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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMom of 4 reflects on first year in prison for $31 pot sale
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20111226_11_A1_CUTLIN819265
Mom of 4 reflects on first year in prison for $31 pot sale
Patricia Spottedcrow has served one year of her prison sentence. Listen to Spottedcrow talk about her life, while her family talks about life without her.
TAFT - Wearing prison-issue yellow clothes, Patricia Spottedcrow reflects on her first year in prison through the lens of tears and determination.
One year ago, on the week of Christmas, the first-time offender was checked into the Eddie Warrior women's prison - the first holiday away from her four young children.
"I cried and cried just thinking of my kids opening presents on Christmas and I wasn't there," she said. "This year, it's going to be any other day. I try not to keep up with days in here."
At her mother's home in Kingfisher, there is a somber tone among her children - ages 2, 4, 5 and 10.
"We're crying here too," said her mother, Delita Starr. "We'll try to make sure there is money in her account for a phone call. What else can we do?"
Spottedcrow, 26, was arrested and charged for selling $31 in marijuana to a police informant in December 2009 and January 2010. Starr, 51, was also charged.
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geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)What ever happened to the concept of proportionality? That the sentence should fit the crime.
on edit- not only is justice blind, it is ignorant as well.
Response to geckosfeet (Reply #1)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
Patiod
(11,816 posts)No, Big Pharma doesn't give a shit about marijuana. They are way too busy buying our Congress and making sure drug prices/profits stay high. I'm in the belly of the beast, and trust me, they just don't care.
They don't see marijuana use as a big threat to their profits. They know that the biggest users of Rx drugs - old people - are NOT going to want to substitute pot for their Rx meds.
Response to Patiod (Reply #174)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
Patiod
(11,816 posts)Last edited Tue Oct 2, 2012, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)
Police departments really, really, really oppose it because they can make lots of money on raids at very little cost. Lots and lots of people are making lots and lots of money locking up marijuana users, and they are the ones driving anti-legalization.
It's just not on Big Pharma's radar.
Blame Big Pharma for a lot of things (like high drug prices or working against single-payer health care), but there are a lot of Dr. Evil-esque things that they're NOT doing, like sitting on cures for cancer and diabetes, and secretly dumping tons of money into opposing medical marijuana. And that's the stuff I'm fed up with hearing about them.
As I mentioned, people are not going to give up all their drugs and be "cured" with medical marijuana. It provides decent pain relief to some, and is a far better anti-emetic than any current Rx drug, and it's been shown to give some glaucoma relief. But it's not a threat to the biggest-selling drugs. Medical marijuana might supplement some of them, but it's not going to miraculously lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol, prevent stroke from arrhythmia, help with congestive heart failure, or do most of the other stuff that blockbuster Rx drugs do.
It's not going to replace prescriptions for those who need to be sharp for work, or for children. And it's just not appropriate for the very old, who consume such a high percent of prescriptions. COPD patients aren't going to be smoking ANYTHING. Doctors (many of whom really like the idea of providing marijuana to cancer patients to help with chemo AEs) are very uncomfortable with old people using it, saying they don't want them using something that going to add to their confusion, or might in any way endanger their sense of balance.
And if marijuana turns out to have miracle tumor-killing properties, there will be SOME pharmacompany or biotech that will jump right on putting that it in a standardized form. "Big Pharma" is not so monolithic that if there's a new development like Cancer-Curing Pot, that some company isn't going to want to research that, patent it, and produce a standardized form of it. The heads of every single pharma company, big and small, are not sitting in some star chamber somewhere decreeing that they have declared War on Pot.
Edit to explain: I've worked with most of the big Pharma companies and a bunch of little ones at all levels of management for many, many years. I've worked cannabinoid receptor agonist projects for them. And I know what they worry about (because what they worry about is what they pay me to look into). The worry a lot about changes to insurance or government health care programs. They do not worry about pot.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Like something out of Les Miserables.
Totally fucked.
When will we rise up and stop this monstrous abuse of the 99%?
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)
former9thward
(31,981 posts)In the 1960s that was not available. You had to go to the streets to make yourself heard. Now you can just post on the internet on sites which are read by people who already agree with you.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)
TYY
lib2DaBone
(8,124 posts)Not one person has served a day for Fast and Furious.. shipping guns to drug Cartels... where police officers and civilians were murdered.
Yet we put a mother of 4 in jail for $31 in MJ?
WTF?
Response to lib2DaBone (Reply #4)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
Butterbean
(1,014 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)the modern Jim Crow.
dougolat
(716 posts)or become an informant, like the poor shlub she sold to.
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #8)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)I guess even this red state could see -- once this came to the attention of the public -- that a twelve year sentence for a pot sale is nuts.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=487&articleid=20120721_11_A1_ULNSar345814
Gov. Mary Fallin has agreed to early release for inmate Patricia Spottedcrow, a young mother whose story of a lengthy sentence for a small marijuana deal was featured in a Tulsa World series on Women in Prison.
Under the governor's stipulations, Spottedcrow will be required to complete 120 days at a community-level Department of Corrections facility before she is released.
Spottedcrow, 27, was originally handed a 12-year sentence in a blind plea before a judge for selling $31 worth of marijuana to a police informant. It was a first-time offense, but because children were in Spottedcrow's home when she was arrested, a charge was added for possession of a dangerous substance in the presence of a minor.
Last year, a Kingfisher County judge reduced Spottedcrow's sentence by four years. The Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board agreed to review Spottedcrow's case in April and voted 5-0 to recommend early release.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Parole Board confusion: Patricia Spottedcrow transferred back to prison
OKLAHOMA CITY — The Department of Corrections has been juggling at least one high-profile inmate because of some confusion at the State Pardon and Parole Board this week.
