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Fri Nov 2, 2012, 02:56 PM

The jobs number next month will be so excellent. Out of the horror of Sandy will be more jobs than

you can shake a stick at with all of the re-building and repair going on. Plumbers, electricians, every type of work imaginable will be happening. This is the one good thing that has come out of this nightmare.

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Reply The jobs number next month will be so excellent. Out of the horror of Sandy will be more jobs than (Original post)
monmouth Nov 2012 OP
barnabas63 Nov 2012 #1
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #2
jenw2 Nov 2012 #3
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #6
barnabas63 Nov 2012 #7
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #12
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #10
jenw2 Nov 2012 #17
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #11
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #14
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #16
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #4
barnabas63 Nov 2012 #8
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #13
TreasonousBastard Nov 2012 #5
onenote Nov 2012 #9
lpbk2713 Nov 2012 #15
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #18

Response to monmouth (Original post)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 02:58 PM

1. I know - I've been wondering about that...

Talk about a "shovel ready" project. I hope some good will come of this so that the people affected especially will have the opportunity to work and get back on their feet.

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Response to barnabas63 (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:03 PM

2. Parable of the broken window

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James Goodfellow, when his careless son has happened to break a pane of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation—"It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"

Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade—that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs—I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! Your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

~ snip ~

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:05 PM

3. I hate that false Wiki page

 

It ignores how the broken window does the good thing in moving money from the business owners to the people that do the actual work. So while breaking windows doesn't create wealth (nothing really does), it does do good.

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:24 PM

6. So people should go breaking windows to help the economy?

Perhaps people should go around torching automobiles so we can get the auto industry on track.

"Why did you beat that guy up?" "So he would have to go to the hospital and help create jobs in the emergency room"

Once upon a time, I used to fall for the "make work" fallacy myself.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:27 PM

7. Umm if the window is broken.

..it needs to be fixed. I really don't get your point.

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Response to barnabas63 (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:44 PM

12. If the window is broken

The wealth of the world is diminished by one window, plus the labor needed to replace a window (as opposed to creating a window for a new house, school, or hospital, which increases the wealth of the world).

As I said in another post, there is, and always will be, a deterioration of physical assets.

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:36 PM

10. As far as "Creating Wealth" goes

I suppose it depends on your definition of wealth.

Money is not wealth. Money is a number, a medium of exchange which has nearly infinite variability.

A wealthy country is one that has the physical, intellectual, and infrastructure resources to provide a sufficient, and even superior, standard of living for its citizens. People have food to eat, energy to stay warm in the cold times and cool in the hot. They have medical care to recover from illness and injury. They have roads and rails to move products from where they are produced to where they are needed. And they have arts and entertainment and sports to provide emotional and/or intellectual satisfaction and growth.

Wealth CAN be created, and MUST be created - if for no other reason that there is no such thing as static wealth. It is in a constant state of consumption and deterioration.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:46 PM

17. If you can create wealth like you and the conservatives claim...

 

why don't we just continue breaking windows until we're all rich?

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:41 PM

11. But the story doesn't end with the Good Shopkeeper's lighter pocket ...

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.


While it is true that the Good Shopkeeper might not be able to replace his old shoes or add another book to his library ... the Glaizier can!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:53 PM

14. As long as the glazier doesn't miss out on a construction job to do a repair job

The "good shopkeeper" needs to hope the glazier has the time and materials to do the job and allow him to return to business. Otherwise, he is out for more than the 6 Francs if his revenue stream has been impeded.

It blows my mind how many people think that money shuffling is the same as wealth creation. To me, this is the mindset that has allowed Wall Street, banking and other similar industries to become larger and more powerful than they should be. Lots of time and effort spent moving from this account to that account to the other account, as opposed to developing assets useful to improving the human condition.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 05:22 PM

16. I'm not understanding ...

the objection in the first paragraph seems to suppose that THAT glazier is the ONLY glazier in the town; but if so, or if all the other glaziers, don't have the time or materials to do the job ... how would the Good Shopkeeper be out of any money?

And why would the Good Shopkeeper's revenue stream be impeded because of a broken window?

Regarding your second paragraph ... again, I'm not understanding. The trade in services, in this Good Shopkeeper story is NOTHING like the money shuffling on wallstreet ... here the Good Shopkeeper is paying for a tangible service, the window repair; on wall-street investors are betting on what other investors will do.

So maybe, I'm not understanding what you are saying and you can explain your objections a little more clearly.

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Response to barnabas63 (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:15 PM

4. If Sandy is good for the economy...

You can make the argument that war is a wonderful thing. It employs Soldiers and Sailors and Airmen and Marines. Not to mention the gun makers and bomb makers and ship makers. Uniforms must be sewed, transport built, fueled, and maintained.

But the resources used to kill people and break things are resources NOT being used to build better housing, safer roads and bridges, a more robust energy production and distribution, etc.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:28 PM

8. You're purposefully missing the intent of this discussion.

No one is saying that people should go around breaking things, for christ sake.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:45 PM

13. Well ...

WWII did pull the U.S. out of a depression.

But the resources used to kill people and break things are resources NOT being used to build better housing, safer roads and bridges, a more robust energy production and distribution, etc.


But those borrowed resources for war created non-debt resources (and demand) for the building of housing, safer roads, etc.

I'm not championing war ... just pointing out that every tragedgy creates economic opportunity.

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Response to monmouth (Original post)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:23 PM

5. Well, that will be after the elction, but more to the point...

is that the raw numbers will be adjusted for this spike in jobs. And other economic activity.

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Response to monmouth (Original post)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:33 PM

9. yes there will be some hiring related to the post-Sandy rebuilding effort

but in the short term (and medium term) the lost jobs from Sandy are likely to greatly outweigh the new jobs.
If your restaurant or business was destroyed or severely damaged to the point that it can't function, you almost certainly aren't going to start rebuilding immediately. You will need to deal with insurance adjusters etc to get funding. Even government assistance isn't going to be handed out for rebuilding immediatly. Building permits will be another time-consumer and there probably will be a backlog for awhile. Once construction begins, it will take additional time before businesses are able to resume operations, especially when you factor in inevitable delays due to winter conditions. In the meantime, the office workers, waiters and waitresses, gift shop cashiers, etc etc will be out of work. There will be more of those than there will be construction workers, at least for several months.

Bottom line: Sandy is most assuredly not going to make next months' job numbers "excellent".

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Response to monmouth (Original post)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 03:59 PM

15. Time for Mitt to throw in the towel as promised.




Speaking with Jon Ralston, Romney said, "if {voters} feel the economy is
going in the right direction, they ought to vote for Barack Obama."



Link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/09/1063390/-Romney-Concedes-Election-and-Endorses-Obama

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Response to monmouth (Original post)

Fri Nov 2, 2012, 08:50 PM

18. Doesn't sound like it. "Expert" on TV talking about that this morning...

he said there would be jobs because of it, but a lot more jobs were lost. Entire areas, homes and businesses, were washed away. Others destroyed and will take a long time to rebuild the area.

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