, we'll find ourselves sitting on the sidelines in 2014 and 2016.

The biggest failing of the Democratic Party over the past 35 years is that it has never had a long range strategy and it has never bothered to develop its own meme, mantras and mouths. The party has consistently underestimated the power of the continual drip of "gov't is the problem" or "tax cuts for the 'job creators' benefit everyone" Democrats have allowed themselves to be portrayed as the welfare party....You can blame Limbaugh et al for that, but where are the voices that contradict the loudmouth ignoramuses?

Want to know why working class white men vote Republican? The $7.25 minimum wage. All other working class ages are based on that minimum wage....Australia has a minimum wage of $15.51 an hour.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #507)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 02:20 PM

538. IMHO, if, in 4 years, everyone had access to a public medical plan

or single payer, the Dems would hold the majority for the next 50 years.....

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #538)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 02:39 PM

540. Sure...

but just try getting that passed in the next four years. As someone else pointed out, Hillary's plan was killed by Republicans for just that reason. Putting the cart before the horse is never a good strategy.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #74)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:35 AM

502. Well said

I think that's why we lost in 2010. Too many of us were tired of waiting for the pony O promised and sat out 2010. Look where that got us!

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Response to BobbyBoring (Reply #502)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:20 AM

508. Which has caused us long term grief....

All those governorships and state houses that turned Red, right after a census meant there would be redistricting and dozens of "safe" republican districts created. That's the main reason we didn't win more seat in the House this time...

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #74)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:58 PM

583. I live in section 8 housing and

it is the best place I have ever lived. Landlords have a checklist of things that they have to follow in order to stay approved--so they keep things repaired and up-to-date. They are super responsive more so than anyplace else I have ever lived. The neighborhood is a bit sketchy--but I fit right in

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Response to brokechris (Reply #583)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 08:17 AM

585. What state? Because I think that lies at the heart of the matter...

I am truly happy to hear that your landlord is responsive....It's good to know not only that it can be done, but is being done somewhere.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:30 PM

192. +2000

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:51 PM

213. +1000s (n/t)

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:59 AM

63. Only for people that can afford it. Those of us in poverty will get Medicaid...

 

My heart does not bleed for the "middle class" or upper class.

My heart lies with my class: The impoverished class.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #63)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:40 PM

123. Your heart should bleed for the middle class....

many have been pushed into poverty after years of paying taxes to assist the impoverished class.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #123)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:14 PM

241. yes, pushed into poverty or shitty jobs

so that WS and the "big boys" can make even more profit off the backs of labor. i don't mind paying taxes if it helps americans in need, helps education, keeps my library open and goes for safe roads, bridges and other infrastructure.

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Response to newspeak (Reply #241)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:21 PM

254. I'm with you.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #123)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:16 PM

243. The middle-class benefits as much or more from tax payments

Very little of any of "our tax dollars" go to the impoverished - as any pie chart I've ever seen of tax $ distribution shows. Nor has the middle-class been exactly been bereft of tax policy beneficence - think of home mortgage deductions, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid for the elderly to name a few - I'm sure I'm forgetting some. So, I'm not sure where you come off with such a statement. Now, were you to say that neither the impoverished nor the Middle-class benefit probably 1/100th from wealth transfer from tax policy as do the rich, that would be true. But to lay some sort of guilt on the impoverished for the taxes paid by the middle-class is - well, let's just say unfair.

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Response to bread_and_roses (Reply #243)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:26 PM

265. It is just as unfair

to say you have no sympathy for those of the middle class who are paying federal income taxes while struggling to keep their heads above water. I think too few people understand just who is the middle class...it is not Mitt Romney's $250,000.

It was not my intent to lay guilt on anyone, but to point out that both the middle class and the impoverished are suffering these days. I am old enough to remember when the vast middle class paid the bulk of federal income tax.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #123)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:18 PM

322. Good grief

I can not believe I just read that coming from the fingertips of a Democrat. Amazing.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #322)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:24 PM

325. Do you know what defines the middle class?

Hint: It is not Mitt Romney's $250,000 a year.....It hangs out around the median wage... and if you don't think they are struggling, well shame on you.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #123)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:58 PM

397. You should post some of their stories,

or some proof of that assertion. I'd love to see that happen without linking to a right wing website.

If all that money had gone to the impoverished class, they wouldn't be impoverished anymore. It all - every last penny - went to rich people. It might have taken a few hops to get there in some cases, but it still got there.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #397)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:11 PM

403. Really, have you been poor all of your life?

I never said all of the money went to the impoverished class...what I did say is that people who had been middle class and paid federal income taxes all of their working lives have been impoverished themselves. Where the hell do you think the money for SNAP. Section 8 Housing, and other programs that attempt to relieve the suffering of the impoverished comes from? Santa Clause?

I never visit right wing sites, never. I am amazed at how poor is the reading comprehension of many people....I never claimed that the wealth of the middle class had been drained by the poor. That is indeed a right wing meme. I know full well that the middle class was crushed by the greed of the rich. Do your own research...go back 40 years and find out who put the bulk of the revenue into the federal coffers. Research the median wage and what has happened to it. Learn the definition of middle class.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #403)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:52 PM

412. My reading comprehension is fine:

"Your heart should bleed for the middle class....many have been pushed into poverty after years of paying taxes to assist the impoverished class."

That implies that it's the taxes to assist the impoverished class that pushed many of the middle class into poverty. I can see how you meant it as "Many in the middle class that paid taxes to assist the impoverished have been pushed into poverty."

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #412)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:06 PM

429. I see your point, and perhaps I could have made mine more clearly....

However, it seems that many here are still in some sort of weird attack mode while other less aggressive people understood exactly what I was saying. To assume that anyone who speaks out for the middle class is some right wing nut who blames the social safety net programs for impoverishing the middle class is as silly as O'Reilly claiming white America is now dead or whatever nonsense he has been spewing since President Obama was elected to a second term.

All this started because someone said they had no sympathy for the middle class, in my opinion that is an indefensible attitude.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:54 PM

142. Thats not a good idea. Its simply what we got stuck with after caving in to Repukes.

But at least it's a first step on the way to a better program. And it did get more more people covered.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:31 AM

22. I think the point is that it isn't any one ideology or mix of ideologies that is good, but...

... having a debate about it, being forced to make acceptable arguments, being called out on anything you state publicly. If you are never challenged, your effort will reflect that, and a chunk of the voting public will lose out.

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Response to LancetChick (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:47 AM

42. Presumably, that argument only works if you

are espousing conservative ideas. If you are espousing progressive liberal ideas then you're a 'purist' who is holding back 'progress'.

Challenge works both inside and outside any group - and there are several ways to read the message in what the OP wrote.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #42)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:53 AM

53. That, sir, is reflexive crap.

Are you a purist? Or are you willing to listen to other ideas? If you are, then you are not a purist. Simple as that.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #53)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:04 PM

67. What utter hogwash.

Who the fuck are you to presume to know what others have or haven't done? You think we "purists" haven't heard the claptrap from "the other side" a million times over?

I mean REALLY?

"Physician, heal thyself."

They had their say and their way, for at least 3decades and it's proved to be an abject failure. so NO, we won't just STFU and go away. Your attitude needs to go away.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #67)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:14 PM

78. I agree

The OP seems somewhat idealistic. The post would be fine if we didn't know how intransigent the repugs were in the President's first term. The day he was inaugurated in 2009 (documented in Robert Draper's book, "Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives.") several big wig repugs, Republican Reps. Eric Cantor (Va.), Kevin McCarthy (Calif.), Paul Ryan (Wis.), Pete Sessions (Texas), Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.), Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith, met and declared to oppose the President at every turn. And they did and the economy suffered as job biil after job bill was rejected by the repugs. We all have to remember them being invited several times to the White House with no resulting compromises. They even began saying they were too busy to come (Boenhner). And they've already signaled in this new term that they will remain obstructionists with both Boenhner and McConnell claiming to be asleep when the President reached out to them on election night. This is about Realpolitiks — practical, real, conditions that actual exist — not idealism and theory. The dems should used reconciliation to get their measures through because the repugs have already signaled they are more likely to double down on their right wing policies.

