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Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:18 PM

Should a 13-year old murderer be tried as an adult?

Here in Sheboygan we have that controversy occurring.

Two 13-year old punks killed one of the punk's Grandma with a hatchet and a hammer, ransacked her house, then went out for pizza.

Both are facing life without parole for the crimes.

I say yes, they both should be tried as adults.
There is just *NO* excuse for what they did.

141 replies, 10057 views

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Arrow 141 replies Author Time Post
Reply Should a 13-year old murderer be tried as an adult? (Original post)
Archae Oct 2012 OP
skeewee08 Oct 2012 #1
Logical Oct 2012 #28
sadbear Oct 2012 #2
Iris Oct 2012 #3
Warpy Oct 2012 #4
Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #5
Brewinblue Oct 2012 #17
Lucy Goosey Oct 2012 #23
Iris Oct 2012 #36
TheMadMonk Oct 2012 #47
ButterflyBlood Oct 2012 #67
Iris Oct 2012 #71
Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #41
Drahthaardogs Oct 2012 #121
Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #122
CakeGrrl Oct 2012 #49
Iris Oct 2012 #72
GreenPartyVoter Oct 2012 #114
march starling Oct 2012 #115
Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #116
DJ13 Oct 2012 #6
josh3693 Oct 2012 #14
Betsy Ross Oct 2012 #7
porphyrian Oct 2012 #8
Nevernose Oct 2012 #128
Grave Grumbler Oct 2012 #9
Logical Oct 2012 #27
Grave Grumbler Oct 2012 #31
josh3693 Oct 2012 #10
WillyT Oct 2012 #11
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #12
former-republican Oct 2012 #56
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #63
former-republican Oct 2012 #70
treestar Oct 2012 #86
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #93
treestar Oct 2012 #95
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #99
treestar Oct 2012 #100
former-republican Oct 2012 #140
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #89
dionysus Oct 2012 #91
morningfog Oct 2012 #135
sir pball Oct 2012 #82
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #92
sir pball Oct 2012 #112
sir pball Oct 2012 #113
MADem Oct 2012 #110
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #117
MADem Oct 2012 #125
bluestateguy Oct 2012 #13
JaneyVee Oct 2012 #15
Jackpine Radical Oct 2012 #16
HockeyMom Oct 2012 #18
Lightbulb_on Oct 2012 #19
mrmpa Oct 2012 #20
Logical Oct 2012 #29
mrmpa Oct 2012 #33
Logical Oct 2012 #39
cleanhippie Oct 2012 #88
MADem Oct 2012 #103
cleanhippie Oct 2012 #105
MADem Oct 2012 #109
cleanhippie Oct 2012 #119
Logical Oct 2012 #108
cleanhippie Oct 2012 #118
Taverner Oct 2012 #21
slackmaster Oct 2012 #22
eqfan592 Oct 2012 #59
slackmaster Oct 2012 #79
treestar Oct 2012 #85
aint_no_life_nowhere Oct 2012 #24
Lightbulb_on Oct 2012 #37
greyl Oct 2012 #44
aint_no_life_nowhere Oct 2012 #46
eqfan592 Oct 2012 #61
Lightbulb_on Oct 2012 #73
Shankapotomus Oct 2012 #25
rug Oct 2012 #26
1-Old-Man Oct 2012 #30
ohheckyeah Oct 2012 #32
Laffy Kat Oct 2012 #34
NotThisTime Oct 2012 #35
Pithlet Oct 2012 #38
fishwax Oct 2012 #40
Brickbat Oct 2012 #42
MH1 Oct 2012 #43
former-republican Oct 2012 #57
JVS Oct 2012 #45
hrmjustin Oct 2012 #48
Pacafishmate Oct 2012 #50
Douglas Carpenter Oct 2012 #51
dkf Oct 2012 #52
Cali_Democrat Oct 2012 #53
OriginalGeek Oct 2012 #54
Savannahmann Oct 2012 #55
Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2012 #58
lunasun Oct 2012 #60
Skip Intro Oct 2012 #62
Th1onein Oct 2012 #64
ButterflyBlood Oct 2012 #65
geek tragedy Oct 2012 #66
TheKentuckian Oct 2012 #68
rppper Oct 2012 #69
HereSince1628 Oct 2012 #74
aint_no_life_nowhere Oct 2012 #123
cali Oct 2012 #75
aikoaiko Oct 2012 #76
aandegoons Oct 2012 #77
Brainstormy Oct 2012 #78
valerief Oct 2012 #80
Whovian Oct 2012 #81
Union Scribe Oct 2012 #97
tjwash Oct 2012 #83
treestar Oct 2012 #84
Aerows Oct 2012 #87
TBF Oct 2012 #90
Union Scribe Oct 2012 #94
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #96
proud2BlibKansan Oct 2012 #98
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #106
MADem Oct 2012 #101
Iggo Oct 2012 #102
Bluenorthwest Oct 2012 #104
Puregonzo1188 Oct 2012 #107
MrSlayer Oct 2012 #111
Nevernose Oct 2012 #129
MrSlayer Oct 2012 #130
JVS Oct 2012 #132
morningfog Oct 2012 #137
MrSlayer Oct 2012 #141
Evoman Oct 2012 #120
MADem Oct 2012 #127
yawnmaster Oct 2012 #138
SILVER__FOX52 Oct 2012 #124
Stinky The Clown Oct 2012 #131
Skittles Oct 2012 #126
Exultant Democracy Oct 2012 #133
morningfog Oct 2012 #134
Marrah_G Oct 2012 #136
yawnmaster Oct 2012 #139

Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:19 PM

1. Yes....

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Response to skeewee08 (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:10 PM

28. The ... usually means you have more info. Which of course you left out.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:20 PM

2. I usually err on the side of caution.

I would here, as well. (That means I wouldn't try them as adults.)