The Pardon and Parole Board has been tangled in controversy after allegations that Board members were holding meetings in which inmate parole was discussed, in violation of state law.
It allegedly happened during a so-called “secret docket” where inmates were granted early placement on a parole docket by board members, in a process the board calls “Pre-Docket Investigation.”
Read KFOR’s original Aug. 8 report here.
The allegations came to light after Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater sent the board a letter notifying them that the practice was a violation of the state Open Meetings Act.
Prater believes the Board was also over-stepping its authority to parole certain offenders, those convicted of 85 percent crimes.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)It sounds like this could be resolved in short order, with a bit of will. Prater is going to have to take specific legal action if he has a problem with the scope of the Board's authority, so they'd do well to hustle that meeting along.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)her parole status once again -- from "parole withdrawn" to "parole suspended."
They're torturing this poor woman!
http://kfor.com/2012/08/28/parole-board-confusion-patricia-spottedcrow-transferred-back-to-prison/
News Channel 4 has learned that the Pardon and Parole Board may have also made some illegal changes to the status of some inmates whose parole has been called into question by the investigation.
SNIP
The Department of Corrections confirms Spottedcrow’s offender status was changed to “Parole Recommendation withdrawn” last week.
Spottedcrow was in the middle of her 120 days when the Pardon and Parole Board made the abrupt change to her status, apparently causing her to be sent back to prison.
SNIP
In another bizarre twist, Tuesday as Spottedcrow was being transported back to prison, her parole recommendation status changed again.
Within an hour of News Channel 4?s inquiry, Spottedcrow’s status changed to “Parole Recommendation Suspended.”
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)He was a chronic smoker of marijuana and he turned out to be a high achieving success.
How can he sit back and allow this crushing oppression to be practiced against poor, black and brown people without doing something? For me, I find it unforgivable.
Millions of already fragile lives are ruined for generations by this sick policy and he does not speak out -nor do I expect him to even when he is a lame duck. What does this say about him? About us?
------------------
Now a soon-to-be published biography by David Maraniss entitled “Barack Obama: The Story” gives more detail on Obama’s pot-smoking days, complete with testimonials from young Barry Obama’s high school buddies, a group that went by the name “the Choom Gang.” Choom was slang for smoking marijuana.
Maraniss portrays the teenage Obama as not just a pot smoker, but a pot-smoking innovator.
“As a member of the Choom Gang,” Maraniss writes, “Barry Obama was known for starting a few pot-smoking trends.”
The first Obama-inspired trend: “Total Absorption” or “TA”.
“TA was the opposite of Bill Clinton’s claim that as a Rhodes scholar at Oxford he smoked dope but never inhaled,” explains Maraniss. Here’s how it worked: If you exhaled prematurely when you were with the Choom Gang, “you were assessed a penalty and your turn was skipped the next time the joint came around.”
As one of Obama’s old high school buddies tells Maraniss: “Wasting good bud smoke was not tolerated.”
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)anything on marijuana when he had a Congress that was refusing to pass measures that Republicans had always in the past approved of? Much less measures -- like marijuana bills -- that Republicans had never favored?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The public is behind legalization or decriminilization.
He had the support. People worked hard for it. He was pushed as he requested. He had cover.
He did not speak out. He did not lead. He closed his eyes and ears to the injustice that preys on the under-advantaged.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)If you don't try, how do you know?
And besides, if something is wrong, terribly wrong, it is the mark of a leader and of a person with morals to speak out EVEN IF it won't accomplish anything and EVEN IF it puts you in some danger (in this case, the danger would merely be political and really, that is not actual danger).
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)anything worthwhile. If anything, it would have made his health care initiative (which was important to many more people) even harder to pass, because of the wave of publicity that would have ensued.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)A leader leads and speaks out. No one can accurately predict the results when speaking out against injustice.
As I said, the support for legalization is there and he likely would pick up a bunch of on the fence Libertarians too.
And "changing the debate" is precisely the only thing that will change things.
The grass-roots support is there, but a figure with political weight must now have the courage to confront this madness.
We thought he was the guy and I am disappointed in what is either coldly calculated political maneuvering or cowardly failure to speak out.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)Healthcare for all Americans, and pushing for equal rights for LGBT, were more important than getting marijuana legalized.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)That's really just speculation on your part.
CthulhusEvilCousin
(209 posts)To be fair to Obama, I suspect he has not come out on issues like this due to the pressures of having to maintain a certain level of credibility to win re-election. Marijuana legalization was used to hound Ron Paul and other libertarians to the fringes of political support, especially by conservatives who specialize in legislating morality. The last thing you want is news stories everyday or accusations by the Republicans that Obama was a chronic alleged drug abuser. I also see this as one of the reasons why Obama has not come out more strongly against his own foreign policy, which I believe is a manifestation of the necessity to remain "strong" on military matters due to the Republicans politicizing everything.
Now, does that mean Obama is very brave for not coming out for it? No, on the contrary, it's fear that keeps him from coming out. However, considering his motivations for the healthcare law and other things, he is likely to come down on this side after a win against Romney, as 2016 wouldn't matter. It'll be up to us to really push these issues with our local congressmen and to the President himself once this race is over. A President is not a one man army, and as Obama said before, "change" must ultimately come from the public TOWARDS Washington, and not the other way around.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)pnwmom
(108,976 posts)marijuana legalized than Obama would.