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Response to brush (Reply #78)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:16 PM

83. Adopting the enemies failed tactics

is not a long term strategy.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #83)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:22 PM

95. Do you want to get progressive measures through . . .

Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

. . . by using tactics available to us, reconciliation, to help move the country forward and away from right wing policies or worry about the repugs feelings? The country spoke on election night. People are sick of repug obstructionism and want to get things done. If playing "hard ball" gets it done, let's get it done.

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Response to brush (Reply #95)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:35 PM

118. Again,

I am NOT defending the current GOP.

That said, I am a believer in Kant's moral imperative. If you adopt a moral stance or moral action, then you are adopting that moral stance for everyone. Reconciliation is fine on occasion, to make it common practice is just as repugnant to me as making the Filibuster common practice. If you wish to do so, fine. But you are not allowed to complain about it when others use it against you.

In the current situation, the GOP has already gone tactical Nuke on the Senate. I commensurate response may be required. However, I don't see as it will be needed after this election.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #83)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:08 PM

159. Republicans use all the tools at their disposal

Then they pull up the ladder and slam the door shut behind them. Look at what Husted is proposing electorally in Ohio, what they tried to do in Pennsylvania. The Dems' are in a good position to play hardball. Kristol sees the writing on the wall. The best option for the Reps is to take the deal The President is offering during the lame duck. Because then they will have to hold middle class tax cuts hostage again after the Bush cuts expire. The Dems' best tool right now is the bully pulpit combined with a willingness to ram the rules down McConnell's, Demint's & Cantor's throats.

Until the GOP shows an effort to work with the President, all options should be left on the table. In one aspect, I can agree with the OP. We don't have to get vulgar to express our position. We can certainly use conventional English and poetic license to call out the GOP guard. But we have to win, and we have to pass legislation, and we have to get government functioning. We have to be willing to leave the GOP at the station. Though they act like it, they are not 4-year-olds throwing tantrums; they are adults. We have to be willing to coldly, dispassionately leave them in the dust--especially the sociopaths like Rick Scott and the demagogues like Demint.

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #159)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:24 PM

186. Agreed

Good post. Let's get our policies through and let the public see them working, then let the repugs try to change them and see what happens when the voters reject their "back to the past" foolishness.

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #159)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:50 PM

211. You're better at this than I

Thanks.

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #159)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:31 PM

550. What deal is the President offering? Any deal including even a mention of SS in the same sentence

as the Deficit, is a Republican deal. I agree we are now in a position to take control and to totally reject their attacks on SS and Medicare and to force them into facing the reality of what actually caused the deficit in the first place. Which included, Bush's criminal wars and the Bush tax cuts which alone cost this country over 2 trillion dollars.

So I am assuming you are not supporting any Republican plan to tie SS to the Deficit. That would be a lie, which by now most Americans are fully aware of and would lose Dems support in the next election.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #550)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 06:48 PM

552. That is something that should be reiterated to our elected representatives.

We need to apply sustained energy to our positions. And present the math dispassionately. Bush's criminal wars had Democratic votes. We need to show people that SS doesn't add to the deficit, not just state it. Democrats need to drive that fact until folks like David Gregory ask a John Boehner, "SS doesn't add to the deficit. Why cut it?"

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #552)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 06:52 PM

554. Yes, exactly. This cannot be said enough. Eg, in the debates, Romney told the biggest lie

of all about SS, 'it's going broke' and it was not refuted and demolished, sadly. I am not blaming the president as he did begin to respond, but Candy Crowley asked him to wait as she went to the question from the audience about Immigration. But they never got back to it.

Not only should SS NOT be cut, benefits should be increased. That money belongs to the people, not the Federal Govt. And it has a surplus of over two trillion dollars. Raising benefits would be fair, and the equivalent of a stimulous package only not taking it out of the Fed Budget, which is even better. SS beneficiaries are the most likely to spend what they have.

I really do not understand why the only person I hear clearly explaining this issue, is Bernie Sanders who does it so easily. Why more Democrats are not doing the same thing.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #83)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:53 PM

365. who adopted them? Obama ran a clean campaign and did not LIE about his record

R$ did

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Response to wordpix (Reply #365)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:57 PM

446. Agreed.

So why stop now?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #67)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:15 PM

79. I don't presume shit.

Seems to me you are the one loosing it.

I am responding to the words posted on boards. It is that mentality that i am reacting to.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #79)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:20 PM

90. Clue #1

You not knowing the difference between "loosing it" and "losing it" speaks volumes.


Where is that ever so basic fuck up common place?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #90)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:29 PM

106. Are you going to mention Nazis next?

The grammar point speaks volumes about your immaturity.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #106)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:00 PM

149. we

need a lot of debate and compromise amongst ourselves and our party. We have too many bluedogs that will work against our POTUS and will help the rethugs obstruct just as they did in his first term. So we need to get our program together. All this sniping will only be helpful if in 2014 we continue the total demise of teaparty thugs and their rethug cohorts. We need to grow up. Capt hook people like you are responsible for healthy debate, keep up the good work. All that cursing at you and such is to me an undesirable trait on this site sometimes.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #106)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:18 AM

530. You'd do better to defend your mistake by expecting people to support th spirit of your message, not

niggle about the misspelling. I clearly got what you meant in the OP and support your position. I clearly understand your homonym typo here. But you yourself have to listen to your fellow DU'ers, support the breadth of their positions, or at least give them some information to diabuse what you see as problematic in their concerns as well, and not be thin-skinned such that you just have to shut down even a trifling correction, as you try to do here.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #90)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:13 AM

528. hilarious

I love how people on this site eviscerate each other over minor grammar mistakes.
That particular method of logical fallacy is known as the "straw man." It is defined by attacking a (perceived) personal flaw of the speaker instead of addressing their point.

Actually, I found the structure of your second sentence to be slightly choppy. Therefore, obviously, you kill babies.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #67)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:51 PM

136. you

are rude

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #136)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:34 PM

195. And you...

... are irrelevant.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #195)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:51 PM

212. Nice

I am sure you are a ton of fun at parties.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #212)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:59 PM

224. You actually think I'm..

.. concerned with your opinion of me?

Really?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #224)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:08 PM

235. It is obvious

that you aren't concerned with the opinions of any one who may disagree with you. Welcome to the Tea Party.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #235)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:16 PM

244. OOOHHHHH!

slap! well done.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #235)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:19 PM

251. If you are from the Tea Party...

... why are you posting here?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #251)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:26 PM

264. hey

give it up. why are you posting here is the question to be answered. Have a good day.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #251)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:36 PM

282. Now who is being obtuse?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #282)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:46 PM

364. You are.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #251)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:25 PM

355. x2

 

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #195)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:22 PM

258. Nice thing to say to a vet on Veteran's Day. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #258)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:20 PM

353. That's ok...

... I forgive him.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #353)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:40 PM

409. For what? nt

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #353)

Wed Nov 14, 2012, 10:06 AM

561. Oh

and for the record I don't need forgiveness from someone like you. Nor will I accept apologies from your ilk.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #53)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:02 PM

369. I'm not a sir, for one.

And for another, I'd say that the only person in this conversation who is unwilling to entertain an alternative position is you.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #53)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 03:10 AM

492. Your OP was about listening to others and things not being black and white

and yet now you are being closed minded and trying to label people.

