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Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:22 AM

 

Sorry, you don't coddle religious fanatics of any stripe.

Yesterday four people were killed in Libya. They weren't killed because they had done something heinous, they weren't killed because we were war, they were killed because some religious fanatics took offense at a film.

That is not the act of a civilized people, that is the act of backwards, ignorant religious fanatics. Some folks seem to want to give them some slack because they are Islamic fanatics, or because they are in the Middle East, or for whatever reason, but I'm sorry, they are religious fanatics who broke the law and need to be arrested and brought to justice for their crimes.

We have religious fanatics in this country who have done terrible things, and they have been brought to justice. The same should apply abroad. If the countries in question, Libya and Egypt, won't do so, then I say we should pull out our embassies and discontinue all aid. We simply cannot allow religious fanatics to dictate to us what we can and cannot say. This is a country of free speech, part of a world where civilized nations also have free speech. If we allow religious fanatics to dictate what we can say in this country, then what else are we going to allow them to dictate to us, how we dress, how women are treated, the list is endless.

Do I condone the film, the Israeli-American producer or Terry Jones? No, I think they put this little film of theirs out there to get a reaction, and they got one. But I defend their right to say what they want. The frank truth of the matter is this is like a school playground squabble. One kid says something nasty to get a rise out of another kid, who in turn hits the first kid and goes to the office. If you want people to stop saying and doing things that piss you off, realize that those people are doing so just to get a rise out of you and if you ignore what they are doing, if you don't rise to the bait, then soon they will stop.

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Arrow 105 replies Author Time Post
Reply Sorry, you don't coddle religious fanatics of any stripe. (Original post)
MadHound Sep 2012 OP
seabeyond Sep 2012 #1
Barack_America Sep 2012 #25
seabeyond Sep 2012 #42
nanabugg Sep 2012 #69
amandabeech Sep 2012 #99
lame54 Sep 2012 #2
Lucy Goosey Sep 2012 #3
lame54 Sep 2012 #7
MadHound Sep 2012 #8
lame54 Sep 2012 #10
el_bryanto Sep 2012 #14
lame54 Sep 2012 #26
el_bryanto Sep 2012 #32
lame54 Sep 2012 #36
MadHound Sep 2012 #15
LanternWaste Sep 2012 #72
LadyHawkAZ Sep 2012 #95
Bake Sep 2012 #60
Barack_America Sep 2012 #29
Sekhmets Daughter Sep 2012 #18
snooper2 Sep 2012 #23
Missycim Sep 2012 #24
LadyHawkAZ Sep 2012 #78
Sekhmets Daughter Sep 2012 #98
Missycim Sep 2012 #104
Lucy Goosey Sep 2012 #27
NCTraveler Sep 2012 #59
EX500rider Sep 2012 #75
Sekhmets Daughter Sep 2012 #102
WCGreen Sep 2012 #81
Sekhmets Daughter Sep 2012 #101
ehrnst Sep 2012 #35
alarimer Sep 2012 #54
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #12
David__77 Sep 2012 #22
lame54 Sep 2012 #30
LondonReign2 Sep 2012 #61
lame54 Sep 2012 #62
treestar Sep 2012 #96
jody Sep 2012 #4
MadHound Sep 2012 #5
Rose Siding Sep 2012 #9
MadHound Sep 2012 #11
msanthrope Sep 2012 #17
Rose Siding Sep 2012 #19
Luminous Animal Sep 2012 #16
MadHound Sep 2012 #34
Luminous Animal Sep 2012 #39
MadHound Sep 2012 #41
Luminous Animal Sep 2012 #44
MadHound Sep 2012 #46
Luminous Animal Sep 2012 #57
jody Sep 2012 #37
MadHound Sep 2012 #40
jody Sep 2012 #43
MadHound Sep 2012 #45
jody Sep 2012 #48
LondonReign2 Sep 2012 #66
jody Sep 2012 #70
LondonReign2 Sep 2012 #71
TwilightGardener Sep 2012 #6
Union Scribe Sep 2012 #73
TwilightGardener Sep 2012 #82
amandabeech Sep 2012 #103
Sekhmets Daughter Sep 2012 #13
MadHound Sep 2012 #20
joeybee12 Sep 2012 #21
blm Sep 2012 #28
99Forever Sep 2012 #31
MadHound Sep 2012 #38
99Forever Sep 2012 #50
MadHound Sep 2012 #53
99Forever Sep 2012 #63
MadHound Sep 2012 #84
99Forever Sep 2012 #100
99Forever Sep 2012 #105
ehrnst Sep 2012 #33
Whisp Sep 2012 #47
MadHound Sep 2012 #49
Whisp Sep 2012 #51
MadHound Sep 2012 #56
Whisp Sep 2012 #58
treestar Sep 2012 #97
spanone Sep 2012 #52
alarimer Sep 2012 #55
closeupready Sep 2012 #64
lunatica Sep 2012 #65
JNelson6563 Sep 2012 #77
Alduin Sep 2012 #67
ecstatic Sep 2012 #68
false flags a-go-go Sep 2012 #74
MadHound Sep 2012 #86
EX500rider Sep 2012 #76
WCGreen Sep 2012 #79
LondonReign2 Sep 2012 #80
WCGreen Sep 2012 #83
LondonReign2 Sep 2012 #85
WCGreen Sep 2012 #90
Iggo Sep 2012 #87
MadHound Sep 2012 #88
Iggo Sep 2012 #89
MadHound Sep 2012 #92
Iggo Sep 2012 #94
BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #91
LadyHawkAZ Sep 2012 #93

