Venezuelan democracy: "The best in the world."

[JackRiddler]

Last edited Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:33 PM - Edit history (1)

The best in the world. That's what Jimmy Carter called the election system in Venezuela, noting that the Carter Center has monitored 92 elections.

Susan Scott and Azadeh Shahshahani of the National Lawyers Guild were among the 220 international parliamentarians, election officials, academics, journalists, and judges present in Venezuela as observers of the presidential elections last Sunday. They write:

What makes Venezuela’s electoral system stand out resides in a combination of factors. The Bolivarian project of “21st Century Socialism” and Latin American integration, initiated by Hugo Chavez and his supporters after his first election in 1998, is a fundamentally democratic project. Chavez has repeatedly emphasized that its legitimacy and viability lies in the will of the people as expressed in free and fair elections. The 1999 Bolivarian Constitution was itself drafted by an assembly of elected members with significant popular input and was adopted in a national referendum by a 72% popular vote. It provides for an independent National Electoral Council (CNE), chosen by the elected National Assembly (Congress), and with a constitutional status equal to the other four branches of government (executive, legislative, judicial, and Poder Ciudadano, “People’s Power,” which includes the Attorney General, Human Rights Defender, and Comptroller General). The Constitution provides for more than the election of political representatives – there are provisions for referenda to change the Constitution (used in 2007 and 2009), referenda to abrogate laws, and even for recall of the president (attempted in 2004).

As more and more elections are conducted under the CNE’s leadership (28 since the Bolivarian Constitution) and more electoral laws and regulations passed, the electoral system has become increasingly trusted and respected by the Venezuelan populace. The system has been used by unions to elect leadership and even by the opposition to elect its standard bearer in a primary last February (also witnessed by an NLG delegation).

Since the 1998 election of Hugo Chavez and the 1999 adoption of the Bolivarian Constitution, voter registration has climbed from 11 million in 1998 to almost 19 million today, as a result of a robust registration program throughout the country, targeting the country’s poorest communities. The number of polling places has increased from 20,202 in 1998 to 38, 239 in 2012.

Perhaps the most outstanding aspect of the Venezuelan electoral system is the technology used to record, verify, and transmit the votes. The technology provides for accessible electronic voting with a verifiable paper trail and instant transmission of vote counts from remote locations to CNE headquarters. CNE’s anti-hacking and multiple transparent audit and identity authentication systems have put to rest past opposition claims of fraud. At each of the polling stations we visited, there were observers present representing both the Capriles and the Chavez camps. The observers expressed satisfaction with the integrity and transparency of the process, regardless of their political affiliation.

Source: http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/10/11/investing-in-democracy-in-venezuela/

I'm not entirely convinced by any electronic system, but I am convinced that Venezuelans are aware of the potential troubles with any such system, to a much greater extent than any of the US states who use a hodge-podge of different corporate-owned systems. They understand that the vote can be hacked, there must be a full paper trail and multiple authentication systems.

The authors go on to note that Venezuela does not regard elections as a field for cutting costs, and has invested enormous sums in building up this system. Capriles conceded freely and had to accept the fairly counted result. The majority chose Chavez, once again.

Venezuela is obviously far ahead of our own country in guaranteeing the integrity and fairness of elections. But this is the country that is defamed by US and some European propaganda and corporate-owned media as a dictatorship! Meanwhile, Colombia may with some luck emerge from decades of death-squad governments backed by US taxpayer money, and Mexico unfortunately looks like it's not going to soon back down from a US-backed drug war that has turned that country into a narco state where military and paramilitary death squads directly involved with the cartels murder tens of thousands of people.

[JackRiddler]

1. Prior VZ thread

Are you frustrated because you can't repeat right-wing points about Obama here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021498218

[JackRiddler]

8. And a bump

[JackRiddler]

12. And another, with a sigh...

I should have posted some anti-Chavez propaganda, that would get his attackers and defenders kicking this thread for days.

[teddy51]

2. I might be wrong, but I have always thought that Hugo Chavez is a pretty straight shooter!

My understanding is that he treats his people very well.

[sabrina 1]

4. He is, very straightforward. We loved him back during the Bush years as he never hesitated when he

had the chance, to call Bush out and say publicly what many other leaders wanted to say, but were afraid to do so. His reasons for doing so might have had something to do with the failed US Backed coup against him of course.