I am pretty much a purist in my ideals but I will listen to other ideas, I just doubt they will persuade me as mine are formed by ideals and values that are about helping everyone out and doing what is right. There are a lot of ideas that people espouse that history has shown do not work and yet they are still trying to implement them, am I supposed to compromise and give in to something that has ruined our economy? I think not. That would just be stupid. I'd rather be a purist than stupid.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #53)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:42 AM

516. Talk about reflexive crap!! Er, reflective. Looks bad from here Captain.

There's that Zen thing again.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:48 AM

48. Government can sometimes waste money

The Republican party has taken this idea to the extreme, but it has some sound basis that can actually help Democratic priorities.

When pushing for programs that help the poor and middle class, you want to make sure that spending is effective and actually getting the job done. You don't want to spend money on stuff that doesn't work.

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Response to gravity (Reply #48)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:28 PM

102. Yep

I would say the same for national defense. Our military is bloated beyond measure and imperialism is unacceptable from a country that touts its Freedom, but a sound defensive posture is needed.

I would also include Social Security. It was originally passed as a Conservative idea, finding economic stability for a growing body of senior citizens. That is why it had strong bi-partisan support.

Environmental conservatism is conservatism. But it is a conservatism rejected from the Republican party because it conflicts with business. Environmentalists will win in the end because conservative farmers, hunters, fishers and lumbermen recognize the value in keeping the planet green.

Welfare reform was needed in 1996. A compromise was reached between competing political factions. There are numerous examples that I have seen over the last 25 years.

I am blown away by the modern GOP, angry, disgusted. But I'm not afraid of conservatives.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #102)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 12:23 AM

483. Welfare reform in 1996 made "Working Class Poor" a large demographic.

I'm all for respecting the conservatives who come to the table with honest to goodness ideas, but at this time in history we need to stand our ground in regards to Congress.

We have 2 years to ride out the Obstructionists in the House and with THEM no compromise or they take it as a sign of weakness.

I agree that our nasty attitude here is over the top and isn't what we need long term because America is still on the verge of tearing itself apart, but we don't have to be nasty and we don't need to compromise either.

It is ENTIRELY CIVIL to make it clear that WE ARE:

A) The GROWNUPS in the room.
B) The PARTY IN CHARGE.
C) The PEOPLE who have been TELLING THE TRUTH all along
and
D) The PEOPLE who WILL NOT be BACKING DOWN FROM the TRUTH.

PERIOD


AS LONG AS we don't have to compromise on what is NEEDED to move America FORWARD, THE PEOPLE of AMERICA still need to learn HOW to have the conversations needed to GET THE JOB DONE.


They (the remaining Republicans) have 2 choices now...



1) Come to the table willingly with ideas and reasonable proposals and get some credit for doing something for the American people

or

2) Continue the whinny brat behavior and stand in the corner until you're willing to get to work or until your constituents REPLACE you with someone who WILL work to get America back on track.




WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE ANGRY, HOSTILE and treat them the way they treated US. BUT that won't get the policies put in place or the JOB DONE.


AND at the END OF THE DAY


GETTING THE JOB DONE is what DEMs DO.


SO STAY STRONG, but don't BEAT THEM DOWN, win them over.


It's the more challenging path, BUT WHAT ELSE IS NEW?



I advocate PEACEFUL UNWILLINGNESS ...... we don't give in, but we don't act like them either. It makes America a better place FOR EVERYONE.

DEMs CARE
DEMs SHARE
DEMs ARE the ones who tolerate Differences of Opinion

DEMs HAVE BEEN THE ONES BRINGING SOLUTIONS TO THE TABLE


If the Obstructionists won't work with us, then we still have work to do and we will work around them, walk through them or even over them if need be. It doesn't have to be brutal, just determined.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #102)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:26 AM

514. I don't see any specifics in your posts, just vague ideology.

And that bothers me immensely. What I dislike about conservatives is that they tend to be emotionally biased, vs fact. And what experience do you have with SS? It is solvent. What we libs are tired of is explaining the obvious facts as supported by science, etc...ad nauseum. What fantasy of yours says the environment will be ok because conservatives will recognize their value???!!! What bullshit is that? Is that before or after irrevocable damage? If you want to start arguing for policies that protect our environment, (our health, our food supply, etc...), start attaching a price tag to the rising rates of asthma, cancer, etc., ad nauseum, and to our medical costs, cause most of the people affected live in poorer areas. Start attaching a price tag.
Welfare reform was a joke. They had a chance to enact policies that actually helped people and chose not to, for the most part. Have you been part of welfare to work???
I'm glad you are "not afraid". Aside from the whole Zen thing. I don't think libs are afraid, we're angry. Tired of battling big business through it's mouthpieces that work the crowds to foment fear and pass policy that is bent on de-constructing America.

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Response to gravity (Reply #48)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:25 PM

263. Have you ever worked in the federal government or a large corporation?

 

I spent decades in both and the waste within any of the Fortune 50 would land government bureaucrats in jail. Not to mention the crime and corruption that is de rigueur at the executive level.

Quit buying the RW bullshit. The federal government is vastly more efficient and effective than private enterprise. reagan was an idiot that didn't know what the hell he was talking about and consequently got everything wrong.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:58 AM

60. True Smith capitalism

A free market place guided by the invisible hand, combined with big government to keep the market in check, enforce regulation strictly, and if need be throw the crooks in jail.

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Response to Dash87 (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:05 PM

158. Amen

But it would also be a good idea to reinstitute mandatory Ethics classes in Business schools.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #158)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:40 PM

289. yeah, as long as someone

like michael milkin are not instructing them.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #158)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:45 PM

296. Read the book. And enforcing actual ethical standards in the real world would be far more effective

 

than requiring pointless classes that have never been practiced.

Nothing is more annoying that free-marketeers that go on about Adam Smith's theory while they obviously have never studied or read his writings. Like all of his like-minded contemporaries, he would be absolutely appalled at the crimes that have been committed using his ideas as justification.

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Response to Dash87 (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:37 PM

283. A.) Not a conservative idea at all, rather a means to reach an egalitarian society.

 

B.) It relies entirely on a stable society with no deprivation of the lower class.

RTFB

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)


Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:09 PM

161. We can remind them of fiscally responsible Republicans like Eisenhower

 

but that's all I've got.

They go on and on about the Constitution- we could call them out on that BS and agitate to end Homeland Security and the TSA and illegal spying, drones etc.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:12 PM

169. Conservation is a conservative idea. Don't confuse Ts for conservatives. Ts are cons.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:38 PM

285. Verification of progress is a conservative idea.

When a social of economic change is made, we must stop and check to insure that change is meeting it's intended objectives, if it isn't, we either should modify it or in extreme cases, end it and start with a new model.

People that are loudly calling themselves conservatives today aren't. They call for small government on the things that they don't like, but want big, invasive government for the things that they want to expand or suppress. People like that are extremists.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:56 PM

395. Great idea, CaptJasHook! Let's compromise!!!

 

Because we need to be in the middle of the road no matter how far over on the right side of the universe that entire road is! That'll fix everything! No matter how far the GOP moves the goal posts, we need to "get out in front of it" and move right! In the "compromise" John Boehner will get what he wants, but we will win the accolades! Paul Krugman is saying not to compromise now. But what does he know? Just because he won the Nobel Prize in economics is no reason to listen to him!

Here's what. Republicans want to get rid of Social Security entirely. So let's throw half the elderly into the street! As a compromise! Boy will that make the Republicans look like fools! Boy are we smart!!!!

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Response to wellspring (Reply #395)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:26 PM

422. Thanks, now I don't have to type all that!

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:00 PM

399. I think the conservative emphasis on smaller government has value except that it is warped by

small minds. But I've worked in the government, I know there is a TON of wasted money.

They ought to be able to find and identify it all, and eliminate it, without firing people or robbing them of what they need, I think it's doable.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #399)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:28 PM

423. Yes, but that's not what today's cons want. They're fine with billions wasted on unnecessary defense

contracts, but they cannot stand that PBS gets a pittance.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 03:03 AM

491. *** HI THERE... I address the OP....

