General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan someone explain to me the importance of the whole "Romney crib sheet" theory?
1. It was a handkerchief, at least as far as Rachel Maddow was concerned on her show last night.
2. Even if it wasn't, what's the argument here? That the President of the United States of America had a poor debate showing because Mitt Romney had a crib sheet?
Um...huh?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)that I would expect from a Freeper.
What we should be talking about is the offensiveness of people who are gnashing their teeth because of good economic news.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)...so much so that they will accept the wackiest of CT's to explain it away.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)but I do think that if Romney needed a cribsheet to keep his lies straight, AND violated the rules of the debate, it's sort of a big deal.
Rhiannon12866
(202,970 posts)And, for those of us who remember the bulge under Bush*'s jacket or Jim Bunning's bizarre remote debate, nothing seems farfetched.
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)I don't necessarily believe the conspiracy theory, but I do get the import of it.
Liar....lying liar....cheating lying liar.
MH1
(17,537 posts)with or without cheat notes at the debate.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)I posted this in another thread earlier, forgive me for C&P.
-------
I know there are many who think this is a big fat nothing issue, perhaps it is, perhaps it ain't but just the fact that we are even having this discussion proves a small point.
Mitt Romney and the Romney campaign has a problem defining Mitt Romney's character in a positive way. They've ALWAYS have had this problem! All the hard work they've done to define the public's perception of the Mitt Romney brand failed and is easily chipped away.
That so many people are questioning these actions proves to me that all the building-up of the shell aka Mitt Romney is on very shaky ground.
It's not about the CHEAT, it's the fact that we're questioning Mitt Romney's character.
-------
At least those are my honest thoughts and feelings.
That makes sense.
Thanks.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Even if they were notes, so? Its just another lame excuse for Obama I'm thinking.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)according to the rules of the debate. It doesn't excuse Obama's performance. It just puts a question mark over Romney's character.
Bush also cheated in one of his debates when he used an earpiece.
mazzarro
(3,450 posts)This whole thing has to make sense only to Rmoney and his campaign - and no one else! If Rmoney is someone that cannot hold contradicting ideas in his mind and simultaneously keep his argument for either one straight, then keeping a cheat-sheet is likely to help him in this regard. Rmoney has proven that he flounders around with all the contradictions he has woven around his campaign, so it won't surprise me if he needed a note to help out.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)A cheater and a liar. Very inelegant. Very republican.
budkin
(6,688 posts)Man up, admit you got your clock cleaned and do better next time
HipChick
(25,485 posts)you often have to be a cheating down liar, doing anything to close the deal...the only thing you care about is winning..no matter what it takes...I've spent a lot of time around these 1% folks for work, their biz dealings and ability to screw people over ...there is a narrative of Mitt's character to be held under the telescope here..
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Lucinda
(31,170 posts)sofa king
(10,857 posts)... then we must assume that he will also try to steal this election.
That is the significance to me. Mitt Romney is a sociopath unbound by ethics or prior agreement.
And now he's close enough to steal it.
RevStPatrick
(2,208 posts)It gives people something silly to be outraged about?
Is that the answer?
It's an "issue" that allows us to defend our tribe against the interloper, who would dare to challenge our tribal superiority?
Something like that?
It's yet another one of those things that the corporate media is using to create controversy in order to keep the race close so that their ad revenue doesn't dry up to the slow trickle that it should be if they were being honest about this race?
It that it?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Not the corporate media
booley
(3,855 posts)why would you need a crib sheet if you're going to just pull stuff out of your posterior?
I've argued with a lot of cons. they generally have very quick response times because they aren't wasting time making sure what they say is true.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)and I think that explains Obama's performance as well. How do you debate someone who just makes shit up that's the complete opposite of what he's been saying his entire campaign?
Obama got blindsided by all the lies. I betting it won't happen the next go round.
If Obama had spent the time necessary to contradict the lies, he would not have had time to make his points. So which do people want? Obama couldn't do both in the time allotted.
unblock
(51,974 posts)just quick reminders to make sure he hit all the points he wanted to hit.
or got in the lines he wanted to get in (like "... not entitled to your own facts"
liberal N proud
(60,298 posts)Jim__
(14,045 posts)I'm not saying he was cheating; but if he was that definitely has implications for anyone who's thinking about voting for him. And, yes, that could easily cause Obama to lose. In a debate where you have no notes, where everything has to come from your memory, a person with notes has a clear advantage. He doesn't have to concern himself with remembering details. They're right in front of him.