Just like Richard Nixon was the one who could finally get diplomatic relations with China.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)
Ghost in the Machine
(14,912 posts)In 1910, the Mormon Church in synod in Salt Lake City decreed polygamy to be a religious mistake and it was banned as a matter of the Mormon religion. Once that happened, there was a crackdown on people who wanted to live in what they called "the traditional way". So, just after 1910, a fairly large number of Mormons left the state of Utah, and indeed left the United States altogether and moved into northwest Mexico. They wrote a lot about what they wanted to accomplish in Mexico. They wanted to set up communities where they were basically going to convert the Indians, the Mexicans, and what they referred to as "the heathen" in the neighborhood to Mormonism.
By 1914, they had had very little luck with the heathen, but our research shows now beyond question that the heathen had a little luck with them. What happened apparently -- now some of you who may be members of the church, you know that there are still substantial Mormon communities in northwest Mexico -- was that, by and large most of the Mormons were not happy there, the religion had not done well there, they didn't feel comfortable there, they wanted to go back to Utah where there friends were and after 1914 did.
And with them, the Indians had given them marijuana. Now once you get somebody back in Utah with the marijuana it all becomes very easy, doesn't it? You know that the Mormon Church has always been opposed to the use of euphoriants of any kind. So, somebody saw them with the marijuana, and in August of 1915 the Church, meeting again in synod in Salt Lake City decreed the use of marijuana contrary to the Mormon religion and then -- and this is how things were in Utah in those days -- in October of 1915, the state legislature met and enacted every religious prohibition as a criminal law and we had the first criminal law in this country's history against the use of marijuana.
http://www.druglibrary.org/olsen/dpf/whitebread05.html
A lot more interestng information at the above link...
Peace,
Ghost
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)Health care is important to many, many more people. And LGBT rights is a matter of human dignity.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)850,000 people per year are arrested for minor drug offenses, mostly possession. Nearly one million.
How much damage this does to people's lives is something that we can only guess, but it must be profound.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)Sooner or later, this dam is going to break.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)MASS. where I lived decriminilized pretty heavily.
It is not unlike the Gay Marriage movement which began locally and then the National Politicians were eventually forced to deal with it.
But it is extra frustrating to see dispensaries raided and the like in the face of such a clear mandate from the people.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)That is the worst part of all of this.
Response to pnwmom (Reply #50)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Bonobo (Reply #41)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Low hanging fruit always gets picked first. The drug wars are in many ways like corporate crime. Those who can make the cost to prosecute them the highest always are troubled the least.
Around here they have actually pulled away from the biggest threat to safe neighborhoods and happy lives, meth, and have devoted even more of their time to medical marijuana. Turns out that the cost to clean-up the meth labs after they have been busted is pretty high and the possibility exists that cost can be passed on to the department. And that, well, that will not stand. Far easier to flip open the yellow pages, scope out the nearest MMJ dispensary and accrue 100's of hours of OT planning the assault in full battle regalia. Minor clean-up costs, no dangerous field work and all the accolades the Applebee's bar can muster on a Tuesday night.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)He could have started there. Instead he amped them up.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)Spottedcrow spent just a few minutes at Eddie Warrior on Tuesday.
Prison guards sent her back to Hillside almost immediately after her arrival because of the change in her parole status.
“I turned around to get my handcuffs off and they’re like, ‘Uh, get back on the bus; you’re going back to Hillside,’” Spottedcrow said.
Spottedcrow was not able to start her new work-release job at Sonic this week because of this latest problem with her parole status.
She is hoping to start work by the end of the week.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But it is one story among millions...;. 
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)all over the country.
Here's an open Facebook page I found for her. It doesn't say much, but she is back in the work-release center and her expected release date is November 12. I hope she doesn't have any more trips on the judicial roller coaster.
https://www.facebook.com/OKSPIRIT/posts/284530708327305
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Response to joshcryer (Reply #159)
Bonobo This message was self-deleted by its author.
yardwork
(61,588 posts)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)it's really simple. If you don't want to be away from your children during the holidays, don't sell pot during the holidays.
Selling pot is illegal. People who sell pot frequently go to jail. Everybody knows this.
Don't want to spend the holidays in jail? Don't sell pot. Simple.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It completely ignores the lack of justice wrt the punishment vs. the crime.
Punishment fitting the crime is a vital part of the "justice system" --something which your post does not reflect one whit.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)If this was a 18-year-old gang member, I'm betting we wouldn't be seeing the same reaction.
18-year-old gang member, mother of four...sell pot, go to jail. (and the gang member would have probably gotten a harsher punishment)
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)for selling less than an ounce of weed? That's just as fucked up as the case of a mother of four. The sentence is disproportionate and insane.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)12 years seems a little steep to me, too, but she didn't do herself any favors.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Meanwhile if she was drinking 6 cans of Budweiser a night in front of her kids, that'd be A-OK. And ditto if she showed up in court with a pint of Jack Daniel's in her handbag.
Am I the only one who sees a bit of blatant hypocrisy here?
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)Regardless of your personal feelings, pot is illegal, Jack is not. Whine about it all you want, it's gonna be that way until the law changes.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)because..."it's illegal". The larger question is, "should it be?", which you seem to treat as irrelevant, not to mention the issue of disproportionate sentencing.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)I don't think so, but there are municipalities in which it's a violation of city ordinances. If you live in that city and don't wear a helmet when riding your bike, it doesn't matter if the law is right or wrong, you're breaking the law.
Selling pot is illegal. Even in states with medical marijuana allowances, you need a license. This woman was a drug dealer and she was prosecuted as such.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)Don't like the law? Get it changed.
