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monmouth

(21,078 posts)
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 02:56 PM Nov 2012

The jobs number next month will be so excellent. Out of the horror of Sandy will be more jobs than

you can shake a stick at with all of the re-building and repair going on. Plumbers, electricians, every type of work imaginable will be happening. This is the one good thing that has come out of this nightmare.

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The jobs number next month will be so excellent. Out of the horror of Sandy will be more jobs than (Original Post) monmouth Nov 2012 OP
I know - I've been wondering about that... barnabas63 Nov 2012 #1
Parable of the broken window FrodosPet Nov 2012 #2
I hate that false Wiki page jenw2 Nov 2012 #3
So people should go breaking windows to help the economy? FrodosPet Nov 2012 #6
Umm if the window is broken. barnabas63 Nov 2012 #7
If the window is broken FrodosPet Nov 2012 #12
As far as "Creating Wealth" goes FrodosPet Nov 2012 #10
If you can create wealth like you and the conservatives claim... jenw2 Nov 2012 #17
But the story doesn't end with the Good Shopkeeper's lighter pocket ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #11
As long as the glazier doesn't miss out on a construction job to do a repair job FrodosPet Nov 2012 #14
I'm not understanding ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #16
If Sandy is good for the economy... FrodosPet Nov 2012 #4
You're purposefully missing the intent of this discussion. barnabas63 Nov 2012 #8
Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #13
Well, that will be after the elction, but more to the point... TreasonousBastard Nov 2012 #5
yes there will be some hiring related to the post-Sandy rebuilding effort onenote Nov 2012 #9
Time for Mitt to throw in the towel as promised. lpbk2713 Nov 2012 #15
Doesn't sound like it. "Expert" on TV talking about that this morning... Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #18

barnabas63

(1,214 posts)
1. I know - I've been wondering about that...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 02:58 PM
Nov 2012

Talk about a "shovel ready" project. I hope some good will come of this so that the people affected especially will have the opportunity to work and get back on their feet.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
2. Parable of the broken window
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:03 PM
Nov 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James Goodfellow, when his careless son has happened to break a pane of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation—"It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"

Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade—that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs—I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! Your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

~ snip ~
 

jenw2

(374 posts)
3. I hate that false Wiki page
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:05 PM
Nov 2012

It ignores how the broken window does the good thing in moving money from the business owners to the people that do the actual work. So while breaking windows doesn't create wealth (nothing really does), it does do good.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
6. So people should go breaking windows to help the economy?
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:24 PM
Nov 2012

Perhaps people should go around torching automobiles so we can get the auto industry on track.

"Why did you beat that guy up?" "So he would have to go to the hospital and help create jobs in the emergency room"

Once upon a time, I used to fall for the "make work" fallacy myself.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
12. If the window is broken
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:44 PM
Nov 2012

The wealth of the world is diminished by one window, plus the labor needed to replace a window (as opposed to creating a window for a new house, school, or hospital, which increases the wealth of the world).

As I said in another post, there is, and always will be, a deterioration of physical assets.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
10. As far as "Creating Wealth" goes
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:36 PM
Nov 2012

I suppose it depends on your definition of wealth.

Money is not wealth. Money is a number, a medium of exchange which has nearly infinite variability.

A wealthy country is one that has the physical, intellectual, and infrastructure resources to provide a sufficient, and even superior, standard of living for its citizens. People have food to eat, energy to stay warm in the cold times and cool in the hot. They have medical care to recover from illness and injury. They have roads and rails to move products from where they are produced to where they are needed. And they have arts and entertainment and sports to provide emotional and/or intellectual satisfaction and growth.

Wealth CAN be created, and MUST be created - if for no other reason that there is no such thing as static wealth. It is in a constant state of consumption and deterioration.

 

jenw2

(374 posts)
17. If you can create wealth like you and the conservatives claim...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:46 PM
Nov 2012

why don't we just continue breaking windows until we're all rich?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
11. But the story doesn't end with the Good Shopkeeper's lighter pocket ...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:41 PM
Nov 2012
It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.