I guess we have to face the reality that our rulers are never going to back democratically elected governments in oil producing countries. Real Democratic Leaders represent their people first and believe the benefits of their resources should go to the people who own them. Chavez believes this. He has used some of Venezuela's oil profits to provide education and healthcare for Venezuelans. And that is why the Global Cartels and Western powers hate him. He will not sell his country to the highest bidder. And that is why the US has always liked right wing dictators in that part of the world better. They WILL sell their countries out for their own personal gain, like Pinochet eg.

Something needs to be done about our foreign policy. It really is reprehensible that for decades we have backed some of the worst and most brutal dictators, while backing coups against the people's own chosen leaders. Something is very wrong with that kind of foreign policy.

[socialist_n_TN]

9. RE: US foreign policy..........

It's an old story actually. It's called imperialism and it is the last stages of capitalism. Get rid of capitalism and you get rid of imperialism.

[former-republican]

11. Is it true his personal wealth has reached a billion dollars?

How do you explain that ?

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. I couldn't find anything to validate that claim? What do you have?

[Gabi Hayes]

32. some say it's true, so it HAS to be true!

if it's about Chavez, anyway

the people who are saying that are probably the ones who went after Obama recently for speaking about that other Chavez guy....so stupid they don't know the difference

some say.....

[vinny9698]

38. Yep, I read on the internet too

and you know nobody can lie on the internet. All is true because the computer will not permit lies.

[Vidar]

3. Far better than the corrupt mess we have.

[Justina For Justice]

5. There Is Much, Much More Democracy in Venezuela Than in the U.S.

As an American who has been living and teaching in Venezuela for the last five and a half years, I have observed that the Chavez government has continually increased genuine democracy in this country. He has established neighborhood councils which, by majority vote, decide what are the priorities for the neighborhood and, with technical assistance and funding from the government, develop plans to solve problems and improve the neighborhood and carry them out.The spokespeople for each community council are subject to immediate recall if they don't carry out the wishes of the community. This is true democracy.

The U.S. State Department and its corporate media puppets demonize President Chavez, calling him a dictator. He is the very opposite. They fear him because they are terrified that Americans might start demanding universal free health care and public education to the doctoral level, as well as free or lost cost food and housing for all who need it. There are now extensive programs to provide pensions, stipends and services to the elderly population, children and those having discapacities. The government is in the process of building two millions low cost houses and up to three million people will benefit from an extensive government training and employment program.

Poverty has been cut in half. Illiteracy has been virtually abolished. Non-traditional schooling and training programs abound for those who previously could not access education and job training.

Sixty percent of Venezuela's budget is devoted to programs which improve the standard of living of the population.

These are the reasons President Chavez has been re-elected four times with substantial majorities. Chavez is proving that democratic socialism, done right, works. This is what the U.S. desperately needs. This is why the U.S. government, controlled by the corporations and its 1%, is terrified of President Chavez. He is showing what can be accomplished when a government actually puts the needs and aspirations of its people first.

[sabrina 1]

6. Thank you for your post. I was thinking about going there to teach about eight years ago as I read

the ideas he had about education and the commitment to following through which was evident even after his first term. Not just campaign promises. I have friends who are there and in the beginning they did not support him, but after his first term they have supported him strongly ever since.

I believe you are right as to why the Western powers fear him. He has shown that these policies work and create a far better society than their destructive, austerity programs and lack of concern for actual people.

I remember him promising to eradicate illiteracy back in 2002 and wondered if he could do it. Airc, when he took office illiteracy was at about 80%. But he has. He didn't just make education/reading available to children, he said he wanted every man, woman and child to learn to read so they could participate in their democracy.

I have also read that many Europeans, victims of the Western Predatory Capitalism policies are now moving to Venezuela, especially young Spanish people whose own country has been tragically destroyed economically.

How dare they really, criticize what he is trying to do when they have failed so tragically and so spectacularly and most of them ought to be in jail.

I can see why people from Europe will be immigrating to Latin American countries like Venezuela. It is exciting to see what they have all accomplished in such a short time.

The leaders of the EU should talke to Chavez and get some advice on how to repair the damage caused by the Global Corps. Good for Latin America for protecting their countries from these predators again. They learned the hard way. Same thing will probably happen in Europe also.

It seems you made a good decision. History is being made in that part of the world and I hope we leave them alone although as you can see, even here on DU we have those who think we always know better despite the mess we are in right now.

[socialist_n_TN]

10. Those neighborhood councils are reminiscent of Bolshevik/Trotskyist........

models for a TRUE representative democracy, including the immediate recall provisions.