Until then, it's the law. If you intentionally break it (especially if you do it in a splendidly stupid manner) you should espect to pay the consequences.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)"there are municipalities in which it's a violation of city ordinances."
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)So what else have you got?
Your statement that it will be that way until the law changes is utterly obvious and redundant since that is what we are discussing.
progressoid
(49,978 posts)Most of us see the hypocrisy.
And if enough of us "whine" about it, the laws will get changed.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Fyi, the word 'whine' is generally used by right wingers to attack 'liberals' with, it is part of the Limbaugh anti-liberal dialogue, absorbed into their language by his army of clueless, non-thinking ditto heads. I think we are a bit above that level of discourse here, or should be.
Having said that, your attitude seems either totally defeatist or worse, dismissive of what is generally accepted as gross injustice towards human beings and therefore not acceptable in a civilized society.
Your position appears to be: 'Just accept it, it's the law and you are to blame for it'.
No, we are NOT to blame for bad laws nor should we abide by them. If people had accepted your blase 'just accept it' attitude regarding other bad laws, African Americans would still be unable to vote.
Thanks but no thanks to your dismissive attitude towards bad laws. We are supposed to FIGHT them, not ACCEPT them. In fact everyone should violate them, as a form of protest, and everyone who is on a jury for a drug charge, should vote against conviction.
The Drug laws are an abomination and a total undermining of the US Constitution. It's not the first time in our history that bad laws were instituted and later rescinded. But bad laws do NOT get rescinded UNLESS people 'whine' as you call it. I call it 'advocate for changing unjust and bad laws'.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)He simply said if we don't want to be punished, we should follow them, while fighting against them, until they are over-turned. Not a real difficult concept (or so I thought).
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)that a woman selling a few dollars worth of a harmless weed deserves to spend 12 years in prison. That is not someone who supports changing laws, that is someone who has a dislike for poor, minority women who end up in jail under these draconian laws who NO ONE in any democracy should in any way try to justify.
There is NO justification for the sentence she received, and anyone who attempts to dismiss it as this poster did, who takes it so lightly, is part of the problem and one of the reasons we have come to this stage in our sad history.
We should NOT abide by bad laws, we should violate them en masse in major protests across the country, IF we had any spine. But the poster you refer to is more representative of Americans today who have succumbed to the authoritarian, prison state which came about as a result of the Drug Laws and has continued to decline ever since.
Just how do you change laws that are only in place for profit? How do you suggest getting those responsible and who are profiting hugely, to give up those profits, IF we don't revolt against their draconian laws as a nation?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)He CLEARLY said he thought 12 years was way too much. His point however, is that there is a sure fire way to ensure you are not even put in a situation to get 12 years in jail - don't sell weed in front of your children.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)that no one in this country should be facing that 'surefire' way to not spend Christmas with their children for such a minor offense. People are rightly, including the parole board, outraged. He apparently did not share that outrage. If we were all to adapt his attitude there will be no change in these outrageous laws. He stated clearly he would not be standing up for this woman which means he is okay with what most rational people are clearly not okay with.
Anyhow, it appears he is no longer here so it is not relevant anymore.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Without DUI, it's typically less than a year if there's any jail time at all. I lost a friend to a sober and very reckless driver who got no jail time. There's a local case here where a sober 17 year-old plead out as a juvenile after he killed a father and daughter who were ON THE SIDEWALK after he lost control while traveling at 70 MPH in a 45 MPH zone. His car was also uninsured. The DA views this sentence as a victory because as a juvenile he may be held until age 21. Had he been tried as an adult he likely would have served less than one year.
On no planet is selling a small amount of pot in a household with children worthy of a 12 year sentence.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)At least from me. 12 years for $31 of pot and you're defending this. I see you were also defending parents' rights to ship their kids off to a "pray away the gay" clinic in LBN. You're just not real big on civil liberties, are you?
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)I just don't define imprisoning a drug dealer as a violation of their civil liberties.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)someone selling 5 lbs. of crack cocaine and someone selling 3 grams of a dried plant. Others have pointed out to you repeatedly about proportionality. I have no reason to believe you'd be swayed by anything I have to say. I'm glad you're comfortable in your yes/no, black/white, right/wrong insulated world. Me? I've always been partial to shades of grey -- it broadens my world.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)She was dealing in a house with four small children and she actually brought drugs into the courthouse when she showed up for her trial.
Characterizing a belief that this woman deserves to be jailed as a product of a "yes/no, black/white, right/wrong insulated world" isn't honest, in my opinion.
If you want to crusade for this woman, feel free. You can call me whatever names you like, I choose not to.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)the concept of proportionality. I'm done here.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)Mitigating circumstances (IIRC) work in your favor. Aggravating circumstances do the opposite.
For example, being under the influence of alcohol during the commission of a crime is an aggravating factor.
Slamming into a parked car because you swerved to avoid a pedestrian is a mitigating factor.
BTW, I completely agree with you. We can talk all day about how stupid the sentencing laws are, but until they change, this is what happens.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)since you support allowing the abusive practice of trying to make them something other than gay.
which doesn't sound like someone who supports civil liberties.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I know what supporters of Civil Rights look like.
This is what they don't look like:
Ashgrey77
(236 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Let's not look at the particulars of any given case, because it's all simple.
Let's not talk about poverty or race or class or differential justice or anything like that. It's just the pathological individual.