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:25 PM

3. No. n/t

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:25 PM

4. They're not adults.

The crime is heinous but kids that young are still doing a lot of magical thinking.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:26 PM

5. I dislike this whole "trying them as an adult" concept.

Last edited Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:48 PM - Edit history (1)

A kid is a kid and should be tried as a kid.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:36 PM

17. And release the murdering juvenile in five years

with a clean record? Sometimes it is far more complicated than a "kid is a kid." Sometimes that kid is a psychopath.

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Response to Brewinblue (Reply #17)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:59 PM

23. I wish...

...I wish it weren't a choice between life without parole and release at 18 with a clean record.

In my opinion, the appropriate sentence is somewhere in between these 2 extremes.

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Response to Lucy Goosey (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:57 PM

36. I'm not sure that is the choice. Recent studies have found juveniles are punished MORE harshly

than adults who commit similar crime. The trying kids as adults trend has become a human rights issue in this country.

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Response to Iris (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 11:15 PM

47. Problem is the average adult time served (10-12 years)...

 

...releases juvenile offenders at an age where they still think they are bulletproof and have the physical capacity to do enormous harm.

There is also the thinking that anyone so faulty, so young will always be a danger. And realistically kids like this are clearly very, very broken and likely irrepairable.

Why are human rights such a one sided thing? Why do the rights of the individual all too often outweigh any danger he might reprepsent to those around him.

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Response to Iris (Reply #36)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:46 AM

67. I suspect that's because victims of adult killers tend to be less sympathetic

Take your standard gang on gang violence, or a junkie who gets in a fight with his dealer and one of them ends up dead, or a woman killing an abusive husband or some type of vigilante who kills someone who greatly hurt them or someone close to them. That makes up most murders involving adults. Now a teen who kills someone is far more likely to be a sociopath, and the crime is far more likely to be shocking.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #67)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:17 AM

71. I think your example of a woman killing an abusive husband is faulty.

Those cases don't draw much sympathy. At least not until very recently.

http://www.npr.org/2012/10/05/162169484/jailed-domestic-abuse-victims-get-chance-at-freedom

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Response to Brewinblue (Reply #17)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:41 PM

41. How about an 11 year old psychopath? A 10 year old psychopath?

There is not a clear dividing line beyond which someone should be eligible for life without parole. I would think a 13 year old could be sentenced to a secure facility and then re-evaluated in perhaps 10 years to determine whether they were a danger to society.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #41)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:46 PM

121. Yet if they are truly a psychopath, they are beyond help

so locking them up for life to protect society would be the right choice would it not? I mean, you cannot reform a true psychopath, thus I think your argument is null.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #121)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:12 PM

122. Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you like,

but I don't think life without parole for a 10 year old is ever appropriate.

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Response to Brewinblue (Reply #17)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 11:25 PM

49. Agreed. A human life has been taken. Is that any less offensive because the murderer is 13?

Sometimes there are just bad seeds.

Maybe they don't serve time in the same facility as adults, but they need to be behind bars somewhere. Kill and then go eat a pizza? Adults would get the DP for doing that.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:18 AM

72. Exactly.

n/t

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:37 PM

114. Agreed

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:43 PM

115. Now you stay classy, you hear?

 

Wow, it sounds like it's a struggle for you to express yourself in more than one sentence without uttering a profanity...

I agree that children that young should not be tried as adults, but why even "try" them? Sounds like the children are very mentally imbalanced. People feel that being punitive solves anything. I'd rather keep them away from the public and try to help them heal.

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Response to march starling (Reply #115)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:49 PM

116. Thanks. You are correct. I have edited my post to remove the profanity.

Sorry I offended you.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:27 PM

6. I'm a firm believer that if they are too young to sign legal contracts

They are too young to be treated as an adult.

Thats not to say they deserve leniency, that kind of crime for anyone below legal adulthood should be treated as a mental health issue, and no parole should be granted until theres sufficient evidence they pose no danger to society.

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Response to DJ13 (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:35 PM

14. +1

Well said.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:28 PM

7. Absolutely not!

No matter how heinous the crime. WE KNOW the teenage brain IS NOT the same as an adult's.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:28 PM

8. "Tried as adults" means "possible death penalty" in many states.

 

They should be held responsible as adults for murdering, but not necessarily "tried as adults." Make sense?

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Response to porphyrian (Reply #8)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:12 PM

128. Not anymore

And SCOTUS also ruled that minors could get life w/o parole, but they could not make it mandatory for some crimes. FWIW

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:30 PM

9. Yes.

 

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Response to Grave Grumbler (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:09 PM

27. LOL, thanks for the detailed analysis. I am convinced now.

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Response to Logical (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:20 PM

31. That's why I'm here.

 

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:32 PM

10. Usually no, but...

This is pretty horrifying. I would want to know a lot more before deciding though. Children are easily manipulated, especially those who are emotionally damaged. But hey, if it turns out they are just psychopathic little monsters, lock them up!