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:59 AM

525. I can't think of any modern conservative ideas myself.

So I don't know what the OP was talking about.
They would shove it down our throats, had they won with the margin that we won, so I guess it's just a simple case of IOKIYAR, AGAIN!

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:23 AM

2. thank you nt

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:23 AM

3. gee

 

that's swell

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:24 AM

4. Compromise is a two-way street.

We can't compromise with ourselves.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:36 AM

30. Agreed

That is why I despise Grover Norquist and his TeaPublicans.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #30)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:39 PM

408. And John Boehner

Boehner: No "compromise"

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:40 AM

38. Which is exactly what the Obama administration

and the Third Wayers have been doing. Here's hoping at least one of them (Obama) has learned that it is pointless and destructive.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:51 AM

51. Isn't it wonderful

how easily we label each other. So much easier than discussing ideas.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:06 PM

69. Label eachother?

lol. this is Democratic UnderGround, hows that label for ya'?

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Response to Raffi Ella (Reply #69)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:36 PM

120. Your point?

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Response to Raffi Ella (Reply #69)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:48 PM

299. The democratic party is massively broad in viewpoint.

I am a moderate in Massachusetts who help fund and voted for Elizabeth Warren, even though I initially supported a moderate Democratic State Senator. Why in the end did I support Warren? The moderate democratic State Senator MAY have been able to beat Brown, but I knew Warren surely had a 50-50 chance and that she was a fighter. I gave up on everything that I wanted to get a lot of what I wanted.

There are bluedog democrats who in their hearts and souls are pure democrats, if they weren't, they would have gone republican long ago. A bluedog democrat that wins in a conservative republican leaning district is as much a democrat as a democrat that wins in an abundantly liberal district, we need to respect and listen to that man or woman from that conservative district, they have policy needs for THEIR district, which after all is why they are in Congress.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #299)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:50 PM

463. Ah, no. If they vote with Republicans, ...

...or refuse to support the Democrat legislative program, then they aren't Democrats. Except in name only.....hence, DINO.

D

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:19 PM

386. The Republicans don't have any (good) ideas

and haven't for 30 years. And the Third Way is just (corporate) Republican lite. You can call that a label, or whatever you want; it doesn't change the reality.

And our President is a self-described Blue Dog. That's a label too, and I'm not the one who used it. Maybe he has learned better. He's smart, so there's a good chance that he has. Here's hoping.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:11 PM

468. If you don't like labels I would suggest you edit the word "purists" out of your OP

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #468)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 06:16 PM

579. OUCH!

THAT will leave a mark.

He should also edit out that part about Black vs White thinking
and the need to "listen".
After reading this thread, it is clear he lives in a self-absorbed, Black vs White world,
and doesn't know the meaning of the word "listen".

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:52 PM

214. Ha ha, Obama is many things to many people

To me, as a mechanic, repair person and a fixer much, he is "A#1" in my book. The dude makes stuff work and that is much more than i could say for a lot people and things as of late. I believe the rest of world thinks of him as brave, concise, patient, thoughtful, intelligent and a hard-worker. To me, it doesn't look like any kind of an ideology other than one of "just getting it done"

Obama put the olive branch out many time and continues, if people cannot understand how that works, just please keep watching.

On edit: now the spell checker didn't work correctly

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Response to nolabels (Reply #214)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:52 PM

304. "On edit: now the spell checker didn't work correctly". You got your point across. nt

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:51 PM

302. Yes, and deciding whether to take too much or take it all is not compromise, it is capitulation. n/t

 

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:26 AM

7. Conservatives have ideas, but they're all terrible & oppressive.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:16 PM

84. What, like the EPA? Methinks a Republican President signed off on that. nt

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Response to mwooldri (Reply #84)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:18 PM

86. That was a LONG time ago.

Present day conservatives hate the EPA and want to get rid of it. I'd like to see some present day repuke ideas that are worth more than a plugged nickel.

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Response to mwooldri (Reply #84)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #110)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:48 PM

208. It doesn't matter what the devolved Republican did. Fact remains, the EPA was a Republican

idea, as was the intrastate highways.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #208)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #288)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:04 PM

311. Well, the question was what good Republican ideas were there

and that's why it was listed.

However, you're correct . . . since St. Ronnie there hasn't been a single good Republican idea that wasn't co-written with a Democrat. True.

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Response to mwooldri (Reply #84)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:58 PM

308. But didn't originate it. It was his reaction to one aspect of a movement that threatened

 

his ability to yield power. This revisionist history has got to stop. Nixon was an evil SOB, backed by Texas oil men and enabled by conservative Democrats that chose to let the nation fall into chaos rather than share power.

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Response to mwooldri (Reply #84)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:05 PM

344. NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:26 AM

8. And I think there are some things no real Democrat would ever "compromise" on -

 

if that makes me a "progressive purist" I"ll gladly wear the title. I consider it a compliment even though you mean it as an insult.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:49 AM

50. If you feel insulted, that is your choice.

I'd be interested to know what those uncompromiseables are and how much you would sacrifice for them.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #50)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:58 AM

62. The whole point of your post was to be insulting.

 

And I shouldn't have to tell you what those are uncompromiseables are. I would think that they would be plenty obvious on a board for members of the Democratic Party. But since you don't seem to think the Democratic Party should really stand for anything, I'll be happy to fill you in:

NO cuts to the following:

Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid

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Response to forestpath (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:19 PM

87. No kidding. This post was deliberately insulting.

I also notice the OP did not offer any of the so-called "good" repuke ideas we should be considering.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #87)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:46 PM

131. What?

So sorry you think that is the point. If I insulted you then perhaps you should take a look at why you reacted to it so.

And listing "good" repuke ideas isn't the point of the post. I have done so further down the thread. The fact that you can't think of any on your own is disturbing to me. I thought we were the educated party.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #131)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:10 PM

164. Ah, then you do idolize the republican party.

Of course your shouldn't think my post is insulting to you. I just said that you gum up the works here at DU by pushing republican ideas. That is no more insulting than your little rant.

Sorry if progressives here won't stfu and get out of the third way's way. Move a little to the right at a time or move a lot to the right - your still moving right. The goal should be to move ever leftward. Compromises that don't do that are not compromise but capitulation.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #164)


Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #164)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:54 PM

217. I am a progressive.

You are assuming.

And you can't move to the left by using the tactics from the right. That merely makes them stronger.

I understand the difference between capitulation and compromise, thank you very much.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #217)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:58 PM

479. Your presumed understanding

is not reflected in the language of your posts on this thread.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #217)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:36 AM

533. Actually, the left can.That's also an attempt to avoid using all tools in the Left's bigger tool box

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Response to forestpath (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:43 PM

128. I call BS

I should know the point of my post. Don't put words in my mouth.

If you feel insulted by someone who disagrees with you, then perhaps you need to check yourself. I don't need to prove to you my loyalty to the Democratic Party or the Progressive movement. Nor do I desire to prove yours.

And nooooo, I don't think the Democratic Party should stand for anything. How strange that you think anyone would think that. I guess it is your way of trying to diminish me so that you don't have to listen to any critique.

Are you going to say NO cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid if it bankrupts 20 -30 year olds? Or are you willing to make adjustments to insure its perpetuity?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #128)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:22 PM

183. Aw, you call BS. There you go again with the insults.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #183)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:55 PM

219. Nice logic trap

Guess that means all of my ideas and thoughts are worthless.

Thank you for addressing the issues and not attacking the messenger. You are a peach.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #219)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:35 PM

279. Don't put words in my mouth. And don't call me a peach. Your tactics remind me of somebody.

 

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #128)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:12 PM

432. THERE IT IS: 20-30 YOs are going to be bankrupted? LOL

Not all of us have fallen for Third Way bullshit, and you're not to be taken seriously since you have.