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:22 AM

1. who coddled? nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:01 AM

25. I also would like to know this.

All I've seen is people pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims are not fanatics, which is certainly true.

What the basis of this incident seems to me is fanatics inciting fanatics.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:25 AM

42. follow the lines. the very argument used about romney is being used by the anti religion on this

board, right now.

using this mob to attack all religion.

how is it different from romney using it to attack bush.

and this, from a nonreligious person. me.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:40 PM

69. More "coddle" more buzz words for the talking points. nt

 

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:43 PM

99. "Fanatics inciting fanatics."

That's my take on it, too.

A pox on all their houses.

Of course, the Libyan attack may have been an Al Quaeda affiliate avenging the death of the Al Quaeda #2 who was killed in June (I think) and may have been done in by a drone. In which case, we have to go after the folks who killed our folks in Libya.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:23 AM

2. the film was made by religious fanatics

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Response to lame54 (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:24 AM

3. Well yeah, but making a film is not equivalent to a murderous rampage. nt

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Response to Lucy Goosey (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:38 AM

7. never said it was...

but with both sides we are dealing with crazies

Terry Jones small past actions have caused violence

so now he engages in a much bigger action - for what?

Those children in your analogy who get a rise out of others?

There is a name for that - Bully

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Response to lame54 (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:41 AM

8. What did Jones do that was illegal?

 

He has not done a single thing that is against our laws. Are you suggesting that we should still punish him?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:48 AM

10. fuck illegal...

nobody said illegal

but actions have consequences

and his actions have the consequences that he wants

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Response to lame54 (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:50 AM

14. This

It's one thing to say that someone shouldn't say or film or do such stupid shit. That's called a discussion - and is perfectly within the first amendment. It's another to use mechanisms to shut down speech you don't like - that's censorship. It's not helpful to conflate the two.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:01 AM

26. I didn't...

the word illegal was said to me as if I suggested Jones be arrested - I never did

I'm using my 1st ammendment right to point out that this guy is a religious fanatic who is causing harm

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Response to lame54 (Reply #26)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:06 AM

32. Sorry - i was agreeing with you. Apologize if I wasn't clear. n/t

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #32)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:12 AM

36. it's all good

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Response to lame54 (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:51 AM

15. We are a country of laws,

 

You start persecuting people for actions that are perfectly legal in our system of justice, then our society starts to break down.

I don't condone what Jones and the film's producer said, but I defend their right to say it. Allowing religious fanatics of any stripe dictate what we can and cannot say means that we're well on our way to a theocracy. Is that what you want?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #15)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:58 PM

72. however, I also realize that irresponsible speech designed to inflame

"I don't condone what Jones and the film's producer said, but I defend their right to say it." As do most of us... however, I also realize that irresponsible speech designed to inflame and insult will often result in less-than-positive consequences. Consequences that quite often, may be easily and obviously deduced beforehand.

"Allowing religious fanatics of any stripe dictate what we can and cannot say..." I think that applies to all social constructs-- not merely religion, and may be one of many reasons your neighborhood racist does not stand in the middle of his lawn righteously yelling "spics and niggers need to leave America!"