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:32 PM

11. It Depends...

If they were to be tried and found guilty in Juvenile Court... and then released at 18... then I agree... try them as adults.

But...

If they were to be tried as juveniles, and transfered to adult state prison for the next thirty or forty years, and THEN be given a chance at parole hearings every year after... then yeah... I say take that route.

Either that... or change the age of responsibility for one's actions, and then accord them the rights that go with those responsibilities.



There is a reason we chose 18 as the line drawn for adult responsibitity...

If you change one, you gotta change the rest.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:35 PM

12. No!

The brain is not finished forming until about the age of 20.

No 13-year old, no matter how heinous the crime, should ever be tried as an adult, ever.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:23 AM

56. might be a reason for it.

 

I could be wrong but the reason they have to be tried as an adult is because at 18
they could be set free .

Let some of our DU lawyers speak on this.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #56)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:36 AM

63. They should be tried as children, even if that requires they be set free

at 18.

Physically their brains are not mature.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #63)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:02 AM

70. 13 , 14 ,15 years old that murder people in cold blood

 

should not be set free on society after a few years.

There has to be other guidelines set by the courts.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #70)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:33 AM

86. Absolutely

Maybe the brain is not fully formed, but at 13-15 toleration of impulsiveness, etc. should not include murder. Stealing, assaults, OK, but actually killing someone?

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Response to treestar (Reply #86)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:14 PM

93. These children were created by their society...

If you have factory making IPAD's you can just shit-can those that don't meet up to specifications. But human beings aren't IPAD's, and they have been warped by the circumstances of their lives. If we want a Justice system, we must look past the act and try to understand why these things happen and fix the why rather than act out of self-righteous vengeance.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #93)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:17 PM

95. It's even more horrifying to have a kid killing than an adult

An adult had years of being a "product of society." If you're going to snap when only 13, I wonder if you aren't a potential Ted Bundy. Maybe we as a society created him too, but we have to lock him up nevertheless.

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Response to treestar (Reply #95)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:27 PM

99. Try living in an inners city in deep poverty...

where the only way out is often criminal behavior, where criminal behavior is rewarded with respect and wealth. Only a small percentage of children come out of poverty's meat-grinder as functional. Most just stay there and begat their own broken children. This is really no different than the issue of child soldiers. You take impressionable young minds and they can be convinced that anything is right, anything is normal.

We have to try to fix them and protect society. Our system of locking people up is punishment based on the wrong headed idea that if people are punished they will somehow learn something they were never taught by people who never learned those lessons either.

It is inhumane to treat children exactly as we treat adults because, as a society, we are too lazy and cruel consider a better way.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #99)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:31 PM

100. I'm not talking about that, I agree on that

But actual murder crosses the line.

This was in Sheybogen and may not have been in the inner city.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #99)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:59 PM

140. sometimes there is no better way

 

Some adults are just evil.

Some children that murder in cold blood are evil.

Life doesn't always make sense.
We can look for reasons, we can get think tanks together , some can even look to God


but in the end you will find evil is just evil

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Response to former-republican (Reply #70)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:00 PM

89. 13, 14, and 15 year old children are not physically, mentally, emotionally, or psychologically

adults.

What should be done with these children is to place them in a facility where they will be taught the things that their parents and society failed to teach them. They should not be shit-canned to institutions as if they were lesser mad dogs that we just need to put down.

Criminal behavior happens most often because their parents and society failed them, or some older person in a position of dominance led them down that path. If we set up a justice system to help them instead of continuing with a vengeance an punishment system, we would be better off as a society.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #89)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:06 PM

91. yeah but, at 13, one knows that its wrong to... MURDER AN OLD LADY WITH A FUCKING HATCHET!

when you were 13 you probably understood the ramifications of committing such a murder, no?

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Response to former-republican (Reply #70)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:08 PM

135. 15 or 25 is not a few.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #63)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:15 AM

82. Maybe not mature, but definitely broken.

Sorry, but I don't believe in any "innate goodness" crap in humanity. Some people are screwed up; even with poor impulse control, concept of consequence, and all the other trappings of immaturity - it takes a seriously screwed-up mind to hatchet Granny. At any age.

Now, as to whether or not these kids should be locked up with the keys tossed, I'm perfectly comfortable with NOT having that as an option on the table - charge and prosecute them as adults, but with a wait-and-watch sentencing structure; say 10-15-20 years of lockup, in a high-sec psych ward if you'd like, followed by evals at regular intervals. If they're not still deadly sociopaths, parole them. If they are, well, I honestly believe some people can't be fixed. Ever.

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Response to sir pball (Reply #82)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:09 PM

92. I did not say innate goodnes...there is no evidence of that in the universe.

but the failure is in the society that we share. Their parents and the society they live in failed these children. Rather than socialize them to be good members of society, we allowed them to be brutalized by poverty, dominated by adults broken probably beyond fixing.

A psych ward is designed to control patients rather than help them. If these children are salvageable, a psych ward, an adult prison, or even Juvenal detention are schools for criminals that make them into animals because our justice system is really a vengance system where society takes it revenge.