I don't know very many first offenders anywhere who get prison sentences for dime bag pot sales. Though this was Oklahoma, right? That figures. That's a state that likes to hand down 1500 year sentences.
mythology
(9,527 posts)they also aren't exactly a state secret. She had to have known the potential consequences. Whether they are fair or not is irrelevant to the fact that they are. I find it hard to develop a lot of sympathy for people who make poor choices. I look at it like speeding. If you do it, you might get a ticket the first time or in 5 years. But you can't really complain about getting a ticket for speeding.
If you want to point to the disparity of sentences for minorities, again that's something that should be addressed, but if you aren't selling drugs, you're a lot less likely to be convicted of selling them black or white.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)What really can you say to a person that says they have no sympathy for a mother of 4 young children who was sentenced to 12 years in prison for selling probably a couple of grams of cannabis?
Do you feel sympathy for the children then if not for the mother?
Anyway, like I said... not real point in discussing with someone that has so little sympathy or empathy. I would say we are too different, if you really feel that way, for any exchange of views.
Bye.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)This is a borderline Darwin issue.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I don't think so.
She could have forgotten it.
She could have not expected to have her bag searched.
Either way, I don't think it is an invitation to having 12 years of her freedom taken from her and it certainly does not make me less sympathetic to her plight.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)Who "forgets"that they're carrying pot...especially into a courthouse where you're on trial for selling pot?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Inexcusable from a human perspective? Not by any means.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)Carry pot into a courthouse where you're being tried for dealing pot? You deserve what you get. At least we know that she won't procreate for the next 12 years.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Anyone that thinks that a mother should be deprived of her 4 young children and that children should be deprived of their mother for 12 years for possessing cannabis is someone that I think society would be FAR better off without.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)How fit a mother is she?
SHE CARRIED POT INTO A COURTHOUSE WHERE SHE WAS ON TRIAL FOR DEALING POT.
I'm not going to get all weepy about 4 children not being able to be nurtured by an idiot.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)Relax your rat radar, Sherlock. I've been here forever. I may be unconventional, but I think I've been vetted.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)You tipped your hand.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)You know my soul.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)when your actions and opinions are idiotic?
Paladin
(28,252 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"At least we know that she won't procreate for the next 12 years."
That's the kind of drivel I'm used to hearing on right-wing talk radio. It's embarrassing to see it here.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)When I read that comment I just went 
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)to get one of his buddies to screw the gay out of his daughter. Having no trouble defending the grey areas you saw in that statement.
But when it comes to this it is all black and white.
You sound more like the RWingers I have to interact with in real life living here in Georgia and less like D let alone a progressive or a liberal.
You didn't respond to me in that thread so I don't expect a responce in this one either.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)for this kind of first offense, not twelve years behind bars.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)...and most people don't show up at court with pot in their jacket pocket.
The selling in the home with kids present is what got her the time.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)12 years for selling $10 dollars worth of pot in front of a kid (the balance was in a different transaction) seems insane. We don't have enough prisons to put all the potentially guilty parties in jail.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)What does the kids being there have to do with the need to take away her liberty?
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)I do.
Apparently, the judge did, too.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you are on the "fringe" here.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=251644
"This is a clusterfuck that I believe is best left alone. As long as nobody is mandating "treatment" like this, people shouldn't be legally barred from seeking this course of action or selecting it for their children."
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)Yep, I have some views that are unpopular with the fringe folks here.
You don't have to like it. Feel free to ignore me if I offend your sensibilities.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)and neither is cannabis legalization.
As for the stalker bit, yawn. Moral and ethical inconsistencies like you've displayed stick out like a sore thumb. Try again.
Try harder.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And you don't have to like it either.
After all, it ain't "against the law". Right?
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)I didn't even imply that I needed to grant permission or that there was a rules issue.
Frankly, I was amused.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Oh fer chrissakes. First off, you're not that important so get the fuck over yourself. Second, *I* saw the same posts as the poster above and I'm sure he/she, just as I JUST HAPPENED to click on the same OP here. The poster above me had it right, when you blatantly ignore civil liberties on DU it kinda sticks out like a sore thumb, ya know?
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)Somebody referenced one of my posts from another thread. I was (obviously unsuccessfully) poking fun at people who scream "stalker" whenever somebody winds up talking to them in multiple threads. I've been here forever. I'm not that thin-skinned.
I'll allow that the issue to which I believe you're referring has multiple civil liberties issues. I believe that we're just supporting different sides of the coin.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)With intention, I believe. There is a word for that.
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)we aren't fringe at all.
half the California legislature banned it.
think of that, the state containing more Americans than any other state passes something with a strong majority, it gets signed by a governor who won by a landslide, and you're calling the view "fringe".
very transparent on your part.
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)It was DU posters from the entire Liberal/Dem spectrum doing that, and not just LGBT posters, whom I guess are "fringe folks," too.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts) Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Selling a little weed in your own house is a crime that should result in your being taken away from your children for as many years the court wants. And if you are dumb enough to carry it in a courtroom, you should further not be able to procreate. Apparently it is such a damaging example to children that it is better if the children and mother be separated for entire childhood.
BUT if a parent who hates gay people wants to send their kids to a camp where they will be taught to despise their true natures and be traumatized and terrorized, that is okay.
Check. I get the picture of the poster and I don't like it one bit.
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)If you know the law and are stupid enough not only to break it by dealing pot in front of your kids and then actually carry pot into the courthouse where you're being tried for dealing pot, yeah..you pretty much shouldn't procreate.
I have my views on gay people. I believe it's who they are and not some "choice". I believe that the law should in NO way discriminate between gay and straight people.