NO cuts to SS, Medicare and Medicaid; rather, end the fucking wars, tax the rich, and raise the cap... for starters.

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Response to WorseBeforeBetter (Reply #432)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:04 PM

448. Suddenly

You have a degree in economics and are therefore able to make demands.

Take a second and pretend you don't know everything. If the only way to maintain Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid in the face of the Baby Boom Elderly Bubble is to increase taxes on the working class and/or raise the age of entitlement, would you do it?

Most economists are fairly certain it is solvent until 2030, but they always attach caveats to their assessment, and now of them will look past 2030. So, how certain are you? And if not, what are you going to do about it so your kids aren't screwed?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #448)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:32 PM

456. Social Security has a 75 year planning horizon

Keeping it fully funded for that time period would require tax increases amounting somewhere between 4% and 5% of projected wage growth - no big deal, no problem The program is reliable and efficient. Cutting it is what would screw the kids.

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Response to PETRUS (Reply #456)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:01 AM

527. 2086. The sky is not falling...

if our fearless leaders do the right thing.

A SUMMARY OF THE 2012 ANNUAL REPORTS
Social Security and Medicare Boards of Trustees


http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #448)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 10:49 AM

523. And you are... Baker, Stiglitz or Krugman?

I'm not an intelligence analyst, but knew that Saddam did not have WMDs. And so did every Purist on this board.

I'm not military, but knew that Afghanistan would be a huge clusterfuck. And so did every Purist on this board.

And, no, I'm not an economist, but knew that the Bush tax cuts would not be "job-creating," and that our economy was a house of cards just waiting to fall. And so did every Purist on this board.

SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO US -- we know when we're being manipulated and lied to.

I'm not falling for the Corporate Dem bullshit that benefit reductions and raising the age of entitlement are the only ways to maintain SS, Medicare and Medicaid. I do support raising taxes -- on everyone -- to Clinton Administration levels. Raising the cap. Gradually reducing the defense budget. Jobs. Not fucking around with the payroll tax. There's nothing radical about those ideas.

Say I'm wrong and you're right, what am I going to do? Bail out the Social Safety Net as quickly as Congress bailed out Wall Street.

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Response to WorseBeforeBetter (Reply #523)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:23 AM

531. AMEN. ALL THE WAY.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #448)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:55 AM

562. For starters, we could

keep Third-Way neocons, Libertarians, and Republicans from screwing up our economy any further by not electing any of them. Then we could restore the Middle Class by making the 1% pay their fair share of taxes.

After that, we could form a comedy group by recruiting faux-intellectual clowns like you.

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Response to WorseBeforeBetter (Reply #432)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:31 AM

532. nevermind.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #128)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:39 PM

551. Medicare needs some major adjustments, I'll concede.

Social Security is fine if we'd just stop spending monies collected for it on bombs and tanks. Medicare contributions need to go up. Health care in old age is not cheap. Insulin and dialysis can be mighty pricey. We need to raise the rate of contribution in some way (getting rid of caps would be the best start.) When 20-30-year-olds blink, they too will be at the age of retirement. If we do the job right now, they will have programs that they can depend on. If we don't, the programs will be gone by the time today's young folk need them. If the GOP manages to convince us that we must gut the programs to save them and pit generation against generation, we might as well concede everything, because we stand for nothing.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:03 PM

154. that's

the starting point. Now talk to the 'third way' or bluedogs as I call them.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #50)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:39 PM

122. Personally, I won't ever compromise on the environment, PERIOD

There's no "middle" ground to deal on with conservatives...The environment is either protected or exploited/destroyed in the name of corporate profit

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #122)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:05 PM

450. I agree.

We have nooooo time left on that one.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:03 PM

310. I can state some things that a democrat should never compromise on.

Other than just make the statement, can you?

My list and the reasons:

Social Security -the reason is because the government is repaying an investment, not making entitlement payments.
Medicare -the reason is seeing an old person not getting medical care that person deserves reduces me as a human being.
Welfare -reason is that we should help people get back on their feet, enough said.
EPA Funding -if we choke to death wealthy, then what was the fucking purpose of becoming wealthy?
Education Funding -Thinking about that for one minute is enough to know there is no other alternative to remaining strong as a nation other than educating the young and striving.
Disaster Aid -reason, the mere thought that we would leave someone on their own to deal with the forces of nature is fucking insane.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #310)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:59 PM

382. Tell it to the OP, not me.

 

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:27 AM

9. Conservative "ideas" are known to be utterly wrong.

Lowering taxes on the rich does not increase employment, for one.
They simply do not work.

This election, we took a sharp turn LEFT and it's high time Obama and others recognize that this is not a "center-right" country but a progressive one and we need to honor those progressive values that have done so much good. The social safety net actually WORKS. It lifts people out of poverty and keeps the elderly from falling into it. Universal health care, for every nation that has it, simply works. It saves money, for one thing.

Progressive (or liberal) ideas work, when implemented. Conservative ideas do not.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:39 AM

34. Are you seriously suggesting that all liberal ideas work?

I have a strong preference for Liberal and Progressive ideas. I am just appreciative of the fact that my wife often asks the question, how are we going to pay for that? That, is a conservative stance.

We have integrated so many conservative ideas into our own movement that we often fail to acknowledge them.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #34)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:16 PM

81. Are you seriously suggesting that conservative ideas work?

I have yet to see you point out the wonderful ideas that conservatives have. Here's my list:

Voting Rights Act: liberal
Roe v. Wade: liberal
Women Voting: liberal
Anti-slavery: liberal
Progressive taxation: liberal
Consumer protection: liberal
Industry regulation: liberal
Renewable energy: liberal

Here are conservative "ideas":

Slavery
Segregation
Anti-Choice
Against voting rights
Huge tax cuts for the wealthy
Endless war
Deliberate obstruction of bills to help the country with the sole purpose of regaining power
Supporting companies that pollute
Discrimination

So, buddy, which conservative "ideas" should we support? I'm waiting ...

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #81)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:03 PM

153. I notice you cherry-pick

And, frankly, it isn't fair because I think Liberal/Progressive ideas are far superior to Conservative ideas. But I will put on the Devil's advocate hat for you.

"Good" Conservative ideas.

A strong family unit. (So good the gay community wants to get involved)
A strong defense. (NO, not offense)
Isolationism, ie. staying out of the business of other nations.
Environmental stewardship.
Balancing a checkbook.
Wearing a condom.
Politeness. (Well, it used to be a Conservative idea)
Small government whenever possible.
Keeping it local, ie. State's rights first.

All in all, I think the Progressive movement has adopted a LOT of conservative ideas in its time. We are generally more suited to evolution. But there have been crazy ideas in our time as well:

Free Love
Feeling Good
Drone Strikes
The Deconstructionism of Deconstructionism
4/20
Lycra
Environmental Terrorism
Communism (great for groups of 200 people or so, sucks as a national policy)

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:41 PM

202. You're A Fan Of State's Rights?


Imagine my total lack of surprise......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #202)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:58 PM

222. I am a fan

of prohibiting government intrusion in my life.

When something can be done efficiently on a local level, that is where it should stay. If something can be done better collectively by pooling resources, then by all means go to a bigger system, but be ever vigilante.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #222)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 06:50 PM

553. The local level is still government.

 

Bu there are things the local level can not do without help from the state level. And there are things the State government cannot do without help from the federal Government. That is why the money needs flow down, not just trickle down to the local level.
The Federal government must be big enough to supply emergency help whenever and wherever it is needed. A small government simply cannot not do that. Especially when it is hamstrung with a gridlocked Congress and wars for private profit half way around the world.
Katrina was an example of a small government at work. The bu$h administration even took Congressional obligated money from the funds set aside to repair the levies, for their war effort. Look what happened. Sandy was a government big enough to gear up to start supplying help before the storm even hit. Which is better for the people involved?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:17 PM

248. Wow, so we should feel bad?

and what the hell is wrong with 4/20.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #248)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:37 PM

475. 4/20 +1

“The illegality of cannabis is outrageous, an impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world.”

