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Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:42 AM

Letís Not Make a Deal - By PAUL KRUGMAN

So what should he do? Just say no, and go over the cliff if necessary.

Itís worth pointing out that the fiscal cliff isnít really a cliff. Itís not like the debt-ceiling confrontation, where terrible things might well have happened right away if the deadline had been missed. This time, nothing very bad will happen to the economy if agreement isnít reached until a few weeks or even a few months into 2013. So thereís time to bargain.

.................

Meanwhile, the president is in a far stronger position than in previous confrontations. I donít place much stock in talk of ďmandates,Ē but Mr. Obama did win re-election with a populist campaign, so he can plausibly claim that Republicans are defying the will of the American people. And he just won his big election and is, therefore, far better placed than before to weather any political blowback from economic troubles ó especially when it would be so obvious that these troubles were being deliberately inflicted by the G.O.P. in a last-ditch attempt to defend the privileges of the 1 percent.

Most of all, standing up to hostage-taking is the right thing to do for the health of Americaís political system.

So stand your ground, Mr. President, and donít give in to threats. No deal is better than a bad deal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/09/opinion/krugman-lets-not-make-a-deal.html?_r=0

47 replies, 4413 views

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Arrow 47 replies Author Time Post
Reply Letís Not Make a Deal - By PAUL KRUGMAN (Original post)
kpete Nov 2012 OP
hfojvt Nov 2012 #1
GoCubsGo Nov 2012 #2
Lasher Nov 2012 #6
jollyreaper2112 Nov 2012 #11
hfojvt Nov 2012 #13
Lasher Nov 2012 #24
hfojvt Nov 2012 #35
Lasher Nov 2012 #40
lefthandedskyhook Nov 2012 #19
99Forever Nov 2012 #3
Anthony McCarthy Nov 2012 #4
Jim__ Nov 2012 #5
hfojvt Nov 2012 #8
hfojvt Nov 2012 #7
redqueen Nov 2012 #9
lark Nov 2012 #21
redqueen Nov 2012 #23
treestar Nov 2012 #28
notundecided Nov 2012 #30
hfojvt Nov 2012 #41
Xyzse Nov 2012 #10
hfojvt Nov 2012 #14
Xyzse Nov 2012 #16
Oilwellian Nov 2012 #32
midnight Nov 2012 #12
Kablooie Nov 2012 #15
hfojvt Nov 2012 #17
Kablooie Nov 2012 #18
Romulox Nov 2012 #20
lark Nov 2012 #22
grahamhgreen Nov 2012 #25
treestar Nov 2012 #27
grahamhgreen Nov 2012 #37
treestar Nov 2012 #39
grahamhgreen Nov 2012 #42
treestar Nov 2012 #26
Jeff In Milwaukee Nov 2012 #29
hfojvt Nov 2012 #31
Jeff In Milwaukee Nov 2012 #46
hfojvt Nov 2012 #47
reformist2 Nov 2012 #33
eqfan592 Nov 2012 #34
DearHeart Nov 2012 #36
Junkdrawer Nov 2012 #38
hfojvt Nov 2012 #44
Junkdrawer Nov 2012 #45
Filibuster Harry Nov 2012 #43

Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:45 AM

1. as an economics major, I second Mr. Krugman's motion

A-frigging-men!!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:45 AM

2. AMEN!!!

And, thank you for pointing out that it isn't a "cliff", Mr. Krugman. I hope the President will consider including you in his cabinet for his next term.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:59 AM

6. There is no chance Obama will include Krugman in his cabinet.

Krugman is a Keynesian and Obama is a Neoliberal.

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Response to Lasher (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:26 AM

11. This is my fear

Obama's agenda ain't the same as the rest of us. He wanted to be elected instead of Romney. We all agreed on that. But we wanted him to win to make change. I fear it's a vanity project.

I voted for him. I'm not expecting challenge and transformation at this point, I mainly wanted to stick it to the Republicans.

If Obama does do the stuff we're all wanting, radical change, kicking teeth down throats, I will cook that crow up myself and enjoy every bite.

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Response to Lasher (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:41 AM

13. and old liberals don't have enough clout to make it happen either

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:35 PM

24. Old liberals don't have a viable option right now.

Looking back at the 2008 Democratic primary, the economic policies of Obama and Hillary are almost identical. But who knows, maybe a genuine New Deal Democrat will someday emerge. This is possible, considering public reaction to a potential 'grand bargain' that I dread. And such a candidate would surely draw votes from Republican seniors.

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Response to Lasher (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 02:12 PM

35. no, in 2008 Obama was supposed to be non-DLC

that's why The Nation, Ted Kennedy and Democracy For America (Howard Dean's group) endorsed him along with much, if not quite all, of the liberal blogosphere. We wanted an alternative to Clinton, and we thought we had one http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/146

After he got elected though, he quickly showed us to be gullible fools.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:38 PM

40. Too bad the New Deal coalition fell apart in the sixties

It, or something like it, is badly needed.

