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Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:30 AM

 

Free traders will never answer this... if immigrants are needed here...

why aren't Americans needed for jobs elsewhere?

Why are American workers unwanted outside or even IN AMERICA, but yet we're so eager to import workers?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/10/04/immigrants-needed/

Immigrants Needed
Adam Ozimek, Contributor

I wanted to quickly draw attention to two good posts on our need for high-skilled immigrants. The first is a great article from Noah Smith on why we need a huge amount of Asian immigration. Noah is good at thinking about immigration more broadly than typical economists, and this article is no exception:
East Asia, South Asia, and Southeast Asia together have over half the world’s population, but Asians make up only 5% of the United States. If our ethnic makeup was a portfolio of stocks, we would be severely underweight Asia.

Asia is important not just because it is huge, but because it is growing rapidly. Trade with these countries will be incredibly important to the American economy this century. One way to facilitate trade and investment is ethnic ties — witness the way the Chinese diaspora has invested in China, or the way Indian-American entrepreneurs have forged links between Silicon Valley and India. We need much more of this….

Furthermore, I believe that the cultural benefits of Asian immigration will be just as big as the economic and political benefits. Adding diversity to our melting pot will speed up America’s inevitable and necessary transition from a “nation of all European races” to a “nation of all races.” The sooner that happens — the sooner people realize that America’s multi-racialization is a done deal — the quicker our political debate can shed its current ethnic overtones and go back to being about the issues.



Here's an idea... if you want to send immigrants and H1b non-immigrant visa hunters to America, you take an equal amount of American workers in your country, or no deal.

If you want America to outsource jobs to you, then you outsource an equal number of jobs to us. Or we skip tariffs and go right to an embargo. Then you can go cry to the WTO.

Enough bullshit. Free trade has nothing to offer American workers except more joblessness.

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Reply Free traders will never answer this... if immigrants are needed here... (Original post)
Zalatix Oct 2012 OP
sharp_stick Oct 2012 #1
Orrex Oct 2012 #19
treestar Oct 2012 #2
Zalatix Oct 2012 #5
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Zalatix Oct 2012 #7
treestar Oct 2012 #13
kiva Oct 2012 #16
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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:36 AM

1. I guess it depends on the career

I'm a research scientist.

I've been offered jobs in Canada, Great Britain and Australia. I almost took the one in Australia, it was before we had kids but my wife didn't want to be so far away from her family.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #1)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:05 PM

19. Forgive me, but isn't it obvious that it depends on the career?

Insread of talking about the handful of jobs outsourced to the US, can we discuss the OP's point instead?

It's great that you have more opportunities than you know what to do with. Now let's concern ourselves instead with the 300 million or so for whom that's not the case.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:37 AM

2. They are

There are Americans who get jobs abroad.

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Response to treestar (Reply #2)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:49 AM

5. Very few. Nothing compared to those who come here.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:54 AM

6. That's how America developed though

We think of the Americas as a place people immigrate to not from. countries that get immigrants get them because they are doing well. Countries that aren't doing well lose people to countries that are. through the 19th and early 20th centuries, it was especially pronounced. I don't think we want to be a county people have to leave for a better life.

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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:58 AM

7. Who gives a shit, really? We have over 10 million unemployed here.

 

Where will they go to find work?

We're so eager to ship jobs out of here and import more competition for work, and we don't have enough jobs for the people who are here.

Where will our unemployed go to find work? Do you even care?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #7)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:38 AM

13. Maybe right now

We have our down times. Immigration did almost stop during the Depression.

But generally were we an engine of growing economy, so people came here.

We could invest in up and coming economies - as the richest nation on earth. Which is probably why Americans that go abroad do go abroad. The McDonald's and Walmarts you see abroad must have involved some Americans going there. Or staying here to do work that facilitates it.

I think you have blinders and a one track mind, and refuse to consider a larger picture under which things might not be so bad for us as you suppose.

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Response to treestar (Reply #13)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:43 AM

16. Immigration almost stopped during the 1930s

mostly because of a handful of extremely strict immigration laws passed in the 1920s. There were people deported, generally migrant workers so that Americans could do the work - think Grapes of Wrath - but the depression was world-wide and I suspect there would still have been immigrants coming here had it been allowed...the 'undesirable' Germans, for example.

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Response to treestar (Reply #13)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:00 PM

17. You're one to talk about a one-track mind. Take off your rose-colored glasses for a second.

 

"things might not be so bad for us as you suppose."

You can't possibly be serious. You must be trolling. You, who obviously are safe from losing your job to offshoring, actually made this comment?

In all your talk about free trade you RARELY if ever even mention the plight of American workers. I would say NEVER, but I'm sure that somewhere there might be ONE post where you did. Somewhere, if you dig far enough and interpret it generously enough. You don't care about the working class. You never have. You talk about the economy and how trade helps America but when the losses suffered by the working class is brought up, you don't ever want to talk about that.

And now you have the nerve to say "things might not be so bad for us as you suppose." Hello? Have you looked at the way in which our middle class has DECLINED? Oh yeah, I forgot, it was you who posted the remark about how it is the obligation of America's working class to get poorer to help other nations. What were your exact words: ah, yes, you said "Maybe as a nation we should lower our standards so the third world can do better".

Your exact words: you basically said American workers need MORE SUFFERING. Lower standards of living means more suffering. You can't translate that in any other way. You hate for me to bring that up, but you said it, so you own it. I once asked you what you would do if you lost your job to offshoring and you had nothing to say to that. Now I know why. You show a consistent pattern of indifference for America's working class.

Investing in up and coming economies will not produce jobs for America. We've done it already and it has done absolutely nothing but drive up our imports faster than our exports. Our "engine of a growing economy" is one in which 90% of the growth goes to the 1%. Why? Because they're hunting cheap labor overseas.

No country's working class ever prospers that sends out more jobs than they bring in. None.

Take off YOUR blinders and get to actually meet with America's working class. Unlearn your indifference toward them.

I don't know why you even bother to show up in a trade discussion considering how thoroughly the pro-offshoring position has been refuted and discredited by both scores of other DUers and history itself.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #17)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:15 PM

23. Will you quit with the personal shit and address the issue

I'm distracted by your insults and so won't respond to your post.

No one's job is really safe from offshoring, and if the job is purely local, people without jobs means there is no one to be your customer. A hair-dresser, say, might be safe from offshoring, but people without jobs save money by not getting their hair done.

Learn to control your emotions in the face of opposition.

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Response to treestar (Reply #23)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:21 PM

26. You started the emotional, personal attack crap with your "one-track mind" comment.

 

I will respond to your hypocrisy with a repost, since everything I said was the truth.

In fact, I will respond with this every time you bring up your hackneyed, erroneous comments. I will keep responding with this because I know I have exposed your arguments as being full of errors and totally lacking in compassion for American workers. It is a fact that in all your talk about free trade you RARELY if ever even mention the plight of American workers. You don't care about the working class. You never have. You talk about the economy and how trade helps America but when the losses suffered by the working class is brought up, you don't ever want to talk about that.

And now you have the nerve to say "things might not be so bad for us as you suppose." Hello? Have you looked at the way in which our middle class has DECLINED? Oh yeah, I forgot, it was you who posted the remark about how it is the obligation of America's working class to get poorer to help other nations. What were your exact words: ah, yes, you said "Maybe as a nation we should lower our standards so the third world can do better".

Your exact words: you basically said American workers need MORE SUFFERING. Lower standards of living means more suffering. You can't translate that in any other way. You hate for me to bring that up, but you said it, so you own it. I once asked you what you would do if you lost your job to offshoring and you had nothing to say to that. Now I know why. You show a consistent pattern of indifference for America's working class.

It is a fact: investing in up and coming economies will not produce jobs for America. We've done it already and it has done absolutely nothing but drive up our imports faster than our exports. Our "engine of a growing economy" is one in which 90% of the growth goes to the 1%. Why? Because they're hunting cheap labor overseas.

It is a fact: No country's working class ever prospers that sends out more jobs than they bring in. None.

Take off YOUR blinders and get to actually meet with America's working class. Unlearn your indifference toward them.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #26)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:34 PM

32. I'm not reading all that

You've been emotional on the board for months. Arguing over who started it is like trying to decide who started the troubles in Northern Ireland. Everybody claims to be the victim and yet was the perpetrator before.

I have always tried to be polite and make points and you end up trying even my patience with your emotional responses.

I have been called a "free trader" and "America hater" by you just for not seeing things exactly your way and in fact for merely questioning your assertions or trying to get you to expand your issues. You even try to call out us so called "free traders" in OP headlines.

so while the subject is interesting, it is you who generally drags it down into name calling.

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Response to treestar (Reply #32)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:43 PM

36. "Arguing over who started it"? In short, you can dish out the attacks but you can't take it.

 

If you accuse me of wearing blinders I will accuse you of wearing rose-colored glasses. Period. And you are in fact wearing rose-colored glasses.

You have been condescending and callous toward the working class for months. Your logic is tortured, your arguments have been soundly refuted by SCORES of people, and yes, you do believe in free trade, so you are a free trader. That is a fact. Don't act all offended about being called a free trader, just own it! Now if I called you a FREE TRAITOR then you'd have reason to complain.

And as for trying someone's patience? You've been trying mine with your endless pattern of evasions and outright indifference toward America's working class. So don't bother me with your "I'm trying your patience". If you can't handle the legions of people who have discredited your free trade views, then that's on you, and it's not going to stop. Look around you, support for free trade is IMPLODING. Nationwide.

Now I will get back to the subject at hand. You had the nerve to say "things might not be so bad for us as you suppose." Have you looked at the way in which our middle class has DECLINED? Oh yeah, I forgot, it was you who posted the remark about how it is the obligation of America's working class to get poorer to help other nations. What were your exact words: ah, yes, your exact words where "Maybe as a nation we should lower our standards so the third world can do better". You basically said American workers need MORE SUFFERING. Lower standards of living means more suffering. You can't translate that in any other way. You hate for me to bring that up, but you did say it. I once asked you what you would do if you lost your job to offshoring and you had nothing to say to that. Now I know why. You show a consistent pattern of indifference for America's working class.

Investing in up and coming economies will not produce jobs for America. We've done it already and it has done absolutely nothing but drive up our imports faster than our exports. Our "engine of a growing economy" is one in which 90% of the growth goes to the 1%. Why? Because they're hunting cheap labor overseas.

No country's working class ever prospers that sends out more jobs than they bring in. None.

