The education of women...

[Skidmore]

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. This is true for men as well.

Percentage of young adults ages 25 to 34 whose highest level of educational attainment was a bachelor's or higher degree, by race/ethnicity and sex: 2010

From NCES

Poor education is one of the reasons that we have a hard time getting men to vote for Democrats.

[Tumbulu]

2. In much of the world girls are not allowed to be educated

Here we all are allowed an education- many have a much harder time affording it than others, but in general entire groups are not excluded. Who takes advantage of it is another matter.

Where I lived in Africa only some boys were taught to read and write. The girls and women had to do all the work such as : collect water, wash all the clothes, iron them- after collecting the wood to heat the iron- so that this insect that laid it's eggs in the drying cloth would not burrow into ones skin- could be killed by the heat, grow all the food, cook all the food and then serve the men- who had been praying the whole day- the meals. Any food leftover the women and children got to eat.

This, only women doing the physical work and men responsible for praying and occasionally growing a cash crop was not a culture that I admired. And this pattern of women doing way more physical work than men and being excluded from a chance at literacy is far from unique to the area I worked in.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Agreed.

Does extending the situation in the US in which women run and are the primary beneficiaries of education, make the situation in Africa any better?

[Tumbulu]

4. I do not know what you are talking about

Elementary education was traditionally the only area women were allowed in - high school and college educators primarily male. Now that those fields have been opened up, it is simply a matter of competition. If men are not as interested in education, is it appropriate to force them into it?

I am more into barriers being removed than forcing people to do things that does not interest them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. It's clear that you do.

Women run primary and secondary education, the primary beneficiaries of which are girls.

In *this* country, boys get better SAT scores, but the teachers award them poorer grades. The net result is their sisters are 50% more likely to attend college.

Education is important for everyone. One need not look to Africa to find examples of people believe otherwise.

[Tumbulu]

6. Well why don't more men become teachers?

Is there some law against male teachers? I am not aware of any. You report that girls appear to be smarter than boys - well what does that say? Girls work harder? That is a given all over the world. Women and girls have been held back to allow the boys and men to have an easier path to monetary success. Once these barriers are removed it becomes clear that girls and women are serious and work hard. Of course they do- all over the world this is the case. Boys and men, if not given an unfair advantage will have to actually WORK. Do you think men should not have to compete with women? Why do you think that boys do not work as hard at school than girls? Don't you think in the long run that boys once the unfair advantages they have enjoyed might start thriving and striving to do better? Won't we all be better off if we are all encouraged to try our hardest?

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. a) Read what *men say* are their reasons. The answer is NOT money.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/sep/29/schools

b) No I didn't. I informed you that teachers give girls get better grades despite a poorer apprehension of the subject matter as indicated by standardized tests such as the SAT.



c) All you're offering is stereotype.

[Tumbulu]

8. SAT tests are tests

grades are a result of all sorts of things- such as paying attention, doing homework, listening to the teacher, participating in class, etc.

I do not get your gripe at all.

Men and women, girls and boys should have equal opportunities- which at long last is just beginning to happen. If the boys are not using their opportunities, then that is their problem. Not women's and or girl's fault.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. No, the opportunities have been unequal for 35 years.

It's a firmly entrenched form of institutional sexism.

Boys;
drop out
commit suicide
are placed in special ed
are disciplined
don't go to college

... for many obvious and institutional reasons. The social reaction? a 5:1 ratio between scholarships for girls and scholarships for boys, combined with government programs in the name of "gender equity" which award grants to schools which offer innovative ways to extend the gap by which girls disproportionately benefit from education.

I find it intriguing how my fellow liberals can airily dismiss the problems that children face as "their own fault"... provided the children in question are boys.

And yes, it is sexism.

[Tumbulu]

10. Oh good grief

I think you are mistaken and this is ridiculous.

Boys and men have been artificially elevated by sexism for what 5-6000 years? and so, one begins to level the playing field and it becomes clear that we all have a lot to contribute. And if the boys need to worker harder to keep up, then get going. And if men think that boys are not being helped enough, then help them. Who is stopping dad's from homeschooling their boys if they think boys need men to teach them? Or paying for male tutors?

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. You're entitled to think what you want.

You're not entitled to be right about it.

If your disagreement has any factual basis, by all means, provide some contrary evidence.