As many people realize that cultural mores and common sense do in fact, dictate what we do and do not say-- and that, much more than law, is the first protection from these negative consequences.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #15)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 04:18 PM

95. It's perfectly legal in our system of justice

for Catholic leaders to call for a ban on abortion and birth control, and to blame their pedophilia problem on gays. It's perfectly legal to hold up "God Hates Fags" signs. It's perfectly legal for a church to extort 10% of its members' income, while paying not a dime in taxes and pushing through theocratic laws. Lots of things are perfectly legal and still meet the criteria for harmful extremism. We still condemn it as harmful extremism though, and work to rid society of it.

It's perfectly possible to be an extremist and push for a theocracy, and try to dictate what we can and cannot say, without being Muslim. Jones wants a war with the brown people because he thinks he's got the better invisible friend. He's doing everything he can to provoke one, and we're giving him all the media assistance he needs to make it work. If that's not a religious extremist attempting to dictate our thoughts and actions, I don't know what is. Why is that OK? How is that OK?

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Response to lame54 (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:18 PM

60. Jones made a stupid film. The other fanatics murdered four people.

You seem to be saying that's to be expected. It's NOT.

They need to get the message that they can be our friends, or they can be our enemies, but they do NOT want to be our enemies.

Fuck 'em.

Bake

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Response to MadHound (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:03 AM

29. The argument could be made for civil liability.

Based on what his "reasonable expectations" would have been based on prior incidents. Could he have expected a mob?

But now is not the time to make such arguments. Now is the time to mourn 4 American civil servants.

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Response to Lucy Goosey (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:56 AM

18. Perhaps not, but let's imagine

just what the response would be if a Muslim put out a film of the Pope getting a blow job from Cardinal Dolan. Or how about a film depicting Joseph Smith getting it on with the Angel Moroni? It's more than a bit ironic that the most violent nation in the world condemns violence in other countries.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:59 AM

23. just did a search on youtube for "pope getting a blow job"

This is the top video




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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:00 AM

24. I would bet you a 100 dollars

 

nothing violent would happen. No one would storm an embassy or kill non Christians.


Did you think that post out before you hit send? Heck there are plenty of videos on YouTube that slams christianity.

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Response to Missycim (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:51 PM

78. How soon we forget...

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/25/movies/police-suspect-arson-in-fire-at-paris-theater.html

Police Suspect Arson In Fire at Paris Theater
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE, Special to the New York Times
Published: October 25, 1988

Government officials, religious leaders and film directors condemned today an apparent arson attack against a Paris theater that was showing Martin Scorsese's film ''The Last Temptation of Christ.'' The fire Saturday night left 13 people hospitalized, 1 of them in serious condition.

The fire, if it proves to be arson, would be the most serious incident in a series of attacks against the film in Paris, Lyons, Nice, Grenoble and several other French cities. The incidents have included the clubbing of moviegoers and the throwing of teargas and stink bombs in theaters.

The film, which seeks to show the human side of Jesus and which includes a scene in which he imagines having sex with Mary Magdalene, created a storm of controversy throughout France well before the movie opened in 17 theaters in Paris on Sept. 28. The Theater Is Gutted

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Response to Missycim (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:43 PM

98. Really?

We haven't had abortion clinics bombed and doctors killed? What about the recent bombings of Sikh religious center? That wasn't violence? There are people out there fomenting treason with statements like "If Obama gets re-elected there will be war" Don't fool yourself for one moment about what the response of the extremists would be if such offensive videos began circulating regularly.

I'd take that bet in a heartbeat, btw.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #98)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:29 PM

104. I was referring to videos or cartoon etc,

 

Abortion clinics are another story.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:02 AM

27. I would be fine with that, too

I'm an atheist, I don't have a horse in this race.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:15 PM

59. You can't be serious. nt.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:27 PM

75. "the most violent nation in the world... "

Honduras?

Listed as having highest murder rate with 91.6 murders per 100,000

(of countries that keep track, Afghanistan, Somalia, Congo, Yemen, Sudan may all have higher rates but no nobody keeps track)

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #75)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:51 PM

102. I should have said in the industrialized world....

Thanks for the correction.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:03 PM

81. South Park goes after Mormons all the time....

They lampooned the Book of Mormon on Broadway.