You don't want to "read all that" because you know it's true and you have no counter argument. I hope this doesn't "try your patience"

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #36)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:53 PM

49. Emphatic DURec for posts # 17, 26, and 36 by Zalatix...

...for his beautiful deconstruction of the Pro-Free Trade Corporate Marketing that STILL persists at DU despite to overwhelming evidence to the contrary that exists on the streets of America.
Perhaps if these Pro-Free Traders spent a little time with actual Working Class Americans they would sing a different song.


"Free Trade" was and IS a SCAM designed by the Ownership Class (1%) to avoid
*Human Rights
*LABOR Rights
*and Environmental Protections
....in order to increase the flow of MONEY into their pockets.
They used smooth talking politicians to sell their SCAM to gullible Americans,
and they are STILL selling their scam today.


The Graven Image on the altar

of the Church of the Giant Invisible Hand


Sorry, Virginia,
but there is no Giant Invisible Hand
and no such thing as Free Trade or Free Markets.
The RICH made that shit up to get more money.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Response to treestar (Reply #23)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:16 PM

130. Let me ask you something. Since you apparently said this:

"Maybe as a nation we should lower our standards so the third world can do better".


which I find simply stunning frankly. But why should we not as a nation, RAISE the standards to those we used to have here for any Corporation that gets US tax breaks and/or subsidies using foreign labor? Why do we not insist that such Corporations MUST PAY a decent wage to foreign workers, that they must not hire children, and that the working conditions must meet OUR standards otherwise they will not only NOT receive any tax breaks, but will be fined, or otherwise punished as they would here, if they violate those standards??

The ONLY reason for the poor standards in Third World countries is because of the exploitation of predatory Corporations who have been aided and abetted by our own Government which has consistently refuse to hold them to decent standards for ALL workers they employ.

Unbelievable that anyone could think that we should LOWER ALL STANDARDS rather than RAISE ALL STANDARDS.

There have been bills introduced in Congress to do just that, to impose on Corps exporting American jobs, the same standards they would have to adhere to if they remained here.

I have run out of words frankly. Sometimes I lose all hope for this country and for this world when I see things like this, or when I saw the excellent bills dealing with this issue in Congress, get hardly any support at all.

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Response to treestar (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:01 AM

113. my neighbors across the street have a homeless encampment behind their back fence. the

 

richest nation on earth my ass. get real.

in my entire lifetime it's never been this bad.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #113)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:48 AM

119. That hardly means we are not the richest nation on earth

Statistics. They determine the overall situation and are based on studies that try to take everything into account as much as possible.

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Response to treestar (Reply #119)


Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:43 AM

15. Yea

I think of American with a massive number of unemployed people, because our government, sadly both sides of the aisle, seemed to willingly send them away. It's true that Democrats now have a slight conscience, as much as they can get away with without the corporate right and left crushing them, about it. They have at least tried to close the tax break down for moving away manufacturing companies.

Every time you hear of a town in crisis, just think about the 30 million good, manufacturing jobs we moved to the third world, voluntarily. Think about all the federal, state, sales, and gas taxes, as well as the property taxes, the tolls, the utility, cigarette, and alcohol taxes we no longer can collect from them.

Now we got a few extra sales clerk jobs, that get paid near, or minimum wage. In effect, our economic policies are very, very responsible for not collecting another trillion a year, from jobs we CHOSE to lose.

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Response to liberalmike27 (Reply #15)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:08 PM

20. All for cheaper prices

Of the junk we get from Walmart and the like.

And the thing is with China building up - that's not a place like 19th Century America - they already have plenty of people.

Our only hope is to be able to sell them something, but what would that be? They'd have to get to a point of prosperity on the same jobs that moved from us to them due to their working for less.

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Response to treestar (Reply #20)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:23 PM

27. We will never sell China more than they sell us. Please stop entertaining that fantasy.

 

China will go back to seriously manipulating their currency if it ever comes to that.

China will never run a trade deficit or allow things to reach parity with America. Not ever.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #27)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:54 PM

41. Bingo. I can't believe they still trot out that same canard about exporting our way out of this

At the present rate ( which shows no signs of even slowing down it's rate of imbalance, let alone arrest, much less reverse the trend ) of losing big on every deal made, there's simply no way we can make up for it in sheer volume. It's throwing away good money after bad. You're correct in that their own policy of being a mercantilist powerhouse will not be eroded by their own choice in that it works so well for them. There is no product, service, hell...even an idea that they'll have sold to themselves without them eventually producing it themselves; courtesy of US based multinationals selling them the rope to hang us all with.

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Response to treestar (Reply #20)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:00 PM

75. What would that be?

 

Few years ago I saw an interview of IIRC Clinton admin official, who said somewhat regrettingly that during that time US made strategic choice to concentrate to "export" immaterial "intellectual property" rights - patent rights, copyright income. To push WIPO intenationally, support corporate persecution of digital copying guilty of "theft without victim", etc. In other word, take capitalization of information further than ever. Which of course does not go well with freedom of information and Pirate Bay and Assange are parts and main symbols of that battle. Which is all about "follow the money".



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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 12:55 AM

107. That is a popular fiction. America developed because we stole some of the best real estate on earth.

 

The immigrant waves merely provided a surplus of cheap labor for the well connected to exploit so they could avoid paying domestic workers their due.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:41 AM

3. Millions of Americans do live and work outside the US

This estimate is about 4-6 million.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006050512986

The State Department estimates about 5 million.

https://www.overseasvotefoundation.org/files/counting%20american%20civilians%20abroad.pdf

Here are the most popular places for Americans to live;

http://www.mybadpad.com/fun-stuff/the-7-most-american-places-outside-us

edited to add

I had three careers overseas and lived abroad for 20 years returning only so that my children could have their education here and feel at home here. Will work here a couple of more years and retire abroad.

Its not easy, but lots of people do it.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #3)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:59 AM

8. We have over 10 million unemployed here in America.

 

That's far larger than that 6 million highball figure.

Where can our 10 million jobless go? Can you imagine how fast the nations you listed would close their borders if we let our unemployed go abroad for work?

Every last one of those nations on your Top 7 list have STRICTER immigration policies than we do. Every last one.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #8)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:38 AM

14. your OP isn't about 10 million jobless its about a zenophobic and hate filled rant against

other countries.

I don't waste time with that kind of attitude.

Here is your statement



why aren't Americans needed for jobs elsewhere?

Why are American workers unwanted outside or even IN AMERICA, but yet we're so eager to import workers?



It is a statement that is ignorant of the facts.

Now that you have the facts you want to change the premise.

Maybe you can find someone else to waste their time with this kind of BS.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #14)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:05 PM

18. My post is NOT xenophobic. Your dishonest post shows a total CONTEMPT for American workers.

 

My statement is also NOT ignorant of the facts. You don't have any facts to back up anything you said.


Wait, you didn't actually say anything. Because you've got nothing.

We've got 10 million unemployed here. FACT. No error.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #14)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:26 PM

28. Seriously, fuck calling people xenophobic for looking out for US jobs. nt

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Response to grantcart (Reply #14)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 01:50 PM

155. I have a problem with this post

My father was a drywaller, one of those professions that "Americans don't want to work." Thing, he was a proud union member who enjoyed his job and the financial resources it provided for him to raise his family. Then, in the 1980's his profession was flooded with illegal immigrants. Union company after union company was busted. His wages dropped year after year. Friends of his lost their job because they couldn't afford the pay cuts and they ended up losing everything. My family spent years worried about if we would have a house next month. I clearly remember my mother making mac and cheese for dinner every night and making our clothes.

Then, 10 years later, after wages dropped through the floor, people arrogantly claimed, "the immigrants work the jobs Americans won't." I call bull fucking shit on this. We allowed them to destroy the profession Grapes of Wrath style and THEN claimed we need illegal immigrants for their jobs.

I am a proud Democrat. Sadly, after feeling like he got fucked over by the Democratic party, my father refuses to vote for a Democrat. I continue to try and get him to change his stubborn ways, while also trying to debunk this bullshit view that destroys our working class.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #8)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:13 PM

21. But but

 

wait those are jobs that Americans won't do haven't you heard. Or they are just trying to make a living and feed their family's. Well I'll be dipped in dog shit isn't that what the 10 million Americans that are unemployed are trying to do?

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Response to Berserker (Reply #21)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:17 PM

24. XENOPHOBE!!!

 



Xenophobia (Free Trade Dictionary), n: being concerned about the plight of America's working class.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #24)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:07 PM

73. Yup. K&R You are SO on a roll with this thread.

Preach it.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #73)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:12 PM

74. I stand on the shoulders of giants. LOTS of DUers have helped me get informed on this issue.

 

And LOTS of DUers, like you, are helping to give the free traders what for. That's the most important thing of all!

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:49 AM

4. I don't consider immigration a free trade issue

I am not a free trade fanatic but I think you would identify me as a free trader.

But there is nothing in my conception of free trade that requires importing labor.

Such importation should be pegged to unemployment. Unless we are at full employment there probably shouldn't be any immigration at all.

At full employment (as defined by the Fed) some importation of labor makes sense for economic reasons, but I don't expect to see full employment in the US for decades, if ever again.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:06 AM

9. What about undocumented immigration?

Honest question.

I could see your post being exploited by some "build the border fence!" types even if that is not your intent.

EDIT -- and when unemployment goes up should deportations (documented and otherwise) increase?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #9)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:15 AM

10. The problem with a fence is not that it is unjust, it is

that it is creepy and ineffective.

Ideally, we should have no unauthorized immigration. As with many things, however, perfect enforcement would degrade life in other ways making it bad policy overall, and a border fence is in that category.

As policy, however, we shouldn't be more or less lenient based on the economy because unauthorized immigration should never be an economic policy tool.

If the jobs market was so strong that the domestic economy cannot create more businesses without sparking a very high level of inflation (a scenario we may never see again) then a government might decide that it is in the national interest to increase the number of documented laborers admitted.

That said, in the real world bad economies increase political pressure for immigration enforcement, so there is a real-world correlation.

But as formal policy it would not be a good thing, in my view.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #10)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:16 AM

11. Other nations have stricter immigration laws than we do.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #11)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:37 AM

12. And they are welcome to

I don't think we should be importing labor in a domestic jobs crisis so I am not arguing for loose immigration at all.

I can create an economic hypothetical where labor importation is desirable for the national good, but that hypothetical doesn't look anything like America today.

I think the economy is supposed to produce wages.

Comparative advantage is powerful and real in its ability to increase the standard of living on both sides of the equation. When policy prevents that outcome then the policy is flawed.

