Reject Third Way propaganda, *especially* now.

[woo me with science]

Last edited Sun Nov 11, 2012, 05:11 PM - Edit history (3)

The Third Way/corporate-faction-of-our-party bids for passivity and low expectations re: "The Grand Bargain" have begun.

We were spared them for a few days during celebration over the elections, but the corporate mantra is starting to crop up all over the boards now, from the same familiar corners. Don't buy it.

You will hear the usual prepping for acceptance of a new "Grand Bargain" to impose trillions in austerity on Americans:

"We don't hold the House." 'Obama can't get anything unless he compromises." "You're just a purist." "Tax increases don't have popular support." "We have to address the deficit."

The arguments are tired, stale, and insulting. They are also economically irresponsible. The fact is that we have a tide of real change happening, so of course the corporate pushback will be strong and pervasive in every bit of media the one percent can reach, down to discussion boards on the internet. The defeatist messages are corporate-derived, even in cases where the ones repeating them do not realize it.

Reject the propaganda about our weak hand. Obama just carried every single swing state, with polls showing decisively that Americans, even across party lines, utterly reject Simpson Bowles and cutting Medicare and Social Security. Austerity is wildly unpopular among the electorate, for sound economic reasons. Europe is collapsing under austerity, and reasoned and educated voices are multiplying to proclaim that multi-trillion dollar budget slashing and austerity are a scam and an assault on a nation. They are not only NOT healthy like eating your peas....They are economically destructive.

Democrats who *truly* oppose austerity and Republican policies don't start out by preaching about bipartisanship and party weakness, especially when we have unprecedented public support and momentum now behind our party to do the right thing for the nation. Every bit of evidence...from economic data, to polls, to results of this decisive election.... is coalescing around the consensus that telling the one percent and the Republicans exactly what they can do with their austerity is not only the popular thing to do, but the economically responsible thing to do.

We hold the cards now, by every measure. The nation is with us. There are plenty of excellent prescriptions in thoughtful media, and in history, for how we can do this, EVEN with a Republican House:

Voters Didn't Ask for Bi-Partisanship, They Demanded Good Policies...Obama holds the cards this time
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021789621

Budget cutting in a depression just deepens the depression
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021789566

It is well past time for the deliberate looting of the poor and middle classes to stop, and for the looters to be hobbled once and for all. We must pressure our politicians to seize this opportunity for real leadership and real change. Don't let the conversation be derailed by the same tired, destructive propaganda. We hold the cards this time.

[Egalitarian Thug]

1. You're absolutely right. The People have spoken and now we will be ignored.

The upcoming SCOTUS appointments were the only reason I even voted in the Presidential race.

By limiting our options to bad and far worse, they've got us just where they want us.

[Maraya1969]

134. Sticking this here because we all need to be contacting Boehner's office regularly.

To tell him that the people want tax increased on the very wealthy and not to cut entitlement programs.

Office of the Speaker
H-232 The Capitol
Washington, DC 20515
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]


http://www.speaker.gov/contact For email


Here is a part of what I sent to him the other day:

Dear Speaker Boehner:

This country wants to go back to the tax system of the Clinton years, when every prospered, not just the top few. We do not need a monkey like you throwing a wrench into our desires.

Polls show that up to 80% of people want to tax the 1%. Who are you to decide not to? Just look to the results of the elections on November 6th to see how this country is feeling about Repbulicans and maybe make a decision about whether you should change your behavior or not. I'd say you were given a clear message that you are not very well liked. I don't know how you can stand yourself for what you have done in the last 2 years. You have blocked jobs bills, you have even blocked a veterans jobs bill; all because you wanted the President to fail. And what did Karma have to say about that? YOU FAILED! But also the American people suffered.

You had better get straight with yourself and with your God and with your country and fast. Work with OUR President!

[woo me with science]

138. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Activism is so much better than complaining about excessive activism.

[Egalitarian Thug]

186. Glad to help, but how sad it is that we are now reduced to begging republicans

for what was a drastic reduction from what we had just a decade previously. A tax policy, BTW, that set a foundation for the rise of the billionaires at the expense of the workers.

[Teamster Jeff]

2. K&R

[jp11]

3. One only needs to look at the budget put together by the Progressive Caucus

to see how things could be done AND that the majority of the country agrees. Charming, representatives working to solve problems they were elected by the people to do by enacting the people's will, so charming no one talks about it or acknowledges it whenever discussions about the deficit or budget come up.

http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-budget/

[PETRUS]

4. Rec #5 checking in. nt

[quinnox]

5. Just wait, if the grand bargain does happen, watch the cheerleading for

it from the usual suspects here.

"This is great, those damn republicans wanted social security or medicare slashed by 30%, and our side got it down to where its only slashed by 10%! What a win we pulled off!"

[InsultComicDog]

14. sigh

[BlueCaliDem]

26. ...

[FredStembottom]

44. I am just waiting for the usual names to appear and tell us they hate us.

All for wanting what works as well as what is popular as well as what the voters now expect.

I realize the House may stop things but I demand that our D.C. Dems take 100 % advantage of the Teachable Moment that fighting for what's right presents!

[Scootaloo]

109. I've been hearing this shit for four years

Constantly. CONSTANTLY. And that's all it is, is shit. You all sound EXACTLY like the republicans; that sneaky devil is going to steal their guns and bibles, and he's going to steal your medicare and social security. SAME EXACT FUCKING NONSENSE.

Evidence? Who needs evidence! Counter-evidence? Well, everyone knows he's a tricky con-man who can't be trusted, right?

Get lost.

[WinkyDink]

165. Did you miss Paul Ryan's words about Medicare and Social Security? BTW, who is "he"?

[emulatorloo]

205. Paul Ryan is for real. It is the "If" statements that are tiresome bullshit.

A handful of very loud DU'ers have been pushing "Obama Has A Secret Plan To Destroy the Safety Net" for 4 years.

Like scootaloo, I see it as just as lame as freepers who say Obama has a secret plan to take your guns and bibles.

[Scootaloo]

212. Someone named "Emulatorloo" is agreeing with me?

Well, that's a strange thing

[emulatorloo]

220. Lol

[SidDithers]

110. And if it doesn't happen, will the other "usual suspects" admit they were wrong?...

Or will they move on to the next outrage, pretending this one never existed?

Sid

[BlueCaliDem]

121. True to their habit

they'll move on to the next poutrage and pretend they've been supporting President Obama all along!

Same-o, same-o.

[FSogol]

145. +1 n/t

[reformist2]

6. If we don't increase tax RATES on the rich now, it will be YEARS before we get another chance.

To me, tax fairness is is the #1 priority. And it is the biggest mandate from this election.

[emulatorloo]

66. Huge mandate for increasing taxes on wealthy.. Boehner and McConnell have 0 leverage

[ProudProgressiveNow]

92. +1 nt

[AgingAmerican]

131. No need to increase rates

Just let the Bush tax cuts expire, as the Repukes originally intended.

The Boehner will say, "You cant raise taxes in a time of _________________________"
place situation of the moment here

So flipping what. Let them cry.

[bvar22]

181. Letting the Bush Tax Cuts expire is not NEAR enough.

We need to go back to the tax structure of the 50s /60s.

Republican President Dwight Eisenhower said that it was the Patriotic Duty of The RICH and War Profiteers to help pay down The Debt from WW2,
and set the top bracket at 90%!.

After the War Debt was paid off, JFK lowered the rate on the top bracket to 71% and Capital Gains at 25%!.

America prospered, built the Largest, Wealthiest, and Most Upwardly Mobile Working Class the World had ever seen,
and people STILL got RICH!



It seems kinda stupid to be fighting for just a meager 3.5% tax increase on the Wealthiest Americans.
In reality, we are fighting FOR extremely LOW taxes on the RICHEST Americans, and will celebrate a VICTORY if we get these historically low rates!

MAN are "they" good a framing the debate.