[Odin2005]

14. +1,000,000,000,000

[JackRiddler]

7. Here's how it works with VZ threads on DU...

If you post the lies and propaganda from AP, Reuters et al. claiming some new outrage by the "dictator" Chavez, it gets a reaction from people who know a lot better. Then there are long exchanges between just a couple of people on both sides.

Whereas an OP with simple truth is going to get some bumps from defenders of VZ, while the usual attackers will stay away. What's to gain? They'll bump it if the headline reads "Chavez Socialist Dictator Eats Children!!!"

[sabrina 1]

13. I think the anti-Venezuelan Democracy contingency has been dealt a serious blow everywhere. Despite

the years of propaganda especially here in the West, they could not overcome the people of Venezuela's determination not to allow their country to be delivered into the hands of the Global Cartels and their representatives in the World Bank and the IMF (which Chavez extricated his country from).

I think the problem for the propagandists now is that the world is far more aware of the tactics than in the past. People no longer trust the major media and for good reason so most thinking people view everything they read in the Western media with a great deal of skepticism.

Your assessment is correct though and interesting. Kick negative articles, stay away from factually based information on Venezuela.

Watching what is going on in Europe all I can say is that the people of Latin America who had leaders like Chavez who extricated them from the influences that have collapsed the economies of the world, are very fortunate. Europe is in a state of near collapse due the kind of policies they would like to impose on Latin America once again. I think enough time has passed to keep them out of that region of the world now.

[upi402]

15. Sound assesment, I figure ^

I've felt that I was posting objective facts and observations here. The reactionary anti-Chavez responses were discouraging. It felt like when I defended Kerry or Gore on right wing boards where factual rebuttals elicited name-calling.

Fallacy happens, even here. Chavez is no demigod. Still in all, I'd take some of that here.

[PufPuf23]

16. "Chavez Socialist Dictator Eats Children!!!"

Thanks Jack for the fine article.

[L0oniX]

20. ...and little bunnies and ducklings ...and Bambi!

[CabCurious]

27. yes, anybody who criticizes Chavez is obviously uninformed and believing in propaganda

[JackRiddler]

40. Those who join in the propaganda, yes.

Answer this: Is there a slander campaign against the VZ government or not? I mean out of the USG and the US media.

But if you want to side with the oligarchs and the CIA, who cares what the truth is, right?

[malaise]

18. Don;t forget Bush tried to overthrow Chavez in an attempted coup

announced that he was gone and then it blew up in their faces as loyal army men prevented it.

Venezuela is defamed because it defends ordinary people.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. No-one has questioned that Venezuela has free elections and that Chavez is a legitimate leader.

That's hardly to the point of any of the criticisms of Chavez that are concerned with vastly different issues--like his chumminess with Mahmoud Ahmadenijad, Vladimir Putin, Bashar al-Assad, and the late Muammar Qaddafi, like curtailing freedom of the press ("insulting the president" is an imprisonable offence in Venezuela), like eroding the independence of the judiciary (see: the detention without trial of judge Maria Lourdes Afiuni), and quite a number of other things. Is Chavez the legitimate and democratically elected leader of Venezuela? Yes. Has his leadership achieved many good and positive things for the poor and indigenous inhabitants of his country? Yes. Does that make him a good guy, or mean that he's not to be criticised for questionable alliances, undemocratic actions, and weakening the rule of law? I don't really think that it should; I think that he deserves to be held to the same standard that the leader of any other country would be (if insulting the president suddenly became a crime in the US we'd have people screaming bloody murder about the First Amendment; funny how some of the most vociferous defenders of freedom of speech and the press fall silent when the subject is the leader of another country they otherwise admire).

[JackRiddler]

21. With regard to DU, your header is simply untrue.

There is a contingent here who routinely call Chavez a dictator and tyrant and a communist, and who dispense lies about the government controlling all media in VZ, fixing elections, assassinating opponents, etc. etc. etc. They've taken a break the last week, perhaps for obvious reasons, but usually they are present with a two-minutes hate post every single day. And this feeds into the constant drumbeat of official invective from the State Department and its funded "independent" NGOs a la Freedom House who have turned the progressive state of VZ into an "enemy" of the US. I don't consider VZ an enemy and this propaganda must be imposed to improve relations and the domestic situations in both countries.

