Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:31 PM Sep 2012

Current fundementalist & reactive Islam is a fairly recent innovation.

Islam is not more touchy than other religions. It happens to be today, but historically it hasn't been so, and has at times been less touchy than the average religion.

The 1970s saw a rise in religious fundamentalism across the board.

Before the 1970s it was very unusual for Americans outside a few southern counties to walk around talking about their two-way conversations with Jesus. (And Jimmy Carter's brand of religious talk would have kept him out of national office.)

Israel was founded by a bunch of atheists as a socialist haven for European jews. It was a pretty irreligious nation until the 1970s.

And the theocratic revolution in Iran in the late 1970s was very new and unusual. The Islamic world was dominated by non-religious strong-men, not by theocrats. Even terrorists were a bunch of atheists. The PLO was more about Marx than Jihad, and were not suicidal. The suicide-bomber was a later fundementalist religious innovation.


When Islam was on top it was less reactive than Christianity. And that's not a coincidence. It was not very harsh to non-Muslims, which helped with recruiting. (It was better to be a jew in Egypt than in Spain.) A lot of people converted more because it opened doors to business opportunities than out of fear of persecution.

The Muslims have controlled the key Christian holy sites in Jerusalem for ages because way back in the day the warring Christian sects were always fighting over them, and it was decided that Muslims were the fairest brokers. They were seen as good managers and capable of fairness.

Saladin was, to Europeans, the perfect knight... the specific inspiration for European chivalry.

Contemporary Muslim reactivity does not come from the religion itself. Islam is no more intrinsically sensitive than any other religion. A conservative religious culture will feature a reactive and primitive interpretation of whatever the culture's religion is.

Since the degeneracy of fundementalist Islam is so similar to the mentality of conservative Christianity, it is easy to see that these things come from trends in culture and society more than from what is written in a holy book. The book is open to endless reinterpretation to suit the political/cultural trend.

The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong is a fine book about what happened in the 1970s.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-God-Karen-Armstrong/dp/0345391691

In our supposedly secular age governed by reason and technology, fundamentalism has emerged as an overwhelming force in every major world religion. Why? This is the fascinating, disturbing question that bestselling author Karen Armstrong addresses in her brilliant new book The Battle for God. Writing with the broad perspective and deep understanding of human spirituality that won huge audiences for A History of God, Armstrong illuminates the spread of militant piety as a phenomenon peculiar to our moment in history.

Contrary to popular belief, fundamentalism is not a throwback to some ancient form of religion but rather a response to the spiritual crisis of the modern world. As Armstrong argues, the collapse of a piety rooted in myth and cult during the Renaissance forced people of faith to grasp for new ways of being religious--and fundamentalism was born. Armstrong focuses here on three fundamentalist movements: Protestant fundamentalism in America, Jewish fundamentalism in Israel, and Islamic fundamentalism in Egypt and Iran--exploring how each has developed its own unique way of combating the assaults of modernity.

14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Current fundementalist & reactive Islam is a fairly recent innovation. (Original Post) cthulu2016 Sep 2012 OP
The Crusades were over centuries before Suleiman was born. JVS Sep 2012 #1
My bad... I meant Saladin (edited OP) cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #4
It's also worth pointing out JoeyT Sep 2012 #2
I dunno... FightForMichigan Sep 2012 #3
It's not that things never existed, but that they ebb and flow cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #5
Nice try raybar Sep 2012 #6
Funny how that dovetails with cali Sep 2012 #7
Great post, cthulu2016. Bookmarked. n/t pampango Sep 2012 #8
The key figure, discussed in Armstrong's book, hifiguy Sep 2012 #9
This is a well needed post. white_wolf Sep 2012 #10
Yep.. YoungDemCA Sep 2012 #11
And an inherent weakness of Christianity tuned out to be its strength cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #13
I think that a lot of it had to do with the Fundamentalist Moslems becoming very wealthy Nikia Sep 2012 #12
Batshit isn't limited to contemporary fundie Islam backscatter712 Sep 2012 #14

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
4. My bad... I meant Saladin (edited OP)
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:43 PM
Sep 2012

Not only did Suleiman post-date the crusdaes, he also post-dated the origins of chivalry!

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
2. It's also worth pointing out
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:40 PM
Sep 2012

the Middle East were the seat of science and medicine for hundreds of years and considered Europe barbaric, and they were largely correct.

Sadly this isn't going to do much to deter the bigots, but if logic worked there would be no Klan either.

FightForMichigan

(232 posts)
3. I dunno...
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:41 PM
Sep 2012

Wahhabism, the fundamentalist streak in Islam that exists today, began in the 1700s. It may have spread a lot recently, but it isn't exactly new.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
5. It's not that things never existed, but that they ebb and flow
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
Sep 2012

Christianity was more backward in 1492 than in 1972, but in America Christianity was more backward in 1972 than in 1952.

The belief that the Earth is 4000 years old is more widely held in America today than at times in the past. But going back further we see even heliocentrism as a heresy.

raybar

(1 post)
6. Nice try
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
Sep 2012

This is a polyannish view of Muslim history, the culture and particularly the spirit of inquiry stagnated hundreds of years ago. But who are we or anyone to brag?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
7. Funny how that dovetails with
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:52 PM
Sep 2012

Western domination and aggression in the middle east.

Think of the U.S. and British coup against Mosaddegh.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
9. The key figure, discussed in Armstrong's book,
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:52 PM
Sep 2012

was an Islamic fundamentalist oddball named Sayyid Qutb. He was an Egyptian, virulently anti-secularist, a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood and Nasser executed him in 1966. His philosophy is the underpinning of most of today's Islamic fundamentalism that is not based on Wahhabism.

It seems his time spent living in the US in the 1940s is what turned him into a puritanical and anti-modernist Islamist.

For more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
10. This is a well needed post.
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
Sep 2012

I'm sick of this view that Islam is inherently anymore reactionary than Christianity. It isn't, I would rather have lived in the Muslim world during the Middle-Ages than the Christian one. The fact that the modern "Western" world is more tolerant has a lot more to do with secularism overcoming Christianity than Christianity itself.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
11. Yep..
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 01:01 PM
Sep 2012

"The fact that the modern "Western" world is more tolerant has a lot more to do with secularism overcoming Christianity than Christianity itself."

Well said.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
13. And an inherent weakness of Christianity tuned out to be its strength
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 01:31 PM
Sep 2012

Christianity is an apocalyptic "the end is near" religion, not built for the long haul. It has no interest in governance... it provides no model for the state.

Islam was too good at statecraft. That allowed its great expansion, but also allowed its stagnation.

The Catholic church did not rule an empire, but rather ruled a religious empire that sought to prevent a comparable secular empire. And the diversity of fragments political and economic thought and realities within Christendom ended up making it economically and intellectually vibrant

Nikia

(11,411 posts)
12. I think that a lot of it had to do with the Fundamentalist Moslems becoming very wealthy
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 01:28 PM
Sep 2012

From oil sales. They were able to use their money to gain firmer control over others in their region, spread their ideas, and finance like minded individuals. This also enabled large portions of the population to devote their life to their religion rather than working in jobs in money making industries.
I think that if the U.S. and most of the rest of the world was not dependent on oil, Islamic Fundamentalism would lose popularity after a while.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
14. Batshit isn't limited to contemporary fundie Islam
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 01:49 PM
Sep 2012

I'd say over here, we're only a few sociological shifts from The Handmaid's Tale...

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Current fundementalist &a...