But I have to point this out, what would happen if that poking of fun, on Broadway, was aimed at Jewish folks or Catholics.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #81)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:49 PM

101. Exactly.

If Mormons were mainstream no one would be laughing. Religious extremists, of all persuasions, have no sense of humor regarding their own superstition and all are capable of despicable deeds. Think about the tragedy that grew out of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"... atrocities committed by "good Christians"

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Response to Lucy Goosey (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:08 AM

35. Yep, the makers of Third Reich propaganda would agree. (nt)

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Response to Lucy Goosey (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:26 PM

54. It was likely a deliberate provocation.

Religion poisons everything.

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Response to lame54 (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:49 AM

12. And directly harmed no one

 

if they had chosen to produce a film in retort no one would mind.

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Response to lame54 (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:59 AM

22. False equivalence

Is this Jones person a Christian supremacist? Sure. So what? There's simply no equivalence.

Are we living in the Middle Ages? One would think it's the 1400s...

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Response to David__77 (Reply #22)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:05 AM

30. not so black and white...

with both sides we are dealing with crazies

Terry Jones small past actions have caused violence

so now he engages in a much bigger action - for what?

He knows what he is doing

and if you watch the trailer - it's not for the art

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Response to lame54 (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:21 PM

61. Yup

One group of religious fanatics riled up another group of religious fanatics and innocent people were killed in the crossfire.

Were the acts of the two groups equivalent? Absolutely not. But they are both religious zealots.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #61)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:24 PM

62. thank you

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Response to lame54 (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:37 PM

96. Good point, they try to inflame each other

and become the victims of the other and then claim to be the victims in general.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:27 AM

4. and also "you don't coddle irreligious fanatics of any stripe." nt

 

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Response to jody (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:29 AM

5. Haven't seen any of those folks killing innocents,

 

When was the last time atheists or agnostics went out rioting?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:46 AM

9. George Tiller

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Response to Rose Siding (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:48 AM

11. Tiller was a fundy Christian, not agnostic or atheist,

 

Also, he was held criminally responsible for the life he took. Will the person who killed those four Americans receive that sort of justice? I hope so.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:52 AM

17. George Tiller was not a fundy Christian. He went to the graveyard, not jail. nt

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Response to MadHound (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:58 AM

19. He was murdered by fundies, but I did misunderstand and my comment wasn't relevant

to the discussion -I was reading subject lines and saw "irreligious" as 'religious" -my bad. need more coffee!

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Response to MadHound (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:52 AM

16. How many Nazi propagandists actually killed someone?

Very few, I suspect. But their vile rhetoric led a nation to despise, debase, hunt down and murder millions.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:08 AM

34. First of all, let me invoke Godwin's law here,

 

If for no other reason that you apparently don't have a clear grasp of the history of anti-Semitic sentiment in Germany from the 1890's through the Nazi's. The Nazi's certainly didn't create, or even fan that flame terribly much to get the reaction they wanted. Many Germans were already vile anti-Semites before the Nazi's even appeared on the scene.

Let me invoke Godwin's law for another reason, I seriously doubt that this propaganda is going to lead this nation to "despise, debase, hunt down and murder millions." Yes, it is a vile little film, one that wouldn't have even been on anybody's radar except for the reaction in Libya and Egypt.

Finally, let me ask you this, how far are you willing to allow these religious fanatics dictate what we, in a free society, under the rubric of our laws, do? Islamic fundamentalists don't just hate films that blasphamise their god, but they hate most Western films in general. They hate how we treat our women, how we are tolerant of all religions, what we show on TV, how we treat LGBT's. How far should we bend over to accommodate religious fanatics?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #34)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:20 AM

39. I reject you invoking Godwin's Law and I do not suggest we bend to religious fanatics...

I will suggest that we soundly condemn the religious fanatics... the hate-mongers and deliberate shit-stirrers in our own back yard. The people like Terry Jones who hate how we treat our women, how we are tolerant of all religions, what we show on TV, how we treat LGBT's. How far should we bend over to accommodate our home-grown religious fanatics?

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #39)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:23 AM

41. Just as far as we bend over for foreign religious fanatics

 

Condemn him, certainly. But that is all we can do. He has broken no laws. The ones who did that live in Libya and Egypt.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #41)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:28 AM

44. He and his ilk need the continuous pressure of condemnation from those who reject

his religious bigotry. We, as a society, have been bending to the Coulters, the Buchanans, the Dolans, the Phelps's, etc., for decades now.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #44)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:31 AM

46. I agree,

 

But I also think we need to hold the religious fanatics abroad just as responsible for killing innocents. Do you agree?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #46)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:43 PM

57. Absolutely.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:12 AM

37. Your assertion "don't coddle religious fanatics" doesn't limit to riot. Do you now restate your OP

 

position as "irreligious fanatics never kill innocents?