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Response to Lasher (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:20 PM

19. Is that difference insurmountable?

Robert Reich was Secretary of Labor in the Clinton cabinet while treasury was headed by the now significantly discredited Rubin. Stranger things have happened in the past, but like you I am not too optimistic about Obama's economic appointments.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:46 AM

3. Not just yes, but ...

... HELL YES!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:50 AM

4. Everything Paul Krugman said

 

This is Obama's chance to lay to rest those fears his performance at the first debate revived, that he had no political courage. If he doesn't understand that's why that first debate was so damaging, almost blowing his campaign, then he should be told in the strongest possible terms.

He owes his supporters for saving his presidency and the possibility of him making appointments to the courts.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:57 AM

5. I agree. Obama needs to stand his ground - take the case to the American people. - n/t

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Response to Jim__ (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:03 AM

8. let my evil twin sing the theme song

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:00 AM

7. okay, actually I thirded it

I lost to the Cubs.

and Hissyspit already posted this article to about 75 recs, although I like this title.

Let's say it loud and say it again and again and hope somebody in the Obama administration will listen.

Even though I am expecting to be slapped in the face by the guy I just voted for.

Isn't democracy great?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:20 AM

9. We all need to back him up. At least weekly calls to congresscritters reminding them of the mandate.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:24 PM

21. Disagree, we need to push him to stand up for us

Obama is WAY too concerned with bipartisanship and not enough concerned about the middle class. He will bargain away our SS and Medicare to get tax increases - he's already tried this and we are just lucky the Repugs wouldn't take winning if it meant agreeing with the president - even when he gave them virtually EVERYTHING they ever wanted. Obama can destroy the Democratic party with his "let's just be friends" nonsense. We have to stand up and fight his MOR tendencies when the path has veered sharply right. Glad we have more progressives in the Senate who will hopefully squash this nonsense if Obama bends over again like he did last time.

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Response to lark (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:34 PM

23. Pushing congress is the best course of action IMO. nt

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Response to lark (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:43 PM

28. Push the congress to "stand up for us" too

They are our representatives also.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:50 PM

30. Let's Occupy Congress by Telephone!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:43 PM

41. Weekly? To heck with that.

Call Congress Right Fucking Now!!!

Actually I think I may call een my Republican Congresswoman and ask her "Is she prepared to vote to increase taxes on those making less than $250,000 a year?"

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:21 AM

10. This was the strategy in 2010 that I wanted.

So, yes, please don't allow them to put the Tax Cut hostage.
Just let it expire and formulate a better tax cut structure.

I am tired of hearing about the "Bush Tax Cut".

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Response to Xyzse (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:02 AM

14. my fear is that it will not happen this time either

I am bracing myself for another comprosurrender.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:23 AM

16. I guess...

Then again, even though I'd be disappointed if that is the case, my primary concern in this election cycle was the Supreme Court. I didn't want the possibility of Romney getting a chance to pick the judges.

So, as a whole, I am taking it easy.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 01:38 PM

32. We're better off if the Grand Bargain doesn't happen

Why would Obama need to compromise with Republicans when the Bush tax breaks will end automatically? The "fiscal cliff" will bring us $1 trillion in cuts...the Grand Bargain will bring us $3 trillion in cuts. How could THAT POSSIBLY be to our advantage? Austerity hasn't worked in Europe, and it damn well won't work here. Obama is dying to raise the eligibility age for Medicare to 67. That automatically raises the retirement age as well. If Dems vote this through, I'm through with the party.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:27 AM

12. House Speaker John Boehner Discusses Working With President Obama

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:13 AM

15. The voters stood up against the right and gave Obama his chance.

Now he has to continue what they started and keep the GOP on the defensive.

If they get any whiff of power it will be like blood to sharks and they will start the attack frenzy all over again.




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Response to Kablooie (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:06 PM

17. well voters could have stood up more and defeated some of those putzes

why the heck would they vote for Obama for President and also Ryan for Congress? That's like hitting the gas and the emergency brake at the same time.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:16 PM

18. Sounds like normal driving practice for the right wing to me.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:23 PM

20. Obama is a born deal-maker. It's in his blood. Krugman's pleading will fall on deaf ears. nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:28 PM

22. I like candidate Obama 10000 times more than president Obama

As president he was a huge disappointment a lot of the time, when he would totally cave to the right wing and the demands of the 1%. He needs to stand up for the 99%. I am really concerned about him stating he and Romney had no differences on SSI. If that's true, every single Democrat in congress needs to stand up against this destructive policy and make sure nothing passes. Be obstructionist for the working class instead of the 1% for a change.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:38 PM

25. Obama don't get it. R's are "right-wing authoritarian" and want to be told what to do...

"Right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) is a personality and ideological variable studied in political, social, and personality psychology. Right-wing authoritarians are people who have a high degree of willingness to submit to authorities they perceive as established and legitimate, who adhere to societal conventions and norms, and who are hostile and punitive in their attitudes towards people who don't adhere to them. They value uniformity and are in favour of using group authority, including coercion, to achieve it." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism

They will submit to his will if he comes across as the authority figure. Just like training an unruly dog - the dog will do what tell him if he sees you as the alpha male of the pack.