In order ot make them functioning human beings we need a different system. It is inhumane and illogical to treat children as if they were adults.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #92)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:34 PM

112. I don't think it's *always* nurture

"Innate goodness" was perhaps a poor choice of words...I mean to say that I do believe some people are just "born that way" and no matter what kind of environment they're raised in, or what effort (support, therapy) is put into them, will make them "functioning human beings". Terminally broken. Yeah, I do have a healthy cynical streak.

That being said, I'm entirely fine with the segregated environment these kids NEED to be put into being something much more evaluative, supportive, and rehabilitative than anything I tossed out offhand earlier; but as it stands right now I would call them monstrous and entirely unfit to be exposed to society at large. If they can be rehabilitated, redeemed as members of society, that's all the better and I do support spending the time and money to work towards that, but to act this horrifically at 13 there's something more going on than normal juvenile immaturity and it might very well NOT be fixable.

Any sources I can find are unfortunately light on details about their backgrounds, is there any more information available?

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #92)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:35 PM

113. I don't think it's *always* nurture

"Innate goodness" was perhaps a poor choice of words...I mean to say that I do believe some people are just "born that way" and no matter what kind of environment they're raised in, or what effort (support, therapy) is put into them, will make them "functioning human beings". Terminally broken. Yeah, I do have a healthy cynical streak.

That being said, I'm entirely fine with the segregated environment these kids NEED to be put into being something much more evaluative, supportive, and rehabilitative than anything I tossed out offhand earlier; but as it stands right now I would call them monstrous and entirely unfit to be exposed to society at large. If they can be rehabilitated, redeemed as members of society, that's all the better and I do support spending the time and money to work towards that, but to act this horrifically at 13 there's something more going on than normal juvenile immaturity and it might very well NOT be fixable.

Any sources I can find are unfortunately light on details about their backgrounds, is there any more information available?

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:47 PM

110. More like thirty or forty, according to some--and I think there's some validity there.

(PhysOrg.com) -- New research from the UK shows the brain continues to develop after childhood and puberty, and is not fully developed until people are well into their 30s and 40s. The findings contradict current theories that the brain matures much earlier. Professor Sarah-Jayne Blakemore, a neuroscientist with the Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience at University College London, said until around a decade ago many scientists had "pretty much assumed that the human brain stopped developing in early childhood," but recent research has found that many regions of the brain continue to develop for a long time afterwards. The prefrontal cortex is the region at the front of the brain just behind the forehead, and is an area of the brain that undergoes the longest period of development. It is an important area of the brain for high cognitive functions such as planning and decision-making, and it is also a key area for social behavior, social awareness, for empathy and understanding and interacting with other people, and various personality traits. Prof. Blakemore said the prefrontal cortex “is the part of the brain that makes us human,” since there is such a strong link between this area of the brain and a person’s personality. Prof. Blakemore said brain scans show the prefrontal cortex continues to change shape as people reach their 30s and up to their late 40s. She said the region begins to change in early childhood and then is reorganized in late adolescence but continues to change after that.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html#jCp


All that said, I think anyone over the age of eight knows full well that you don't kill your grandmother. You don't need a fully developed brain to have that little "no-no" down.

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Response to MADem (Reply #110)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:21 PM

117. It is really easy to screw up a child...

Look at child soldiers, or gang members. They don't start out being what they become. They are not a bad seed coming to fruit. They are cultivated and created.

The society the live in creates them. That society exists because the greater society we belong to allows it.

What he did was terrible, but it did not happen in a vacuum. He is a product of our world. Rather than consign him and the many like him to a life in a cage we should work to change it.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #117)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 08:57 PM

125. I think we should work to change the fate of at-risk kids, but once they

grab a hatchet and chop Granny to bits and then go out for pizza, the horse has left the barn.

Lock those kids up. Don't be cruel to them, but lock 'em up and throw away the key. They made their bed when they hacked Grandma to bits. Life isn't always fair, life isn't always optimal.

I don't know anyone who would want those kids living next door to them. Anyone. Ever. Even fifty years from now.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:35 PM

13. Maybe

I certainly think it should be considered. That's what preliminary hearings are for.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:36 PM

15. No.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:36 PM

16. I strongly disagree with adult sentencing of (miGod!) 13 year-olds.

They just aren't fully human yet.

I've been "inside" a number of murder cases, and sometimes your view of everything about the case changes as you find out more about the people involved.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:45 PM

18. I worked with a 13 year old who tried to shoot his Grandma

when he was 11. This was in a class of At Risk 5th Graders and I was just a TA. I never mentioned any of their past records, which were quite substantial, to them. This one boy volunteered this info, which I already knew, to me. Brilliant boy, literally, way ahead of his grade level.

He told me that he really didn't want to kill Grandma, but his Mom instead who had made his life so miserable. "Gram was really nice to me and I am sorry I did that". I won't get into what his mother did to him, but he then told me that when he grew up, he wanted to marry and have his own kids so he would "do right" by them and not have them live the life he had.

All I said to him was that you have the SMARTS to do that and make it happen. He smiled at me, and said, "Count on it".

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:48 PM

19. Age of reason...

 

A child can be excused because they might not know right from wrong.

At 13 you know that it is not "ok" to hatchet someone to death.

Life in prison for the both of em.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:54 PM

20. Yes, but not with a mandatory life sentence with no chance of parole.

The law takes into account whether or not the actor(s) know the difference between right & wrong, and can they reason. At the age of 13 (if there is no history of mental defect or illness) the actor(s) do know the difference.