The playing field has not "begun to be leveled". It is massively tilted by the sexist belief that in the US it is more socially important to educate girls.

[Tumbulu]

13. If you believe this to be true

What are you doing about it?

My big issue was pesticides and so I devoted my life's work to reducing their use. I'd like to hear how you are addressing this problem. Convincing me that there is a problem does nothing to solve it.

I do not see it as an issue or a problem. It seems pretty ridiculous to me. But I am a woman and have a daughter. My friends with sons work darn hard to be good parents and I never hear anything about all this. We all work hard to be the best parents we can be and to support our children's teachers.

[liberal_at_heart]

14. I will not disparage women's advancement in education

Last edited Wed Oct 24, 2012, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

I have a 17 daughter who will be the first female in our family to have a real shot at college. You speak of 35 years of sexism against boys. Well, we have had to deal with over 200 years of sexism. We have fought hard to catch up. All women should be proud of that. However, I will agree that when boys do struggle in school more does need to be done. Along with a daughter, I also have a 14 yr old autistic son who is in special education. The special education program he is in sucks. He has an independent education plan that is not in his best interest. And yes I have tried to fight them on this. It did not good. They refused to change it. I was even refused a hearing. I believe that because special education is so costly that schools are pressured to push these kids into general education classes as quickly as possible. In fact, I was told on day one of his sixth grade curriculum night that their goal was to get these kids into general education classes. That is a great goal to have if you the kids are ready. Problem is they are pushing to put them in those classes way before they are ready for them. I was also told that because his IQ was too high we could not put him in a special education class that would provide him more support. Another thing that really ticked me off was in elementary school when he was in the fifth grade he was about a 3rd grade math level. The school district has a strict policy that all sixth graders must take sixth grade math. So, he had to go from a 3rd grade math level class to a sixth grade math level class. To this day he has a D average in math. So, in some aspects I do agree with you. The answer however is not to discourage the progress girls are making. It has taken girls in this country too long to catch up. We should not cut off their progress. But we should give boys extra support when they need it as well.

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. My youngest son is 13 and also has autism.

My goal for him has always been maximizing his time in the general ed classroom. Right? Wrong? I don't know. We all do our best, often with only a trivial amount of help.

He has his off-days, but he passed all his 7th grade classes and it looks like he's going to pass all his 8th grade classes.

He has two brothers.

The middle brother (20) had numerous run-ins for really stupid stuff including the time the cops were called to his school to interview him and several of his friends "for talking about guns" at school. The police detective found out from the interviews that they were talking about airsoft guns. No matter... he got an emergency expulsion "because it alarmed the school counselor". He graduated from the alternative school in a neighboring community and is now enrolled in the local community college taking diesel mechanics classes (which he loves, and excels at, but wishes he'd been adequately taught how to read, write and do math)

The eldest is now 22 and a truck driver. He's quite bright, and I always thought he'd be an engineer.
I still remember the open house with his Kindergarten teacher.
Teacher; "Heaven help me this year, this is going to be awful. Heh, heh."
Me; "What's wrong?"
Teacher; "This year's class has 13 boys and only 8 girls! *Eyeroll*"

That remark has succinctly set the tone of my (and the kids) 17 years of experience with public schools. Like most boys, all three of mine got the message from the schools that education really isn't intended for them.

One very promising tool to improve education for both boys and girls is single sex classrooms. Sadly, once educators found that although boys and girls both learn better in that setting, the potential gains for boys education is greater. It is therefore unacceptable.

[liberal_at_heart]

16. I have to disagree with the single sex classrooms

When the sexes are seperated the boys get this idea that they don't have to include the girls. It becomes a boys club and then we are right back where we were. I do believe there are things they can do to help boys with the boys and girls in the same classroom. I know when my kids where in elementary school, every twenty minutes they would get up and move around. Boys need movement. They need to be physically active. Girls are okay with sitting in one place for entire hour listening to a lecture. Boys typically do better with hands on assignments. There is a way to encorporate all of that into the classroom. We just need schools that are willing to ditch the status quo and change things up a bit. My son is in middle school and his favorite class in still PE. What I don't get is that they understand that elementary school kids need physical movement in the classroom. But by the time middle school and high school comes around the kids are expected to sit still and quietly for an hour and listen to the teacher talk. Now, why on Earth are they so accomodating for the elementary school kids and so rigid with the middle and high school students. It doesn't make any sense to me. They also completely abandon teaching socail skills to middle and high school students despite the fact that it is in middle school when bullying usually starts. There is no doubt our schools are lacking. Hell, let's be honest. They are failing our kids. All you have to do is look at where we are globally in math and science scores to know that. But I still say we cannot let our girls slide back to being expected to marry well and be good housewives. We need our girls to be strong and intelligent so they can be our next Fortune 500 CEO or our next President of the United States. What we need to do is find out how we can help our struggling boys do better without taking our girls' successes away from them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. I think you should critically re-read what you wrote.