My support of free trade is limited to practical effects. It is not idealogical.

My support for capitalism is the same. Its only justification is that it works, so if it isn't working it has to be changed so that it does work, or replaced.

Practical, not idealogical.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:15 PM

22. Before we talk immigration

 

let's remember that US population is 5% of the world and it consumes 20-25% of global resources - how does it do that? Let's remember the colonial and neocolonial structures and policies that dislocate people from their roots and drive them to seek livelihood where the fruits of their land are taken, to die trying to cross the border, to work in the unhealthy and dangerous and degrading illegal slave jobs at plantations at sweat shops that no American citizen wants to do.

10 000 people drowned at the bottom of Mediterranean, trying to cross to Fortress Europe. They all had hopes, families, friends, relatives.

Neoliberal "free trade" is freedom for capital, jail and death for people. What is more stupid than people denied freedom of movement, jailed inside borders of feudal states, competing against each other for JOBS to get fewer and fewer crumbs from capitalist table? Who made that table, who are filling it with all the treats from world?

People don't need more wage slave jobs. People need democratic control of means of production.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:19 PM

25. Millions, yes you read write, millions

Of Americans live and work outside the US.

There is more, bringing in skilled labor is not just an American phenom, ever looked at Canada? Yes, Canada...and it's immigration policies? That is but one example. Conflating free trade agreements and their ills with immigration, and yes emigration, is rarely a good thing.

This is xenophobia pure and simple.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #25)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:32 PM

30. Canada requires you to have a job to move there. They don't need a job to move here.

 

Also, you have to have about $11,000 in assets to move there. Not so much to move here. I know, my wife and I seriously looked into going there.

We have 10-12 million jobless people here. That's TWICE as many Americans who work abroad. TWICE as many. If all those people tried to leave, nations would close their borders to us. They already have some... interesting barriers... to immigration, that are more strict than our barriers to immigration.

Did you know that some countries don't consider you a citizen just for being born there?

Care to take back that "Xenophobia" comment? Other nations are much more xenophobic than we are.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #30)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:39 PM

34. Really, have you ever tried to get a green card?

Here is a hint. Dad applied on the POLISH QUOTA in 1973. It took all the way to 1984 and he had to have assets so he would not be dependent on the state.

Brother came through one of your dreaded visas, as a doctor...with the job lined up. He was requested by the Clinic. Oh sorry, he is one of those greedy bastards that does not accept insurance, because the Clinic does that.

Methinks you really have no clue, nothing personal. In this you remind me of the xenophobia explosions we get, predictably, when economic times are bad. I am sure you'd love to throw me, and millions of others, back where we came from. Like oh wait, the 1930s, when we deported even American born citizens because they were the other.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #34)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:45 PM

37. How does that compare to being poor and moving to Canada? Or Mexico? Or China? Or... Poland?

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #37)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:52 PM

40. Now that you mention it I could move back to any EU country

I just pointed to you the legal requirements.

You need a sponsor. Or you need money, or you need to have a job lined up. Countries also require language competency.

This is the same way around the word. The US is not less strict than Canada for LEGAL NON REFUGEE STATUS IMMIGRATION.

Refugees, the rules change, driven by international treaty.

And that has also increased as the US, for example, is taking in I think 100,000 Iraquis. The rules and conditions at camps and intake centers are driven by international treaty law.

Don't worry, since many Iraqui doctors lost all papers, they are stuck driving taxis in these parts.

Then you have the non legal immigration, that is what is directly, not any degree of separation, tied to globalization.

Now I expect you to move goal posts around again.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #30)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:02 PM

58. You may not be a 'xenophobe' but the term gets thrown around for good reason.

First of all, Canada's immigration laws are strict but they allow 2 1/2 times more immigrants per capita than the US. How do you figure that Canada's immigration barriers "are more strict than our barriers to immigration" when they allow in so many more than we do given the size of their population. We must have a few "interesting barriers" of our own since we let in immigrants at less than half the rate Canada does.

If someone is concerned for American workers and argues for a higher minimum wage, better legislation to empower unions, a stronger safety net, more progressive taxation, etc., such a person could not rightly be accused of xenophobia, racism or anything of the sort.

If someone was concerned for American workers and went on to blame Jews, women or Blacks for the plight of the American worker, guess what? The terms anti-semitic, misogynist and racist might well be added to the mix even if the source claimed to be none of those things.

But you say, "I'm not blaming Jews, women or Blacks because they can all be Americans and I am not a racist, misogynist or anti-semitic. I'm blaming foreigners regardless of race, gender or religion."

Exactly.

(And the fact that some one or some country is more xenophobic than you are or we are, does not let you or me off the hook. Should we compare ourselves to the xenophobes, racists and misogynists in the world or to the progressive, multiculturalists.)

For right-wing populism, a variant of racism ... will do the trick ... But given for the contemporary left and its complicated relationship to diversity (that pesky conundrum resulting from the dual demands of equality and representation), clear cut racism is no longer an option and neither is a classic xenophobia necessarily related to race, ethnicity or even religion.

For left-wing populism in the era of identity politics, the contortions are more and more demanding. But xenophobia is a pliable concept. ... The fact that xenophobia can accommodate huge variations of nature and intensity is a useful resource for populist movements. This means that ‘the other’ can be expanded to mean just about anything: the elite of course, liberals and intellectuals who favour the complexity of diversity, the ‘traitors amongst us’, but also foreign powers (the EU, the US, China).

But, broadly speaking, these fall into three distinct camps: the Strictly Populists, the Demagogues and the Democratic Activists. The first group is toxic and dangerous, the second is regrettable, the third is a necessary by-product of mass, democratic politics with which we can all live. It is a fundamentally different political animal.

The Strictly Populists include the movements and parties who fit all three initial criteria and whose xenophobia – however couched – is well in evidence. The Marine Le Pens, the Geert Wilders, the Tea Party activists ... All of them have refined their xenophobia by moving it away from outright racism. But their appeal is to those people who not only feel they have been cheated by a system that privileges elites of all sorts whilst abandoning them to a mediocre existence, but for whom solutions are to be found in an increasingly closed model of society that can privilege them, protect them, as the ordinary, true people - the keepers of the national flame. A closed model of society and politics is foundational to this strand of populism.

The demagogues are a kind of ‘populism lite’. Jean-Luc Mélenchon is a prime example. Anti-elitist but erudite, frank but astute, his rhetoric is nevertheless neither simplistic nor does it come across as common sense. Indeed listening to Mélenchon is a lot like listening to Chomsky or the ghost of Durkheim. References to Bretton Woods, Huntington and Fukuyama abound, and the role of the United States is consistently highlighted as the engine of the current crisis. The anti-globalisation rhetoric sails very close to the wind of xenophobia, but manages not to fall into the trap.

The Democratic Activists: Here we find Occupy and the Indignados, but also the rhetoric of any talented politician or political activist in an era of mass democracy and media driven politics. Those whose explicit use of the concept of accountability (rhetorically and in practice) de facto creates an ‘air de famille’ with populism, but who don’t rely on exclusion or any form of xenophobia to drive the project: those whose vision might encompass enemies, but whose aspirations belong to an open society, mindful of diversity. ... The language of anti-corruption and democratic accountability differs substantially, in that it targets specific laws and specific members of the elite. It is not anti-elitist per se. And in all these points it differs markedly from a populist movement.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/catherine-fieschi/plague-on-both-your-populisms

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Response to pampango (Reply #58)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:06 PM

59. Like I said before, fine, bring 'em in, it's not like we have any jobs.

 

What'll they do when they get here?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #30)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 09:09 PM

87. Are you a truck driver? Are you willing to live in the middle of rural Canada?

The company that I used to work with received some items on a regular basis from Canada. Many of their drivers were immigrants from Eastern Europe that did not speak English well. I am certain that these companies would be willing to hire American truck drivers and help them get residency. I know longer work for that company but maybe I could try to connect you.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #25)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:33 PM

31. Bullshit

I know you've worked like, literally, every job in the world, so it's probably crazy for me to question your expertise. But so long as undocumented workers in the US are exploited and held by modern day slavers disguised as "employers," then there IS NO separating immigration from the destructive and wide-ranging war against workers the free traders are engaged in.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #31)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:41 PM

35. Again you are conflating above board legal immigration

With the Ilegal one even encouraged by Tyson Foods in recruitment drives in Guadalajara, for example.

You want to talk about that? Sure, let's talk about that, since that is fully tied up with NAFTA.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 01:02 AM

108. Less than 2 million. There are more Canadian citizens working in the U.S. than U.S. citizens

 

working in the rest of the world combined.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #108)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 01:42 AM

111. Not according to state

for the record, and that is globalization, i expect that to accelerate.

We have what I call the Management "creative" class...and it is not just American

I use quotations for a reason

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #111)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:44 AM

121. What is, according to State, the number? I got mine from tax records (IRS). n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #121)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 09:30 AM

124. 4-6 millions

It includes retirees

and it is not exact because not everybody who lives abroad registers with the embassy

my aunt, may she rest in peace is a good example. She was born in the states, grew up in Mexico, and did not bother with the embassy until she was in her forties

yup, she moved to the States in her fifties

There are millions like her

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:31 PM

29. Speaking as a foreigner who lives in the U.S. and hires people from all over the world for jobs

throughout the world, rightly or wrongly many foreigners think Americans are not as flexible to live and work abroad as others. In other words, many see Americans as insular, not flexible enough, not well versed in foreign languages and cultures, etc.

I have personally known American managers who worked in Italy and couldn't get used to... Italian food. One of these managers lasted all of 6 months, always eating at McDonald's while in Italy, not bothering to explore or learn about the local culture or eat the food (since it didn't fit his notions of 'Italian food'). The two others didn't renew their contracts after one year. Same story - essentially - as above.

Immigration requires some sort of adaptation to the local customs, environment and culture. It isn't simply a matter of transporting labor from one locale to the other. People don't live to work - they work to live, to use that overused concept.

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Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #29)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:36 PM

33. Oh my goodness

Isn't Italy the best place in the world to eat?

How popular are Italian restaurants? At least where I live they are all over the place.

That's narrow minded in the extreme!

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Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #29)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:45 PM

38. I would not mind

Of course my only problem in Italy, and after that very flexible, would be pasta and bread. (Food allergy). Alas that s not all there is to Italian food. Polenta is fine, actually very tasty.

But you are correct in that.