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

189. Rec.

[AgingAmerican]

200. I agree completely

Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:25 PM - Edit history (1)

The top marginal rate under Eisenhower was 92%. This applied to those making today's equivalent of 2 million dollars a year and up. Instead of taking their profit out as income, they would reinvest it in their business and take it out later as equity loans, which their business would pay off. This led to phenomenal growth. My dad told me that jobs were plentiful back in those days. We had 30 years of unprecedented growth and economic stability up until Reagan ended it.

Now they encourage hoarding their money, like Romney does by hiding it in offshore accounts. This drains the economy and concentrates wealth in the hands of a few.

My previous statement was in reference to the Bush tax cuts.

[CTyankee]

225. You are absolutely right! We simply must get this piece of economic justice in place to move

forward, toward a more just income distribution. The Republicans have their backs to the wall, IMO, or else they wouldn't be backtracking so rapidly after the election.

[hay rick]

191. Job one. nt

[leftstreet]

7. DURec

[craigmatic]

8. One thing we learned from Clinton was that the good you get from thrid way compromises is gone once

you leave office but the bad lingers decades after you leave. Besides sometimes it's better to do nothing when the actions you take can cause damage.

[Oilwellian]

9. It sure didn't take long for the rhetoric to begin

Of course, we knew it was coming, didn't we Woo?

[pasto76]

21. yes. radical is radical even if it is on DU. these people arent helping anything either

screaming about "no compromise" is EXACTLY THE SAME THING THE PUBS ARE DOING.

The American government CAN NOT FUNCTION WITHOUT COMPROMISE.

this "third way" bullshit is some of the dumbest shit ever.

[BlueCaliDem]

28. We have

Purists among us, too. They didn't help in 2010 because they didn't get everything they wanted so in order to get everything they want and to punish President Obama, they stayed home and got MORE Republicans elected to the House and Senate. THEN they started to wail and cry that they *still* didn't get everything they wanted.

I have very little patience for narcissists in any party.

[pasto76]

64. true dat

[sabrina 1]

167. And there is that false information about the 2010 election once again. Progressive Dems

saved the Party in 2010 because despite their disappointments they went out and voted. It was INDEPENDENTS who were lost because of those same disappointments.

And we 'purists' tried to warn what would happen if Democrats after we won the House and the Senate and the WH did not push for Democratic policies and get rid of Bush policies. Too bad we don't have more 'purists' in the Party and we would not have had all our work in 2008 destroyed by those who are far too willing to work with the extremists on the Right. I am still furious over the way the Party Leadership lost that election for us.

[coalition_unwilling]

175. It wasn't members of the Progressive Caucus who were defeated for the most part in 2010. Instead,

it was Blue Dogs who bit the dust as voters went for the 'real deal' rather than a pallid imitation of it.

This business of Rahm telling me I'm "fucking retarded' (for presuming to support primary challenges to Blue Dogs) and then Obama telling me I need to have my "head examined" (on 60 Minutes after the extra-judicial execution of Osama bin Laden for presuming to question the circumstances and logic of our assassination policies) were but two factors that caused me to cast a protest vote for the Greens in 2012. Yeah, had I been in a swing state, I would have grudgingly voted for Obama. But I sure didn't volunteer for him this year. That's for suckers.

[sabrina 1]

216. Yes, Progressives voted for Progressives and kept them in Congress. Only two lost, Grayson and

Feingold and millions were spent to get them out of Congress. This lie that Progressives stayed home in 2010 persists no matter how often it is corrected. I guess the DLC wing of the party knows what happened, they screwed up, and do not want the facts to be known.

Grayson is back!

Once again it was Progressives who won yet another election for their Party, and once again the DLC wing is ready to toss them aside. No way will people tolerate this anymore.

Remember when they ran out of excuses after the 2008 election and blamed everything on the Blue Dogs? Lol, so we got rid of the Blue Dogs, now we got rid of their last excuse, most of the most rabid Tea Baggers. When all someone has is excuses, really you just have to leave behind and proceed with what needs to be done. So sick of the excuses frankly.

[bvar22]

177. "The Left caused the losses in 2010" has been debunked many times at DU.

The Left is the ONLY reason 2010 wasn't a complete bloodbath.
The "Purists" showed up and Got Out the Vote.
It was the Independents, and the Wishy-Washy "Moderates" that stayed home.

I am PROUD to be THIS kind of "Democratic Party Purist":

[font size=4]
"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."
---President Harry Truman

QED:2010[/font]


[font size=4]Leadership! "The Buck Stops HERE!" NO Excuses![/font]



I'll STAND with this "Purist" too!
[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[FredStembottom]

50. Compromise is inevitable.

But where that compromise finally lands is determined by how hard we fight for the whole enchilada.
Caving before negotiations have even begun, before anyone has even spoken is what we want to avoid.

You get that, don't you?

[pasto76]

65. tell me, an iraq war vet, on veterans day, about fighting for ideals

accusations of 'caving' before the fight actually starts does nothing except undermine the President

[bvar22]

183. When Telling the Truth "undermines the President",

....then we have a REAL problem.

Starting from the Center,
and then Walking it To the Right is NOT a good formula for the advancement of traditional Democratic Party values.

[me b zola]

222. What does social security have to do with the debt?

NOTHING

So why then is it a part of the debt deal?

[argiel1234]

84. Please stop apologizing for republicans

I'm going to repeat it again. Please stop apologizing for republicans.



If you would like to "compromise" with sociopaths and racists who hate women, poor people, minorities, there are plenty of right wing boards that would be more welcoming of your "opinion"

Oh and the third way,from what I have read, is all to sadly real.

Back in the day they were called infiltrators, but nowadays we can't use that term and we have to pretend it doesnt exist.


Frankly, no one is buying it anymore

[Skittles]

123. CORRECT

you don't compromise with rabid dogs!!!

[sibelian]

126. But you do compromise with politicians.

Not all right wing politicians are rabid dogs. There's a good chance that the raving nonsense coming out of them will start to die away now.

If they receive support for modifying their views via gains from a compromise they can live with maybe it will actually be good for *them*. Th whole country could start moving left.

Clearly, there have to be some things which must never be compromised.

[Fumesucker]

128. Let me get this straight...

You move the country left by compromising with far right wing politicians?

In that case then the USA ought to be a socialist paradise by now.

[Skittles]

130. how about repukes giving up something?

America is SICK of conservative goose-stepping

[theaocp]

174. Why do they need to?

Obama already said he'll wash cars and walk dogs for them. Apparently, he's got them right where he wants them.

[Skittles]

210. well I felt that way before the election

I am seriously hoping Obama takes it that we are SICK of the Greedy Old Pig party

[woo me with science]

139. We just won by a landslide so the path is clear, my friends.

Third Way patriots, let us affirm our victory by starting out with a compromise that will please Republicans!

[WinkyDink]

152. Including those on DU. ;-)

[WinkyDink]

151. "Not all right wing politicians are rabid dogs." Now see, there's your mistake.

[bvar22]

184. I'm willing to work with ALL the Republicans...

... who voted FOR the Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare).
All the rest ARE Rabid Dog Extremists.

Please help me out here and list ALL the Republicans that helped Americans get Health Insurance.




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[Marr]

95. You don't compromise if you don't have to.

That's hardly a radical idea.

The Bush Tax Cuts will expire *all on their own* on January 1st, and the natural follow-up (a bill cutting taxes on the middle class), would be a huge political winner.

Anyone urging compromise with Republicans on this point is not on board with the party's *stated* policy goal on taxes. There is zero reason to compromise, unless you actually want some of the items the Republicans are demanding.

[WinkyDink]

149. Get a grip. Did you yell about "COMPROMISE" from 2001--2008?

[WinkyDink]

168. What is the "DU Radical" equivalent of Paul Ryan re: Social Security and Medicare?

One of Rep. Paul Ryan’s many past proposals to remake the federal safety net included a sweeping plan to privatize Social Security and risk the program’s solvency in attempting to save it. He championed the idea as recently as 2010 but pushed it under the rug the following year. Mitt Romney, who recently selected Ryan to be his vice presidential nominee, is steering clear of the plan.