I also realize that there are people who have different views. I believe that everybody should have the right to raise their children in the manner they see fit, even if I don't agree with their views. I have a personal line at which I consider those rights to end (denying medical care, abuse) but those are just my personal views. I err on the side of personal freedoms (even for those with whom I don't agree) and I don't personally see sending somebody to one of these programs (a parental right which I reluctantly support) to something like a clitoridectomy (which I view as true physical abuse).
My line may be in a different place than your line, but you have a line...and there's somebody out there who has as big an issue with your line as you do with mine.
I'm not attempting to preach gospel. These are my personal views. If they offend you, feel free to ignore me.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)Psychologically abusing kids is okay and makes you a caring parent, but selling pot with your kids around should get you twelve in the slammer. Personally, I think sending your kids ti Ex Gay Therapy is way worse.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)jeez.
and no, I wouldn't want a gang member to serve 12 years for selling a joint. for being violent, for using weapons, etc., sure, but for a small, petty drug crime, no.
waste of my effing money.
you want to give the rich tax cuts? then you pay for these prison sentences yourself.
nevermind if we actually gave the tax cuts you wanted, medicaid would probably reduced to we can keep nonviolent offenders like her in prison as you are demanding.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts) 
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)/me types "MercutioATC" into Advanced Search, looks at the results.
Yep! Confimed!
/me adds MercutioATC to my troll list...
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Response to Romulox (Reply #134)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
tridim
(45,358 posts)So it's not that simple.
MFM008
(19,805 posts)here in WA next month. Its obscene ......
msongs
(67,395 posts)
ChaoticTrilby
(211 posts)That just makes me even more proud of my home state.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)I left a message that I would like to send this family a little money every month, if I could find out where to send it. Left my phone number and my name. Hopefully, she responds and gives me enough info so that I can send a check or money order. It would be something, a small thing, they can depend on every month. They sure can't depend on justice in this country.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)
Shampoobra
(423 posts)Please PM me if you can find out how to send funds to this family
Thank you
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)For pot. 12 years. There are people who have been convicted of MANSLAUGHTER given less than that. Obama should give her a pardon IMMEDIATELY. $31.00 worth of pot. 12 years. I can't even believe this is still happening.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)here's another good one, actually written by the woman herself who was busted,
for a 1/2 joint and 2-3 shrooms, in a drawer, in her boyfriend's house, who she
had just that day moved in with. She is a writer herself, and uses her craft to
make a string of incisive observations from her experience. She was "luckier"
than Ms. Spottedcrow, not getting a long sentence, but the story is reviting and
really exposes the gross and insane injustice of this nasty War on Drugs shit.
God help us. Legalize.
http://jbennettrylah.com/how-to-get-arrested-without-really-trying-or-fuck-the-police-or-fuck-the-war-on-drugs/
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)leading otherwise productive & relatively happy lives, working, falling in love, raising kids, making art,
enjoying their supposedly "inalienable right" to pursue happiness ..
.. now socked away, into private prisons on contract with local governments, contracts which demand a
90% occupancy rate, or the gov't has to pay that much anyway, as if there actually WERE 90% filled
up with broken lives.
How could this have been going on so quietly, that we didn't all wake up and put a stop to it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And when you are out of it, you don't even want to think about it.
Or maybe it is because it is an insulated system that no one can touch.
Lots of people know it is happening, but they don't talk about it if they are leading normal lives because it is so UGLY and a shameful thing....?
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)He had nothing to do with this case, but he knows the facts. When the cop went in to buy the drugs, she didn't have change. She made her little kid get her change from his PIGGY BANK. She was having her kid help her deal drugs. There were some other things that I can't remember, but this entire case is NOT about $31 worth of pot. She did some shit during her arrest that endangered her children and that went into play with the sentencing. They aren't telling you everything that happened, and of course, as usual, everyone is just running with the simplest thing. This is NOT a simple case.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Are you saying the cops were attacking her? Cause if not, what would "shield" even mean?
And assuming she DID hold a kid in front of her, what exactly would be the charge?
The suggestion that she got sentenced for 12 years because of what she did when the cops came sounds like bullshit.
You can only be charged and sentenced for the crime. There is no "extra" time for how she acted when the cops came.
"Did some shit" during her arrest. Sounds suspicious but I can totally understand why a cop would want/need to convince themselves this was righteous so they could look themselves in the mirror and keep telling themselves they're still the "good guys".
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)Sorry. I've seen about 150 child welfare cases since I spoke to anyone about this. I made a mistake.
But she WAS having her kid help her deal the drugs. She had him making change from his PIGGY BANK. That's worthless and shitty.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Let's say he handed her 2 twenties (for example) and she had her kid bring the $10 bill she knew he had in his bank and gave him a twenty to put back in it.
What's the big deal about that scenario even if its true?
Worthless and shitty? Is it really? I don't think so. Could you tell me what you think is worthless and shitty about it?
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)Really? You think it is OK to do that? That's douche-baggery. I guess we have a different idea of how children should be treated. PARENTS should not be putting their children in danger by dealing drugs in front of them. THEN they shouldn't be having them MAKE CHANGE for their drug deal. What kind of morals do you have when you think it is OK for a mother to treat her kid like that? "Honey, could you please go get your birthday money so mom can help this man score a dime bag?" Which was more like, "Get your ass to your room and bring me your birthday money. I need to make change." You do not deal with these scumbags like I do on a day to day basis. These drug dealers would exchange their kids for a bag of drugs in a second if they were guaranteed enough money from it. You guys have no idea. I could blow your mind with some of the shit I've seen just the three and a half months I've been working for Child Welfare. You have no idea how these people behave (Drug dealers. Not Native Americans). You guys see a sweet young mother of two and offer to send them money. You guys don't have the whole story. I'd bet you a hundred bucks granny is still dealing out of the house with the kids there.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)My morals are great. Ask my wife, my kids and anyone who knows me.