Should the sentence be discretionary, yes it should, because hopefully there is a chance for rehabilitation.

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Response to mrmpa (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:11 PM

29. So 40 years would be OK with you? Jesus, people dont get it.

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Response to Logical (Reply #29)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:26 PM

33. What aren't I getting?

Is 40 years okay, with me? The sentencing should be determinate, e.g. 25-35 years. Not 20 to life. The first sentence gives a time frame in which rehabilitation & punishment must occur. The second gives nothing just a minimum and a maximum, which is a life sentence.

If you commit an adult crime, be ready to serve the adult time.

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Response to mrmpa (Reply #33)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:26 PM

39. So a "hard 40" sentence, in kansas, means 40 years with no parole. You think the kid getting out...

at 53 is much different than a life sentence?

LOL, is a 13 year old an adult? Yes or nO?

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Response to Logical (Reply #39)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:53 AM

88. Yes AND no.

I know a 13 year old boy that lives on the street that has the mental reasoning skills of a shoebox, yet the 13 year old girl who babysits for us is more "adult" than most adults I know, myself included.

How do we, as a society, deal with issue like this? Yes, we want to have compassion for a child, but at the same time, children cannot be allowed to HATCHET PEOPLE TO DEATH!

These things must be taken on a case-by-case basis. In THIS case, this child, who is also a monster akin to what haunts people in their dreams, must be kept away from the rest of society. And what accountability is there for the people charged with raising this child to be a functioning member of society? Do they get a pass?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #88)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:45 PM

103. A century or more ago, fifteen year olds were working full time as a matter of routine.

I have a distant cousin who married her fifteen year old husband seventy years ago and no one blinked an eye. She was an "older woman" by comparison!

In the 21st Century, childhood has been extended to the mid-20s. This attitude has colored people's attitudes about the abilities of teen agers. In the old days, kids couldn't wait until their brains were fully formed--by the time that happened, they were considered "middle aged!"

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Response to MADem (Reply #103)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:50 PM

105. I think that is true as well.

We, as a society (at least in the West), have kept children as "children" longer and longer. And the discussion about why would be a fascinating one.

But how do we deal with THIS particular case?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #105)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:37 PM

109. As I said downthread, lock 'em up.

We can hand-wring about their circumstances, their fate, their hard life, the fact that they are relatively young, as brutal murderers go, but anyone who could show such unbridled depravity isn't a good bet for integration into society at large. I wouldn't want to live next door to those kids, even if they were released when they were in their seventies. I don't think most people would, either.

I think the answer to this issue won't help them at all--we need to do a better job identifying children who are at-risk, for whatever reason, and prevent this kind of shit from happening. If, despite our best efforts it does happen, we need jails that are secure but not cruel and won't exacerbate the challenges the individual already faces.

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Response to MADem (Reply #109)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:23 PM

119. I think we are on the same page about this.

It is a difficult topic.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #88)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:32 PM

108. So if they are found not guilty are they still an adult? Drive? Drink? Etc?

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Response to Logical (Reply #108)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:22 PM

118. I don't know what you mean.

If you mean to say, if they are tried as an adult and found not guilty...? I don't have an answer for that.

What do you think should be done in this case?

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:56 PM

21. No. And I don't think the DP should be an option.

 

Life in prison, sure.

And they ARE children, so they should be tried like children

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:58 PM

22. They shouldn't be tried as adults, but should receive the same sentence that an adult would

 

Albeit served in a juvenile retention facility and given an eduction through high-school level, at least until they turn 18.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #22)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:29 AM

59. Well if you're going to sentence them as adults then what the hell is the point?

I mean seriously, we recognize there is a distinct difference between the judgement and cognitive abilities of children and adults, and yet for some reason in this country when it comes to crime, everybody is just so eager to just lash out with the full and completely power and authority of the law, even if the perpetrator is WELL below the legal age of adult hood.

Its absolutely disgusting in my opinion.

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #59)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:58 AM

79. You treat the defendant as a child during the trial, and while incarcerated until age 18

 

Dangerous individuals need to be taken out of circulation.

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #59)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:31 AM

85. But when it comes to murdering other people

Cognitive abilities of 13 should be able to figure out that it's wrong.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:01 PM

24. No

A kid can't enter into a binding contract. A kid can't give consent to sex. The law recognizes that children are not emotionally or intellectually mature, although some of them may very well be on an individual basis. If they're animals, put them away in a youth detention facility but in a lot of cases, prosecutors just want another notch in the belt by trying them as fully mature adults.

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Response to aint_no_life_nowhere (Reply #24)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:03 PM

37. Why?

 

Do you think a 13 year old doesn't know that it's wrong to hatchet an old woman to death?

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #37)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 10:17 PM

44. Do you think a 5 year old doesn't know that it's wrong to hatchet an old woman to death? nt

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #37)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 10:57 PM

46. They don't - at least not like an adult

Like I said, juveniles don't have the emotional or intellectual maturity of adults. They're malleable and far more susceptible to influence and peer pressure as well as the effect of passions and immediate emotions. A juvenile can't form a premeditated intent with the cold maturity of an adult. They're still developing their character and personality. They're not in control of their emotions and passions the way adults are. There's a good reason why juveniles are not allowed to participate in government or in the jury system; they don't have an established sense of good judgement over their own actions.