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Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #29)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:50 PM

39. Oh boy.

 

About 7 or so years ago I used to live next to both a neighborhood that was predominantly Mexican and another that was Vietnamese by majority. How did I know that? Because when I drive through there you could see Vietnamese and Spanish signs everywhere.

God, I can't believe I dread pointing this out... you walk into those stores and it was very difficult to find someone who could speak English. It's the truth, yet someone is bound to call it xenophobic.

I wouldn't dare try to be an American, moving to Italy, not learn the language, and huddle in an American enclave. I can't imagine they'd tolerate much of that. But we tolerate that here, as we should. We have countless such neighborhoods in America - Spanish, Russian, Vietnamese, you name it. They're as slow to assimilate here, as citizens, than those American managers you spoke of in Italy.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #39)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:55 PM

42. There are reams of books on immigration patterns

Tell me what happened to the famous Zeitung paper in New York, and the Ydish papers?

Oh and I forgot, there is an American school in Mexico City, and expat colonies in Guadalajara and sundry of other places, as well as stores that specialize in American goods and places where the locals have to learn English.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #42)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:11 PM

43. Jesus, I'm going to faint.

 

Locals have to learn ENGLISH to support (relatively, to their standards) rich American ex-pats?

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

If I go to work and live in Mexico I expect to learn Spanish and assimilate. No wonder people hate us abroad so much. We have so little respect for them that we have them catering to us on their land. That's just... well... sheesh.

I'll reiterate... we have 10 million unemployed here. Our immigration rates VASTLY outpace our emigration rates. But when I say it's a shame that Canada makes immigrants show $11,000 in assets, have a good job and they won't take people with certain (read: a wide variety of) medical histories, I would not consider it a shame that you should learn French if you move to Quebec. You move to Rome, you learn to do like the Romans do.

I find it funny that you accuse me of xenophobia when I hate Americans shoving their way around the world almost as much as I hate offshoring. Go to another country, accept their culture. Period.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #43)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:16 PM

44. Sorry, I forgot the German colony

Reams and reams of papers on immigration patters.

Not just in the US

Others who have integrated but preserve aspects of culture in second and third generation, like the US.

Chinese, Italian, Jewish (multiple European countries) French, some Japanese, second and third gen Americans, Spanish (Civil War)

Yup, same pattern...so what happened to the famous Ydish papers in New York, the same thing it happened to thm in Mexico City.

I am sorry you are so hard nosed and ignorant, but patterns of immigration have been noted and described in academic papers for decades now.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #44)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:21 PM

45. I just want parity between us looking for jobs "over there" and them looking for jobs here.

 

You can hardly call me xenophobic when our immigration rate far exceeds our emigration rate, and we also have 10 million people without jobs here and someone is calling for more competition to come here to compete for work.

Bringing in more people when you have 10 million out of work has real, negative consequences. Ignoring them and just screaming "Xenophobia" doesn't make those real problems go away.

What are we going to do for America's working class while we bring in more people and depress wages in the process? We're bringing in those people for one reason: to lower wages.

Meanwhile, who's even going to take our 10 million poor, hungry, destitute?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #45)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:30 PM

48. That is the US, by tradition we have been a nation

Of immigrants since Jamestown.

One more free clue, without immigration the US would see negative population growth rates and an aging population, see Japan for an example of what that looks like.

What you want is to change the nature of the country, that ain't gonna happen.

As to jobs, again you are conflating immigration, legal again, with immigration, Ilegal, which is tied to globalization, as well as slavery and white trade, uggly under bellies of this.

And you want parity, you tell me, you think uncle joe who, like most Americans, does not own a passport will want to go work in that strange furiegner land? This is changing as the new crop of immigrants are more cosmopolitan, but serious, that won't change for a generation at least. Now if we have a good old hot civil war, you will see population shifts and yes, refugee driven emigration, worst case scenario.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #48)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:53 PM

50. You know what, fuck it, let them come. There's no jobs but let 'em come.

 

Not sure what the immigrants will do when they get here. Either be unemployed or put existing citizens out of work. I may not see the shades of gray that you want me to see but I do see the math: in an economy where population growth is laughably outpacing job growth, importing people either legally or illegally is going to do absolutely nothing create a tighter job market and lower wages. The math dictates this.

I will bow out of this and as things get worse I will just say I told ya so.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #50)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:59 PM

52. You can bow all you want

but the math is simple but different from what you are seeing, what is driving salaries down is not so much LEGAL immigration, but like slavery in the good ol' days ILEGAL immigration, This is why your apples and pears and peaches and lettuce are so damn cheap.

Anybody who is actually a student fo this KNOWS THIS. And there is no way American workers, no matter how desperate, will pick peaches for the wages offered in Georgia or California. Proof of concept, the problems getting the crop this year, after they scared the illegals away.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/07/26/picker-shortage-costing-yuba-farmers-as-peaches-rot/

It is not me saying this, it is the facts on the ground.

I wish they were different, but you are willing to pay $10.00 \pound? And that would meet barely, minimum. Let's not even talk of working conditions.

Also you are so worried about workers, yes AMERICAN WORKERS? What the hell are you doing to support WALMART warehouse employees. Only difference from their working conditions and yes, CHINA, are lack of guard towers and barbed wire. Ok the pay is better than China, but when you do the math, it does NOT even reach minimum wage... and working conditions are horrible.

Let's start there.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #52)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:10 PM

60. I don't think our peaches will go to $10 a pound

 

And it seems to me like immigration is slowing down

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-4470491.html

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/22/161604484/u-s-border-industry-grows-as-immigration-slows

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20463744/pew-study-mexican-immigration-u-s-down-sharply

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/23/11356986-mexican-immigration-to-us-at-a-standstill-report-says?lite

And it's not because of more enforcement. Immigration is down across the board, legal or illegal. It's because we have no jobs.

It was the biggest sustained drop in modern history, believed to be surpassed in scale only by losses in the Mexican-born U.S. population during the Great Depression.

I believe you mentioned this happening during the last Depression?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #60)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:38 PM

79. What also happened in the last depression was...

people who were US Natiionals of Mexican decent, were thrown to Mexico because of the pervasive xenophobia

http://calstate.fullerton.edu/news/2005/valenciana.html

http://www.laits.utexas.edu/onda_latina/program?sernum=000536937&term=

This environment is not new... like clockwork it repeats itself

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #79)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:45 PM

80. Well, this time around the problem is a total lack of jobs.

 

We've shipped a ton of jobs to Mexico, why not go back? That's where the work is.

If I were an unemployed American, I'd move across the border to get a job if I could.

Edit: I just don't get it... we don't have any jobs here. We've got 10 million people looking for work. How does adding more people NOT increase the competition for jobs? I can't make the math work out the way you keep saying it does. More people means more competition and lower wages. There's no escaping that. How can you say it doesn't work that way?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #80)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 11:22 AM

81. How incredibly ignorant can you be

The people who are coming to the US are coming from places in Chiapas and Oaxaca. They are NOT factory workers, they are AGRICULTURAL workers.

You really have no clue of what you speak.

And what you do not get and apparently are too thick to understand, sorry for putting in those terms is that a job picking lettuce (which Americans DID NOT take this past summer), is not the same as a job laying brick, or a job putting down concrete, or a lab tech.

I could go on. Many of our unemployed are NOT manual workers, nor do they wish to be manual workers. Many of our illegals ARE manual workers and are not qualitfied to do anything else (not that bricklaying is not a skill, it is mind you).

The clash comes with a few technical fields, see IT. And in some construction jobs... the last one is truly regional.

But hey. If you cannot understand this, I can't help you.

If you think it is just 10 million workers, that is part of the problem... you really have no understanding of the mix of people who are unemployed, Mind you, many, not all, not even the majority, are also manual workers, but they refused to take the back breaking agricultural jobs that once were common for people when times were tough... and if you have ever worked in the fields, you will even understand why they refused. Moreover, even better pay than usually is paid to agricultural workers was not enough to retain them for the picking season.

Yup, you do not understand because you are not willing to dig into causes and reasons for this. You want simple solutions, Alas, none of this is simple.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #81)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 01:51 PM

84. Okay, hold, stop. Now YOU are the one who is ignorant.

 

You said:
They are NOT factory workers, they are AGRICULTURAL workers.


That is flat out wrong. That is a statement that could only be written out of sheer, alarming ignorance.

History says:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/15/us-usa-immigration-raid-idUSN1543286320070515
The class-action lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Boston on behalf of 500 workers, follows a raid by federal immigration agents on March 6 that drew criticism of the Bush administration's immigration policy and brought national attention to the perils facing undocumented workers.

Dozens of children were stranded when 361 workers at Michael Bianco Inc., which makes equipment and apparel for the U.S. military, were arrested by federal agents in New Bedford, a port city about 55 miles south of Boston.

Many of the immigrants were initially held at a decommissioned Army base in Massachusetts before being flown to Texas.

The case, separate to a lawsuit filed in March by the arrested immigrants against the U.S. government, accuses Michael Bianco Inc. of setting up a fictional company, Front Line Defense, to pay employees who had worked overtime.


http://www.organicconsumers.org/irrad/slaughterworkers.cfm
In the 1930s, unionization swept through the meatpacking industry, and for decades meat jobs were well paid, came with health insurance and led to stable communities. But that has all changed, according to Eric Schlosser, author of "Fast Food Nation," published by Houghton Mifflin.

The industry has consolidated and moved its factories from the city to the U.S. High Plains. In the late 1970s, the top four beef companies controlled about 20 percent of the market; now they control more than 80 percent, Schlosser said. A return to poor working conditions in this period is not only bad for laborers but ultimately dangerous to consumers, he added.

In 1995, Schlosser, an Atlantic Monthly correspondent, wrote a story about Latin American migrant strawberry laborers in California. Rolling Stone magazine editors read it and asked him to write about fast food in the United States, leading to his new book, which spent six week under review in Houghton Mifflin's legal department before publication.

On arriving in meatpacking towns, Schlosser would meet with migrant workers from Mexico and Guatemala. Many of them were illiterate in English or Spanish, which made it hard for them to work together or organize to make conditions better, he said.


http://www.polarisproject.org/human-trafficking/labor-trafficking-in-the-us/factories
Labor trafficking in manufacturing has been known to occur in the garment industry and in food processing plants in the United States. Victims, both men and women, have been forced to work 10-12 hour days, 6-7 days per week with little or no break time. People may be trafficked into garment industry jobs such as sewing, assembling, pressing, or packing apparel. Others may be forced to work in food processing operations that include slaughtering, preserving, canning and packing goods for distribution. Immigrant workers, both documented and undocumented, are often recruited into these industries. Some documented immigrants include H-2B visa holders who arrive in the U.S. to perform non-agricultural labor or temporary services.

