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Sun Oct 7, 2012, 09:55 AM

Chris Hayes spells it out for dumb ol' me (re: undocumented immigration)...

On the subject of calling humans that reside in this country (without the documentation showing they entered the country with the permission of the US Government) "illegal" - as in "illegal immigrants"; they aren't illegal for being here w/o documentation. The only crime committed is the actual entrance to this country without the permission of the US government.

To refer to them as "illegal" anything is akin to calling someone "illegal-(whatever)" because they exceeded the speed limit on their way to work. Or, fibbed on their taxes. Or, downloaded content w/o paying for it.

I abandoned using the term "illegal immigrant" long ago for the sake of political correctness, but his clarification gives me a strong argument against those who still use the term.

Thanks Chris!

12 replies, 1486 views

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Arrow 12 replies Author Time Post
Reply Chris Hayes spells it out for dumb ol' me (re: undocumented immigration)... (Original post)
Cooley Hurd Oct 2012 OP
avebury Oct 2012 #1
mucifer Oct 2012 #2
Tennessee Gal Oct 2012 #3
factsarenotfair Oct 2012 #9
JustAnotherGen Oct 2012 #4
joelz Oct 2012 #5
hfojvt Oct 2012 #6
Cooley Hurd Oct 2012 #10
Hydra Oct 2012 #11
treestar Oct 2012 #7
vanlassie Oct 2012 #8
Rhiannon12866 Oct 2012 #12

Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:01 AM

1. The whole segment on the subject

was really good. Particularly interesting was the comment that Ellie Wiesel told one of Chris' guests that the Germans started by calling the Jewish people illegal. A comment like that should make people stop and think.

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Response to avebury (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:03 AM

2. Yes, the term "illegal" objectifies people. "Undocumented " sounds more human. nt

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:06 AM

3. Did anyone see the segment at the end?

The lady from OnTheMedia.org talked about a study that explains how people allow themselves to process lies as truth even when confronted with evidence to the contrary. She talked about how it applies to right wingers.

I would like to find that study. I went to their web site, but found no reference to it.

If anyone knows the name of the study or where it could be found, please post some info.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:07 AM

4. Non green car holders

My husband is Green Card holder who followed all the rules to come here as an adult - and whose parents followed all of the rules when they came here for 8 years with their kids in 1973.

We are watching and he agrees with Chris but thinks he missed a point . . . My husband got here a week before 9/11. To remain here LEGALLY he had to have biometrics, eyeball shots, finger prints etc etc.

From the perspective of a Green Card holder - those without are breaking the rules to stay here as a Resident Alien. Or as he says - you can't round people up - that's a horrific thought. But you can make them go through the same security measures everyone else had to go through that is a Resident Alien.

To quote - come out of the shadows you have amnesty from deportation by TODAY'S laws if you do.

It may soud like - eh? That's too big brother . . .

But Italian, Senegalese, Spanish, French, and South Korean immigrants we know and love, are related to, come into our home . . . That are Resident Aliens all had to do this in our Homeland Security world.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:58 AM

5. A little history can always help understand how we got here

At a time of heated and divisive debate over immigration, the new feature-length documentary, "Harvest of Empire," examines the direct connection between the long history of U.S. intervention in Latin America and the immigration crisis we face today.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/9/25/harvest_of_empire_new_film_recounts

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 11:28 AM

6. Well that's nice

I have this guy who entered my house without my permission. The only crime committed is the actual entrance to my house without the permission of the owner, and that's just a trivial little crime like speeding.

Ah crap, now I have six of them, and a couple people camping in my back yard.

And more just keep coming in, breaking the locks on the door and finding other ways to sneak in.

But hey, no problemo. The important thing is that I don't stoop to calling these people any sort of names that will hurt their feelings, or hurt the feeling of some of my neighbors who are more sympathetic to them than they are to me, for some reason (perhaps the color of my skin?)

Why should anyone complain anyway, since there are already plenty of good paying jobs for everybody in this country, as well as adequate housing and medical care?

No, their immigration was illegal. Making them an illegal immigrant, or an illegal for short. Every day they are here without permission is a new crime - a continuing crime, like somebody who drives through a residential neighborhood every day at 50 mph - an illegal driver. Permission of the US Government. That means permission of a majority of the US people, or it should.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 11:50 AM

10. equating entering the country without documentation with a home invasion...

...is beyond lame.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 01:09 PM

11. You'll get lot of flak for this

But you're correct to call out this line of reasoning.

By the same line of reasoning, George Bush committed election fraud, but it wasn't criminal for him to be President afterwards. Also, when took us to war illegally in Iraq, after that action everything he did there was fine until his next illegal action...and so on.

We have legal immigration. We have a LOTS of legal immigration. The fact that we are told to allow/encourage illegal immigration is not a service to ourselves or the immigrants, just like H-1B visas don't bring in better workers or better opportunities for said workers.

Sad that we still need slave labor in this day and age.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 11:29 AM

7. Plus it's a civil matter, not a criminal matter

No crime is committed, more like a tort or contract violation.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 11:38 AM

8. They have done something illegal. They are not, in their essense, illegal. No more than you or I

would be if we habitually exceed the speed limit and don't get caught. It is the difference between "doing" and "being" something. YOUR "illegal" actions do not make you "illegal" at your core.

"Undocumented Workers" works for me. And, they ARE WORKERS.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Original post)

Tue Oct 9, 2012, 05:27 AM

12. I think we're hearing this now mainly from the right...

But thanks for the reminder to pay more attention to the terms used by those who are asking us for our votes...

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