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Response to jody (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:20 AM

40. Frankly I'm not getting the point of this post, or your previous one,

 

Please restate in a more comprehensible form and I'll respond.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #40)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:26 AM

43. My posts have a single theme "Hate the deed not the person(s)" as in hate riots regardless of whether

 

done by religious or irreligious groups.

Your OP spewed hate toward religious groups who rioted and I added irreligious.

That was my first post that you chose to misunderstand.

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Response to jody (Reply #43)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:30 AM

45. Thank you for your explanation,

 

The fact of the matter is that I didn't choose to misunderstand, I simply didn't comprehend what you were saying. To me, it was rather vague. If that somehow offends you, no offense meant.

Second of all, I'm not spewing hate towards religious groups, where you came up with that, I don't know. I am condemning a group of religious fanatics for rioting and killing, all in the name of being insulted by a film. Please understand the difference.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #45)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:40 AM

48. No offense taken. I pushed a simple point so other readers might focus on the deed not the doers.

 

I believe in the Golden Rule as a basic axiom for morality whether one is religious or irreligious.

That statement is also in the Humanist Manifesto, e.g. "Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness."

see http://www.americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III



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Response to jody (Reply #43)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:30 PM

66. You cannot separate the deed from the cause

Yes, hate the deed, but trying to ignore the fact that the cause was religious fanaticism is like a cat trying to hid his mess on a linoleum floor.

Murder can happen for a lot of reasons. In this case a bad film by religious zealots was made for the very purpose of causing a shitstorm. Another group a religious zealots upped the ante of hate and decided to murder some innocent people.

It wasn't a bad movie that caused the murder; if that was the case America would have an extra wave of killings every time a Tom Cruise movie came out. It was religion that caused the murders.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #66)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:41 PM

70. I see we have different opinions. I can live with that. nt

 

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Response to jody (Reply #70)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:58 PM

71. Meaning you don't think that religious fanaticism was the cause for the violence?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:31 AM

6. If it were up to me, the religiously violent would be shipped

to a remote island where they can fight to the last man amongst themselves.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:03 PM

73. So we'd just be left with the regular violent?

What a utopia.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #73)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:06 PM

82. Not utopia--but still better.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:54 PM

103. I'd be happy to donate $$ to finance the trip.

I've long been done with fundamentalists of all religions.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:49 AM

13. With every right comes a responsibility,

something too few Americans seem to recognize. This is considerably more than a schoolyard squabble. There is a professional hate machine operating throughout the Muslim world. The sensible thing for Americans to do is to be more aware that they (fundamentalist Muslims) are a backward people with too little information and too much time on their hands. Only Israel receives more monetary aid than Egypt. We don't give Egypt that money because we happen to love Egyptians, but to reward them for not entering into wars against Israel and to keep watch on the tunnels coming out of the Gaza strip. So cutting off the funds to Egypt will have unintended consequences.

We have been allowing religious fanatics to dictate policy here since 1948...Netanyahu is simply the last, and boldest, in a long line of bullies and blackmailers.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:59 AM

20. So we should allow religious fanatics thousands of miles away

 

Dictate what we can and cannot say, can and cannot do, out of some sort misguided attempt at cultural tolerance.

You do realize that fundamentalist Muslims aren't just pissed at America for stunts like this one, but for virtually all of the films coming out of Hollywood. They despise the fact that we don't treat our women like they treat theirs, that we tolerate all religious faiths in our country, that we allow smoking and drinking in our country, that we do nothing about sexual promiscuousness in our country, on and on, a whole litany of things that they despise us for.

So, out of misguided sense of cultural tolerance or responsibility, how far down that road do you want to go? No films like this little one, how about no films at all? How about dressing our women in burkas? Or abolishing drinking? You start going down that road, and it is hard to turn back.

It is their responsibility to catch up with the rest of the world, not our responsibility to hold ourselves back as some sort of appeasement to them.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:59 AM

21. Unrec...over the top...no one is coddling them...

But Americans are put into harm's way when our own religious fanatics don't act responsibly.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:03 AM

28. They put out that film to ACHIEVE goal to force US into war with Iran and the entire Muslim world.

"reaction' is an understatement....this was deliberate warmongering, plain and simple.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:05 AM

31. Spoken from behind the lens and safety...

.. of your computer screen.