While it is true that the Good Shopkeeper might not be able to replace his old shoes or add another book to his library ... the Glaizier can!

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
14. As long as the glazier doesn't miss out on a construction job to do a repair job
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:53 PM
Nov 2012

The "good shopkeeper" needs to hope the glazier has the time and materials to do the job and allow him to return to business. Otherwise, he is out for more than the 6 Francs if his revenue stream has been impeded.

It blows my mind how many people think that money shuffling is the same as wealth creation. To me, this is the mindset that has allowed Wall Street, banking and other similar industries to become larger and more powerful than they should be. Lots of time and effort spent moving from this account to that account to the other account, as opposed to developing assets useful to improving the human condition.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
16. I'm not understanding ...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 05:22 PM
Nov 2012

the objection in the first paragraph seems to suppose that THAT glazier is the ONLY glazier in the town; but if so, or if all the other glaziers, don't have the time or materials to do the job ... how would the Good Shopkeeper be out of any money?

And why would the Good Shopkeeper's revenue stream be impeded because of a broken window?

Regarding your second paragraph ... again, I'm not understanding. The trade in services, in this Good Shopkeeper story is NOTHING like the money shuffling on wallstreet ... here the Good Shopkeeper is paying for a tangible service, the window repair; on wall-street investors are betting on what other investors will do.

So maybe, I'm not understanding what you are saying and you can explain your objections a little more clearly.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
4. If Sandy is good for the economy...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:15 PM
Nov 2012

You can make the argument that war is a wonderful thing. It employs Soldiers and Sailors and Airmen and Marines. Not to mention the gun makers and bomb makers and ship makers. Uniforms must be sewed, transport built, fueled, and maintained.

But the resources used to kill people and break things are resources NOT being used to build better housing, safer roads and bridges, a more robust energy production and distribution, etc.

barnabas63

(1,214 posts)
8. You're purposefully missing the intent of this discussion.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:28 PM
Nov 2012

No one is saying that people should go around breaking things, for christ sake.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
13. Well ...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:45 PM
Nov 2012

WWII did pull the U.S. out of a depression.

But the resources used to kill people and break things are resources NOT being used to build better housing, safer roads and bridges, a more robust energy production and distribution, etc.


But those borrowed resources for war created non-debt resources (and demand) for the building of housing, safer roads, etc.

I'm not championing war ... just pointing out that every tragedgy creates economic opportunity.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
5. Well, that will be after the elction, but more to the point...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:23 PM
Nov 2012

is that the raw numbers will be adjusted for this spike in jobs. And other economic activity.

onenote

(42,296 posts)
9. yes there will be some hiring related to the post-Sandy rebuilding effort
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:33 PM
Nov 2012

but in the short term (and medium term) the lost jobs from Sandy are likely to greatly outweigh the new jobs.
If your restaurant or business was destroyed or severely damaged to the point that it can't function, you almost certainly aren't going to start rebuilding immediately. You will need to deal with insurance adjusters etc to get funding. Even government assistance isn't going to be handed out for rebuilding immediatly. Building permits will be another time-consumer and there probably will be a backlog for awhile. Once construction begins, it will take additional time before businesses are able to resume operations, especially when you factor in inevitable delays due to winter conditions. In the meantime, the office workers, waiters and waitresses, gift shop cashiers, etc etc will be out of work. There will be more of those than there will be construction workers, at least for several months.

Bottom line: Sandy is most assuredly not going to make next months' job numbers "excellent".

lpbk2713

(42,674 posts)
15. Time for Mitt to throw in the towel as promised.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:59 PM
Nov 2012



Speaking with Jon Ralston, Romney said, "if {voters} feel the economy is
going in the right direction, they ought to vote for Barack Obama."



Link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/09/1063390/-Romney-Concedes-Election-and-Endorses-Obama

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
18. Doesn't sound like it. "Expert" on TV talking about that this morning...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:50 PM
Nov 2012

he said there would be jobs because of it, but a lot more jobs were lost. Entire areas, homes and businesses, were washed away. Others destroyed and will take a long time to rebuild the area.

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