"Episodes of "Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan" feature guestsí problem dogs...... Millan offers suggestions on how the owners can become their pet's "pack leader," consistent with the theory that dogs are pack animals. He uses behavior modification techniques and the philosophy that exercise, discipline, and affection are required "in that order" for dogs to be healthy and balanced." - wiki

Kinda like that there, in fact, the R's WANT to be disciplined!!!

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:40 PM

27. If only

The group we're dealing with here feels entitled to be in charge.

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Response to treestar (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 02:55 PM

37. They are bullies kind of like terrorists - you don't negotiate with them, you stand up to them.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:19 PM

39. I'd kind of like to see this happen at least once

So that the consequences like this can be proven.

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Response to treestar (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:51 PM

42. Check out Altmeyers book (free d/l)

"Right-wing authoritarianism is defined by three attitudinal and behavioral clusters which correlate together:

Authoritarian submission ó a high degree of submissiveness to the authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in the society in which one lives"

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:39 PM

26. I think he could this time let the tax cuts expire

He does not have to worry about re-election now and can do more grandstanding.

Then the debt can be paid down and the ceiling may not have to be lifted, or Republican refusal to lift it will look like they are posturing again.

They may refuse to fund something for Obamacare, too.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 12:44 PM

29. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities makes the same point

The sooner policymakers enact legislation to put the budget on a sustainable long-term path without threatening the vulnerable economic recovery, the better. But, as they prepare for an almost certain post-election "lame duck" session of Congress, policymakers should not make budget decisions with long-term consequences based on an erroneous belief: that the economy will immediately plunge into a recession early next year if the tax and spending changes required under current law actually take effect on January 2 because policymakers haven't yet worked out a budget agreement.


http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3788

If you're a policy nerd and DON'T regularly visit this site, you're missing out!

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 01:33 PM

31. visit schmisit

I get regular email updates.

Pisses me off though that they support the accursed payroll tax holiday, and I have sent them a couple emails saying so.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 05:00 PM

46. OK. I'm am going to give you your laugh of the day...

I Googled the world "Schmisit" thinking that it was some policy blog.



You're welcome.

And I agree that the payroll tax holiday is a poor substitute for fiscal policy. But are you going to take the word of a guy who thinks Schmisit is a website? I wouldn't!

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #46)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 05:36 PM

47. schmisit could be a website

and perhaps not everybody was blessed (?) with a dad who constantly said X, SchmeX.

But I think the accursed payroll tax cut is a poor substitute for progressive tax policy.

And yes that did give me a good laugh, thanks.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 01:48 PM

33. The "sequester" will make the Repugs cry uncle before we do - they will cave.


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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 01:51 PM

34. As one of the 270,000+ federal employees that may be furloughed if we drive "off the cliff"...

...I have to say that I agree with Mr. Krugman. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't extremely worried about what this will do to me and my brothers and sisters in the federal government, but we simply cannot let the Republicans keep holding our nation hostage every time something like this comes up.

I keep hoping this will get resolved before it comes to that, but I guess we'll see...

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 02:19 PM

36. I agree!

He tried to be bipartisan in his first term, he said in his acceptance speech on re-election that he wanted to work with the other side and they told him, not in so many words, to go screw himself!! Time for bipartisanship is ending!! Call their bluff. He needs to play some poker instead of chess!!!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 02:56 PM

38. Sorry Paul: Too Late

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:44 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014297944

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #38)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:22 PM

44. that link just goes to LBN

I still say we keep pushing rather than just accept defeat.

But I am about ready to give up my quest of getting this thread on the DU home page.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #44)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:44 PM

45. Fixed. n/t

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:02 PM

43. What the President should do

I did not hear this speech this afternoon so i don't know any of the details but in my opinion our president should go to the american people with his specific tax plan:

1) list the current tax rates and what rates stay and what rates change

2) rate change on dividends and capital gains

3) what happens if no agreement is reached -- what the rates revert back to , what credits are lost, etc.

This way if the house Rs don't agree with him THEY are responsible for raising taxes on EVERYBODY because the increases on everybody are going to be bigger than the president's proposal. Remember his proposal
is not to tax dividends at ordinary rates but at a max of 20%. Plus the wealthy will be paying into the Affordable Care Act.

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