If you are convinced that the sole reason this happened, was a film DESIGNED to inflame the seeds of violent hatred and rotting, evil bigotry, then quite frankly, you are part of the problem. That fucking powder keg has packed full to the hilt for decades and that POS HATE movie simply lit the fuse. All of the self-righteous drivel in the world does nothing but muddy the waters. You fuck with people long enough, they fuck back.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #31)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:18 AM

38. You're right, that powder keg has been packed full for decades,

 

A hundred years or more. And you know what, it just isn't because of the fact that our citizens put out films that blasphemize their prophet, they have long been pissed because of virtually all the films the West puts out are degenerate in their eyes. They hate us for how we treat our women, how we are tolerant of all religions, our fashion sense(OMG bikinis), what they consider "loose morals", how we treat our LGBT community, on and on the list goes. These are religious fanatics, and they hate virtually everything about our society because it is not modeled after their society. They have wanted to kill Americans because of that for a long time.

So the question becomes how far do we bend over to accommodate them? Stop producing all films? Dress our women in burkas? Kill the LGBT community?

Sorry, but we are a free and sovereign nation, with our own laws, and societal norms. If they can't handle that, that is their problem. We should not change our society or laws to appease a bunch of religious fanatics.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #38)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:46 AM

50. HOGWASH.

This crap could have been written by a fucking Neocon justifying our illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq:

"They hate us for how we treat our women, how we are tolerant of all religions, our fashion sense(OMG bikinis), what they consider "loose morals", how we treat our LGBT community, on and on the list goes. These are religious fanatics, and they hate virtually everything about our society because it is not modeled after their society. They have wanted to kill Americans because of that for a long time."

Wrongo pal.

They "hate us" for all of the shitty, thieving, murderous things our government and military have done IN THEIR WORLD, and don't much give a flying fuck about "our freedoms" (whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean) to do what we want here.

Save it for the dittoheads and Teabaggers.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #50)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:24 PM

53. Do you know who Sayyid Qutb is?

 

Have you ever read any of his work?

Qutb was a leading member of the Muslim brotherhood, and he provided the philosophic impetus behind fundamentalist Islam. He despised Christianity because it was a religion that separated the sacred and the secular, "render unto Cesar what is Cesar's and render unto God what is God's". He thought that was a faulty basis for any society, that all of society should be united in glorifying God.

He felt that women were shunning their responsibility to shape human character through child rearing if a woman decided to follow her heart and have a career.

He looked upon the West as degenerate, a cancer that should be eradicated, because ours was a secular society, a secular culture. He believed that a worldwide caliphate, guided by Sharia Law, should be established, and that if necessary, violence was to be used in order to establish it.

Here are a few references for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyed_Qutb
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-author=Sayyid%20Qutb&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ASayyid%20Qutb

I suggest that if you want to get a true feel for Qutb's philosophy and ideology, you read both "Milestones" and "Social Justice in Islam".

The point is, no, I'm not spewing hogwash. There is an ever growing group of fundamentalist Muslims who do indeed hate us for our society and culture, and that fact has been been true for decades now, long before WWII when we first got seriously involved in the Middle East(until WWII, Britain was the main shit-stirrer in the Middle East, we had enough oil and didn't need theirs until after the war).

The thing is, as radical as Qutb was, there are those now who denounce him for not being radical enough.
http://www.sayyidqutb.com/

Yet these ever more radicalized sects all have one thing in common with the Muslim Brotherhood and Qutb, a distinct hatred for Western Society and a desire to remake it all in their own image of a religious caliphate dominated by Sharia Law.

That isn't hogwash, that isn't hype, that is the truth. Read the literature, and judge for yourself.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #53)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:26 PM

63. One more time.

Save it for the Neocons and Teabaggers. That's the level you are at. This is precisely the EXACT SAME line of bullshit that they used to beat the wardrums with during George the Monkeyfuck's lead up to the His Great Crusade in the Middle East. I care fuckall what some religious radical fuckstick may have written. It sure as fuck ISN'T about "our freedoms" no matter how many to times you repeat that BIG LIE. No sale, pal.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #63)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:11 PM

84. How do you know it isn't about our culture,

 

What the religious fanatics have said about it? You haven't read it, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Thanks for demonstrating just how liberals can be stuck on stupid, engage in meaningless talkingpoints, and ignorant of the issues. You give all liberals a bad name.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #84)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:47 PM

100. Because I don't have my head up my ass like a...

.. a Neocon dirtbag, that's "how I know."