1) When the sexes are seperated the boys get this idea that they don't have to include the girls. It becomes a boys club and then we are right back where we were.

- Except the girls are in another classroom, learning what the boys are learning, led by a teacher free to teach in a style that reaches them. Boys learn to play the flute in their classroom and girls learn science in theirs. Besides, is the primary purpose of school really to indoctrinate boys on the right way to treat girls? What we have now is arguably a girls club where the boys aren't necessarily excluded, but the teachers know full well that the boys won't all keep up.

2) We do poorly on international math and science scores.

- Of course we do. The kids with an aptitude for math and science are expected to drive trucks or become diesel mechanics. The college class space they would otherwise have occupied is then sold to foreign students on education visas, who will then become the engineers and scientists (either via H1B visa or by taking the skills back home). To the extent that girls with math and science aptitude fail to develop those skills, it is largely because of the classroom dynamic.

3) "But I still say we cannot let our girls slide back to being expected to marry well and be good housewives."
- Right. Because that was EXACTLY what I was proposing.

[davidn3600]

17. No one is talking about going back to the stone age

But the question is why are we pushing this female education stuff so hard in America when 60% of college graduates today are female? What should the ratio be before we start to wonder about what boys are doing?

I mean if you are not careful we will eventually have a society where women are educated but also the breadwinners of the family in addition to doing all the other work in the household. And what's the man's role in all this? Watching TV? Women will soon be back doing all the work again. Just like that tribe in Africa you are talking about.

Men have lost motivation and ambition today. They are living with their parents longer. They are putting off marriage. They are more depressed. Suicide rates are higher. They flunk out of school more often than girls now. Etc.. But worrying about the "war on boys" won't win you many votes. So it is what it is.

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Here is an article on it that no one wants to talk about or admit the problem even exists...
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765552031/The-war-on-boys-young-men-are-facing-a-new-crisis.html?pg=all

[liberal_at_heart]

18. The messages girls get from our society are still hurdles

I don't know if you've ever heard of Pink's song "Stupid Girls" but it is very relavent today. Our culture tells them to aspire to be Paris Hilton or Snooki not Hillary Clinton or Meg Whitman. Our girls see that because of the gap in pay they can make more money being a millionaires trophy wife than by working your way to the top. This year there are 18 female CEOs in our Fortune 500 companies. There is still work to be done to inspire these young women. We're not saying we shouldn't help our boys. I have a son who is struggling in school right now. I know he needs help. But we don't have to tear down our girls to lift up our boys.

And what is with this paragraph?:
"I mean if you are not careful we will eventually have a society where women are educated but also the breadwinners of the family in addition to doing all the other work in the household. And what's the man's role in all this? Watching TV? Women will soon be back doing all the work again. Just like that tribe in Africa you are talking about. "

You said we're not talking about going back to the stone age but that comment sure sounds like it came from the stone age.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. That is an excellent article.

Here's the money quote

Even with all the efforts, though, Thompson sees a wide swath of misperception wreaking havoc on educational outcomes for boys.

"The teachers in school sometimes start to treat the boys as if they're always failing the standard — and the standard is the way the girls act," he says. "I talk about this as the girls being the gold standard and the boys always being seen as being defective girls. ...
"We can't still keep thinking that it's always girls who get the short end of the stick. Girls passed boys academically in 1982 and pulled even in math and science in 2003," says Thompson, who is one of the experts pushing for the White House Council on Boys and Men. He is annoyed that the president set up a council for girls and women "and it never occurred to him to do one on men. "I'm in favor of more specific attention to boy underachievement in schools, the problems of male unemployment in this country and a whole number of health issues."

I've cross posted it to the Men's group.

[ismnotwasm]

11. Nice

Thank you