I heard Rachel ask that and I really couldn't believe that she didn't see the issue.
Lars39
(26,093 posts)And then handing the already been folded notes off to a son. Coupled with the pre-debate footage it all looks pretty skeevy.
warrior1
(12,325 posts)though I don't believe he had "notes"
If he did, it would because when you tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said. Lying takes skill and Romney may have succeed in making it seem like he won. In the short term, next day people where talking about Big Bird. People in the end want substance and the President gave it to us.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Rodney's entire debate was nothing but six tons of bullshit, so why would he need a cheat sheet? He's at the point where he doesn't even bother keeping the lies consistent. And for that reason, I'm in the handkerchief camp.
emulatorloo
(43,979 posts)If you are honest you don't have to worry about consistency.
unblock
(51,974 posts)it's a bit like saying "doesn't matter if tiger woods cheated; what's the argument, that the other guy went over par because tiger used steroids?"
Octafish
(55,745 posts)From history, "There you go again." Inspired, no doubt, by some trusted staffer who helped himself to Jimmy Carter's debate prep book.
RC
(25,592 posts)Romney is not bu$h. Stop thinking that he is. That is dangerous. He did not need so obviously a displayed a prop. When the "debate" was over and his son retrieved it(?), it was because it had been used (Mitt did wipe his face with it)and Mitt didn't want to deal with the soiled item any longer. The son most likely gave it to the help to wash.
Given Romney's arrogance, he probably prepped the preppers for the debate.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Romney moved his hand with the papers when the lectern blocked the audience and Lehrer from view.
If it was a hanky, IMFO, he wouldn't have gone to such pains to hide it.
As it stands, this clearly shows the guy's a cheating bastard in the tradition of the GOP.
As for Romney being Bush: While they're not the same person, they both serve the same interests.
polichick
(37,152 posts)...it shows exactly who Romney is. Period.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)They feel the rules only apply when they are convenient to them, and when they aren't, then they can skirt them, just this once.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)But you don't think it's a problem if one side continually cheats its way to "victory?"
I'm terribly sorry we're all annoying you so much this week, William.
emulatorloo
(43,979 posts)C'mon Will. Has nothing to do w Obama's not so great performance.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Alcohol may have been a factor.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)If Romney did have notes on the podium--that means he knowingly and deliberately violated the rules of the debate and cheated. And absolutely YES--that is important and newsworthy. It's historical news if it's true. He's denied it, so he would be cheating--then also lying.
Also, I don't think the cheating (having notes) has ANYTHING to do with Obama's lackluster debate performance. These are two entirely separate issues. I don't think Romney's cheating says one whit about Obama's performance. We're talking about completely separate issues here and I don't know why people are mixing these two points.
Lastly, this cheating issue is a dead issue unless someone wants to gather the evidence needed to make a definitive call on this. It can be done. We've certainly got the technology. Here is what we need:
---The full video shot behind of the candidates that ran the entire length of the debate.
------This video is needed for looking at the following: What happened to the "object" after he put it on the podium? Did he unfold it, look at it as if he was reading it? Does it appear that it was a hanky with paper wrapped in it. Does he ever unfold a folded paper at the podium? If so, that's the money shot right there, as there was no folded paper on the podium before he walked up to it.
The video is also needed to zoom in on the object. Can we see writing on it?
That's what is needed. If we don't have that video--we have absolutely nothing but conspiracy theory and a bunch of people suggesting that we are sore losers looking for a reason that Obama lost. We leave ourselves open for the right-wing to spin this in their favor.
So, if we can't get a hold of the video--then we need to drop it. For sure.
If someone does get a hold of that behind-the-podium video, and it does show strong evidence of cheating, then we need enhanced audio from after the debate.