Several workers paid large fees to labor recruiters who brought them to the U.S. with falsified documents. When the workers arrived in the U.S., they learned that their debts had increased and that they had to work at a canning plant in a small, rural town in Kansas to pay the debt. The recruiters required that the workers live in overcrowded conditions in housing that they provided. Because of its isolated location the workers had to rely on the recruiters for food and basic supplies. The recruiters took the majority of the workers’ paychecks, claiming that the money went to their debt, housing and food.

-----------------------

Immigration Status – Traffickers often use threats of deportation and document confiscation to maintain control over foreign national workers in the production industry. H-2B workers, (temporary immigrant workers) are particularly vulnerable because their legal status in the United States is tied to their employment, and because they often have extended families in their home countries who depend on their wages. Traffickers impose hefty debts to immigrant workers for job recruitment fees, transportation costs and visa processing. Additionally, traffickers prey on immigrant workers’ unfamiliarity with the language, laws and customs of the U.S. to further manipulate or exploit them.

I thought I'd highlight that H-2B part just in case we're unclear on whether or not these are LEGAL IMMIGRANTS being exploited in U.S. factories. Something you clearly and unambiguously said doesn't happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us/22immig.html?pagewanted=all
Like many places across the United States, this factory town in eastern Tennessee has been transformed in the last decade by the arrival of Hispanic immigrants, many of whom are in this country illegally. Thousands of workers like Mr. López settled in Morristown, taking the lowest-paying elbow-grease jobs, some hazardous, in chicken plants and furniture factories.


Now we get to the REAL reason why corporations and their lackeys keep pushing for more immigrants: companies can scare the illegal immigrants into not fighting for their rights, while legal immigrants can be scared into losing their jobs and being a thousand miles away from home and family.

It worked SPLENDIDLY in the meat packing industry, as you clearly see. I'm sure the organicconsumers people, collectively, know as much about this as you or me. As for you saying They are NOT factory workers, uh, YES, some of them in fact are. I've got a cite from the New York Times that says that.

And then there is this:
http://www.incite-national.org/index.php?s=123

Today, the overwhelming majority of garment workers in the U.S. are immigrant women. They typically toil 60 - 80 hours a week in front of their machines, often without minimum wage or overtime pay. In fact, the Department of Labor estimates that more than half of the country's 22,000 sewing shops violate minimum wage and overtime laws. Many of these workers labor in dangerous conditions including blocked fire exits, unsanitary bathrooms, and poor ventilation. Government surveys reveal that 75% of U.S. garment shops violate safety and health laws. In addition, workers commonly face verbal and physical abuse and are intimidated from speaking out, fearing job loss or deportation.

Sounds like immigrants are hired in factory jobs to me. Textile factories, in fact. I dunno about you, but I trust a cite from a source like this.

which Americans DID NOT take this past summer

You're putting the cart before the horse here. Americans don't take these jobs because they're incredibly, unnecessarily dangerous. They're so dangerous because employers have been using immigrants who won't fight back for better working conditions.

So, basically, when we're talking about bringing in more immigrants, it is exactly as I said it was. It's done to depress wages AND to help employers neglect their duties in maintaining workplace safety - a combination of which is guaranteed to drive American citizens out of the workplace. You're seeing no Americans in these workplaces because they were driven out long ago by a onset of both crappy wages and a needlessly deadly work environment. On the farms, in factories, in textiles, you name it. And if they could get away with replacing American workers in construction, they'd do it... and dear God, they've tried to do just that. They are also trying to replace American workers with immigrants and non-immigrant visa holders in IT, but thank God the Government has clamped down on that. The companies have failed, but not for lack of trying.

I make you a promise you can take to the bank - if we import a million high-tech immigrants, employers will drive their wage down and their working conditions will become horrendous in comparison to what you see in American IT workplaces now. And if their English is poor, on top of that? Conditions will be even worse. This has happened in every industry they've hired large numbers of immigrants into.

I'm not sure why I need to inform you, of all people, of the pattern of reduced pay, abuse and neglect that follows any workplace that hires large numbers of immigrants. I'm not sure why you don't see how this would drive American workers out of that workplace, or that industry. I'm certainly not sure why you're attacking me because of YOUR ignorance of these basic facts.

You know, there's one other thing, too. I've seen many of your posts, and I'm surprised your solution to this was not to UNIONIZE IMMIGRANTS. I'm not sure why you didn't mention this, but now I most certainly will. We need another Caesar Chavez who will organize the immigrants in a fight to put an end to these abuses. Employers have no moral right to do this to their workers, immigrant or otherwise.

If immigrants unionize and if they win their struggle, no employer will be able to get away with their abuses. And Americans will seek out those jobs as they did before. I'm not sure how you don't see that. But then, you also said immigrants don't work in factories, and I've got a cite that shows 80% of garment factory workers are in fact immigrant women. Then there's the furniture factories. And probably many others.

Yes, I know you'll respond to this with more "YOU'RE IGNORANT! YOU'RE STUPID!!!" but hey, the cites support me and oppose you. And nothing you say will refute that.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #85)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:06 PM

88. No comments about immigrants unionizing? No comments about immigrant factory workers?

 

Nobody said you haven't dealt with this population at all. What I am saying is that you said immigrants don't work in factories. That was clearly, demonstrably wrong.

You're sitting there expecting me to not point that out. Sorry, but it ain't that kind of party.

Your argument is that when the immigrants leave, farm businesses will suffer. I get that. Everyone gets that. There's plenty of evidence about that. But you have so far had nothing to say about the CITED fact that legal and illegal immigrants have been used to bully American workers out of meat packing and other industries and that their arrival coincided with a degradation of workplace safety and also wages. You don't WANT to talk about that. But you know what? Everyone else is. So, hey, if you want to keep calling me ignorant and Mister black-and-white, fine, I'll go stand with the people who know that Corporate America is using immigrants to push Americans out of sectors of the workforce, lower wages, and get away with abuse. I'll go stand with the people who want to see immigrants unionized and employers punished and fined for the abuse.

And no, my peaches won't go up to $10 a pound, either.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #88)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 11:41 PM

89. Good bye, I have had it

with this, no, not your "facts." The fact that many of us try to talk to you and the walls are not as hard headed.

Have a grand wonderful life in fantasy land

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #89)

Mon Oct 8, 2012, 12:06 AM

90. Yup, goodbye. You've been busted spouting falsehoods and trying to misdirect the discussion.

 

Fact #1: You said
They are NOT factory workers, they are AGRICULTURAL workers.


This was a falsehood and it has been proven to be wrong. You won't own up to that.

Immigrant workers at an equipment and apparel factory producing for the U.S. military:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/15/us-usa-immigration-raid-idUSN1543286320070515

Immigrant workers at meat packing plants that aren't in agriculture:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/irrad/slaughterworkers.cfm

LEGAL H-2B Immigrant labor trafficking in manufacturing:
http://www.polarisproject.org/human-trafficking/labor-trafficking-in-the-us/factories

Immigrant furniture factory workers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us/22immig.html?pagewanted=all

Women immigrants comprise most of the garment industry:
http://www.incite-national.org/index.php?s=123


Fact #2: The jobs that immigrants take now and Americans don't take, are jobs that Americans were pushed out of.


The great nadinbrzezinski, shown to be dead wrong on the very issue you claim to be an expert at.


Oh and since you've completely conceded this, I've taken our argument a little further:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021492091

Perhaps if you REALLY mean "good bye", then maybe the rest of us have a chance at an honest discussion about this.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #80)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:22 PM

131. "If I were an unemployed American, I'd move across the border to get a job if I could."

The southern border? Good luck. You really must not be aware of the current political and societal climate down south.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #131)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:26 PM

133. So what are the unemployed to do here? Starve?

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #133)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:32 PM

135. You are clearly not serious. nt.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #135)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:49 PM

136. You clearly have no solutions to offer our unemployed.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #136)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:53 PM

137. Nothing that will top your yearning to send Americans to Mexico for employment.

Hence the comment, you are not serious.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #137)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:10 PM

139. Why shouldn't they go where the jobs are? Where would you say to go?

 

To call your responses unproductive is to be... highly charitable.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #139)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:59 AM

153. Show me the labor statistics for Mexico. And the violence rate while you are at it.

And I thank you for your kind charity.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #153)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 01:42 PM

154. I asked you the question first: where are our unemployed going to go?

 

Are you suggesting they stay here and wallowing in eternal unemployment until they starve and die?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #52)


Response to Zalatix (Reply #45)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:52 PM

64. There are few things easier in the world than being an American working abroad,

You could be a C student from the worst state school in the country and you will have practically no difficulty finding work abroad, Americans can work abroad with ease, never being challenged on their credentials or treated like potential illegal immigrants or welfare cases. Obtaining visa's is usually measured in hours and not weeks or months.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #64)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:54 PM

65. Nice fantasy, that.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #65)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:56 PM

67. Please list the countries in which you were denied work visas.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #67)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:01 PM

68. Please list the countries that let in C-students from America to work there.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #68)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:03 PM

69. So you acknowledge you have never sought or been denied foreign employment

That will do.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #69)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:12 PM

70. So you admit you were blowing smoke! That will do.

 

Your argument is laughably lame. It's like saying you can't argue for gay rights if you're not gay.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #70)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:39 PM

71. What is lame is your persisant appeals to authority on a multitude of subjects

That you immediately demonstrate Palin level ignorance of.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #71)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:58 PM

72. You are not one to accuse anyone of being ignorant, considering you're CONSTANTLY in error.

 

Your views on trade are EXACTLY the same as Mitt Romney's. And half as well-informed.

Now I will ask again: Please list the countries that let in C-students from America to work there.