Infancy is a long-established defense to criminal charges under English common law and in western civilization. Under 7 years of age, there was a conclusive presumption that a child is incapable of committing a crime because they lack the capacity to appreciate the nature and wrongfulness of their acts. Under the age of 14, children were presumed incapable. Children over 14 could establish they didn't understand their actions were wrong.

Do I think juveniles who hatchet adults should be put away? Yes, but not in the adult criminal penal system.



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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #37)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:32 AM

61. Biggest bullshit question that can be asked when talking about this issue.

If 13 year old kids have the same judgment and reasoning capabilities as full on adults, then why have a legal distinction between the two in the first place? Oh, that's right, we have the legal distinction because they DON'T HAVE THE SAME JUDGMENT AND REASONING CAPABILITIES AS A FULL ON ADULT! I seriously don't understand how this is so difficult for people to understand.

Our desire for the twisted concept of "justice" that so many have seems a lot more like revenge to me.

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #61)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 08:38 AM

73. I don't claim that they have it in all things...

 

and that's why the system should ask the question. Did he know that it was wrong? Was it reasonable to expect him not to kill this woman?

However, it is totally reasonable to believe that a 13 year old knows that hatcheting a woman to death is wrong.

Thus he should be tried as an adult, imprisoned for life or the DP. Horrific crime..




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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:04 PM

25. Are they afforded the same rights as adults?

Do they have the right to extricate themselves from an intolerable or unwanted situation as an adult would? No? Are they legally under the submission of an older parental authority? Yes? Then, no, they should not be tried as adults.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:07 PM

26. No.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:17 PM

30. Being 13 is not an excuse for what they did, its a mitigating factor to consider.

I could not bring myself to put a 13-year-old into our adult system, no matter how horrific the crime.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:21 PM

32. A 13 year old isn't an adult

and committing a heinous crime doesn't make one an adult.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:29 PM

34. Well, since the AREN'T adults, I'd say no.

I don't even think life is appropriate for 13-year-olds. From what I understand, frontal lobes are even completely developed until our early 20s. As awful as this crime was, I am greatly troubled by trying juveniles as adults.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 08:53 PM

35. In this scenario, hell yes!

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:04 PM

38. No.

It's barbaric and backwards.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:32 PM

40. No, I don't think a 13-year-old should be tried as an adult

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:44 PM

42. No. They're not adults.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 10:13 PM

43. I don't think a 13 yr old should EVER be tried as an adult,

because they aren't adults, and aren't even remotely close.

I don't think they should be released into society at 18, either.

These kids have some major psychological damage. Was that the case before the murder, or as a result? Doesn't matter much, they should have a very long road of treatment ahead, and yes, confinement. But not tried as adults and not treated as adults until they actually are adults.

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Response to MH1 (Reply #43)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:25 AM

57. Do they have to be released by law?

 

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 10:33 PM

45. Children should be tried as children. On the other hand, I don't think that the juvenile justice...

system should automatically take the highest punishments such as life imprisonment off the table.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 11:18 PM

48. I am glad i do not have to make that choice.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 11:30 PM

50. For capital crimes, yes. Someone who killed an old woman with a hatchet cannot be reformed.

 

There is no chance of reintegration into society.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 11:33 PM

51. If they are old enough to drive,vote, consent for sex, buy alcohol,sign a contract then hell yes

Besides what could possibly happen to a 13-year-old inside an adult prison? Those who don't think a 13-year-old should be tried as an adult should be consistent and demand that laws are passed to restrict a 13-year-old from such things as purchasing alcohol, driving, getting married or divorced, entering into a consensual sexual relationship, quiting school and getting a job, joining the military or voting. If people insist on coddling a 13-year-old then let's first pass some laws that strip them of those rights. Because you are in fact admitting by granting them those rights that you think that they have all the faculties of an adult and you are implying that they are fully responsible for their actions.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:06 AM

52. Depends on the offense. In this case yes they should.

 

There is something broken there.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:10 AM

53. They should be charged as adults

If they're adults.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:16 AM

54. No.

Like has been said, this is a mental health issue and should be treated as such. They need therapy and it might take many years but a kid doesn't just go from fine and dandy to hatchet murder of grandma without some shit having happened. We need to find out what that shit was.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:22 AM

55. There are a circumstances which we do not have the answers to

First, what are the mental capacities of the children? Are they sane? Are they mentally developed to the age, or are they slow to develop? Are the kids able to understand what they've done? Do they show any remorse?

There is no simple one size fits all answer to these tragic situations. It is heartbreaking to imagine a life that is essentially ended at thirteen. It is further infuriating to imagine a life so bereft of the simple sense of right and wrong at the same age. I wonder if the teachers noticed a behavioral change in the children? I wonder if they were noted as potential psychopathic personalities? I wonder if the kids were given proper counseling to address anger issues.

I wonder a lot of things. All we know so far is that a Grandmother is dead, and the kids allegedly did it. There are so many questions that the courts must get answers to before we can make an informed choice.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:29 AM

58. International Juvenile Justice Practices

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_as_an_adult

The United States is one of few countries in the world where children can be tried as adults. For example, China will not prosecute any child under age 14 for any crime; Egypt does not hold any person under age 15 criminally responsible for crimes committed; and Albania does not try anyone in criminal court for crimes committed before age 18. In countries where prosecution of juveniles is possible, punishments and sentences are usually much less severe than those imposed in the United States. To illustrate, the sentence of life without parole for juveniles is a punishment only available in the United States.