The proposal was in Ryan’s 2010 “Roadmap For America’s Future,” a broad blueprint to remake the federal budget which elevated the little-known congressman into the Republican Party’s visionary. It involved shifting Social Security funds to private retirement accounts as well as reducing benefits and gradually raising the age of eligibility.

Over time, the Congressional Budget Office said, Social Security payouts would “be more uncertain, despite the guarantee, because returns on stocks and corporate bonds are risky.” The plan seeks to protect against market fluctuations by guaranteeing seniors a rate return at least equal to the rate of inflation, and by shifting near-retirees’ money from stocks to government bonds. But funding losses from stock market swings could endanger the solvency of the program.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/paul-ryan-social-security-privatization.php

[Egalitarian Thug]

196. Rhetoric: noun The ability to use language effectively. n/t

[msongs]

10. are the 2012 winners going to sell out again? nt

[rhett o rick]

11. Wont see of them in this thread. nm

[Dragonfli]

12. They are indeed busy churning out propoganda for right wing solutions.

They first want to shut up all progressive thought on the matter

As the President and Members of Congress work to find a balanced solution to the fiscal cliff, it is a huge mistake to draw ideological lines in the sand. We explain why in an open letter to the network of liberal groups calling for a national day of action against a grand bargain.

http://www.thirdway.org/publications/608


Then they shall propose their stealth republican approach to fill the silence they are asking for with their rationalizations of how austerity is needed for "balance"

As the lame duck begins, President Obama will begin his push for a grand bargain to reduce our long-term debt and avert the fiscal cliff. But opponents of a balanced deal are already planting their flags—not just on the Republican side, but also on the left of the Democratic Party.

In this memo we lay out six key facts about a grand bargain

http://www.thirdway.org/publications/609


This group was started with seed money from the Kochs, and is a right wing think tank, so why do they drive most of our parties policies, even when those policies are opposite the campaign rhetoric?

Some more Right wing infiltration position papers:

Collision Course: Why Democrats Must Back Entitlement Reform
http://www.thirdway.org/subjects/145/publications/564

without changes, the inter-generational promise of Social Security—our nation’s most important social insurance program—is a false one.

This idea brief summarizes the trouble with Social Security, and proposes a “Savings-Led” Social Security reform plan that actually increases the program’s progressivity. Our plan makes roughly two dollars in benefit reductions for every one dollar in revenue increases, and achieves solvency while enhancing economic growth.

http://www.thirdway.org/subjects/145/publications/363

[woo me with science]

13. Excellent, excellent post.

Dragonfli, this should be an OP.

It's time to stop arguing with and giving legitimacy to corporate commercials. It's time to expose and label obvious, corporate-backed propaganda for what it is.

[FredStembottom]

52. You're right, Woo.

Like food, I want full labeling on my Think Tanks.

[theaocp]

15. I almost can't read this stuff because

it makes me dream of doing bad things to these people. We can't draw ideological lines in the sand, but they can do so with impunity? I'm so glad my ignore list is still intact. Gag.

[Progressive dog]

49. Great post

It is time that the real Democrats stood up to these scum that have run the country for over 30 years. I wish they would "go Galt" but they are not quite that stupid.

[woo me with science]

54. ^^^^DO NOT MISS THE ABOVE POST^^^^

It is time for the denial about what we face within our own party to end. We already know what Republicans will do. The biggest threat we face is allowing corporate propaganda from within our own party to keep us passive...again.

[bananas]

132. Thanks for emphasizing that post. nt

[woo me with science]

140. Thank you. It's important, and I still think it should be an OP.

Democrats need to realize what we are actually dealing with here. We are steeped in Koch-funded propaganda and need to have no illusions about that.

It's important to keep looking at the reality of our own power and numbers and comparing it with the corporate lies we are fed, by mantra, about being outnumbered and helpless against a sea of mainstream conservatism.

We are told repeatedly that liberal ideas are too "fringe" ever to be possible legislatively, yet when election season comes, the candidates all swerve dramatically to the LEFT to attract voters.

We are admonished that voters are actually conservative, yet polls consistently and dramatically show a preference for liberal positions.

And right on the heels of a landslide victory, the defeat of every congressional and senate candidate who ran on austerity, and the election of some of the most progressive candidates in recent memory, we are lectured about our helplessness and admonished to be passive and compromising. That's pretty telling.

It is propaganda by mantra, designed to keep us passive to corporate assault and convinced that right-wing policy is so much the default for this nation that we should feel victorious when we are given mere token crumbs of liberal policy.

The Third Way and their ilk were *never* a grass roots movement. They are manufactured, Koch-funded, corporate infiltrators into our party. You don't argue with a commercial. You expose it.

[sabrina 1]

187. Wow, the Third Way are already mapping their plant to privatize SS. And I just read today

and I'm hoping it is not true, that Erskine Bowles is being considered to replace Geithner!!

[Zorra]

201. Thank you, Dragonfli. Great post! Facts. Truth. Proof. Links.

But, just like their corporatist conservative GOP counterparts, the Third Way cannot be swayed by fact and truth.

They will repeatedly deny facts and lie shamelessly to achieve their corporatist goals.

My utter contempt for the Third Way is only slightly exceeded by my utter contempt for the GOP.

[jsr]

16. Agreed

[99Forever]

17. The midterm debacle of 2010 was a freakin' pillow fight...

... compared to the massacre they will get in 2014 if they fail US this time around.

No more capitulation to domestic terrorists.

Jez sayin'.

[BlueCaliDem]

29. Yeah . . . that'll show 'em!

Then we can get NOTHING done unless it's the GOP agenda. Great thinking there!

[99Forever]

33. So which way do you want it?

Seems like you'd have it both ways, huh?

Gee, what a fucking surprise.


Not. SSDD.

[BlueCaliDem]

125. So it's your way or the high way?

Purists are so naive.

Gee, what a fucking surprise.

NOT.

[99Forever]

135. Make shit up much?

Only all the fucking time, buddy?

[bvar22]

101. So we pass a Republican Plan to "get something done"?

Great thinking there!

That is NOT why I voted DEMOCRAT.

[BlueCaliDem]

129. COMPROMISE.

Yeah. That's great thinking there.

Just in case it might've slipped your mind, Democrats still didn't win the House. You know? The chamber of Congress where all *legislation originates?

When so-called Democrats (Purists disguised as Democrats, that is) threaten that if they don't get their unicorn this time around, 2010 will be nothing compared to the "massacre" they're threatening in 2014. That's so incredibly dumb because that's shooting yourself in your foot; delivering power BACK to the Republicans who are hellbent on doing exactly what they claim they're afraid of.

At least that particular Purist admits that s/he was part of the reason why Republicans swept the country, taking legislatures, governorships, the House and more seats in the Senate. That purist was part of the reason why in the last election, Blacks were disenfranchised, minorities had to wait hours on end in line in the cold just to cast their vote; why Republicans were able to pass SB1070 laws; why Republican AGs were able to waste money on lawsuits trying to repeal Obamacare, and why egregious and racist voter ID laws became laws. After all that was done to minorities, this purist then has the unmitigated GALL to threaten more of the same shit if s/he doesn't get her/his way. How fucking selfish.

They're not Democrats. They're at best fair-weather Democratic Party voters, but in truth they're wide-eyed Purists who would have rather voted for the likes of Jill Stein or Dennis Kucinich or Nader (but know they won't get anywhere with those candidates) because these people are more in line with their vision for America, and screw anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with them.

Remember that when the Democratic Party gave their ultra-liberal base all the attention back when Mondale ran, the Democratic Party was wiped off the face of the map and we got Reagan. Sorry to burst your bubble, but America isn't aligned with the liberal agenda.