― Carl Sagan

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:18 PM

249. Finally you come up with lists...

...but what lists!

So you say that Environmental stewardship is a conservative idea? I know Nixon put the EPA through, but there was plenty of pressure to do that from liberal groups. And Balancing a checkbook????? So you are saying that liberal ideas do not include balancing budgets? Yet it is Republican (i.e. conservative) Presidents who run up the national deficit, every time (remember Cheney and his "deficits don't matter" remark). And Wearing a condom?????????? Where the hell did you get that as a conservative idea????? That is really, really, really weird. At the moment the only reason you might say wearing a condom is a conservative idea, is the fact that it may be the only method of birth control left if they have their way.

Now for the liberal ideas. Free Love was not a "liberal" idea as such, it was a movement idea that caught on after birth control became widely used and all the boys decided that women no longer had any reason to say "no" to them anymore, and managed to convince a lot of women. It died a lingering death, with the final blow being AIDS, which really put a kibosh on lots of recreational sex with lots of partners. And please do tell, what policy prescriptions the liberals have proposed in order to promote either Free Love or Feeling Good. And while you're at it, please explain why Feeling Good is a bad idea? Honestly it seems to me that if more people felt good, they would spend less time and energy trying to make everyone else miserable... And Drone Strikes??? The fact that the Obama administration has chosen to widen the program does not make Drone Strikes per se a liberal idea. Most liberals that I know are very uncomfortable with it, although they tend to buy into the comforting pap that it saves our soldiers from harm's way and therefore is a Good Thing. Environmental Terrorism, insofar as it exists, is the actions of single-issue fringe groups, NOT a "liberal idea" (and hey, nice tactic there, trying to pin a "terrorist" idea on liberals, well done). Furthermore, again, you cannot point to any liberal policy that espouses it, so it is disingenuous to put it on a list like this. Finally, Communism: as we all know, first of all, real "Communism" has never been implemented on a large scale. So-called "Communist" countries were really centralized, command and control economies. It's no wonder that didn't work. But in any case it is not a "liberal" idea, it is an ideology on its own.

All in all I think you came in here and decided to tell a bunch of us that our presence here is not to your liking. Well, waddaya gonna do about it? I've been here all along since 2002, and I don't feel like leaving nor do I intend ever to rein in my opinions, certainly not for someone who comes and goes and when they come back they proceed to try and tear down a large segment of the participants here. All I can say, is kudos for you for participating in OWS. But you aren't really listening, you seem to have formed your own ideology about how things work and how things should be and you feel perfectly comfortable coming to a political discussion board and excoriating people whose ideas do not mesh perfectly with your own... weird.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #249)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:05 PM

314. Is this an invitation to discussion

or did you just want to find a way to marginalize me. Kick me out of your party? I do not excoriate people whose ideas do not mesh with my own, I excoriate people who are busy doing the same to others. People that I know. The contempt we show for other people's ideas is going to be the death of us. An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

BTW, I admitted in my post that, having a preference for Liberal ideas, I don't have many criticisms. I also admitted to trying to play the devil's advocate so I don't understand how you would take those ideas as being at the core of who I am.

Environmental Stewardship started under Theodore Roosevelt who claimed it as a Conservative position and sold it legislatively as a Conservative position.
There have been a number of solid policy decisions stemming from "Free Love" and "Feeling good." Roe vs. Wade, decisions on Contraceptive education, Policy decisions that have made it easier for Single Mothers, Gay marriage, Legalization of Marijuana, etc. I happen to agree with many of those policy decisions. Some of them are in reaction to those movements and some of them are in support of those movements.

Drone strikes. I got nothing.

Lastly, you are correct in your assessment that my post was a reaction to the comments of some in DU. Mostly it is in reaction to the heavy handed comments that attack Moderates, other DUers (like myself) who are interested in actual Legislative action and Conservative family and friends that some of us are steadily working on. It is a reaction to violent and hateful rhetoric found as vividly here on DU in the last couple of weeks as it is on Conservative websites. That is what I am reacting to, if I am unartful in doing so, then fine. But don't put me in a box and kick me down the road. It just proves my point.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #314)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:20 PM

354. It is not an invitation to discussion...

...it IS discussion.

I am not trying to "marginalize" you, nor am I in any position to kick anyone out of any party (nor do I wish to be in such a position).

You are correct on the environmental stewardship thing -- my bad. Much credit to Teddy Roosevelt on that score! However, we should remember, that was over 100 years ago. Much has changed since then, especially in the Republican Party! Today's party does not represent such ideals nor has it, for many a long year.

What my real point is, is that this is a political discussion board, specifically for Democrats and progressives. Given the absolute intransigence of the Republicans for the last 30 years, and especially for the last 20 years, is it any surprise that there are strong reactions to their actions? You have the impeachment of Clinton, which was a travesty; you have the GWBush years, which were a disaster; and you have the current crop of Republicans in Congress, which is the most stubborn and misguided group yet to wield power in our country, at least in my lifetime. So yes, you are going to hear very strong words concerning the party.

What in your view would be an appropriate reaction to a party that: - wants to remove women's right to control their own health care? - wants to proceed with Big Oil policies and squash Green policies, while the world burns? - wants to tax the poor so the rich can have even more? Really, seriously, what would you have us do? Personally I find that most of our political dialog is much too easy on these scoundrels. DU is one of the few places to go to get more hard-hitting opinions.

Now with that said, when it comes down to the personal level, I am very willing to talk to people who do not share my political beliefs and to find common ground. It is necessary in order to make our country work, and we all should be able to admit that politicians lie to us and manipulate us -- even those on "our" side.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #354)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:20 PM

417. Did liberals oppose Theo Roosevelt's environmental stewardship idea at the time? Do they now?

If not, it doesn't go in the column for the cons. And since cons now do oppose it, and liberals defend it, it goes in the liberal column.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #354)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:47 PM

462. I just posted in another thread on this topic.

Apparently, by doing so I was lame, but at the risk of being lame again, here it is.

"Proceed, Governor"

Two words that have defined the first term of President Obama.

It has been remarked upon, ad nauseam, that Obama plays chess while others play checkers. He is an historical figure more concerned with the long game than feel good short term wins. A Progressive out to win a war, not waste his time and resources on petty engagements. In those two words, Obama revealed his overall strategy. A strategy employed by wise mothers and fathers throughout the centuries. Give 'em enough rope to hang themselves.

Examine the last four years. You can see, step by step, how Obama continued to maintain his resolve and chart a path forward in the face of extreme opposition. The Republicans refused to look at Universal Health care, Obama side stepped them into what amounts to single payer. Given enough time, insurance companies will find Health care less and less profitable and the public will see less and less reason for archaic insurance middle men. The Birthers demanded Certificates and Obama held out until a high profile, possible presidential candidate feel for it, then he revealed. The Tea Party continued to threaten to shut down government, Obama let them up to the point where they were critically wounded by a bad credit rating, which plummeted their approval rating to all time lows. Obama asked for a 1% raise in taxes on those making $250,000 to pay for infrastrutcture, they refused, so the offer was made of a 1% increase for millionaires, they still refused.

Simply put, Obama allowed the Tea Party, Mitch McConnell and all the rest of the GOP to continue to spew garbage and gave them very, very little to show for it. In the meantime, the general public got full view of the extremism that had taken hold of the GOP. Last week, the public showed them what they thought of it all. While the GOP managed to hold onto most of their gerrymandered congressional districts, they lost in the Senate and Obama was victorious. The Tea Party lost a number of its most extreme voices, and Bachman almost lost hers. Massachussets woke up and rejected any support they had for a semi-Republican, and now, it looks like Arizona is turning purple.