But let me throw that turd back at you, pal.
I think part of the problem is that people like you have been at their job so long that they begin to see clients as the "them" and not "us". Like cops who think everyone else is a scumbag or a douchebag. I've heard people rap like you and I know te mentality.
Child welfare, huh. 150 cases, working really hard.... if only "they" weren't around, life would be so grand.
...Come back tot he office, feet tired, talk to everyone in the office about what scumbags you just had to deal with... I can imagine how it is.
And yup all those "drug dealers" would all sell their kids for a score, huh? Meth, Coke, Mushrooms, Ecstacy, Weed, its all the same to you. They're just scum who don't care about their kids, huh?
But no, I don't think that a couple of grams of weed is the same as being a meth dealer and I don't think that making change from your kids piggie bank is a big deal if all other things are equal. If the kid has love, a room with a piggie back (money came from mom after all) and a grandma around.
So no, think what you like. But I don't see smoking weed as an evil thing and so I don't see making change even from your kid's piggy bank is a big deal. We didn't say she robbed the piggy bank to buy meth, did we?
Anyway, good luck to your clients. Hope those scumbags you have to deal with get run over by a bus.
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)The clients I was speaking of also treat their kids like possessions. There is no true LOVE there. It's power, control and themselves to them. And then there are the child rapists.
And yes, there is a difference between meth dealers and weed dealers. But BOTH put their kids in danger. There are some crazy people who come knocking to score. You HAVE to admit that everyone who does weed isn't exactly stable. Most are. Most are just recreational users and are fine. But there are a few who use it because it's easy to find until they can get the harder stuff and they are DANGEROUS.
I focus on those kids and getting them homes that care about them. I keep in close contact with their foster parents or kinship placements so any issues they have get addressed immediately. Sure I vilify a lot of those people because they deserve it. But if you're OK looking at those people with sympathy and misguided empathy, maybe it's not MY deal.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)90% of the problem is the fact that self-medicating has been criminalized, forcing people into lives of crime. Then, when they get caught, the system tears the family apart, increasing the trauma.
I sure wouldn't want your job.
Pot users shouldn't be thrown in prison for minor offenses like that. Efforts should be made to keep families together.
And what you said about that grandma, sight unseen, actually disgusted me.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)In many cases, the family NEEDS to be torn apart. Nothing pisses me off more than people assuming because a man was able to get off and a woman was able to squeeze out a kid, they are automatically the best option for the kids.
I have a friends who have adopted 2 minority daughters because they are not capable of having kids. I GUARANTEE, in the long term, the vast majority of these kids would be better off with them (getting "torn away" from their drug dealing families) than in these circumstances.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But
Show me that all these kids ripped away from parents who may only have smoked a little dope (btw, I do not think drug use automatically makes you a bad parent anymore than valium or anti-depressant use does) --SHOW me that they all have nice homes and are not living in horrible govt. wards
Also, parents aren't born overnight. It may take some time and help and they will develop into great parents.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Now, I am skeptical, because I have met many people who do a GREAT job of saying exactly what they need to say. However, if what she says is true, then I think a year in jail may have been just the perfect short term hit to maximize the long term gain for her family.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The fact that you are so jaded that you would say "I know what these people are like" shows where your head and heart are at and it is ugly.
watch the video.
http://article.wn.com/view/2012/08/27/Where_is_Patricia_Spottedcrow/
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)I'm not jaded and I'm not a mean, ugly person. I'm trying to tell you guys that you are living in fairy land if you really think these people think like you and I would. Rationally, lovingly, selflessly when it comes to our kids.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Which part do you disagree with?
So why treat them the same?
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)I've known drug dealers who were the biggest pieces of shit you would ever know. I have also known drug dealers who are loving parents, take care of their elderly parents, good employees, etc.
Please consider this simple fact: nobody ever calls you to deal with good people. You do not know the good, decent people out there who sell drugs. You are only called to deal with the bad cases.
You are like the cop who only engages African-Americans when dealing with African-American criminals on a daily basis, and then concludes that this is what most Black people are like. You are making the same mistake of thinking the drug dealers you are working with are representative of all drug dealers. The vast majority of drug dealers never get into the slightest bit of trouble. So you won't see them.
I can almost 100% guarantee you that you have family members who deal drugs. That there are people in your office whom you respect who deal drugs. I repeatedly hire one contractor whom I know deals drugs to his friends. I give him a key to my house so he can work on my house when I'm not there!
The simple fact is most Americans smoke pot for at least a brief period in their life, and an extremely high percentage of them have sold some of what they bought, or picked up some for a friend. Even if no profit is made, you are still a drug dealer.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)If she has $5 and I don't have change, I'll borrow the $5 from her and return it when I have change. The drug issue is concerning, though it does sound like a huge sentence for a relatively small sale of a drug that should probably be legal anyway. But the borrowing money from the kid so she'll have change thing doesn't strike me as odd at all. Do you have kids old enough to have an allowance and money? They always have $1 bills, and often $5 bills. I don't always have change like that. I don't see why it's a big deal to get change from your kid and repay them later. (I usually repay with interest.)
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)...but most don't return the money from their kids.
Have any of you guys ever been hard core drug users? They don't treat their kids like they're their kids. They treat them like possessions to control and treat like garbage most of the time.
