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Sat Sep 22, 2012, 07:49 PM

Can somebody explain to me what are moderates and independents?

You know how in every election, both parties fight hard for independents and moderates, right? It seems to me that so many folks take pride in either being seen as a "moderate" or an independent voter nowadays, and I don't know why. For instance, I constantly hear things from pundits about how there are an increasing number of independents, and how moderates are becoming extinct in both parties. They make it out like both sides are equally evil, and that the middle is always the best path to take, but what do they really mean by the middle? Like what would be a "moderate" position when it comes to gay rights? The Left favors it, while the Right is totally opposed. And what would be a moderate position when it comes to voter ID?

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Reply Can somebody explain to me what are moderates and independents? (Original post)
CheapShotArtist Sep 2012 OP
banned from Kos Sep 2012 #1
mr_hat Sep 2012 #2
Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #3
daleanime Sep 2012 #4
bluestate10 Sep 2012 #14
daleanime Sep 2012 #18
Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #5
OriginalGeek Sep 2012 #16
bluestate10 Sep 2012 #17
Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #24
leftstreet Sep 2012 #6
Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #7
enlightenment Sep 2012 #9
bluestate10 Sep 2012 #19
Odin2005 Sep 2012 #8
enlightenment Sep 2012 #10
bluestate10 Sep 2012 #20
dmallind Sep 2012 #11
bluestate10 Sep 2012 #21
craigmatic Sep 2012 #12
bluestate10 Sep 2012 #13
JRLeft Sep 2012 #15
bluestate10 Sep 2012 #22
nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #23

Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 07:52 PM

1. there are very few moderate positions on a single issue

 

Moderates occur because of multiple issues.

Say, I am pro-choice pro-gay marriage and also pro-gun freedom and low taxes?

What is that? D or R?

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 07:59 PM

2. I think these are people who haven't noticed >

how alarmingly to the right the once-GOP has lurched.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 08:11 PM

3. You know, I think the real, honest answer to this...

is that a lot of people are more or less apolitical. "moderate" means the same thing as "centrist", which in practise is more likely to mean "left-wing on some things, right-wing on others" than "in the middle". Perfect example of a "moderate" as the press understands the term: Joe Lieberman. Pro-women's rights, pro-choice, for ending discrimination in the armed forces based on sexual orientation, against marriage equality, so, relatively mixed on social issues; and on foreign policy and national defence somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 08:19 PM

4. These days a moderate is often

a republican whose to embarrassed to admit it.

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Response to daleanime (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:12 AM

14. You can't be more wrong. nt

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:31 AM

18. Well, it's said half in jest...

but please enlighten me.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 08:32 PM

5. I can help you out on that, I think. I'm a liberal Independent.

"Independent" refers to party affiliation. That is, s/he doesn't have one. That's what I am. The term does NOT refer to stance on issues (progressive, liberal, moderate, conservative, totally batshit wingnut). There are various reasons for not becoming affiliated with a political party.

Some people call themselves independent, when what they mean is moderate, AND they actually belong to a political party. But that is wrong, IMO.

"Moderate" means left of center or right of center. ("Centrist" is in the middle.) You can be a moderate Democrat, a moderate Republican, a moderate Independent. I can't imagine there being a moderate Libertarian...the party itself is extreme.

I used to consider myself a moderate Independent, until the right got so wacko. It has driven me more toward the liberal side.

I believe that most people in the country are moderates, not wanting an extreme either way. This is why moderates are usually elected President, and a Kucinich or an Eric Cantor can't win the Presidency. Extreme positions scare the skivies off moderates. OR...the candidate has to pretend to be moderate to get elected. (Exception would be Romney; that's how screwed up things are these days. The Republican Party has gotten taken over by extremists, so Romney has to pretend not to be as moderate as he is.)

In a state where a person doesn't register to a political party, it's easy to consider yourself one thing or another, like here in Texas. When I lived in Louisiana, where you have to register to a party, I registered as a Democrat.

There' a lot of talk about independents in teh middle who haven't made up their minds. I think THOSE people are just called independents for lack of a better term. Stupid, uninformed, self-involved people who don't care a twit about current events describes them better. Real independents like myself have made up their minds. Most are Republicans or right of center, I've heard, so it's possible they really are undecided because they just don't want to vote for Romney, but they don't like Obama, so don't know what to do. Maybe.