Just as a reminder . . . most minorities, the very people who pushed President Obama and Democrats over the line to victory this last election, are pretty conservative socially and economically, but at least they understand that the president can only do so much without congress, and that's why we came out in droves and supported him.

*Edit for spelling.

[eridani]

133. What utter tripe. America is aligned with NO cuts to Social Security and Medicare

--and strongly aligned with taxing the rich.

[woo me with science]

137. It's impossible to caricature this.

Democrats still didn't win the House blah blah blah blah purist blah blah blah blah purist blah blah purist blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah PURIST blah blah Voters are conservative! Blah blah blahblah PURIST!!!!!

Yes, that "conservatism" was strongly on evidence during this last election cycle. If there is one thing this election taught us, it is that we need more compromise with Republicans!!!!111!!!

Thank you for this absolutely *perfect* distillation of the Third Way mantra.

[BlueCaliDem]

194. Let's be real clear here, Woowoo,

all that blathering blah, blah, blah is coming from YOUR side of the leftwing spectrum. If any one group distilled the progressive agenda of this country, it would be YOURS.

So, did you vote for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson in last election? Perhaps wrote in Nader, just for fun?

[woo me with science]

208. Ah, now the namecalling and dark insinuations of disloyalty

for calling on the party to seize this moment of opportunity and calling out the transparent bids to remain passive and capitulate. Yep, folks. This is textbook Third Way rhetoric.

How to co-opt a party into Third Way Corporate Loyalty
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1489598

Namecalling and insults, and insinuations of disloyalty if you dare to raise a discussion of our Democratic Party's values and how we should proceed. And ESPECIALLY transparent here, when what we are dealing with is a landslide victory for Democrats and tremendous new opportunities for genuine, positive change for America. How threatening this situation seems to be.

[Bluenorthwest]

161. Wow. Name calling and characterizations of 'most minorities' as conservative?

both socially and financialy, meaning simply conservative. If minorities are so conservative why don't they vote that way? Why are they Democratic in huge majorities? Your assertion does not even make sense.
And what do you have to support that assertion, other than the making of it as part of a rhetorical screed that is all about defining other groups? Pulling characterizations of 'minorities' out of thin air is a questionable tactic for many reasons. So I assume you have actual factual basis for your characterizations, and specifics, such as which minorities are mostly conservative relative to other minorities and all. Which minority group do you assert is the most conservative and the least. Expand on this, and give citations.
And my State had record turnout for Democrats in 2010, so don't start with me on that crap. Many States it seems did lose interest. That means the politicians did a poor job engaging them. The fault lies with the elected, not with the electorate, when politicians lose.

[BlueCaliDem]

199. California is a perfect example of how socially conservative minorities are.

Prop h8, banning same-sex marriage, passed.

Prop 34 (repeal of the death penalty) did not.

Prop 187 (prohibiting undocumented people from accessing public schools and health care) passed.

Legalizing marijuana was defeated.

California, the bastion of progressive politics, has a huge minority population, both Black and Latino. I go by the size of the group since I don't have the time or space to list each group's "conservatism" by degrees, independently. I go by the progressive Props that have failed or past in progressive California. And it's clear that Blacks and Latinos and Asians, the minorities, are more socially conservative than Leftists wish they were.

[bvar22]

188. I'm willing to COMPROMISE with Every Republican ...

.. who voted FOR the Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare).

Help me out by listing those Republicans who "compromised" by helping poor Americans get access to Health Insurance.

[BlueCaliDem]

197. What? I thought Purists HATED Obamacare.

Had a change of mind since?

[bvar22]

207. Ducking the issue and hiding?

Why, YES you are!

I didn't say anything about liking or disliking the ACA.
I said I was willing to compromise with every Republican who voted FOR it.

I am getting old, and my memory isn't what it used to be,
so please help me out and list those Republicans who voted FOR helping Americans get access to Health Insurance.
THOSE would be the sane ones who are willing to work with us,
and I think we should work with them.

Thanks!




[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[sabrina 1]

215. I think you got it backwards. Purists love the privatization of everything, HC, Education,

War, SS. Pure Predatory Capitalists. Democrats oppose the privatization of everything.

You need to readjust your labels I think.

[BlueCaliDem]

221. Those are the TeaPublicans. Yeah, they're Purists, too.

But that doesn't negate the fact that we have those single-payer purists in the Democratic Party as well. You know the type? The DK supporters. The FiredogBaggers. The Naderites. Just to name a few. They're the ones who were very vocal about how President Obama betrayed the Liberals by not fighting for something he never campaigned on, remember? They're Purists, too, so my labels are dead on.

[sabrina 1]

224. You mean real Democrats who support real Democrats in Congress, like DK who is hated by the

purist tea baggers, funny you should name such a good Democrat as they so often have btw. Looks like purists on both sides, have a lot in common. They hate DK and all other Progressive Democrats who oppose privatization of public funds, who oppose illegal invasions and the lies told to achieve support for those crimes, who oppose bailing out the Wall Street Criminals while ignoring the middle class.

Purism does cross party lines, you are correct. You can tell a purist by who they target the most. Anyone who challenges their draconian policies. A list of whom you just provided. Odd you would share those opinions with them, seriously.

Kucinich, Grayson, Warren et al and of course any left writers who call them out, some of whom you too appear to despise.

They certainly have to be congratulated, the enemies of the Working Class for their purism, they have never wavered over the decades in their goals. Pure hatred for the working class, for Democratic policies, for anyone who supports the poor, minorities and the working class.

[Liberal_Dog]

18. K & R

Just say no to austerity.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

19. Indeed.

Does recing this make me a bad person?

[Autumn]

22. I recommended it cause I'm a damn good person

and a really liberal good liberal.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

25. The election is over.

Can we now hold our president accountable for his actions?

[BlueCaliDem]

30. Here's an idea . . . how about holding the Republicans accountable?

Or is cutting one's nose to spite one's face a more successful tactic with you?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

37. I believe you already have that covered.

We already know they don't care what we think and will oppose Obama in every situation. Blaming them will be after the fact. We need to demand that Obama do what Clinton did when he let the government be shut down rather than cave to Newt Gingrich.

[BlueCaliDem]

48. Naw. I'm not a fair-weather Democrat.

I criticize, but I voted in 2010 and every other election and held the Republicans to account more than an embattled Democratic president no thanks to disenchanted "liberals" of the Nader-sort.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

60. I didn't vote for Nader.

I don't like Ralph Nader. I voted for Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama and Obama. (Canvased for Obama in Ohio and Pennsylvania in 08.)

Try again.

[BlueCaliDem]

122. Why

did you canvas and vote for a moderate Democrat like President Obama and not someone more of an unrepentant liberal like Jill Stein? Her platform was MUCH more liberal than President Obama's - in fact, she was willing to do everything you hold dear.

No one can ever accuse President Obama of being a liberal. He's not and never has been. He's a pragmatic progressive and Democrat who actually knows that we actually have THREE co-equal branches of government, and to get anything done, compromise is necessary. Everyone knows that. Nader, on the other hand, is an unrepentant liberal such as yourself, so forgive me for the mix-up.

You canvased for President Obama in Ohio and PA in 2008? Okay. If you say so.

[sabrina 1]

90. Yes, that is what we are talking about. Holding Republicans accountable, and we start that

process by rejecting their policies, by not giving them credibility by 'compromising' with them. What good ideas do Republicans have that might make it worth compromising with them?

Give us an example of a compromise. Should we give them cuts in SS for an end to the Bush tax cuts eg? Are you willing to do that? Because that is insane.

I say THEY need to start compromising. I see no history of them compromising on anything, so why are WE talking about compromise?

We got rid of their extremist tea baggers from Congress. Now let Boehner start working on doing what is right for the people, and do what they people want.

And that does NOT include cutting any Social Programs. We have given them way too much already. Now it's their turn.