Short-term consequences

Researchers found that juveniles housed in adult facilities are

5 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than youth held in juvenile detention centers
2 times more likely to be beaten by staff than youth held in juvenile detention centers
4.6 times more likely to commit suicide than the general adolescent population
7.7 times more likely to commit suicide than adolescents in juvenile detention centers

Additionally, juveniles who witness violence during incarceration, which is more likely in adult facilities, are less likely to be deterred from future crime.
Long-term consequences

Juveniles whose cases were seen in criminal court were more likely to reoffend and to reoffend sooner than matched samples of juveniles whose cases were seen in juvenile court.
Executions of juveniles

Since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976, 22 offenders have been executed in the United States for crimes committed during adolescence. However, in 2005 the juvenile death penalty was abolished, and cited as cruel and unusual punishment following the ruling of the Supreme Court in Roper v. Simmons.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:29 AM

60. they look like stoners =dont know where being under the influence would fit in

with trial as adult (if they were high on something at the time)
just sayin

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:32 AM

62. Yes. Absolutely. nt

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:03 AM

64. NO.

No way.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:40 AM

65. I think the age to be tried as an adult should be lowered, but no one under that tried as an adult

Say juvenile tryings and sentences apply only until 15 or 16. Of course someone who commits a brutal murder before that age shouldn't just be let out in 5 years with a clean record either, making juvenile sentencing possible to be tougher would also fix a lot of issues here.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:44 AM

66. Axe murderers are irredeemable trash.

Lock them up, life without parole.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:57 AM

68. Never. If they were capable of being adults they would have the rights and responsibilities as such

Reactionary and emotional thinking and highly logically inconsistent. What positive action can a 13 year perform that makes them an adult???

Exactly, its bullshit to satisfy blood lust and quell fear.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:59 AM

69. 15-20, 13years to 18/21 served....

In juvenile with the remainder in a state mental hospital/prison....parole based on the adult institutions recommendations....that's about as fair a sentence as I can envision....

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 08:50 AM

74. Heinousness and excusablity seem like separate issues from trial in adult court to me...

The notion that children are immature is what rationalizes the existence of juvenile court.

This question shouldn't hinge upon how horrible the crime they committed was (it was horrible), but rather on whether they acted with the maturity of an adult when they did it.

An emotionally based cry for vengence and maximum punishment from the community seems less than mature, rational judgement.





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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #74)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:41 PM

123. A refreshingly logical position

The heinousness of the act should not matter. What matters is whether the person knows wrong from right. It applies to murder a well as shoplifting or any other act. If the child is too young to fully understand the consequences of shoplifting, of playground assault and battery, or of pulling a trigger the same logic should apply.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 08:56 AM

75. No. A 13 year old is a child. What if the perpertrators had be 9?

There is no way that children of 13 should be tried as adults.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:06 AM

76. For me it depends on the depth of premeditation and response after


Impulsive acts or responses to present provocation make me more sympathetic to tracking a kid through the juvenile system.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:13 AM

77. No in my opinion.

Constitution proclaims equal protection in the 14th amendment. Treating one child offender differently to another and should be illegal.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Treating 13yr olds as adults is just a way of selective application of laws to deny some children of their rights. It has been shown many times that certain races do not get tried as adults for certain types of crimes as much as minorities do.

It is also estimated that each year well over 150,000 children get declared adults for criminal offenses most of them very minor offenses.

The big push for treating children as adults came along with the push to privatize our prisons. I believe it is tied to both a drive for profits and a way of minimizing cost to the state. None of which should be used to determine punishment.

It is punishment and we should be striving for rehabilitation. Child correction facilities are most likely to include at least some forms of rehabilitation.

Children tried as adults are much more likely to repeat offend or become career criminals. Children tried as adults are also more likely to become violent criminals.

Children tried as adults often do not get an education and are often abused in prison.



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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:19 AM

78. NO

not in any circumstance. A 13 year old is not an adult.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:21 AM

80. Definitely they s/b tried as adults. 13 is old enough to know NOT TO HATCHET PEOPLE!

They're a danger to society. These are the clowns that s/b in the For-Profit prisons, not pot smokers.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 10:29 AM

81. No. Thier brains are not yet developed to the point of an adults brain.

 

They can't grasp the consequences of their actions and their actions are often predicated by assumptions any adult would disregard.

An interesting exploration written by Yukio Mashima in '63 and the later movie explores this question.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #81)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:20 PM

97. They say the brain isn't fully developed until age 25.

Shall we not charge 24 year-olds as adults?

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:28 AM

83. You can defer to the wisdom of Ron Paul

... ‎”We don’t think a child of 13 should be held responsible as a man of 23. That’s true for most people, but black males age 13 who have been raised on the streets and who have joined criminal gangs are as big, strong, tough, scary and culpable as any adult and should be treated as such.”

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:30 AM

84. When it comes to murder, yes

anything else, the juvenile system is there for rehabilitation. But if someone is killing people at that age - I don't want to see them out free ever again. Possibly Ted Bundy killed people at a young age - it would have been a good thing to lock him up at that point.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:45 AM

87. My take on it

Obviously, something is dreadfully wrong with these two kids. Before debating whether or not they should be tried as juveniles or as adults, I would think that a SERIOUS psychological evaluation be conducted on them for weeks, if not months, to determine what triggered them to do something so heinous.