I'm not jaded and I'm not a mean, ugly person. I'm trying to tell you guys that you are living in fairy land if you really think these people think like you and I would. Rationally, lovingly, selflessly when it comes to our kids.
Duckie
gollygee
(22,336 posts)someone who sold a little bit of marijuana. I think that's why we aren't seeing the same thing. Is she just selling marijuana, or does she sell other drugs as well? That would influence how I felt.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)Was talking about her clients.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I heard about people buying small amounts of marijuana. Were her customers buying or using other drugs? Or is that an assumption? It isn't fair to give her a sentence so out of bounds with what she did based on assumptions.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Are you saying it wasn't her that did that, but her client (the cop)?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)even while "setting us straight"?
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)Could you READ what I wrote? I said she was putting her kids at risk with the people who came to her door because weed is easier to score than some other drugs.
Jesus. I corrected my sloppy fact and admitted it.
Weed is still illegal. Sorry you don't like that, but cops are paid to enforce the laws on the books, not just the ones they like or make sense.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)to buttress your otherwise laughable argument--i.e. that this women "deserves" years of prison.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Right, but she has a really high sentence for selling a small amount of marijuana, and you said it's because of her behavior including borrowing money from her child, which is not against any law on any book.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)I am a supporter of the law. We can't pick and choose which ones to follow just because they make sense or we like them. Otherwise, we go to jail. I am sorry if you don't like that, but that's how a civilized country works.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
ck4829
(35,057 posts)Our war on drugs would be funny if it wasn't a war on the American people.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)... and this act gets the class of felony to arrest her.
The FDA gets to insist that the drug be pulled off the shelf, and big pharma's gets to influence another day.
You see... you did it all wrong, girl... (do I really need the sarcasm thing?)
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)Want to see how? Look at Portugal.
What can we do? - http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021250009
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)Not surprised at all. In certain areas of the country, such as here and the Dakotas, it's often open season on NAs.
LaurenG
(24,841 posts)had she had money for an atty this would have been a misdemeanor but instead she's in jail.
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)People can make all of the excuses they want, but the reality is clear. Still, he is way more likely to improve matters on this issue than his fucked up opponent. So vote for Obama and cross your fingers.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)walking free and they lock this gal up for selling a little weed.
What a stupid country!
villager
(26,001 posts)n/t
Uncle Joe
(58,349 posts)no logic, no common sense, no sense of proportion and no compassion.
Thanks for the thread, Bonobo.
RC
(25,592 posts)The human factor. Empathy. Why was Patricia Spottedcrow selling in the first place?
My guess it was to get a little extra money to live on. She had kids to support. She comes across to me as an otherwise good mother. The only endangerment to her kids, I can see are from the law enforcement and the courts.
Money, that stuff that is in short supply with the people at the bottom. Especially since bu$h and company made it easier to ship our Living-Wage-Jobs over seas, causing a ripple effect that drives the economic lower classes down even farther. Couple that with the gaping holes slashed in the safety nets since Clinton and we get more and more people doing whatever they need to do to survive. While the rich and well to do, get laws passed against those very things and profit from those laws.
Patricia Spottedcrow's biggest crime was trying to survive while being non-white. The kids, the marijuana, were excuses. Trumped up charges against a poor, non-white woman just trying to survive in a society being driven down to 3rd world status for the benefit and profit of those at the top.
Let her go for time served and harassment endured. She has already paid dearly for her "crime". Justice has already been served and then some. Anything more is more harassment. Most loving parents should be able to see that.
Too many people just cannot see past the words in front of them, to the person those words are describing. Patricia Spottedcrow is a fellow human being, meaning she is more than just words on a piece of paper or on a computer screen. Where is the compassion in our society today?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you.
RC
(25,592 posts)This country goes way overboard on punishment, putting people in state and federal prison for crimes that in reality are not really crimes. Our society is set up for harsh punishment, breaking up families, disrupting and destroying lives, where a warning or probation would be much better option. We, as a country, are insane.
Most of us can't see it because that is all we know. The 'invented here, so it must be better than everyone else's' mind set, no matter the real damage involved. Ra-Ra, USA, USA, USA!
We really do need to get away from "It's the law, so we have to obey it" bullshit. No we don't. Other countries have found better ways and we need to also.
Johnny2X2X
(19,041 posts)While I still think Marijuana should be legalized, I no longer think it's relatively harmless to society.
Why the change? Over the years I have known many avid pot smokers, some successful, many not successful in their lives. What I see as I get older is the people who never stopped smoking pot are for the most part a mess. And at this point they will not quit for anything. They sacrifice their families well being so they can keep smoking weed. They don't get jobs because they fail drug tests, they spend their unemployment money on weed rather than making their childrens' lives more secure. They risk jail by failing to stop smoking when they know they have a court ordered drug test looming. They have their electricity and gas shut off, but still have money for weed every day. They aggrevate their COPD because they continue to smoke. I'm thinking of 2 different couples I am close to that put weed above everything else in their lives including children, jobs, health, pets, jail, etc etc.
I had never thought weed was addictive, the behavior I've seen from several dear friends in recent years has convinced me otherwise, these are definitely addicts. I think for most people smoking pot is a passing phase, for some they continue to smoke their whole lives, among these people some suffer few consequences and lead normal and productive lives, but the majority suffer some type of ill effects from their pot use.
That being said, receiving real time for weed is an absolute waste of resources and a grave injustice.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)And I probably lots and lots and lots of lifelong smokers who do not fit your description, but whom I do not know are smokers. I bet you unknowingly do as well.