It would also be helpful to get audio-enhanced video of the post-debate discussion, when Romney was in front of the podium with his family. This video is really quite compelling. Mitt walks to the podium, gathers his papers and re-joins his family. Ann looks at the papers in his hand and does a double take. You clearly see a jarring -- almost instantaneous -- difference in her manner and mood. She looks panicked. She says something like, "We need to get you off...stage...NOW!" but it is not clear. She seems to be moving everyone to action, when just seconds earlier she was chatting and lingering at the podium with her family. She also says something else to one of her sons, in the same hurried tone.
So---If someone can get a hold of the behind-the-podium video that was shot---and enhance the audio on the post-debate Romney social hour---you can answer all of these questions. If cheating did happen and you can find those things on the behind-the-podium video (unfolding paper, words on that paper, etc., video of Romney unfolding hanky and showing paper inside, etc.) then you've got him.
Without it---we have nothing and we need to let it go.
So far, I haven't heard anything about where this video is or who has it or if it still exists or ever existed (Does CSPAN have it?).
It's ridiculous for people to argue that we're suggesting that Romney cheated and therefore that explains why Obama did poorly. That is not what anyone is saying. Those two things (Romney cheating and Obama doing poorly) can exist in the same situation and can be unrelated.
We know Obama did poorly. I think we've all moved on from that. But we're just now realizing that Romney may have cheated. That is important--because it speaks to his character. Also, if he did cheat--that really makes that post-debate Romney family scene even more compelling. They were all (including Ann) conspiring to cover up the fact that he cheated. That's certainly newsworthy, now isn't it? If Kennedy, Nixon or George Bush had done this and was caught--we'd still be talking about that today.
I'm not saying we know the facts. The point is..we don't know--and it's important to find out the definitives with that video.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)with those who say everyone was wrong, and Obama actually had a great performance!
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)And yeah, I tend to be verbose on the computer. I type 90 wpm. I know, it's obnoxious.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)condensed my "War and Peace" down to three 'graphs.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)You summed up the situation really well.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)breaks away from the crowd on stage and hightails it back to the podium to collect his papers - and whatever was on them. It may well have been only notes he took during the debate. We will probably never know. However, he was clearly preoccupied with getting ahold of those papers, and, when he realized they wouldn't fit in his jacket inner pocket, he quickly handed them off to a son who didn't for a second hesitate before squirreling them away.
If there is a video of the entire debate taken from behind the podium, I would love to see it just to satisfy my own curiosity about the handkerchief - where it was before he used it and where it went afterward. There is a podium shot that looks to me like there was a little spiral notebook on the podium. I've never seen a handkerchief that looks like a spiral notebook.
At any rate, no denying Mittens is a liar. Wouldn't at all surprise me to learn he's a cheater too.
sad sally
(2,627 posts)for Mr. PBS Moderator, who was so cooperative, which he had son Tagg deliver.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)shows a folded piece of paper on his podium. It is folded more than once. It appears to have writing on it.
And you are absolutely correct that the issue of if Mittens cheated, does not change Obama not performing in the way we wanted him to. It would however explain where Mitt got all the number's he was throwing around.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)Otherwise, it'll remain as speculation pinging around the internet.
dooner
(1,217 posts)Can't figure out why character issue isn't obvious to everyone and can't figure out why people with access to all the video aren't just looking into it and putting hankygate to rest instead of acting outraged and/or ashamed that some people are wondering about it.
(But I don't really get what Mitt could possibly have written on any notes that would have been worth the risk.. (47%, 5 trillion?)
cilla4progress
(24,585 posts)#2 explains how he was able to spew so many factoids
#3 consistent with his lyin' cheatin' character - wouldn't put it past to him to cheat.
"That's all."
aandegoons
(473 posts)So far Romney has been caught in a lie a lot. Add to that the cheating during the debates, questions of his taxes, hiding his money overseas and dodging the draft it becomes a character flaw.
When you also factor in the biggest liar of all Ryan then it becomes a real issue to many. Romney becomes known as a person who is untrustworthy maybe even criminal. Even if he is not some will still see him as such.
The DNC is not trying to change the votes of die hard republicans. They are trying to change the votes of the few undecided and the republican lites.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)The threads with 100 recs about it here have fallen away, thankfully. Kos killed commenting on his site's piece, and it has fallen out of view. CBS DC's Bill Buck's article is being buried by negative comments even after he added a "nevermind" update, and despite an evident effort to delete such comments.