People are willing to offer them compromises are the ones who refuse to hold them accountable.

[BlueCaliDem]

96. There are still 80+ Teabaggers in the House AFTER the election

so no, you didn't get rid of all of them and President Obama still has to deal with these idiots. 80+ isn't a number to piss at. Social security is OFF the table, as it should be, and cuts in Medicare should only be on the supplier side, never on the earned benefits side.

What I mean by holding Republicans accountable is for people to flood Republican offices with calls, faxes, and snail-mail letters (always better than e-mail), telling them WE HAVE A MANDATE. It's self-defeating to wail about what President Obama should or shouldn't do, dontcha think? Hence my, cutting one's nose to spite one's face metaphor.

[sabrina 1]

105. It's never self defeating to let elected officials know what the people want. I agree re

calling Republicans who are feeling pretty defeated at the moment. And no, this President does not have to deal with extremists in Congress, their own party doesn't want to deal with what's left of them. The rest we'll get rid of in the next election. Reading the reflections by Republicans on their huge losses in this election, it's clear that they too want to be rid of the remaining tea baggers and for the first time ever, they are getting that extremism is never popular, they are blaming people like Grover Norquist, Karl Rove, formerly Gods to them.

Now is the time to NOT compromise on the issues that we are right about.

The President has a lot of power, the Senate has a lot of power. Republicans are now mulling over whether they have been on the wrong track all along. And now is the time to make sure they understand just how wrong they were.

[woo me with science]

158. Perfectly said about our power. In fact, there's your "tell"....just like in poker.

It's comical and tragic, but most of all it's jaw-droppingly educational:

When Democrats achieve landslide victories in an election, are creaming the opposition's policies in the polls, and are being proven correct about policy over and over again in major world events and economic statistics...

and the first, predictable response by the same predictable few, the message taken from all of these events and posted here repeatedly with great solemnity and concern, is that this proves our helplessness and the necessity of compromise, because there are still Republicans in the House..

...well, sometimes the corporate Wonderland of propaganda in which we are so perpetually and subtly immersed rises up and becomes explicit, and Democrats can learn a lot from that.



Sabrina, you are awesome, as always. Thank you for posting here.

[Autumn]

40. Yes we can. After I voted I sent Obama a letter

telling him why I almost didn't vote for him and why he got my vote and what he and the Democratic party need to do if they want to keep my vote. 2010 was bad, but that will be nothing to 2014 if they continue to move to the right. There is a vacuum, waiting to be filled.

[BlueCaliDem]

45. You voted for PRESIDENT Obama?

[Autumn]

51. Yes I did vote for Obama, twice, not that it's any of your business

Last edited Sun Nov 11, 2012, 08:19 PM - Edit history (1)

I like Obama , it's his quest for bipartisanship with fools that I don't like, and a few of his centrist supporters.

[BlueCaliDem]

114. When I brought something up like that "none of your business" crap

I got soundly trounced that if I didn't think it was anybody's business, why bring it up? So, that goes for you, too.

And just so you know, as a reminder, it's PRESIDENT Obama, not Herr Obama or Caesar Obama. Get the gist? Whether you like it or not, he's going to have to work with this Congress for two years before and IF we can remove the remaining TeaBaggers out of the House. That's still not a guarantee.

Until such time, he needs our support because it didn't end with casting your vote so that the griping can begin. Besides, he can get all the griping he needs for a lifetime from the GOP without having the never-satisfied Left doing the deed for them.

By the way, all polls show that the American people, contrary to your assertion, BY FAR want government to work together. They're tired of the gridlock and if he wants to go more to the left - which he won't because he's not Jill Stein - that's exactly what will happen. The majority in our democracy is pragmatic and voted for him, not Stein, and the majority in a democracy won big time.

That said, I'm so sick and tired of wailing against this president from BOTH sides of the political spectrum. Has it ever occurred to you that if you go too far left you'll come full circle and you'll eventually meet the other side's extreme fringe? Think about it.

[Autumn]

118. Obama got my support, those of us on the left will never be satisfied

with him willingly being pulled to the right. As for the none of your business, a persons vote is private. You asked (sarcastically IMO) I answered. Get the gist?

[sabrina 1]

164. Yes, he needs our support to stop Republican policies from being implemented, he needs

our support to end those still in place.

And yes, the American people DO want the Government to work for them, that means, since they tossed them out, AGAIN, the want REPUBLICANS to compromise, NOT Democrats. Democrats are the winners, the losers once again are Republicans. We tossed them out in 2008 also and then began the ridiculous notion of compromising with them which completely failed.

The American people want Republicans to stop their antics and have given Democrats the means to do that. Their lead in the House has been significantly diminished. We now have at least 201 seats, maybe more.

Once they get the idea that they cannot get their right wing policies through the Senate or the WH, they will learn to start compromising.

You seem to be saying we need to forget that we won and give them what they want, once again? Are you serious?

[woo me with science]

141. Hear, hear!

I appreciate and concur with that assessment of you!



Your posts cut through the bullshit, and I thank you. There is zip, zero, nada evidence that the electorate is looking for compromise with Republicans. On the contrary, ALL the evidence suggests that people across this country are sick and tired of being bled and want real change. Hence, the results of this election.

[joshcryer]

36. I rec'd it even though it's a typical caricature call out thread.

A lot of people who understand political realities are not actually represented by the caricature.

[BlueCaliDem]

46. No more or less than UNreccing makes me one. eom

[UnrepentantLiberal]

53. How sad that you can no longer dogpile a thread and unrec it to China.

Yes!

[dchill]

20. K & R

I want nothing to do with anything that has to do with Alan Simpson.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

23. I don't recall the Shrub era repubs promoting bipartisanship

It was 'you're with us, or you're with the terrorists', and the Dems sucked up to all kinds of Bush initiatives. Let the Republicans do the same now. Every time an olive branch is extended to them, they seize and use it as beating-stick.

The country voted, and decided to reject not only the Republican party, but also the conservatism of the right of center Simpson Bowles report.

[great white snark]

24. "We don't hold the House" is propaganda?

How can you be taken seriously when you ask people to reject reality.

[joshcryer]

34. They think the obstructionist Republicans will work with the President.

They are naive. Elections don't matter to them.

[Autumn]

41. We know the republicans won't work with Obama.

Maybe Obama should not be naive and think they will work with him, elections have consequences.

[joshcryer]

42. I agree.

I do not think though that he would've got reelected if he didn't try to work with them. He would've been maligned as an angry black man.

I have been warning people about Obama's bipartisanship ever since he said "everything is on the table."

In 2007.

[Autumn]

58. I don't think so. I have republicans in my family

who voted for him, and my republican Son in law said Obama should have told Boner he would kick his ass instead of saying he would wash his car and then he could go run over mitch's dog, and then he would get the deal. People see what the pukes have been doing.

[theaocp]

70. There's so much conciliation from the WH

I had forgotten about Obama saying he'd wash cars and walk dogs for the Republicans. Thanks for the reminder. Way to negotiate, sir. Way to negotiate. I'm off to vomit.

[joshcryer]

99. If your personal experience reflected the reality Obama would've got back the House.

Obama would've got 400+ electoral votes, etc.

It's not how it works out there in the real world.

The real world Republicans want to bring Obama down.

And the country as well.

As this thing plays out just watch what they do.

[woo me with science]

142. I can't tell you how many times

Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:05 PM - Edit history (1)

I have had variations of this conversation, even in the GROCERY STORE. I was sighing at the prices for toilet paper, and a woman rolling her cart by me stopped and launched into a tirade of frustration about how we are cheated all day long, how the country is getting worse that way, and how none of the politicians will do anything about it.

No, the hunger out in the country isn't for more compromise. People are angry and poor, and sick and tired of being sold out.

[sabrina 1]

170. Exactly, the people want fighters, not compromisers. Same experience here, even with

Republicans, and I know moderate Repubs who refused to vote for Romney because they do not want to see SS and Medicare and other Social Programs destroyed. Some of them voted for third party this time. THAT is why Romney lost.