You keep avoiding that for a reason.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #64)

Mon Oct 8, 2012, 10:58 PM

95. EU

 

Currently, every EU country has a different process for granting work permits to nationals of non-EU countries. To address this issue, the European Commission began work in 1999 on developing an EU-wide process for the entry of non-EU nationals into the work force. In October 2007, they adopted a proposal to introduce a work permit similar to the United States' "Green Card" program, called the "Blue Card". It is similar to the UK's Highly Skilled Migrant Programme, with the exception that it will require an employment contract in place prior to migration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_permit#European_Union

There are tens of thousands American illegal aliens working in EU. They would not be illegal aliens if they could easily obtain working permit, and they do get deported:
http://eslhell-thepaininspain.blogspot.fi/2009/04/lot-of-my-friends-especially-my-spanish.html

And if suspected as planning to work illegally, they can be denied entrance:
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1336912

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Response to tama (Reply #95)

Wed Oct 10, 2012, 06:31 AM

96. This is ofcourse qualified with the expectation you're legally sponsored by an employer...

With the exception of Australia there aren't many countries that will give an American a visa to pick fruit.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #96)

Wed Oct 10, 2012, 07:33 AM

97. Or work the factory line. nt

 

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #64)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:13 PM

140. Canada has a "points based" visa system, and admits virtually ZERO unskilled immigrants.

Misrepresenting facts is a lousy argument strategy, but hey...

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Response to Romulox (Reply #140)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 12:04 AM

152. Who said anything about unskilled labor?

If an American wishes to cast their net abroad and steal them a foreigners jerb, it is easier for you as an American than for a foreigner to steal an American jerb by a pretty significant magnitude.

Why?

Well quite simply individual American expats aren't viewed with much if any suspicion and rarely if ever are the targets of xenophobic rage. Meanwhile over here even those on the supposed left will launch into a drooling nativist rant over just about anything.

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Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #29)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:38 PM

76. If I could teleport I'd eat in Italy everyday

Or India, France, Greece, Japan, China....ok I just really like food.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:22 PM

46. Why should people -- americans, indians, or anyone else -- be forced to move halfway around

 

the world for a job?

I don't like this idea that if indians open up jobs to americans (plenty of americans working in india, btw, the doors are not completely closed), then h1bs are peachy-keen.

People should be able to be rooted in a place, not sent hither & yon across the globe because of the vagaries of the all-mighty 'economy,' which are actually nothing to do with 'the economy' per se, but with the money-making, labor-killing schemes of global elites. Families and communities should not be destroyed to build the fortune & power of the global 1%.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #46)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:24 PM

47. Good points! X 1000

 

My whole point was to expose the indifference that the free trade mentality has toward America's working class. And that indifference has come out in all its glory.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #47)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:55 PM

61. Your point

 

is not unrelated to indifference of America's working class to other working classes - inside and outside US.

Class consciousness is a social construct, network of solidarity. Across the borders.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #46)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:43 PM

77. Happening right now

I pretty much have been told that if I want to keep my job I need to move to Canada or new Zealand as the bulk of the jobs in my field are going there chasing subsidies. I have two young kids in school ages 6 and 8 and a spouse with a job here in the states. I'm supposed to ask them to move? Or find a new career? It's insane. Gotta make a decision soon

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #77)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:57 PM

78. it's happened all through history. it's what capitalism does -- destroy communities, families and

 

subordinate them to the demands of profit and elites.

while they talk out of both sides of their mouths about 'family values'. they are the biggest force destroying families.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:14 PM

141. Why because it makes the rich (just a bit!) richer, of course. nt

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:54 PM

51. I will leave it to others to decide what is fair and unfair. I would just like to be honest ...

 

about the issue and have the corporate executives and their sock-puppet politicians admit that these work visas have nothing to do with the absence of expertise in the US. These work visas are used to reduce labor costs.

Young people should be told in advance that large loans used to finance their education are not sustainable in a job market that is being replaced by workers from third world countries.

Some young people are already awakening to that fact. All young people should be warned.

No one will ever know what innovation never took place because highly educated, well trained US STEM workers are being replaced by cheap, entry level, submissive, third world workers, primarily from India and Communist China.

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Response to twins.fan (Reply #51)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:15 PM

146. +1. they're liars and they should be called on it on a daily basis. history shows very clearly how

 

simple it is to defund & deskill a country. the british in india are a good example; a rich, technologically advanced (for the time) country when the brits arrived; a poor impoverished country when they left. the british moved indian textile production to england and turned india into a resource base.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:24 PM

53. There are millions of Americans working abroad. And, I don't mean just the US Army.

Last edited Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:07 PM - Edit history (1)

The "State Department estimate suggests the number may be between three and six million." Wiki: American Diaspora

The United States enjoys a huge balance of payments SURPLUS in Trade in Services. We enjoy a surplus of more than $170 billion, in large part because skilled Americans work on projects and export their knowledge around the world. If we closed the door to H-1B and other skilled foreign workers, and the rest of the world followed suit, the US would end up much poorer. BTW: there is a cap on the number of new H-1B workers the US will admit each year - only 85,000 H-1B visas are issued each year. Compared to the US technology sector, which employs about 20 million, foreign workers are only a tiny fraction of the total job market here.

The problem with US Balance of Payments is due to de-industrialization of America and the lack of regulation of domestic reinvestment by manufacturing industries, which creates the even bigger deficit in Trade in Goods, more than $730 billion.

Your whole anti-immigrant, shut out H-1B workers argument is based in a gross fallacy.

Here are the figures for US Balance of Payments, 2000-2011, https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gands.txt


Balance Exports Imports
Period Total Goods BOP Services Total Goods BOP Services Total Goods BOP Services


2000 -376,749 -445,787 69,038 1,072,783 784,781 288,002 1,449,532 1,230,568 218,964
2001 -361,771 -421,276 59,505 1,007,726 731,189 276,537 1,369,496 1,152,464 217,032
2002 -417,432 -474,491 57,059 980,879 697,439 283,440 1,398,311 1,171,930 226,381
2003 -490,984 -540,409 49,425 1,023,519 729,816 293,703 1,514,503 1,270,225 244,278
2004 -605,357 -663,507 58,150 1,163,146 821,986 341,160 1,768,502 1,485,492 283,010
2005 -708,624 -780,730 72,106 1,287,441 911,686 375,755 1,996,065 1,692,416 303,649
2006 -753,288 -835,689 82,401 1,459,823 1,039,406 420,417 2,213,111 1,875,095 338,016
2007 -696,728 -818,886 122,158 1,654,561 1,163,957 490,604 2,351,289 1,982,843 368,446
2008 -698,338 -830,109 131,770 1,842,682 1,307,499 535,183 2,541,020 2,137,608 403,413
2009 -379,154 -505,758 126,603 1,578,945 1,069,733 509,212 1,958,099 1,575,491 382,608
2010 -494,737 -645,124 150,387 1,842,485 1,288,882 553,603 2,337,222 1,934,006 403,216
2011 -559,880 -738,413 178,533 2,103,367 1,497,406 605,961 2,663,247 2,235,819 427,428
U.S. Census Bureau, Foreign Trade Division.
NOTE: (1) Data presented on a Balance of Payment (BOP) basis. Information on data sources and methodology
are available at www.census.gov/foreign-trade/www/press.html.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #53)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:26 PM

54. A surplus of $100 billion and yet tons of American STEM workers are jobless, and wages not rising?

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #54)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:41 PM

55. Current STEM (IT industry, medicine) unemployment is 4.5-5.5%

http://mashable.com/2012/07/06/information-technology-unemployment-rate/

Medical and financial industries, about the same. BLS - http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t14.htm

Wages are rising in STEM. Much of the rest of the economy is in the toilet but Silicon Valley is in a mini-boom - of course, much of that is clustered toward the very top of the scale, like the rest of American society.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #55)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:50 PM

56. O'rly?

 

http://www.vdare.com/articles/national-data-by-edwin-s-rubenstein-even-us-stem-graduates-unemployed-why-does-romney-want-

nformation systems 11.7%
Mechanical engineering 8.6%
General science 8.2%
Biology 7.7%
Computer science 7.4%
Business 7.4%
Chemistry 6.6%
Healthcare 5.4%
Education 5.4%

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #56)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:57 PM

57. VDARE is not a reliable source. It's an anti-immigrant blog.

That doesn't jive with either BLS or industry surveys, such as Gartner.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #57)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 12:11 PM

83. Read DATA, what is this thing you speak off?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #56)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:30 PM

134. Nice site you linked to.

Here is a quote from that sites blog.

"And if we want non-elite whites to have a favorable view of blacks, I have a better idea. I say let's expose non-elite whites to elite blacks( who don't commit crime). That way, non-elite whites will have a more favorable view of blacks."

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Response to leveymg (Reply #53)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:22 AM

115. 3 to 6 million *living* abroad, not *working*. < than 2% of the us population and some are

 

students, retirees, etc.

There are no reliable figures on how many Americans live abroad, but a State Department estimate suggests the number may be between three and six million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_diaspora

The country with the greatest number of us residents (3/4 of a million) = mexico. which suggests retirees.

India has very few americans living there (10-15,000), mainland china has under 100K.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #115)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 02:59 PM

128. If 50% are employed, that's still millions of Americans working abroad.

My basic point is that Trade in Services accounts are a large net positive for the US, and it would be destructive to the US economy to further restrict the int'l flow of skilled workers.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #128)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:23 PM

132. if half are working, it's .4 to .96% of the total US population. whereas about 8% of the us

 

population is unemployed by the narrowest definition.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #132)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:56 PM

138. Look at it this way: what percentage of the current accounts balance is $170 billion? That's the

net positive contribution to the US economy from global Trade in Services. Without that, we would be almost $950 billion in the red.

How many US jobs does $170 billion support? The median F/T wage is just shy of $40,000. That means that the surplus accounted for by Trade in Services is equivalent to more than 4 million F/T American jobs, and U.S. Trade in Services (about $780 billion per year) employs almost 20 million U.S. workers.

By comparison, only 85,000 new H-1B visas are issued each year. That's a tiny fraction compared to either number.

Would you rather that all those millions of Americans were out of work in a global trade war so that this country could be "cleansed" of skilled foreign workers? Do you get the point, now?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #138)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:08 PM

145. 55% of our global trade in services exports comes from 1) travel, passenger fares &

 

other transportation; 2) royalties & licensing fees; 3) defense & government expenditures.

45% comes from 'other private services' which include financial services, with a positive balance of about $70B. a pittance.

www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/trade/2012/xls/trad_time_series_0812.xls

“There is no way that services exports are going to be able to balance our deficit in goods,” he said. “And remember that services can be offshored as easily if not more easily than the production of goods.”

The numbers bear that out. The United States ran a $179 billion surplus from shipping services abroad last year, according to trade numbers released last week. By contrast, the trade deficit for goods and oil totaled $737 billion — a gap that has grown over the past two years.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/72876.html#ixzz291eSRWQJ

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/72876.html





Besides which, the fact that money from trade in services enters the US economy doesn't mean that it goes to job creation or is taxed like domestic expenditures are (helping to fund government services).