I posted a marbly-mouthed, peevish, pre-coffee rant this morning that turned into an argument about compromise. There are those flush with victory who think now is the time make demands, to seek revenge. I, myself, am guilty of numerous posts on other boards attacking Teapers and their ilk. I own up to my own lack of patience and personal hypocrisy. But why should we stop now? The GOP is on the ropes and we have the general public in our hands, why spoil that? Let them dangle on that rope a little longer. I know.. I KNOW... I know that Obama has this under control. I feel safe that he is steering the ship port side.

It took Mittbot a full 10 seconds after "Could you say that again, Candy" to understand that he blew it. You could see the panic in his eyes. It took me a few minutes to figure out that Obama had done it again.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #314)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:49 AM

534. Wow. By not implementing your own OP advice, you're not helping your credibility here.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #249)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:32 PM

389. Winner! You get the Perfect Response Award! nt.






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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:35 PM

280. Ugh.

Wearing a condom is a conservative idea?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:43 PM

293. No, small government is not a good idea

I don't have time to go into all of these right now, but two jump out at me:

"Small Government" is NOT a good idea. Civil liberties are a good idea - the Bill of Rights is a good idea - but it takes "Big Government" to protect them. Witness what happens to them when left to the States.

"Balancing a checkbook" - eh? wot? Are you talking about "a balanced budget" at the national level? Because the whole notion makes no sense at the Federal level. A nation - a government - is not a household. Nor do even households run on a "balanced budget." They borrow for housing, for education, etc. The very phrasing is right-wing spin in service to their feudal ideology.


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Response to bread_and_roses (Reply #293)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:27 PM

327. I knew

I shouldn't put issues up as the Devil's advocate.

Civil Liberties are always in danger with Big Government. That is why we should be wary of government intrusion. I agree that the Federal Governments best use is with regulation. But I also believe in flexibility and personal freedom, both of which Big Government doesn't do so well with.

Balancing a checkbook is a long held conservative idea that I am sure we can all agree on. On a federal level, there needs to be longer term thinking and flexibility.

"fuedal ideology"? How are those two connected?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #327)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:37 PM

359. You say, "I knew I shouldn't put issues up as the Devil's advocate." Is that what you were doing

 

when you insult other DUers who don't share the positions that you do and say, as you did in the OP,
I look in the mirror here at DU and start to see DU Tea Party reflection

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #327)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:24 PM

419. A stong family unit??

Do you have data to support that this is a conservative value, as opposed to a universal one?

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Response to bread_and_roses (Reply #293)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:53 PM

394. Do you believe Colorado and Washington should be drawn into a legal battle?

Or should Obama, the DEA, and the DoJ respect the voters?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:42 PM

335. Now I know you are full of it

This goes way beyond cherry picking. You are just making shit up.
You are believing the myths of the right wing noise machine.

A strong family unit. (So good the gay community wants to get involved)


So Liberals love their famiies just a little bit less? Have you seen the divorce rates in the Red States?


A strong defense. (NO, not offense)

And leftwing Democrats are NOT for this? Because.... they want to reduce military spending to sane post cold war levels? How many times over that we can blow up the entire planet is "tough enough"? There is a difference between obscenely bloated military budget and a "strong defence"

Isolationism, ie. staying out of the business of other nations.

You must be joking on this one. Iraq invasion was only the latest. Reagan even thought Grenada and Nicaragua were threat enough simply because they both elected a socialist leader. There are US military bases all around the world. We have a School of the Americas right in the US to train torture and suppression methods to visiting military from banana republics. Are you saying the Conservatives would want to shut all that down?

Environmental stewardship.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Balancing a checkbook.

OMG, are you SERIOUS?

Wearing a condom.


Maybe you should ask Rush, the self-appointed Conservative mouthpiece, about that.

Politeness. (Well, it used to be a Conservative idea)

I think you answered your own assumption.

Small government whenever possible.

The last conservative W Bush expanded government more than any other President. "Whenever possible" means whenever the Democrats are in office. Once in, the Republicans even start whole departments (Homeland Security) in order to reward their supporters.

Keeping it local, ie. State's rights first.

Except when it suits them ie. Gore vs. Bush, or altering the Constitution to define marriage.


I understand you were pointing out traditional conservative ideals, but Obama does not have a time machine. What point is there in pretending that Obama will be negotiating with THESE Eisenhower conservatives when we all know that the ones in the House are nothing of the kind. Those Republicans in Washington still call themselves Conservatives, so that's the only ones that are available to negotiate with.

Obama IS a conservative. That's what you seem to fail to understand. If you want to have a conservative/liberal dialogue, with conservatives such as you describe, then the only ones truly available are within the Democratic Party. Blue Dogs, Hillary, Obama, Reid, etc... vs. Kucinich, Baldwin, Warren, and Klobuchar etc..

The modern Conservative Republican is like a pitt bull. And if you throw him a toy he will shred it in 2 minutes and leave it in a thousand pieces and then whine about you not throwing him an even better toy.

Sadly though I think you are right (or correct). He take your advice and will continue to bend over even more. This election was about slowing down the shift to the right instead of leaping into the Bagger Blowout. ie.. only damaging SS and medicare instead of annihilating it altogether. BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #335)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:38 PM

360. Well said.

 

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #335)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 05:34 PM

377. "If you want to have a conservative/liberal dialogue, with conservatives such as you describe,

then the only ones truly available are within the Democratic Party. Blue Dogs, Hillary, Obama, Reid, etc... vs. Kucinich, Baldwin, Warren, and Klobuchar etc.."

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #335)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:49 PM

393. Dammit!

I knew i shouldn't have given away the Perfect Response Award! before i read the whole thread! (Though you gotta admit, it's a long thread)

Perhaps you can have the Bestest Reply Award? (As an added bonus, the acronym for your award is BRA... snicker snicker)



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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #335)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:37 PM

441. Impressive.

That was a verbal down dressing of top quality.






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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #335)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:41 PM

443. +1

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #335)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 12:10 PM

535. Excellent argument. Thanks for this.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:03 PM

343. So drone strikes are a progressive idea now?

Who knew?

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #153)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 07:27 AM

501. Ugh.

Conservatives want to ban contraception, Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive.


You're confusing all sorts of ideologies. And "family" isn't a conservative value its a universal value that conservatives want to limit to heterosexuals.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #34)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:32 PM

112. How about not putting so much money into the defense budget . . .

. . . to pay for some nation building. We already spend more on that than all other nations combined. We can afford to be a little less warmongering don't you think?

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Response to alarimer (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:08 PM

317. Modern Conservative ideas are. But.

Eisenhower built the modern interstate highway system after seeing how powerful that was for Germany. Nixon originated the EPA and believe it or not, some expansions in social programs. Teddy Roosevelt busted Trusts.

Since Nixon's invention of the "southern strategy" republicans have nothing to be proud of, the party has welcomed in the absolute worst elements of society.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #317)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:54 PM

444. Thanks to progressive Ida Tarbell, socialist Upton Sinclair, preservationist John Muir...

and a populace that seemed to pay attention, for helping Teddy Roosevelt along.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:27 AM

10. "Through clever campaigning we managed to get 332 electoral votes": "clever "? "managed to get"?

So you think that's all it was, that actual Democratic ideas and plans and principles were irrelevant? That all Team Obama was, was more "clever" in "campaigning"? That Obama just "managed to get" an overwhelming 332 Electoral votes?

Puts your entire post in quite the interesting perspective.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #10)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:47 AM

43. The Obama campaign said it themselves.

They set out on a campaign strategy to garner electoral votes, not popular votes. They invested heavily in the ground game and ads in states that were key to their success. That is clever campaigning.

They didn't bother campaigning out here in Oregon, nor did they bother campaigning in Mississippi. They weren't looking to sway all the people, they were looking to shore up their base in key counties and states. Look at the numbers.

