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Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:07 PM

Shouldn't Obama just do nothing and let this so-called fiscal cliff thing happen?

I mean taxes will go up to what they were in the 90's and the military will be cut. Everybody wins. The only bad things that will happen is that the unemployment checks will run out but social security and medicaid will still be intact. Is it worth it?

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Reply Shouldn't Obama just do nothing and let this so-called fiscal cliff thing happen? (Original post)
craigmatic Nov 2012 OP
Submariner Nov 2012 #1
craigmatic Nov 2012 #3
PETRUS Nov 2012 #6
RBInMaine Nov 2012 #2
jberryhill Nov 2012 #5
ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2012 #12
jberryhill Nov 2012 #21
craigmatic Nov 2012 #8
AndyA Nov 2012 #4
ancianita Nov 2012 #7
pinto Nov 2012 #9
Codeine Nov 2012 #10
Brother Buzz Nov 2012 #11
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #13
Still Sensible Nov 2012 #14
craigmatic Nov 2012 #16
reformist2 Nov 2012 #15
craigmatic Nov 2012 #17
KT2000 Nov 2012 #18
eqfan592 Nov 2012 #19
One of the 99 Nov 2012 #38
woo me with science Nov 2012 #20
LisaL Nov 2012 #27
woo me with science Nov 2012 #41
pa28 Nov 2012 #22
bkkyosemite Nov 2012 #23
Bucky Nov 2012 #24
Autumn Nov 2012 #25
Savannahmann Nov 2012 #31
LisaL Nov 2012 #26
vaberella Nov 2012 #28
ItsTheMediaStupid Nov 2012 #30
LisaL Nov 2012 #34
flamingdem Nov 2012 #29
Progressive dog Nov 2012 #32
sfwriter Nov 2012 #33
LisaL Nov 2012 #35
Ruby the Liberal Nov 2012 #42
theaocp Nov 2012 #36
Motown_Johnny Nov 2012 #37
tularetom Nov 2012 #39
Ruby the Liberal Nov 2012 #40
UnrepentantLiberal Nov 2012 #43

Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:11 PM

1. Paul Krugman said Obama should let this puppy go over the cliff

the world does not end the next morning, a few weeks before bills are due are still available to squeeze each others nuts until someone screams UNCLE!

I'm with Krugman. Tell the republics to get on board or get the F out of the way.

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Response to Submariner (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:14 PM

3. Do you think it'll hurt the economy?

The increase in payroll taxes and fewer unemployment checks going out I mean.

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Response to craigmatic (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:17 PM

6. Not immediately

Delaying a few weeks for the purposes of negotiation is one thing. Doing nothing, ever, would be allowing severe austerity.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:14 PM

2. Sorry but NUMB thing to say on this. Please, get into reality. Tax cuts YES for the MIDDLE CLASS.

Are you trapped in a LEFT WING PURIST bubble? It is just as bad as the right wing TeaBag bubble. Obama has campaigned on his position and has said now for YEARS he supports continuing the MIDDLE CLASS cuts and letting them expire just for the richest 2% as it should be. Sheesh. There is a chance to DESTROY the last vestiges of Republican credibility on THIS issue. Obama is playing it PERFECTLY. He is going to CRUSH them on the issue if they don't agree to his BALANCED approach.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:17 PM

5. Sorry, but...

The only way this is going to work is to let them ALL expire, and then come back with a middle class tax cut, and let the GOP kill themselves for the 2014 elections by trying to oppose it.

There is PLENTY of time to get that done between January and April.

Absolutely, the rate on the middle class should not be raised, but the only way to do that without having to "offer" some other tribute is to LET THEM ALL EXPIRE FIRST.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:24 PM

12. Why is allowing tax cuts to EXPIRE characterized as RAISING taxes? When is TEMPORARY

no longer temporary?

I keep hearing "rasing taxes" as the talking point, like on State of the Union today. The tax cuts were temporary, ALL of them, on the rich and on the middle class.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:42 PM

21. When people see their paycheck deductions go up...

...they won't know the history behind it.

What they will need to see at that point is a president hell-bent on getting them back down.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:18 PM

8. Nothing ideological about this post but some middle class people are going to hurt

if they let the unemployment checks expire. I'm for a middle class tax cut by the way but there might not be one if the republicans decide to try to screw Obama over after he does this.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:16 PM

4. I say let it happen.

When it does, President Obama goes on television to explain to the nation that the Republicans were protecting the top income earners in the nation, at the expense of everyone else.

He can explain how well the top earners have done financially over the last decade or so, and ask America if they have done as well. He can end by encouraging EVERYONE to call their Republicans in Congress and demand that they do their jobs and stop protecting the wealthy and sacrificing everyone else.