Embarrassing.
I wonder how many DUers were called trolls for expressing doubt or urging caution about the whole thing.
dooner
(1,217 posts)It's only embarrassing if used as an excuse for Obama's performance, which isn't what I saw happening. If one is asking the question because of genuine interest in learning more about Romney's character, then it's an important issue. It's also of broader "human interest" because I don't think half the country knows who/what to believe when they start talking numbers.
I think that publicly theorizing about altitude/whatever affected the President's performance is embarrassing because it sounds like one is making excuses.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Don't you know we are suppose to sit down and shut the fuck up. We wouldn't want those republicans to think bad of us.
So tired of everyone worrying about what those who wish to destroy the world thinks of us.
There was nothing wrong with speculating when we see something so fucking blatant. We were suppose to just say "shhhh! Republicans will be republicans. What harm can it do really?"
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)If Obama had won the debate hands down, I would still want to find out if Romney had cheated.
This is not about Obama or his debate performance, at all.
It's about Romney's character and if he did take folded up notes into the debate. Furthermore, if he did do this, he also tried to conceal it by returning to the podium after the debate and retrieving those materials. And also, Ann saw what was in his hand, and she did a double take, seemed to panic and then said, "We've got to get you off this stage!" I'd say it's big new if he did this!!!
I think this needs to be resolved under the table. Someone needs to get the video from CSPAN; the behind-the podium video that remained rolling throughout the debate.
It's not insane or sour grapes to ask questions about this.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)It spreaks to his character, which is a major issue in any election.
The idea that it has something to do with Obama's poor performance has nothing to do with it. I've seen here people saying that anyone who brings this up is trying to make "excuses" for Obama's poor performance. That is not the case at all.
I, for one, am very pissed off because this is the THIRD time these fuckers have cheated during a debate.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)I don't see how you don't get it. It has nothing to do with Obama. Obama could have knocked it out of the park and if we though Mitt had the audacity to cheat especially at such a forum, we would still be pointing it out and trying to find out the truth.
So far, everyone I have seen deny it, has failed to look closely at all of the footage and all of the closeups.
-Steph-
(409 posts)I don't think anyone is insinuating that somehow the President's performance was based on whether or not Mitt Romney had a cheat sheet. That wouldn't even make sense, as you pointed out. I think people are simply wondering what Mitt Romney pulled out of his pocket and unfolded, and why he was so quick to get rid of it after the debate, and was it against the rules?
I personally think it was likely a handkerchief and nothing more, but I could be wrong. And I certainly can't fault anyone for thinking it maybe looked suspicious, because it kind of did when it was coupled with the way he acted with the notes after the debate.
If it were indeed something against the rules such as notes, then I would definitely take issue with that, as would most.
On a side note, not all of us feel the President had a poor showing at the debate. While it wasn't perfect by any means, I wouldn't call it "poor". With all the initial media hype disappearing, I feel Romney came off much worse in that debate vs the President.
blue neen
(12,306 posts)It underscores the fact that no one really trusts Romney and the Republicans.
All the things that Republicans have done, particularly since stealing the election since 2000, means we just about expect them to lie, cheat, steal, fix, plunder, and do whatever they can to win.
He may or may not have cheated. It's the fact that Americans believe he's capable of it that's important.
Remember, this is a man who will not release his tax returns. As David Letterman said so well last night, we have a felon running for President.
-Steph-
(409 posts)It really does play into the bigger narrative that he's someone that can't be trusted, that he's capable of sinking to this kind of low, that it's plausible he would do something like this. It wouldn't seem like that far of a stretch, and that in and of itself is pretty significant.
blogslut
(37,955 posts)Maybe he needed notes to keep the whoppers straight.
*NOTE* I am not one of the folks who think RMoney used a cheat sheet. I do think he lied his ass off and bullied his way through that whole thing - while Obama just let him dig a deep, deep hole.
hockeynut57
(230 posts)crib sheet nor a hanky, but in fact a minturized etcn a sketch, developed in the caymans
Cha
(295,899 posts)retread
(3,752 posts)Magic Underwear.