Now I'm sorry about the Afiuni case you keep citing but the judge in that case personally escorted the accused money launderer out of the court house in her private elevator, which you must admit is suspicious. Of course it's possible that she's been railroaded or framed, like Don Siegelman in the US, where we have literally dozens of obvious frame-ups of opposition groups by the FBI and police to abhor. Where are any posts by you pointing to such cases in our own country?

Now you are presumably from the country that:

1) is waging a form of political war on Venezuela through black propaganda and direct funding of the opposition, and which backed an attempt to overthrow the legitimate VZ government (for which there was no apology or disclosure of information)

and

2) is responsible for far greater atrocities against justice at home than anything done by the VZ govt, and that supports actual dictatorships and death-squad governments on VZ's doorstep.

As a responsible, taxpaying, voting US citizen, I would hope you'd be more concerned about the real and numerous atrocities in your own country and in the countries that it funds and calls "ally," which is something the American people can actually affect. Blowing the failings of one of our "officially designated enemies" out of all proportion just feeds into the American propaganda against governments that don't toe the American line. What is the standing for the US to lodge complaints about human rights when it has the highest number of prisoners in the world and 2/3 of them are there because of an insane drug war?

As for Chavez's alliances that displease you, when the US apologizes for having tried to overthrow the VZ government, and when it announces definitively that it will not start an aggressive war on Iran because of a fictional nuclear weapons program (which, by the way, Iran would have the same right to pursue as the US itself), and when it backs down from its global empire of more than 1000 bases and hubristic attempt to maintain military dominance in every corner of the globe, then perhaps you'll see less of these alliances of countries (whether or not their governments are good) who band together in defense against the global empire and its imperialist machinations. The US gives every one of these countries an excuse with its threatening rhetoric and a war budget that is usually equal to all other countries' combined. You want to see reforms in Iran? Stop supporting the regime there by giving it an excuse. The sanctions make your hated Ahmedinejad stronger. Bush's condemnation of him prior to the 2005 elections was the equivalent of an ENDORSEMENT. We help make our own enemies.

Finally, of particular relevance to Latin America, please point me to your posts about the US allies Colombia and Mexico, which under cover of the US-backed drug war have had military death squads murder thousands of citizens. That's literally hundreds or thousands of times more important than any imagined crimes of the Chavez regime, and it's your taxes paying for it, so you should be accordingly more incensed about it, rather than echoing the latest claims from the State Department, the CIA's Freedom House, et al.

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. Let me know when the US government starts locking up journalists...

for "insulting the president", please. Or when judges go to prison for issuing rulings the president doesn't like.

And you know, it's perfectly possible to have concern over multiple things; one can walk and chew gum at the same time. Finding Chavez autocratic and his policies, alliances, and associations less than admirable doesn't preclude having similar concern over say US support for the failed war on drugs that's led to lawless violence in Mexico and the Andes, or the many failures of the US government regarding detention without trial and torture, or any of a dozen other things. I've never said the USA has clean hands. The US isn't an ally of a country whose president denies the holocaust and advocates stoning gays to death, either; Chavez is. Know a man by the company he keeps, and all of that.

[JackRiddler]

23. Still missing the essential point.

Your country, the US, is waging an illegitimate propaganda and politics war against Venezuela. Venezuela's failings become secondary in the face of this. Yes, they do. Stop the lies and the deliberate stoking of tension, then you have standing to complain about the handful of exaggerated cases you cite - which are a joke compared to the US treatment of Bradley Manning, Don Siegelman or the Portland anarchists and the Austin occupiers, among many others. You should ask, when will the US end its hostility to Venezuela!

And let me know when Chavez opens up an island prison in a foreign country (so that it can evade its own laws) and renditions people kidnapped from around the world into it and tortures them for years without letting them receive visits let along have representation. Let me know when Chavez drone-bombs his own nationals, or when VZ has the equivalent of an NDAA 1021/1022.

Mexico and Colombia are directly relevant, because they represent the alternative that the US is trying to push on the rest of Latin America: drug war, neoliberalism, and death squads. This is what the US wants for VZ! These are the "allies," one of them next door to VZ, a recipient of US military aid with a half-dozen US bases and US forces operating within its borders. So when you join in the chorus of right-wing talking points against Chavez, that is what you are objectively supporting: the Pinochet solution, which the US attempted to impose on VZ in 2002.