America is not happy with the GOP right now, and I don't think the GOP wants to deal with a bunch of angry constituents after the pounding they just received. (But maybe the GOP isn't smart enough to figure that out.)

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:18 PM

7. Yes. He should let it happen. Conservatives will come around on SS bills.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:19 PM

9. "The only bad things that will happen is that the unemployment checks will run out"

That's bad enough in my book to support yet another short term compromise to avoid sequestration.

fwiw, It looks as though Obama is setting the stage for keeping the tax levels static for those making < $250,000 and letting the rates for those making > $250,000 resume to earlier levels. He has said he'll veto any bill that doesn't include that provision.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:20 PM

10. Lovely. As long as it doesn't impact YOUR immediate livelihood. . . nt

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:20 PM

11. Obama laid our a pretty simple suggestion and has a pen in his hand...waiting

The ball in Boehner's court.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:27 PM

13. Of course, but that doesn't fit into the narrative being pushed on the ill-informed.

 

The military cuts will be pushed onto the troops while the corporate welfare queen's checks will keep rolling out unabated. We will be inundated with pictures and stories of Suzie Singlemom being thrown out into the streets because her unemployment ran out (with no mention at all of the fact that her state government is why). The "news" will once again start reporting on every mismanaged company that is laying off workers. They'll turn up the volume on the "Social Security is bankrupting the nation" meme to 11.

And we will eat it up with a spoon and feel sufficiently moral about sacrificing even more of our wealth and future to the pigs that own this nation.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:31 PM

14. Don't think so.

Just my humble opinion, but I think the ripple effect of the provisions in that deal would be disastrous and send the economy into, at the very least, a halt to the slow steady progress of the last three years. At worst, it could set off another tailspin.

There is no problem whatsoever in letting the tax cuts on the wealthy expire--the non-partisan report from last week said so clearly. The middle class tax cuts, which the administration wants to continue, would have some negative effect on consumer spending if they were discontinued, but probably not disastrous.

The real problems would be from everything else in that deal. The unemployment decrease you note, plus all the people thrown out of work as contracts get canceled, would seriously screw up this delicate recovery. As much as most of us on this board want to see serious, but sane reductions in military spending, I'm afraid simply allowing the so-called fiscal cliff to happen is too dangerous economically.

My guess is that the threat from the administration to allow the deal to take effect is real... and that the President will not back down if the Bush tax cuts aren't ceded. I also suspect the military spending at risk is so dear to the republicans that they are motivated to give up the high-end tax cuts--Grover notwithstanding--to protect them.

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:34 PM

16. I hope you're right about the last part but I don't have that much confidence in the repubs

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:34 PM

15. It's going to hurt everyone in the short run, but it will be worth it when Repugs cave in.

This is Obama's moment. To reverse the tide on endless tax cuts for the rich and to get Repugs to admit that actual tax rate increases on the rich are sound fiscal policy. (And to be honest, it might end up being a big relief to the Repugs to finally break free of Grover Norquist's thrall.)

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:36 PM

17. True but then the question becomes how long is the short run and how much will it hurt.

If it hurts too long and too much we might lose the argument and the next elections.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:37 PM

18. Leadership!

This was a campaign issue and he has to fight for it. No games - exercise leadership so it is very clear who caused the tax increases for the low and middle income people if it is over the cliff we go.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:38 PM

19. Don't forget about the 277,000 federal employees that may lose their jobs.

It's not just the tax cuts and unemployment checks at risk. I'm one of those employees, and am willing to go over the cliff to keep those GOP assholes from holding the nation hostage.

Just don't forget about us.

My hope is that if we do go over, it's only a temporary thing.

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:53 PM

38. Or the millions that will lose unemployment insurance nt

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:41 PM

20. He should not only let it happen,

he should give passionate speeches about why. He should reclaim the narrative from thirty years of bullshit lies about what is good for our country and tell the goddamn truth about how austerity starves economies and entrenches a predatory oligarchy that is eating America alive.

Wouldn't it be nice.

We should be massing in Washington to oppose austerity and cuts to Medicare and Social Security.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:18 PM

27. And so you don't care about people supported by federal money losing their jobs?

And considering your "woo me with science handle," you do realize that science in US is supported by federal money? That will be cut too, leading to a lot of people losing their careers. There will be very few people left to "woo you with science."

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Response to LisaL (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 03:07 PM

41. Oh my word.

SCIENTISTS will lose their jobs if we don't cooperate with the right wing!!!!1!!

And guess what? The economy will slow, and millions more will lose their food and shelter if we do.

We have now entered the Twilight Zone of desperation when it comes to Third Way arguments to excuse austerity.

Sorry, Lisa. Americans *already* know, desperately and personally, how many are "losing their careers," and their homes, and their futures as a direct result of destructive economic policies and Third Way apologism for them that you advocate here.