In 2010, 110K h1b visas were issued (not '85K'). In fact, the supposed limit is violated every year through various exceptions.

In addition, another 178K+ work visas were issued to: chileans & singaporeans with special skills (h1b1); nurses (h1c); seasonal agricultural workers (h2a); temporary workers (h2b); 'trainees' (h3); and employees of international companies (spouses are allowed to work as well) (l1).

www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY2010NIVWorkloadbyVisaCategory.pdf

That's about 1/4 million A YEAR, and i haven't even exhausted all the categories of work visas.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #145)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:38 PM

147. If you think 10 million US jobs is "a pittance", then you may just have a point.

But, nobody claimed that Trade in Services is the entire solution to the enormous problems with the imbalance in Trade in Goods. They are different issues, as much as you appear to conflate the two. You won't find a solution to the lack of an industrial policy in this country, and of capital offshoring and refusal to reinvest by US-based multinationals, by restricting nonimmigrant workers. Quite the opposite - these same companies, if unable to transfer international personnel and access global talent will simply move more of their operations offshore. Is that what you want?

At least, those who work here live here, spend most of their earnings here. At this point, it's obscenely easy and cheap to offshore jobs and profits. If you're concerned about maintaining US employment, that's where one can concentrate and obtain gains without the unintended consequence of attacking the last sector of global trade where the US maintains a substantial advantage.

BTW: there's a statutory cap on H-1Bs: 65K plus 20K for advanced degree holders. Universities and gov't research institutions are exempt from the cap. The H2A and H2B programs are for lower-skilled seasonal and agricultural workers, and that involves a different set of issues. The H3 trainee program is small. H-1 spouses cannot work - L-1 Intracompany spouses get work authorization.

By far, the biggest non-immigrant group are Canadians professionals who enter on TN visas - about 800,000 last year, but there are many US workers in Canada these days. Do you want to close the Canadian border?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #147)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:54 PM

148. show me the evidence of global trade in service creating 10 million jobs in the us for americans.

 

currently there are about 142 million employed in the us. You're asking me to believe that trade in services creates 7% of all jobs.

bull.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:15 PM

62. So the roughly 7 million US Expatriates don't work for a living?

In there city where I work there are more than 100,000 American expats. What do you imagine we do all day?

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #62)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:17 PM

63. That is a PITTANCE compared to the number of immigrants we have here.

 

Which is, in fact, DOWN in recent years because we have no jobs here. Unlike other places, which are swimming in jobs they took from the US.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #63)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:54 PM

66. you said "why aren't Americans needed for jobs elsewhere?"

Well. they are and usually pretty good jobs too.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #62)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:25 AM

116. not if they're retirees or students. the country with the largest number of expats = mexico.

 

a lot of them are retirees.

tell me this city where you live, as at least according to the stats given at wikipedia there are only 4 foreign countries with over 100K american expats total: mexico, canada, uk & germany.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 11:34 AM

82. "Workers of the WORLD Unite" is still the answer.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #82)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 07:51 PM

86. Bingo, but that ain't gonna happen unless

people leave some of that nationalist shit behind

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #82)

Mon Oct 8, 2012, 12:23 AM

91. You might want to read this, then

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #91)

Mon Oct 8, 2012, 02:08 AM

93. Immigrant unionizing

 

sounds like a good start.

However, it would be especially difficult for illegals to unionize "legally". Ever heard of Wobblies?

PS: I'm amazed at the pace you are learning and how you are doing it. And happy that all the good agitprop of DU is not falling on deaf ears. Thank you.

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Response to tama (Reply #93)

Mon Oct 8, 2012, 10:20 PM

94. I've heard of them, but not a lot about them. Thanks for the info!

 

And thanks again for the compliment... DU is a great resource for learning!

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Oct 8, 2012, 01:30 AM

92. Here

THE THIRD PIECE MIGRATION, THE ERRANT NIGHTMARE.

"From the American Rio Grande to the "European" Schengen space, a double contradictory tendency is confirmed. On one side the borders are closed officially to the migration of labor, on the other side entire branches of the economy oscillate between instability and flexibility, which are the most secure means of attracting a foreign labor force" (Alain Morice, Op. Cit.).

With different names, under a judicial differentiation, sharing an equality of misery, the migrants or refugees or displaced of all the world are "foreigners" who are tolerated or rejected. The nightmare of migration, whatever its causes, continues to roll and grow over the planet's surface. The number of people who are accounted for in the statistics of the UN High Commission on Refugees has grown disproportionately from some 2 million in 1975 to 27 million in 1995.

With national borders destroyed ( for merchandise) the globalized market organizes the global economy: research and design of goods and services, as well as their circulation and consumption are thought of in intercontinental terms. For each part of the capitalist process the "new world order" organizes the flow of the labor force, specialized or not, up to where it is necessary. Far from subjecting itself to the "free flow" so clucked-over by neoliberalism, the employment markets are each day determined more by migratory flows. Where skilled workers are concerned, whose numbers are not significance in the context of global migration, the "crossing of brains" represents a great deal in terms of economic power and knowledge. Nevertheless, whether skilled labor, or unskilled labor, the migratory politics of neoliberalism is oriented more towards destabilizing the global labor market than towards stopping immigration.

The Fourth World War, with its process of destruction/depopulation and reconstruction/reorganization provokes the displacement of millions of people. Their destiny is to continue to wander, with the nightmare at their side, and to offer to employed workers in different nations a threat to their employment stability, an enemy to hide the image of the boss, and a pretext for giving meaning to the racist nonsense promoted by neoliberalism.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Wed Oct 10, 2012, 08:03 AM

98. How's that Know-Nothingism working out for you there?

Six million Americans live and work abroad. This is twelve times number of H1B visa holders in the USA. The job market and the economy are not a zero-sum game; economic growth and expansion of an industry creates jobs. An immigrant employed in the US pays US taxes and spends money in the local economy; conflating immigration (whether of H1B's or green card holders) and offshoring is ignorant at best and blatantly stupid xenophobia at worst.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #98)

Wed Oct 10, 2012, 10:40 AM

99. Socratically, obviously

 

"I only know that I know nothing". That's a good state to state opinions, have them trashed in discussion and develop new better opinions.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #100)

Wed Oct 10, 2012, 11:05 AM

101. Interesting

 

but I still prefer to think of Zalatix and everybody else myself included as socratic know-nothing. The education results are better that way.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #98)

Wed Oct 10, 2012, 05:57 PM

102. How's the half-truths working out for you?

 

This is twelve times number of H1B visa holders in the USA.

But not nearly the number of immigrants that come here for work. Do you deny this? Do you deny this?

We'd cause a PANIC in other nations if we sent our 10 million unemployed abroad in search of work.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #102)

Wed Oct 10, 2012, 09:58 PM

103. "not nearly"? You're wrong, actually

there are twelve million legal permanent residents in the US. Out of a population of 310 million, which is more than Germany, France, the UK, Spain and Italy combined. You're pretty ignorant of what the economic impact of immigration actually is (jobs are NOT a zero-sum game). You're also pretty ignorant of the basics of legal immigration. Legal immigrants are not allowed to just come looking for work anyway, were you not aware of this? The categories of legal immigration are: family sponsored (people with family members legally resident in the US); spouses of US citizens and lawful permanent residents; and employer-sponsored immigrants who have a job waiting for them. People can't just come to the US with no connections, no job and no prospects, even if they wanted to; not legally, the system doesn't work like that.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #103)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 12:30 AM

104. How intellectually dishonest of you.

 

Twelve million legal residents in the US is TWICE the number of Americans that you say work abroad. TWICE. That was intellectually dishonest move #1 on your part: you tried to downplay the severity of the difference between the number of Americans working abroad, and the number of people coming here for a job.

Then you didn't count the illegal immigrants at all in that figure. You know, the ones that the employers want the most because they can REALLY shaft them with crappier wages and crappier working conditions. Intellectually dishonest move #2 on your part.

As for the economic impact: the impact of immigrants, especially in farming, is that employers use them to keep wages down and working conditions hellish.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45246594/ns/business-us_business/t/why-americans-wont-do-dirty-jobs/
Skinning, gutting, and cutting up catfish is not easy or pleasant work. No one knows this better than Randy Rhodes, president of Harvest Select, which has a processing plant in impoverished Uniontown, Ala. For years, Rhodes has had trouble finding Americans willing to grab a knife and stand 10 or more hours a day in a cold, wet room for minimum wage and skimpy benefits.

Farming is not held to the same workplace regulations as other types of work. This kind of bullshit you read above is allowed in agriculture. Why? Because agriculture uses immigrant labor, which they then bully into keeping quiet about their wages and working conditions. Complaining means you lose your job.

The economic impact of immigration is that too many immigrants are being used as a weapon to enable workplace abuse and crap wages. That is true and undeniable across the board - from agriculture to meat packing, factory work and textiles. Apparently, you're ignorant of that. Or you're just being intellectually dishonest.

You're right on one thing - it's not a zero-sum game. It is, in fact, a negative-sum game.

As I posted in another thread, we need to renegotiate NAFTA and require livable wages and the right to unionization in the US, Canada and Mexico, in order to put an end to this.

Do you oppose this solution?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #104)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 12:38 AM

105. Not intellectually dishonest at all

weight the population of all the countries where Americans live and work abroad and you'll find that per capita the US has more citizens working abroad than other countries have citizens resident in the USA. Simple math. 12 million out of 6.7 billion? insignificant. Six million out of 310 million? nearly 2 percent. And farm labourers are not legal immigrants for the most part, so that's a completely different discussion. Quit moving the goalposts.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #105)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 12:47 AM

106. I'm not moving any goalposts. I was talking about immigrants, period, legal or not.

 

Do you or do you not agree with the solution I proposed?

And as for your "weight the population" argument, what's your point? We should be sending more workers out since we're SHIT OUT OF JOBS HERE.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #106)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 01:06 AM

109. Have you had a look at the economic situation in Europe?

Unemployment is 11%. Economic growth is near nil. The USA is doing better, economically, at the moment, than much of the world. You did notice this recent economic crisis, yes?