Meanwhile, the world's most advanced police state has been built right here, in the US. And you don't really want to get into the question of the "company we keep," do you? That's a laugher. At least two of the "bad" countries you cite - Russia and Iran - have a history in which the US fucked them over very badly, as you should know, resulting in many of their woes to this day. Would there have been a Putin as a nationalist reaction, if there had not first been a shock therapy run by the Chicago boys. Would there have been ayatollahs without the overthrow of the democratic government and the dictatorship your country imposed on Iran? This is what the US is supporting as a solution for VZ - it's good news that VZ has so successfully resisted and inspired most of Latin America to emerge from the US shadow.

[CabCurious]

28. It doesn't matter that Chavez arrests people and is corrupt... because the USA {fill in the blank}

[JackRiddler]

29. Of course I didn't say that. Your projection is irrelevant.

Read what I wrote.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1533171

What matters most is that the USG - note the G, I am an American it does not speak for me in this - is on a campaign to undermine (or even overthrow) the legitimate VZ government, and the US corporate media serve up one piece of propaganda after the next. I refuse to participate in the daily hate and misinformation. You seem to take it on faith, however.

[Agony]

24. kick because

[UTUSN]

25. Thank Zeus that the outcome averted the need for a civil war!1 n/t

[JackRiddler]

31. Do you think the oligarchs are dumb enough to start one?

They already tried once, as we all know.

[mathematic]

26. Carter did not say that.

You've misquoted and distorted what Carter said. Here's what Carter actually said.

"As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we’ve monitored, I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world."


The Carter Center has monitored 92 elections in 37 countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Carter is ranking Venezuela out of that group ("of the...&quot . Also, "election process" is not the same as "democracy".

In particular, that quote is not comparing the democracy or election processes of Venezuela with long-established democracies like the United States, Canada, Japan, or countries in Europe.

[JackRiddler]

30. That's clear from the OP.

Now you're reaching. Do you even read anything other than the headline, before you post the diversionary point?

[mathematic]

34. How could that possibly be clear from the OP?

Where in the OP do you make it clear that Carter is talking about Venezuela's elections being the best among the 37 countries that his organization has monitored? You wrote that Carter noted that his organization has monitored 92 elections, as if he was only citing his experience. He was not just "noting", he was limiting the countries he was comparing Venezuela to.

Call this a diversion if you want but you're the one that chose to lead and mislead with your title and opening lines. You didn't have to do that you know. You set up the context of your post a certain way. That context was wrong. You explicitly used this context in your concluding paragraph. "Venezuela is obviously far ahead of our own country in guaranteeing the integrity and fairness of elections."

[JackRiddler]

35. You're reaching.

Can you deal with it or not? After 92 elections in 37 countries, Jimmy Carter says Venezuela is best. Meanwhile VZ is under constant attack by USG and US media propaganda. And US elections are a famous mess. That mess is why this site exists, by the way.

Not being roped into this. People can read the OP.

[Enrique]

33. "long-established democracies like the U.S..."

you seem to be suggesting that the U.S. is in a separate category than the lowly countries that Carter monitored.

I would argue otherwise. For example, we have an electoral college system which as far as I know is unique in the world, and which puts us behind the rest of the world. One thing that is indisputable about 2000 is that Gore got 1 million more votes than Bush, but Bush became president. Is that a possible result in any other democracy? Suppose there was some structural quirk that allowed Hugo Chavez to win in similar fashion? Venezuela's election system would be the mockery of the world. But it happens here and we have no problem sitting back and assuming that our system is obviously superior.

[JackRiddler]

36. Apparently, someone's confusing 200 years of assorted frauds...

with "long established." That it is. Ballot stuffing and its electronic successors haven't decided every US election, but there has been heaps of it. Reading "1876" right now, by the way.

[Egalitarian Thug]

37. Whew! I was afraid for a moment that the "Chavez is evil" brigade had disbanded. K&R n/t

[NCTraveler]

39. Link. nt.

[JackRiddler]

41. Sorry. Fixed.

[JackRiddler]

42. The first question in this for US Americans

Last edited Wed Oct 17, 2012, 02:15 PM - Edit history (1)

cannot be, "Is Chavez a bad guy? Is he a dictator?" Because if he is, we didn't pick him, did we now? Venezuelan majorities have backed him a half-dozen times in elections monitored internationally and praised as free and fair.

Necessarily, it must be: "Do I support the attack on Venezuela by my own government?"

Because that's the domestic concern. We are responsible for that. Our taxes pay for the propaganda, direct support to Venezuelan opposition groups, and covert actions.

We're not responsible for Venezuelans choosing Chavez, right or wrong.

[JackRiddler]

43. Days-later final kick!