There was an actual loss of popular and electoral votes between 2008 and 2012. Not exactly an overwhelming "mandate".

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #43)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:18 PM

323. Given the difficult economy and some of the people that voted for Obama the first time, a

loss of votes was expected. I would not call the Obama campaign methods "clever". In my mind "clever" denotes the wrong message, especially since Romney's campaign was doing the exact same things, but just weren't competent at doing them.

Obama of 2008 drew in a lot of starry eyed voters that saw in him a messiah after 8 years of Bush. Obama never claimed to be what they saw him as, but they continued to believe that deep in their hearts. When Obama won and got to the act of governing, those people instantly became disillusioned. They sat out the 2010 mid-terms in massive numbers, an enormous mistake. Many still sat out the 2012 election, them coupled with centrist and right voters that were tired of Bush voting fr 2008 Obama, but many voting for Romney 2012 caused the President to have fewer votes. But getting over 50% of the vote to become only the fourth sitting President to do that in something like 80 years is nothing to sneeze at. Beating your opponent by over 3 million votes with almost everything going against you is no small matter.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #10)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:32 PM

113. Obama "squeaked by!" 332 is only a landslide when Money BooBoo does it, doncha know!

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Response to MADem (Reply #113)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:36 PM

407. The OP knows the real truth, Karl is the only one with the real numbers!

It was actually a Republican mandate and the librul media added EV's as part of the Kenyan conspiracy.

The OP is too smart for our feeble lies and our made up commie numbers!!!!

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #407)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:23 PM

471. Buncha lazy takers 'n socialists, we!

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:27 AM

12. I'll support compromise when the Repubs start acting like a legitimate party again.


I'm no extremist, either. I think the GOP used to have the American interest at heart, even during much of the Reagan Years. Ever since Clinton took over, though, the GOP has gone nuts.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:40 AM

37. I agree

But that is not the point of my post. My point is that I refuse to adopt their tactics. Which is the arrogance I see from some of the purists.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:49 AM

49. Yes, I don't like the punitive nature of some on our side - there is such a thing as 'sore winners.'

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:38 PM

121. Well the president tried last time

And this time to cooperate with the GOP in Congress and he compromised and it did not get better until he used Executive Orders to get anything done and if you think it will be different this time as evidenced by your post you are in denial; GOP will not be different this time as evidenced by their words following the election, the president must use leverage to get anything done in the absence of THEIR cooperation, this is not idealology but a fact

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Response to Blue4Texas (Reply #121)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:33 PM

328. Republicans knew that even if the cooperated, getting the economy healthy in four years

was a heavy lift. They also reasoned that if they didn't cooperate, the President would surely fail. I think that President Obama DIDN'T fail is the very reason why the majority of voters re-elected the President, even as many of those people feel there is work that still must be done.

President Obama must again attempt to work with republicans, but this time use a shorter leash. If they pull bullshit, the President's team must have handy executive orders that the President can use to bypass the republican dominated House. BUt this time around, if the President doesn't get cooperation from republicans, the President and democrats must deliver a clear messages as to who was to blame to voters and not let republicans message their way out of responsibility like republicans did leading up to the 2010 midterms. One advantage that the President and democrats have is that there is no hot button issues like ACA and stimulus for republicans to demonetize. Yes, ACA will go into implementation starting in 2013, but if Health and Human Services does a good job of setting up Health Care exchanges in red states with uncooperative Governors, ACA implementation could work against republicans big time in RED states.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:13 PM

76. This.

You can't negotiate with terrorists.

Threatening to take the country off a fiscal cliff unless cuts are made to Medicare is blackmail. Give in and all you're getting is more of the same.

Mitch McConnell came out and said it. The GOP's #1 concern is bringing down Obama. They don't care about the debt, the wars, the housing crisis, climate change, energy shortages, decaying infrastructure or the real human cost of any of those things. All the care about is getting our guy out of there and replacing him with someone who won't raise taxes on the rich. And they don't give a shit how much America bleeds until they do.

There's no acceptable middle ground there for either party. Republicans need to come back to putting America first and wealthy donors and party loyalty second and then we can think about "compromise".

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #76)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:29 PM

104. +100

Thank you.

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #76)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:19 PM

179. You can't negotiate with terrorists

 

+100000

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #179)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 12:15 AM

481. Right on the money, that. nt

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:28 AM

13. Kudos

I totally agree.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:28 AM

14. I am just curious

What -would- constitute a mandate for President Obama?

Just askin'

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Response to solara (Reply #14)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:41 AM

39. How about NOT letting Republicans have a majority in the House of Representives?

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Response to randome (Reply #39)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:54 AM

57. Gerrymandering

Hard to make a dent in those politically drawn districts.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #57)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 03:48 PM

339. Republicans were successful in Gerrymandering because the liberal purists sat on their asses,

or supported third party candidates that never had a chance. I lived through their efforts during the 2010 race for Governor in my state. The purists and Jill Stein were determined to have their way, even as polls showed the race a dead-heat and 9% of Independents undecided. The Stein people could have given the election to the republican, who was being supported by the likes of Haley Barbour, the thing that fried me is the Stein people KNEW THAT but spent all their efforts attacking the incumbent democrat, not ONE FUCKING effort was made against the republican. That 9% of Independents? Fortunate for our side, Independents broke better than 3 to 1 for the incumbent. My state is doing well economically now and is first in the nation in education attainment. My Governor, Deval Patrick, gave a stem-winder of a speech at the DNC in August.

People, we must contest every Presidential election, every State and Local election, every midterm, in particular the midterm in 2018 which will happen before another census. We can't let republicans keep gerrymandering themselves alive, when their views and policy should have killed the party a long time ago.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #339)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 09:06 AM

513. I see Libertarian candidates, too

You should stop acting like a third-party candidate with a tiny budget could somehow cause even a single voter to be oblivious to a Democrat's high-powered advertising campaign... or that third parties don't also form on the Right.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #57)

Tue Nov 13, 2012, 06:53 AM

499. Then campaign to end gerrymandering

It seems a natural thing to consider while the Obama camp are making (small) noises about voting reform.

Oh wait-- That would entail Progressives "shoving" their will down other peoples' throats.

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Response to solara (Reply #14)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:42 AM

40. Florida and Virginia were a good start.

To me, a mandate would look more 60/40.

To me a mandate would have been North Carolina and one of the Dakotas, possibly Montana.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #40)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:34 PM

116. So you know, this is a mandate

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Response to CaptJasHook (Reply #40)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:02 PM

342. I see Virginia staying blue and Florida becoming reliably Blue as long as democrats govern well.

I see North Carolina flipping back to blue and staying there if democrats get their act together in that state. One positive in North Carolina, although it now looks like a negative, is that republicans won the Governor's chair while increasing their hold on the state legislature. Republican have shown that when they have those conditions, they can't help but fuck themselves up, turning off voters during the process.

I really can see the Dakotas and Montana flipping to blue often moving forward. Recent election activity in those states, even if one ignore Tuesday show them to be swinging toward moderation. As the republican party swings more rightward, I can see the Dakotas and Montana being the first to split from that coalition, along with Texas and maybe Arizona. I don't see any reliably blue states changing unless republicans moderate seriously or democrats govern poorly.

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Response to CaptJasHook (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:29 AM

15. I have yet to see any movement on the right

We can not always give them 98% of what they want.
We might as well not run any Dems and save our money and time

Waiting for you to answer the questions posted above my post

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:30 AM

20. Top Repub leaders talking about immigration reform and taxing the rich.

That's a real and promising beginning.

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Response to kstewart33 (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 11:34 AM

26. Wow, they mentioned two whole topics but without plans! Oh, and about "taxing the rich"?

Yeah, don't hold your proverbial breath.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 12:40 PM

124. In the real world where I live

This is how compromise actually starts.

But I live in the reality based world, not partisan lenses on everything.

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