[sabrina 1]

217. It's propaganda to continue to use excuses every time we win. Republicans lost eight seats in the

House, diminishing their power to a much narrower margin. They lost two seats in the Senate and they lost the WH. And still we are told 'we have to compromise'. BS, that is pure BS. If Republicans are so powerful even after devastating losses such as they suffered in 2008 and again this year, then why bother with elections at all? What was it all about?

We won, we hold the power and the cards. They get to compromise, that is how it works, the 'LOSERS' are the ones to compromise, NOT the winners yet we still have this insane meme going around, no matter how much we win, that it is always Democrats who must compromise.

No one is buying this anymore.

[HereSince1628]

27. I suspect that this is about big corporation's just don't want to compete with governments

when it comes to investor money.

[joshcryer]

31. Invoke Section 4 of the 14th Amendment.

Start printing platinum coins.

No substantiative legislation is getting passed under this Congress.

[BlueCaliDem]

32. And the Obama and Democratic Party bashing begins . . .

[99Forever]

35. You know how that can be headed off?

Do ya? Or do you need to be told again for the millionth time?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

39. And the liberal bashing begins...

[bluestate10]

56. Yes. Just like the lead up to 2010. I favor repeal of the Bush tax cuts and taking the country

over the fiscal cliff if. But I also don't feel that democrats should be drawing each other's blood as ideas about how to deal with republicans are evaluated. I want to see the people that are crying third way and blue dogs take some responsibly for us having to deal with a republican House due to them being pissed off that they didn't get repeal of DADT, Single Payer, Immigration Reform, and flaming liberal Supreme Court appointees ALL done during the first year of Obama's term, to hell with the fact that the President was dealing with the worst economic environment since the Great Depression.

[BlueCaliDem]

94. I agree wholeheartedly. But they don't take responsibility

and continue with this bee ess, seemingly ignorant about the facts you've pointed out and that we need Congress to pass anything lasting. Jeezus, I thought we were over this, but it seems it's rearing its ugly head from hiding once again thereby telling me that a black man really does need to work three times as hard as a white man in order to get some respect.

[joshcryer]

100. They remain gleeful that we didn't get the House back.

Why? Because it fuels their narrative.

And the Republicans are eating it the fuck up.

It worked for them in 2010 it will work again for them in 2014.

We're hopeless.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Alas, the Democratic Party is now run by 3rd Way "moderates" and the bashing is deserved.

"A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine

[one_voice]

80. Apparently some of your...

squad feel I should address you here so I will. I did start a thread in meta...http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240164801

I take exception to the fact you feel that moderates should be bashed. Yes, I know you qualified it as '3rd way moderates'. Some of your defenders seem to think you meant fake moderates, I think you meant moderates in general.

I'm moderate on some things very liberal on others, which is why I take exception to what you said.

If you'd said neo-liberals that would have been a better and more apt description, however moderates is much to broad a stroke quotes or not.

I'm quite sure if someone had written that those 'fringe liberals' deserve a bashing, there would have been an uproar. Rightfully so.

My 5 cents.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

113. Squad?

Apparently some of your squad feel I should address you here so I will.

[one_voice]

116. What?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

124. Squad?

[one_voice]

156. And? What?

[Telly Savalas]

83. Then nominate progressives and win primaries in 2014 House and Senate races

If progressives have the numbers as is so frequently claimed here, it shouldn't be so hard.

If the Democratic electorate is fickle enough that Establishment money can buy 30 second ads that convince them to vote against the progressive candidates, then it's time to revisit the assumption that there are latent progressives forces in the population just waiting to be manifested by the right candidate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. I've never claimed that "progressives have the numbers".

Being a part of a majority doesn't make what the majority stands for, or buys into, right.

[woo me with science]

154. This response ignores political reality and the restructuring of our elections process.

It is getting harder and harder, and in some places it is virtually impossible, to run for national office without deep corporate pockets backing you. The amount of money needed to compete in national elections now is obscene, and unless a candidate is independently wealthy like Perot or backed by corporate interests, it probably isn't going to happen. Big money donors select candidates with their checkbooks, and they WILL use those deep pockets to either co-opt or target with barrages of expensive negative advertising any upstart who tries to take on their choice. That leaves third parties for those who wish to buck the system, but then you have the elections commission, which has been taken over by the two major parties, severely limiting access to debates, so the message cannot get out. Most Democrats don't realize the extent to which limiting third party access to debates hurts not only the third party candidates, but OUR OWN candidates, because it keeps them from being pressured to respond to voters rather than their big-money donors. If the only other guy running is corporate, too, there is no reason to appeal to voters' interests, because those voters have nowhere else to go.

It's very naive to say 'just run liberal candidates." We have a structural and a systemic problem that has corrupted the very foundation of the democratic process.

[Egalitarian Thug]

107. Hear, hear! Excellent quote, one of my favorites.

A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Indeed.

[sabrina 1]

76. And the Liberal bashing continues! Although I think it is diminishing as more and more

people realize, liberals got it right almost every time. Even Republicans are now reflecting on whether or not Liberals weren't right after all, I saw today. Things are changing. Third Way/Right Wing policies are not popular anywhere.

Obama will go down in history as one of the great Presidents if he refuses to compromise Democratic principles with the extremist party that was rejected even by its own base in the end.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

86. Brace yourself, for if Obama agrees to cuts/slashes to SS and Medicare...

it's going to get ugly beyond your wildest dreams. Nightmares. Whatever.

right backatcha.

[BlueCaliDem]

115. Yeah.

Whatever.

[Le Taz Hot]

38. K & R

There IS a mandate and that mandate is not smarmy, milquetoast, third-way politics. The election of Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Duckworth, Raul Ruiz and LOTS of other REAL PROGRESSIVES this time around should give them a clue. Let's see if they dare buck their corporate masters this time. Even if just a little.

[JoeyT]

43. I think it's going to be much less likely now.

I don't see Warren or Grayson standing for it.

[freshwest]

47. SCREW THE DEFICIT. A budget is a moral document, and there are more than one kind of debt.

Austerity in the honest context, would tax the super rich at 90%. Imposing it on the poor and unable is immoral. So is debt that produces nothing but more money and no tangible benefit, such as housing, food and a healthy world.

Many of us have been calling for a world-wide Jubilee to maintain social equality for forty years, this is not at all a new idea and it is the responsibility of the government. The Founding Fathers installed the bankruptcy laws to protect us. In the seventies we had free or almost free higher education, protection for homeowners, labor, immigrants, women, all of it.

Thirty years of misrule by the GOP took virtually all of the protection from predatory forces in the private sector and religious zealots that allowed people more freedom in their lives. Most of these ideas are not at all new and the government has to free itself of the regresssive neanderthals that screwed up our progressive system on those matters, and more.

It's not name calling and fingerpointing at Democrats that is going to change this, more activism in the election process is needed.

[Autumn]

78. What a wonderful post. I am so thankful for this thread as

there are so many wonderful points made in it. Your post should be a stand alone OP. Thank you.

[freshwest]

82. I paragraphed the rant but don't expect positive response, thanks for yours.

[woo me with science]

155. Superlative post. Yes, these are MORAL choices.

The middle class and the poor have been systematically looted and stripped of our protections over the past 30 years, by the party that advertises itself as the religious choice. It is inexcusable that morality is so inexplicably absent from these debates about policy.

I agree with Autumn that you should make this an OP.

[The Wizard]

55. The biggest

contributor to the deficit is military waste. Unfortunately, certain legislators are fattening Cayman Islands accounts with defense contractor bribe money. Social Security has nothing to do with the deficit. They just want to use the funds to create the illusion of some kind of fiscal responsibility.
Remember, Social Security money circulates back into the economy as do veterans benefits. This translates into jobs. Money sent to off shore tax havens does nothing but feather the nests of the most corrupt element of the country.