At 16, I'd have a completely different view of those kids. At 13, I have to think you really have to evaluate them to find out what is going on with them, and it could potentially help identify other children that might commit such acts of violence.

Letting them out at 18 should NOT be an option, and frankly, I don't think jail should be the option, either, until they have undergone serious counseling for at least a year or two so that they can understand why what they did was wrong, the consequences it has on their lives and the lives of others, and also, to take them out of an environment that clearly is not nurturing them to grow up to be productive individuals. They might not ever get to that point, but with counseling and medication (if necessary) they might.

Obviously something isn't right with their environment and with their family situation.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:01 PM

90. Is there a link for this story? nt

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:14 PM

94. Yes, on a case-by-case basis.

There are people under 18 who are predators as dangerous as any adult criminal, and society should be protected from them as such. If anyone doubts that, read up on Mary Bell.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:19 PM

96. Some kids are obvious proto-Psychopaths that can't be rehabilitated.

If they are released they will just kill again.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:25 PM

98. No.

Brains are not fully developed until age 25.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #98)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:17 PM

106. Teen psychopaths will still be psychopaths at 25.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:37 PM

101. Works for me. Those kids can't be fixed. nt

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:38 PM

102. No.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 12:46 PM

104. I prefer the accused, especially juviniles, be called accused until they are tried.

If we are discussing how they will be tried, they have not been convicted of anything, so calling them 13 year old murderers slants the question a tad.
When accused of a serious crime, how young is too young to try children as adults? Why not ask it that way?

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 01:19 PM

107. No. Unless you think they should also be able to do other adult things.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:50 PM

111. An axe murderer is an axe murderer.

 

You don't commit that kind of crime unless you're seriously fucked up. I would execute them.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #111)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:14 PM

129. You seriously want to execute middle school children?

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #129)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 12:13 AM

130. Why not?

 

There's no real difference between them and any other merciless psychopath. You can't beat someone's head to a pulp with a hammer and dismember them with an axe and ever be expected to be a normal member of society. What difference does their age make? Some people are just rotten. Would it make you feel better if we waited until they were 18 or 21 to do it?

These guys will never be anything but a burden on society and prison life is horrible in general. It's probably more merciful to kill them now.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #130)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 09:52 PM

132. I agree

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #111)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:09 PM

137. You would have to undo constitutional law to get your blood thirst on.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #137)

Mon Oct 8, 2012, 12:16 AM

141. Well, I'm not going to do anything.

 

Constitutionally or otherwise. I'm pretty much indifferent outside of the thread. All I'm saying is what I think should happen. I really don't care if it does or not. Blood thirst? Hardly.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:19 PM

120. God, it's topics like this that make me glad I don't live in the U.S.

Do people even realize how fucking backwards it is to try and punish children like adults. YOU are responsible for your fucked up justice system.....you blame republicans, and politicians, but the first chance you are given any case with minimal information, it's. "PUNISH THEM. LOCK EM UP. FUCK EM".

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Response to Evoman (Reply #120)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:00 PM

127. In what earthly paradise of a nation do you find your abode? nt

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Response to Evoman (Reply #120)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:15 PM

138. yep, we should do as in your country...take them aside and talk with them very seriously...

tell them what a bad thing they did, but we understand that they didn't think it through, or even realize that it was wrong. We then should tell them...no...teach them that murder is wrong, especially with things like hatchets and such!
Well...first we should understand their reasons for doing it, to better teach them.

then we can take them out for a milkshake and a movie.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 08:08 PM

124. I hate these bull shit threads.........

You are either a regressive nut bag that wants to kill these evil Children or you must be a tree hugging liberal. Here are the facts, the level of maturity for 13 year olds, in most cases, are way less then an Adult and they do not have a complete grip on reality at that age, nor are they capable of it. Without diminishing the terrible thing that they did, no one can make the case that they should be treated as Adults, in my opinion. For the sake of God these kids killed and then went for Pizza. Kids in this Country used to be treated with deference base on their age. Now, there is this trend in the country for mindless, authoritarian retribution. Regressive thinkers heads hurt when they are asked to think in nuances.

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Response to SILVER__FOX52 (Reply #124)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 12:49 AM

131. +1

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 08:58 PM

126. NO

they are NOT ADULTS

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:03 PM

133. They are not adults. A teenage brain has a lot of developing to do.

They very well may be extremely different people in a decade. Revenge is a not useful mindset for an effective justice system, rehabilitation should be the first priority especially with teenagers.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:07 PM

134. Neither are facing life without the possibility of parole.

The Supreme Court recently held juveniles cannot be sentenced to life without parole.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304870304577488463493204408.html

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:09 PM

136. No- a 13 year old is never an adult

They do not have adult brains or adult emotions.

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Response to Archae (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 10:22 PM

139. Brain development at 13 years old...

It should be plenty developed to know that killing your great grandmother with a hammer and a hatchet and then robbing her is wrong.

yes it is not fully developed, but in my opinion, has developed along a path that is far beyond acceptable and can not be brought to an acceptable track.

Yes, go ahead and try them as juveniles and put them out of society forever.

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