And no, I think that your "solution" is stupid hyperbole. Governments are not in charge of determining what countries people who emigrate go to; neither is there any reason to expect reciprocity. You have a very minimal understanding of economics; you don't understand how immigration works; you don't understand how outsourcing works; you have no grounds or basis for even having an opinion on the subject, as ignorant as you are. So you're going to require that India, or the Philippines, or Mexico, outsource work to the US? Have you had a look at wage differentials? Standard of living? GDP per capita? Average incomes? Western companies that outsource call centres or software development to India do so because an Indian worker earns about $8000 a year. An American would starve on $8000 a year. In India it's a reasonable living. Of course the governments of poor countries with low standards of living are going to encourage investment and development and welcome new jobs; why shouldn't they? Demonising some poor bastard in Punjab working in a call centre to feed his family because "dey took ar jerbs!" is just blind stupidity; blaming undocumented immigrants working for a buck an hour picking apples and sleeping 12 to a room in a shack for the travails of unemployed Americans looking for non-agricultural work is also stupidity.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #109)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 01:41 AM

110. Learn to read. I was not talking about Governments determining what countries people emigrate to.

 

Furthermore, it is most certainly within Mexico's power to raise their wages and allow their workers to unionize. It is also within the power of India's and the Philippines' governments to do the same. So no, there's no hyperbole there, either. Apparently you're more ignorant of how governments work than you realize. You're mistaking the lack of courage to act, for the inability to act.


And now we get to offshoring, that fey little vampire you are so desperate to defend:

First of all, it is you who don't know ANYTHING about how outsourcing works - it exists for one purpose, to reduce the cost of labor.

So you're going to require that India, or the Philippines, or Mexico, outsource work to the US?

Would be nice, but not likely. However, if the US Dollar collapses, it may actually happen.

Demonising some poor bastard

Nobody's demonizing anyone in Punjab, or anywhere else.

What you fail to understand - along with economics, trade, why employers hire immigrants, and other things - is that America's working class is tired of their jobs

yes, those are THEIR JOBS

moving out of the country.

America's pollsters are seeing opposition to globalism hitting 90% AMONG DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS. That's on the rise, not the decline.

Let me explain reality to you as it is on Earth: exactly one of three things are going to happen. Either
1) America's working class is going to elect politicians that put up HUGE trade barriers that prevent more jobs from going overseas; or
2) The US Dollar is going to collapse because our monster trade deficits are naturally devaluing the dollar and driving up our national debt, and when that happens, imports will be too expensive; or
3) We renegotiate those trade deals the way I said we should.

There is no future for the offshoring of American jobs. And yes, I said AMERICAN JOBS because they are very much AMERICAN.


Even the World Bank is saying that the third world cannot continue to prosper by taking jobs from the United States.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2012/1009/World-s-big-wanted-sign-600-million-jobs
The World Bank, too, sees a need for many countries to avoid the model of export-led growth that has long relied heavily on wealthy consumers in Europe and the United States. A slowdown in richer nations means poorer nations must look more to their own markets or neighboring countries.


Yes, come back with your angry "you're ignorant!!!!" response. I don't care. Offshoring is doomed in the long term. You need to come to grips with that.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #110)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 02:53 AM

112. They aren't American jobs if it's a multinational corporation.

Welcome to the global economy; I'm really sorry you don't like it. And offshoring is doomed in the long term, yes, but that's because rising productivity and economic growth in developing countries raise their wages to Western levels (see: Japan).

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #112)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:26 AM

117. the economy has always been global.

 

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #112)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:31 AM

122. "They aren't American jobs if it's a multinational corporation." You can go tell that fairy tale to

 

your free trade pals. Me, I've had enough of this. America's working class has had enough of this. At what point do you get tired of selling that nonsense to American workers only to have them tell you it's NONSENSE? Do you really think that you'll ever succeed?

Accept the fact that the way out is to unionize the world's working class. Global economic collapse will happen LONG before rising productivity and economic growth kills offshoring.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #122)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 06:02 AM

123. "Unionise the world's working class"...

because wages, living standards, and production costs are the same everywhere, aren't they? I just love the economic nationalism here which is nothing more or less than a less-openly-articulated "fuck you Jack, I got mine"..."no, sorry, India, China, Mexico, wherever, you need to stay poor and backwards, you can export raw materials to the USA but god forbid your industries ever start to challenge ours, that must not be allowed to happen!" is the implicit subtext in everything you're saying. It's very ugly and viciously xenophobic. It's not a very long way from rhetoric like yours to the sort of thing that's going on in Greece right now. Dressing it up as concern for workers makes it no less ugly.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #123)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 11:00 AM

125. You just keep telling yourself that.

 

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #123)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 07:50 PM

151. It's funny how your "solution" to poverty in other countries makes the rich in the US richer.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #98)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:15 PM

142. The neo-liberalism has given us 30 plus years of stagnant wages, decreasing lifespans for children,

And the greatest inequality since the so-called "Gilded Age".

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Response to Romulox (Reply #142)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 06:31 PM

149. There are other factors at work there.

Most of them have very little to do with "30 years of neo-liberalism" and much more to do with the fact that the USA in the 20 or so years of the immediate post-war era was a colossus that bestrode the world; the only advanced industrial power not devastated by war, producer of over half the world's oil (more, by share, than Saudi Arabia today); a major manufacturing and exporting nation with few competitors and no equals. Nearly seventy years down the road, the world is very different. The US now produces less than ten percent of the world's oil and accounts for far less of its productive industrial capacity; in part because of the reindustrialisation of Europe and the rise of Japan in the postwar era, and in part because of the industrialisation of countries like China and India. That's the underlying global economic picture. And I hate to say it, but expecting that anything can happen to bring the glory days of the 1950's-'60's economy back is kind of the equivalent of Plains Indians doing the Ghost Dance to bring back the buffalo. The US isn't going to have that kind of share of global GDP, ever again; the US isn't going to have that kind of edge in manufacturing capacity or energy production, ever again.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #149)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 07:43 PM

150. Um Spidey? The complaint isn't about the size of the GDP. It's about INEQUALITY. Wrap your

head around the difference before producing the next wall-o-text, wouldya?

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:28 AM

118. sure are a lot of cheap-labor democrats these days. 'investors' i surmise.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 12:26 PM

126. It's Friedman's "Flat Earth" philosophy - economics in terms of investment possibilities.

Toss out individual capabilities, toss out degrees of talent, toss out family structure, toss out communities - a workforce and jobs all fungible; they're all just numbers on an economic spreadsheet because the real measure of "Flat Earth" economics is where the GDP is.

See, in the Friedmanite world, a "semi-skilled" labor force (comprised of high-school to trade school graduates) is not really a professionally locked Middle Class as would be a labor force that completed graduate level training; so when a factory employing 1000 line and shop leadership positions moves to Malaysia means that the American workforce in that factor is now free to find jobs in equally "skilled" fields in logistics or similar marketplace-support working class jobs; that the increase lower cost goods in the global marketplace means there should be an increased need for jobs in warehouses, sales, and delivery.

I quote from Thomas Friedman's 2012 New York Times op-ed “Made In The World” where he discusses the benefits of moving manufacturing businesses and factory jobs to where they can realize the greatest profit for shareholders . (and I used this quote in my final essay on Ethics in Business class a month ago):
"In a world where logistics will be the source of a huge number of (sic-American) middle class jobs, we have FedEx and UPS”.

Think about that for a moment. A GDP-focused economic wonk who observes business from the management/profit side is equating a long-term, stable union factory job in which there are generally a good number of employees actually have some pride in the fact that they are accomplishing something tangible and can grow within the system through skill and seniority is on the same level as a job delivering goods through FedEx as an on-contract/at-will driver or working an Amazon warehouse job - or working at a gas station. Friedman apparently believes that all a worker has to do to have living wage employment is to go out and get a job because any job that's out there will do just fine...

Labor is a means for Capital growth, but Labor also is the means of sustainability for over 70% of the world's population - and of that 70%, close to 80% are non-professional/semi-skilled workers.
Capital may be the means of sustainability for organizational functions, but without existence of a strong Labor force, it exists in a vacuum. Without a strong, stable labor force employing a majority of your population, you don't have strong, stable consumer base, and you also can't support stable local governments for Capital to operate equitably in. Basically if there is no concern in maintaining a strong, stable labor force, the majority of people and organizations involved in Capital Markets are reduced to the level of existence of predatory gangs vying for Market supremacy whether individual holders of Capital wish to play the Free Market game or not.

And I'm sure all the professional working Middle Class - the academics, the researchers, the "experts" and others wearing "white collars" rather than blue (doctors, lawyers, engineers, artists) who feel immune to the vaguaries of the Market will also feel that they are immune to instability in Labor. But the reality is that so much of their economic sustainability is based on the stability of both Labor and Capital, and the failures of one or economic short-sightedness of the other will affect them just as catastrophically as it does the side that fails.

We have over 60 million+ citizens in the US; and 20 - 30 million of them are either too young, too old, or too disabled to work (be employed) or participate in any form of economic activity other than as a passive consumer.
So there needs to be an economic (Labor and Capital) structure to for at least 30 million citizens to actively participate (i.e. work, create, develop, manage or invest) in. The economic structure the US has been creating over the past 50 years has been treating the workforce - a good three-quarters of the citizenry - as interchangeable, disposable tools for the creation of Capital.

But since you can't "throw away" or "pink slip" a citizenry or Labor force if there's no place for them to go other than where they have been used - if there's no metaphorical trash can (other than perhaps prison) that takes them off your office floor - you are stuck with a growing stack of very desperate, stressed out extra people that are constantly there.

And history has plenty of examples of what happens when you have a greater amount of desperate, "disposed of" citizens hanging around with nothing to do than you do productive, secure citizens.

I would hope that those who have built themselves their own reality have enough awareness of history to know what they are doing.

Haele

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 12:30 PM

127. A lot of companies do outsource jobs here

 

Toyota recently opened a huge plant here if I recall correctly. And they're hardly the only ones.


Here's an idea... if you want to send immigrants and H1b non-immigrant visa hunters to America, you take an equal amount of American workers in your country, or no deal.


How would that be weighted? If they give us a thousand manual laborers and we give them a few brilliant engineers/surgeons is that equal?

On tariffs I think we should implement trade restrictions exactly equal to what they put on our goods.

So for instance if China buys only steel and wheat from the US in equal amounts (to crazy oversimplify) and they put a 50% tariff on steel to protect their industry but no tariff on wheat because they need the food we should average that out and put a 25% tariff on all goods from China.

If they remove their trade barriers we will do the same.

/subsidies will have to be factored in somehow as well.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:13 PM

129. The unique part of American history is that....

it is a place people want to come to. Not get away from.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #129)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:20 PM

144. As the unemployment problem grows, that's going to change.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:16 PM

143. I know, I know. I drive my KIA SOUL all over the place, asking people "Where are the jobs????"

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