[xchrom]

59. Du rec. Nt

[ReRe]

61. Hear Hear!!!

I absolutely, wholeheartedly, from head-to-toe and all parts in between, seen and unseen, REJECT THIS NONSENSICAL TALK OF A GRAND BARGAIN/THIRD WAY. As John Boenher says, "The American People have spoken". And they have spoken by giving President Barack Obama what is seen in these times as a landslide, ergo Mandate, ergo political capital. Majority rules... we all remember what GW said after the 2004 election, now don't we? He said something like "I have political capital now, and I'm going to spend it." I say turn off the TV for now, and start calling your Reps and Sens (if you have some that will listen to you...I don't), and follow those up with a call to the WH.

[emulatorloo]

62. I see you have found another conspiracy theory.

To sow division here.

There are a handful of third way Dems here if that many.

The majority of DU'ers want rich to pay more taxes and for social security and Medicare and Medicade to be protected.

You are correct that Republicans don't hold any cards.

Stop trying to divide DU.

We do not need pot stirring here from Republican trolls pretending to be progressives or from wild eyed DU conspiracy theorists.

[sabrina 1]

71. You can't 'sew division' when you are speaking for the majority!

And you're right about the Republican trolls part. We don't need anti-Social Security, Pro-War, anti-Education, pro-Privatization right wing trolls in our party or on a Democratic site.

This is an excellent OP.

[emulatorloo]

203. He claims hoards of DU members are "third way." And that is BULL-FUCKING-SHIt

Find me the DU'ers advocating war, or destroying social security.

THEY DO NOT EXIST.


The MAJORITy of DU members including me want Democrats to protect the safety net.

Which DU'ers do you believe are
Woo is creating Strawman DU'ers who do not exist.

Step back and recognize it for what it is. A Strawman argument designed to sow division at DU. Typical tactics of this poster.

[progressoid]

213. Speaking of strawmen...

Maybe I missed it, but where are the claims of "hoards of DU members are third way"?
Or claims of DUers wanting to "destroy social security"?
Or "DUers advocating war"?


However, from a more dispassionate view, we know there are leadership and pundit Democrats that are third way. And leadership and pundit Democrats that won't rule out cuts to Social Security. And leadership and pundit Democrats that support this extended war. Those are the Democrats I will be wrangling with. And if DUers defend these actions, they will likely get into impassioned response from those who do NOT want our party and nation to continue down it's corporate/military path.

[Bobbie Jo]

209. Um....

http://grammarist.com/usage/sew-sow/

[Puglover]

77. Seems to me inferring that a long time DUer is a troll

or calling them a wild eyed DU conspriracy theorist simply because you don't agree with them is a dandy way of sowing division.

And who is this "we" you speak of? Because you sure as hell aren't speaking for me.

[emulatorloo]

202. Q:Where are the hoards of third way DU members OP claims exists?

A: in his mind.

OP is typical divisive bullshit. This is what original poster does.

[Puglover]

211. Well then respectfully you're letting yourself be divided.

I don't necessarily agree with every point the OP makes. However if I see a "Grand Bargain" that impacts SS or medicare (I don't think I will see it, I hope I won't) I will be totally against it. And if people promote it here I will disagree. I just don't see different opinions as being divisive. But name calling and accusations don't help at all.

[emulatorloo]

219. There is not going to be a Grand Bargain. And every DUer wants the safety net preserved.

There aren't any DU'ers promoting destroying the safety net, in spite of OP's insistence that there are.

[Puglover]

223. I hope you're right.

And it's actually silly to argue hypotheticals. But should one come up, it will be interesting to see how DU reacts.

[progressoid]

106. Woo is neither a Republican troll nor a conspiracy theorist. eom

[emulatorloo]

204. Then why is he lying about DU membership?

Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:12 PM - Edit history (2)

The majority of DU'ers want the same things. There are not hoards of Third way DU'ers here. That is made up bullshit or fantasyland.

Woo is creating Strawman DU'ers to divide DU. Or he really believes it, in which case he is a conspiracy theorist. Because they don't exist.

Prior to that he was working hard to project Romney/Ryan's policies onto Obama/Biden.

I have no idea what motivates him to do these things.

[Le Taz Hot]

144. You want to run that

". . . trying to divide DU" thing by me again? This was posted the DAY AFTER the election.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021749729

[Solly Mack]

67. K&R

[UnrepentantLiberal]

68. They started a Meta thread in your honor.

Last edited Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:23 PM - Edit history (1)

[Puglover]

72. That just cracks me up.

Won't engage in this thread but runs to meta about it.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

74. Yep.

Look! Bad! Bad!

[one_voice]

81. don't hurt yourself cracking up...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1793302

[ohiosmith]

195. This post was alerted on. The jury voted 6/0 to let it stand.

At Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:46 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

They started a Meta thread in your honor.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1792759

REASON FOR ALERT:

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ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Shit stirrer extraordinaire. Enough already.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:53 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Stop being so sensitive.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The whole thread is "shit stirring," especially the OP. Get a life, use the Trash Thread button instead of the Alert button. Leave it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Holy crap! Leave it!
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

206. Gee, I wonder who did that?

[liberal_at_heart]

69. It's no propaganda that this administration is not that good at negotiations

He has not done all that spectacular at negotiations with bank reform or healthcare so I don't have high expectations for this one, but we will see.

[sabrina 1]

73. Excellent post, thank you. No, we did not vote for 'compromise' with the most extreme

and consistently wrong on policies Political Party in living memory. Nor do a majority of Americans as can be seen by this election.

The most extreme Tea Baggers were shown the door. Blue Dogs too are mostly gone.

Instead we got some Progressive Dems, (we got one right here in my district and she knows where stand on this Grand Bargain nonsense).

Thanks for always fighting for Democratic Values!

[RepublicansRZombies]

75. Imagine how the Republicans would behave with this kind of landslide

The Republican party needs to be shamed for their greed, hypocrisy and lies.

They insist on acting like three year olds, we need to treat them like three year olds and right now they desperately need a time out.

They need to sit in the corner and think about what they have done.

We need to ignore their whining and crying and work to do what is right for the country.

And we need to ignore the corporate media too.

They have been proved to be liars and incompetents, unAmerican propaganda artists.

They need to be shamed as well.

DUers would do well to stop posting their distraction stories, and start focusing on what we need to do to fix the problems in this nation.

[me b zola]

79. K&R

[Spitfire of ATJ]

87. I'll tell you what Americans want....

They want to have a Jobs Bill.

They want taxes increased on the rich and the money to be raised going into public works projects.

Republicans are dead set against that.

Not only for what it will cost the rich but because they are in a panic that the government can be seen as actually being something other than pure evil by the general public. If people actually see friends and family getting a good paying job to modernize the city and see real results popping up all over town they will reject Republican claims that the government has never created a single job.

Republicans are screaming about the debt.

That argument might have worked 50 years ago when most people didn't own credit cards and took pride in not owing anything to anyone but these days Americans don't feel shame at being in debt to a rich bank. They eagerly declare bankruptcy on rich banks and they've seen rich banks steal homes. There is zero sympathy for rich banks and people actually take pride in getting some of that money back.

There is no question that Americans want the wealth that went to the top come back to them.

[Autumn]

93. Damn, another perfect post.

This thread is a gold mine.

[Egalitarian Thug]

88. Well, you certainly brought the whining DINOs out with this one.

Way to go!

[LWolf]

89. I've always rejected it,

which, according to some, makes me a bad Democrat.

[amborin]

91. K&R

[forestpath]

97. I just don't understand why any real Democrat wouldn't reject it....

and yes, I do believe that unqualified support for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid should be a requirement in order to call oneself a Democrat.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

117. Purist!

Yep. No cuts, slashes, walking of dogs or washing of cars...