I'm probably really a Democrat, I guess. I just have issues with BOTH parties...the money, the corruption, the payoffs, the lack of a third party, etc. So I don't like to affiliate myself with the party structure.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:19 AM

16. I think a moderate libertarian

is one who is in it for the legal weed and doesn't even know about the loony shit.

I bet that guys thinks he's morally superior for not being beholden to either major party because "they are both the same thing mannnnn..."


Of course, he might just be a dumbass.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:23 AM

17. I don't agree with one observation you made on Independents.

To open, let me say that I am a partisan, moderate democrat. You saying that Independents that have not made of their minds are stupid, uninformed, self-involved is wrong. I am a democrat that made up my mind about Obama long ago, I voted for Obama in 2008 and can't wait to vote for Obama this year. But, I have spent the last few months absorbed in business activity that caused me to virtually tune out everything else. Many people are Independents because they aren't partisan, those people largely ignore politics until about now. I can promise you that undecided Independents are watching and making up their minds. President Obama seems to be benefiting from the Independents that are deciding, they are breaking for President Obama. The last of the Independents to decide? They may break for Romney, but may be not. In the 2010 election for Governor of Massachusetts, late deciding Independents broke 2-1 for the victorious democrat and delivered his margin of victory.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:07 PM

24. Maybe. But I agree with Bill Maher on this...

Who are the self-described Independents who haven't made up their minds? The Octomom and Kim Kardashian.

Romney's been running for President for decades. Obama has been President for years. If someone doesn't have a handle on which one they agree with philosophically (like the Octomom), that's not someone who is informed and just hasn't decided. It's something else (Kim "which outfit should I wear today and which cosmetic surgery do I do next" Kardashian).

It's not the paying attention in the last few months. It's not paying attention for YEARS is how someone doesn't have a CLUE how they feel about these guys.
Raw Story (http://s.tt/1o3r1)

http://videos.mediaite.com/embed/player/container/420/421/2FYS420YGYDSDPSL?referrer=http%

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 08:33 PM

6. There is no such thing as moderate. It's code

For most people who imagine themselves to be 'middle class,' stating they're 'moderate' means they don't want anyone getting too much. They hear politicians talking about the impoverished, minorities, gays, women, etc. etc., and they fear those groups might get more than they've got, so they'll vote accordingly.

Example: they want schoolchildren to have access to subsided food programs, so long as the food isn't anything fancier than a cheese sandwich. They inadvertently bury any chance at class consciousness by continually supporting class stratification. And somehow...this makes sense to them.


Independents? An 'independent' is a person who doesn't know who his/her senators are.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 08:40 PM

7. You are so very wrong on both moderates and independents. I'm an independent.

"Moderate" refers to stance on issues. It's not an excuse to keep people from getting freebies. That's a silly thing to say.

Clinton is a moderate or a centrist. So is Obama. Most Presidents of the US have been moderates. Most people in the country are left of center or right of center. Not that many are at the edges, left or right.

I am liberal on most issues, but moderate on some, and conservative on some criminal issues. My moderate stance is...I see the issue in shades of gray. Not black and white. I see the solution not as either/or. Example: student testing for teacher evaluations. I don't see the solution as YES do it or NO don't do it. This is what governing is based on, BTW.

And I DO know who my senators and federal reps are.

Contrary to public opinion, most independents have decided who to vote for. I think the people that are undecided, other people just call them independents because they don't know what else to call them.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 10:40 PM

9. You couldn't be more wrong about independents.

The only person exhibiting ignorance here (and I mean ignorant in the sense of not knowing) is you, since you clearly have never taken any time to learn about why independents choose that designator.

I am a lifelong liberal and a lifelong independent/unaffiliated (depending on the state in which I registered). It has nothing to do with where I stand on the political spectrum; it has everything to do with having no desire to affiliate with a political party.

Parties and their politics shift with the wind; every four years they come up with new slogans and - more tellingly - new platforms through which they define themselves. Many people - myself included - have no desire to be told what to believe by a party, nor made to feel that they have to embrace positions with which they may not agree in order to be a 'card-carrying' member.

Instead of insulting people who fight the same battles you fight, why don't you learn more about why they choose not to belong to your club?

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:34 AM

19. You are wrong.

I am almost dead Moderate, maybe a tad left of true center. I want school children to have as nutritious food as I eat and am willing to pay taxes to help with that. What I don't want is to have the tax money pissed away, I want most of every dollar to accomplish it's intended purpose. One of my big issues with the Left isn't the Left's heart, I think that is in exactly the right place, my issue is that the Left appear to want policy and programs without checks on the effectiveness of those programs and modifications from time to time to make those programs work.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 09:53 PM

8. They are mostly a mythical invention of DINO DLC politicians.

Most people that call themselves "independent" actually are strongly loyal to one party or another, but refuse to admit it to themselves because of self-image

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 10:47 PM

10. Nothing to do with self-image, Odin,

unless the self-image is that of someone who does not feel the need to belong to a political party. Party loyalty? That sounds positively Stalinesque.