The excuses don't fly anymore. The country has spoken, and it is time for the looting to stop.

______________________________________
Reject Third Way propaganda, especially now.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021791044






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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:45 PM

22. The result will a shallow recession and we'll all pay a little more in tax.

The budget will be nearly balanced by 2015 and the pressure to gut SS and medicare will be off.

I'm fine with it and if Republicans cared half as much about balancing the budget as claimed they would be too.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:00 PM

23. Let them Expire Expire Expire....no more blackmail from the rethugs.....sickening pieces of.........

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:10 PM

24. Like stopping unemployment checks is no big deal. People will lose their homes.

Not negotiating with hostage takers isn't the same thing as just ignoring their threats. If there's no provision for the most vulnerable among us, Obama will be equally to blame. This isn't a game of whip it out and see who's biggest. It's about governing a complicated and politically divided nation.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:16 PM

25. Yes. I'm really not seeing a down side to that. Then the Democrats can

put up stand alone bills on tax breaks and unemployment and let the fucking gop vote against them.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:30 PM

31. The Senate can

The Rethugs control the House. While the Senate is putting up stand alone bills, so will the Rethugs. All the while, they'll be using their allies in the MSM to push the Meme that Democrats want nothing but higher taxes on everyone. The plan is obvious now, it was worked out months ago as a fall back position for if/when Robme lost.

At the same time, the Rethugs are going to be pushing the scandals of Fast and Furious, and Benghazi. Add into that General Betrayus who it turned out, betrayed everyone he could at every opportunity. The plan includes an attempt at death from a thousand paper cuts.

Now, how is the President going to look while nine and ten percent unemployment are going on? We're looking at only one prong of the attack. The other is the wannabe Plutocrats who are laying off, closing shops, and outright firing people while the DoD is canceling contracts while Sequestration is going on. If the Rethugs have gamed this out right, then unemployment could spiral up to over 10%.

Now what can we do? Battle for control of the House in 2014? The Rethugs had the state houses, and redrew their maps to give themselves seriously safe districts. Enough to almost guarantee control of the House to 2020. They didn't dilute their districts, they made them nearly bulletproof. Barring a major change in the demographics of those districts, you can expect the Rethugs to maintain control of the House. That prevents any legislative action acceptable to our side, as long as the Rethugs are in control. To get jobs bills through, we'll have to accept tax cuts for the rich, which are unacceptable. Every gain we get, comes with a compromise from the Rethugs that is intolerable for our side.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:17 PM

26. No.

It's not just military that will be cut.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:19 PM

28. To the people advocating letting this happen...they're out of their minds. n/t

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Response to vaberella (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:30 PM

30. Paul Krugman isn't out of his mind and neither am I

Would it be bad? Yes.

Would it be worse than letting Speaker Boner hold us hostage for two more years? No.

The tax rates have to go up and if this is the only way to do it, so be it.

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Response to ItsTheMediaStupid (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:41 PM

34. So you are fine with FEMA being subjected to cuts?

Which is what going to happen if nothing is done.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:22 PM

29. I wish we could do it but it will further wreck the US credit rating

and cost us big time long run.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:31 PM

32. No-but it will probably happen anyway

I expect both the President and Harry Reid to not allow a bill that does not let upper income tax rates go back. I do not expect Boehner to give in until they have expired, if then.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:31 PM

33. Yes, and then get congress to pass a payroll and middle class cut... permanently.

Remember, this was the big experiment. This was going to prove that cutting taxes for the rich created jobs. In ten years, we would GLADLY renew it. FU didn't happen, Republican trick.

Defense cuts, same thing, Republican punt. FU, didn't happen.

These are not fiscal conservatives.

Let them sweat a bit.

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Response to sfwriter (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:43 PM

35. Payroll? Who is going to go on that payroll?

Unemployment rate will spike.

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Response to sfwriter (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 03:12 PM

42. Rather than a payroll cut, raise the limit

I think its like $106k for 2012? Raise that to the first $250k (or what Republicans call "middle class" )

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:48 PM

36. K&R

Usual suspects don't accept taking the bitter with the sweet from the progressive side. They only see things as conservatives frame them. Sad and pathetic pandering for nothing. Let this shit go to the wayside. Work from there.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:52 PM

37. He needs to appear to be trying to stop it

so that any fallout from it is blamed on Congress.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:54 PM

39. Earth to Pres. Obama: learn how to play poker

Don't tell them what's in your hand.

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 03:04 PM

40. Robert Reich made the case for this a few weeks ago.

The article is behind a paywall, but Business Insider captured the main message:

http://www.businessinsider.com/fiscal-cliff-more-like-gentle-hill-2012-10

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Response to craigmatic (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 03:15 PM

43. Yes.

 

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