[forestpath]

193. Purist and proud!

[Stinky The Clown]

98. DURec

[PufPuf23]

102. rk

[TheKentuckian]

103. Fuckin' A!

[DirkGently]

104. KNR

[amborin]

108. 3rd way "drums beating to privatize social security:

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/11/drums-beating-to-privatize-social-security.html

[ProSense]

111. Isn't it great

that President Obama was re-elected?

A mandate on ending tax cuts for the rich
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021792535

Patty Murray: If GOP Refuses All Tax Hikes, We’ll Let Them Go Up And Start Over
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021791837

Looking good!

[Zorra]

112. + 1,000,000,000. They are on full force attack with their bullshit propaganda right now.

You rock. woo!

[amborin]

119. ps: an article suggests 3d way Dems are losing Wall St; it is turning against them; so they may

be all the more desperate to redeem themselves in Wall Street's eyes, to save the 'new democrat', 'third way' agenda .

[whirlygigspin]

120. ...if only we had a super majority, then we wouldn't have to capitulate so early on...

Long Live the forces of Stagnation!

[laundry_queen]

127. Agree with everything. I think it says something

that President Obama had to campaign to the left of his policies to win. It says a lot about what Americans want. Time for Obama to follow through this time.

[Lifelong Protester]

136. Excellent post and thank you

I do believe we need to move forward on this, and let the wave of voter sentiment carry us towards an end that will NOT, as you say, continue to loot the middle class, seniors, and the poor.

[antigop]

143. also reject the candidate(s) they are trying to shove down our throats for 2016 n/t

[closeupready]

146. AMEN to you, science! K&R

[Nye Bevan]

147. Nobody forced the people to vote for a Republican House of Representatives.

Surely when the electorate chooses a Democratic President and a Republican House, they are kind of asking for bipartisanship?

[Zorra]

159. No. ^^This^^ No.

[sabrina 1]

173. The people threw out at least 8 Republicans. We have now seriously diminished their

numbers in Congress. Grayson won by an overwhelming majority eg, vastly different from the last race he was in. And he's worth ten Republicans any day.

And we did this despite the obscene amount of money they poured into those races. So the people did what they could this time and we'll finish the job in the next election, but ONLY if the people see Democrats fight for Democratic policies. Otherwise we will have another 2010.

We also gained in the Senate. We WON, they LOST, in Congress, in the Senate and the WH.

But Democrats seem uncomfortable with winning and as soon as they do they always begin talking about playing nice with Republicans. As a result we get what we got from them for the past several years, DISRESPECT.

People like them do not respect 'nice', they see it as weakness and they use it. If the last several years have not taught Democrats anything about Republicans, then there is no hope for them at all.

[Nye Bevan]

176. OK, that's all wonderful. But it's still a Republican controlled House.

So there are two choices:

1. Tell the Republican House to go to hell, do nothing for two years, and hope to get a Democratic House elected in 2014.

2. Engage in bipartisanship with the Republicans to get stuff done.

It seems that most DUers posting in this thread would pick option 1.

[sabrina 1]

182. Yes, option one if it means saving SS, Medicare, ending any remaining Bush policies

Those policies have long lasting effects on the American people. Two years is not too long to fight for them. It took a long time to put them in place.

And the side effect of choosing Option One in our favor is that Republicans will be exposed for what they are, a pro Corporate anti-People extremist party. And it's more than likely that they too are thinking of 2014 and once they realize that Democrats are going to fight them for the good of the people, they will compromise.

I've been reading their post election reflections on why they lost, and many of them are finally coming to the conclusion that their views are not popular with the American people.

They are in a very weak position right now and they know it. All their money did not help them win. They are trashing people like Rove and Norquist. We don't even have to do it anymore.

But those policies are worth waiting them out for two years. Two years goes by pretty fast, but those relying on SS and Medicare for their very existence will still be here two years from now and if Dems compromise on any of those policies, those compromises will have decades of consequences to the most vulnerable Americans. And it's likely we will lose in 2014 as a result.

[bvar22]

190. I pick Option One,

...and then STRONGLY encourage our Democratic Party Leadership to
take their case TO the American People by naming names,
publishing the names and photos in newspapers across the country,
DEMANDING time in the Media,
Bus & Train Tours across America,
and explaining in simple to understand language WHY there is gridlock in Washington.

America gave Obama & the Democrats a MANDATE.
As we learned from 2008,
A Mandatre unused
IS a Mandate Wasted.


[font size=5]Obama's Army, Jan. 21, 2009[/font]

[font size=5]"Oh, What could have been."[/font]


[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone[/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[bvar22]

226. If you want a Democrat Controlled House, try THIS for a change:

"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."
---President Harry TrumanQED:2010[/font]


[font size=4]Leadership! "The Buck Stops HERE!" NO Excuses![/font]




[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[caveat_imperator]

179. I thought the rethug gerrymandering kinda DID force the people to vote for a rethug House of Reps.

[woo me with science]

192. Yes, it absolutely did. These arguments...

that all people have to do is support liberal candidates, show a remarkable naivete about how our electoral process has been purchased and deliberately corrupted over the past 30 years.

The corporate machine has been systematically making changes in our electoral system for decades now. From districting, to the debates process and rules, to balloting and voting machines, to how campaigns are financed, the system has been and is in the process of being deliberately restructured to favor corporate-approved candidates and lock out serious challengers.

We have a serious structural and systemic problem that has everything to do with corporate infiltration and takeover of our elections process, and not a thing to do with voters.

[joshcryer]

218. +1, they did historical levels of gerrymandering. We actually got more votes.

Therefore the gerrymandering worked.

If it was an equitable system we should have the majority of seats by winning the majority of votes.

Of course, apportionment is actually fucked up, to a point where some districts have a representative representing 100k people while others have districts where a representative represents 1 million!

[WinkyDink]

148. I pine for the days when Democrats were Democrats, and told Republicans to go to Hell! No, this is

NOT sarcasm.

[Nye Bevan]

150. That may make you feel good, but given a Republican House of Representatives,

what would it really achieve?

[WinkyDink]

153. I'm a Democrat. Perhaps that is the difference between us?

[Nye Bevan]

172. OK, gotcha. Sure.

[sabrina 1]

227. A Republican House that is now minus 8 seats they once held

The people have spoken, making it much easier now for the Dem Leadership to smack down any lies, such as the one Boehner has been telling about SS, right now.

[woo me with science]

162. I just wanna say,

I love you, everyone who posted passionately for the people and against the corporate machine in this thread.



There's a lot of noise out there trying to delude us into believing that Democrats are gone, or helpless, or that we have changed into something none of us would recognize. None of it is reality.

We're still out here, all across the country, and we're still strong and passionate and principled and hungry for REAL representation, same as we always were. We just need to remember our power, and use it.

[aandegoons]

166. Well said.

There are many out there that want us to believe Democrats lose when they win and lose big when they lose.

[coalition_unwilling]

178. Emphatic K&R - n/t

[mwooldri]

180. Na, there's a 4th way.

Swing to the left. Stay there. There needs to be an anti-Tea Party hardcore in the Democratic Party which is diametrically opposed to the Tea Party, just because they support something.

Sadly, there is no such thing as a hard left Democratic core. It's all mushy.

A good ol' fashioned swing to the left IMO will force the Tea Partiers' hand. I distinctly remembering a former President stating that after an election that he had earned political capital, and that he intends to spend it. President Obama has that political capital. I think he needs to spend it to get the right thing going. Even if it means driving off the so-called fiscal cliff and blame it entirely on House Republicans, especially when the Senate has a proposal ready to go.

[LaydeeBug]

185. kick. nt

[nolabels]

198. Sorry, but Obama already compromised

And got what he wanted. He carries this thing that seems just like a BIG giant hatchet, really though, it's just a little ink pen. Thank goodness somebody knows how to play cards

[AntiFascist]

214. K&R...

significantly cutting the military budget can solve most of the financial problems.

[Zorra]

228. kick