I fail to understand why party 'loyalists' have so many issues with independents. Could it be a problem with self-image?

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:43 AM

20. I am a partisan democrat.

I seldom mention my party because that is no one's business but mine. But if asked, I will say that I am a democrat. I have no problem with Independents, many of those people are apolitical and don't pay attention to politics until they prepare to vote. Calling Independents stupid and uninformed as one poster did is just plain wrong. I saw Independents win an election for the best Governor my state has had in my life. The extreme Left was set to create a stalemate between the effective democrat and his Republican challenger because the democrat didn't give them all the policy they wanted. The Independents in my state said no fucking way and helped me and other democrats re-elect a Governor which everyone now seem to view as incredibly effective.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 11:44 PM

11. Since a few liberasl independents have spoken up - I'll take the other tack.

I'm a moderate Democrat. In some, but not all respects, a centrist one. I'm not independent. I vote straight Dem and barring incredibly unlikely circumstances will never vote anything else.

But I think for-profit capitalism is fine, with regulations only when needed. I think it's fine for sane crime-free adults to have and carry guns, regulations ditto. I think the death penalty and military action is sometimes warranted, although less often than Republicans do. I don't want to tax rich people 90% (although I sure as hell want to tax them more than 33%). I don't automatically assume poor people, unions, minorities, or smaller/poorer nations are always in the right (or always in the wrong of course) in disputes with rich people, companies, majorities or more powerful nations. I think the banking and financial industries can and even sometimes do serve a useful purpose.

On some issues I'm aligned with the most liberal edge of the party - equal rights, choice, universal health care, social security/welfare strengthening for example. On the issues in the previous paragraph I am aligned with the much-loathed DU villains on the other side of the party. What's that but a moderate Democrat?

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Response to dmallind (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:53 AM

21. I mostly agree with you.

On banks and financial institutions, I think that more regulation rather than less is better as long as the efficacy of that regulation is periodically examined by regulators in a realistic, agenda free fashion. I don't care about guns one way or the other. I would prefer to see the death penalty used only in the cases of the most grotesque murders. I am alright with killing terrorist leaders that have demonstrated that they have killed or encouraged the killing of innocent people, without a trial. The maximum tax rate of the rich should be more than 35% on the maximum and Capital Gains taxes should be more than 15%.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2012, 11:47 PM

12. There's no such thing as an independent. Everyone leans one way or the other.

If ever there was a truely independent person they're probably not paying close attention to what's going on.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:12 AM

13. I will take a shot. I am a Moderate-Progressive.

With emphasis on the Moderate.

I support Gay Rights and view the right to have freedom of association for Gay people no differently than I do for anyone else.

I think everyone that wants to vote should have that right and governments should make voting easy. While felons are serving penitence, they should not be allowed to vote, but when they have paid their debt to society, they should be able to vote.

I think that putting people in prison for using marijuana is insane and use up space that should be reserved for hard criminals.

I am ok with killing terrorists with drones or any other means. I don't give a shit that they don't get a "trail" as long as we are sure that they have killed americans or plan to kill americans or encouraged someone else to kill americans.

Banks should be regulated. The view that someone can have verification free rights to squander the nation's wealth is outright loony.

I prefer to see policy means tested for effectiveness, if a policy, regardless of how well intentioned is not meeting the original objective, it should be modified to correct the gaps.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:15 AM

15. Moderate politicians from my experience usually means pro big business or socially conservative or

liberal, depending on your party. Libertarians are extreme on economic issues and liberal social issues.

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Response to JRLeft (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:57 AM

22. I am Moderate.

I am pro capitalism, but not necessarily pro big business. I believe in competition as long as the playing field is kept fair. I am progressive on every social issue but dealing with terrorists, where I want the biggest hammer possible to drop once we are reasonably sure a terrorist is an evil bastard.

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Response to CheapShotArtist (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:59 AM

23. I am one

Nothing moderate by the way..I hapen to be way to the left of the modern Democratic party.

In fact, my local house race, we got two crooks running. (Problem of covering local politics, the dirt goes deep)

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