Sell your schtick at the next Teabaggers Rally.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #84)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:32 PM

105. And BTW, fellow "Democrat"...

.. using the word liberal in a pathetic attempt to insult me, says a whole fucking lot more about you than it does me. The only people who have ever tried that shit on me before, were all dyed in the wool, hardcore Republicans. Aren't you proud to share tactics with Rush El Druggie Limbaugh and Scum Hannity?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:08 AM

33. Discussing/Exploring the social implications of propaganda does not = "coddling" (nt)

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:35 AM

47. it was that fucking asshole that made the film.

whether you can understand it or not, different culture are. . . well different!

everything in the world should not be measured by American standards of 'freedom'.

good fucking grief.
that asshole had the right to make his stupid film but he shouldn't get one ounce of support from anyone. And this is what you do when you blame 'those crazy foreigners' for what is happening. That is one of the main problems of American power - you just don't get that other people have different attitudes and feelings - if it doesn't seem like yours - then it's wrong.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #47)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:43 AM

49. Fundamentalist Muslims hate everything about America,

 

And have for a long time. They hate the clothes our women wear, they hate virtually any movie coming out of Hollywood, they hate how we treat the LGBT community, they hate the fact that we allow alcohol.

So how far are you willing to bend over to accommodate these religious fanatics in the name of cultural tolerance? Dress our women in burkas and don't let them drive? Kill off the entire LGBT community? Put an end to Hollywood movies? Just how far are you willing to go? Because it just ain't this one little movie that gets Islamic fundamentalists riled up, it is a good chunk of American culture, and that has been the case for nearly one hundred years now.

I'm not supporting the film, I think it is vile and over the top. But I do defend the filmmaker's right to make it. I always defend free speech, whether it is Occupy speaking out, or the homegrown religious fundies.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:58 AM

51. clean up your own back yard of haters first

you give the Michelle Bachman crazies ammunition to start religious wars wit this. I hope you realize this. She can do what that asshole film maker did and it would be 'their' fault, of course. Those backward furiners just don't understand freedom like Michelle Bachman and the rest of America.

please, I'm about to bring up my Cream of Wheat brekkie.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #51)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:29 PM

56. So again, how far are you willing to bend over

 

Say we do limit free speech in this country, and disallow people like Jones to make their little movies.

Are you willing to dress our women in burkas just to appease Muslim fundamentalists? After all, they might riot if we don't.

Are you willing to kill our LGBT population just to appease Muslim fundamentalists? After all, they might riot if we don't?

Are you willing to shut down all of Hollywood just to appease Muslim fundamentalists? After all, they might riot if we don't?

This list can go on and on, so the question is, just how much are you willing to limit our freedoms to placate a relatively small group of extremists?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #56)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:07 PM

58. I am not suggesting limited free speech

I already said that.

I am suggesting that before you go all ragey on 'those furiners' you should first consider shutting up that asshole that provoked all this - and how to shut him up is to shame him and condemn his incitement for violence, not to take away his 'free speech' - however the fuck you want to interrupt that little nugget talking point.

I am willing to kill LGBT to appease fundies?? wtf, you've fallin off your nut. I'm not talking to your kind of incendiary incitement of hate. You are positioning for something to pin on Obama because of your consistent hate of him and this is a vehicle for just that, imho, not for the safety of anyone - if you want to throw out accussations I can as well.

- o for fuck's sake go take a warm glass of milk or a run around the block to expel that ridiculous tension and hate that dwells in your insides. You are a sad person

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Response to MadHound (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:40 PM

97. How do we bend over and accommodate them?

We started two wars over it. We've killed many of them for the acts of their co-religionists. Most of us on DU were not behind this at all, but the fundy Christians certainly were.

Also it's not just about religion or this film. It's the whole long history of the west vs. the mid-east and the creation of Israel - too much flaming of the hatreds over the years has lead to all of this.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:00 PM

52. nobody's coddled anyone. Obama said they would be brought to justice.

p.s. nobody usually dies in a playground squabble.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:28 PM

55. No, I condemn both actions.

The hate speech/ bigotry exhibited in the film and the violent reaction to it, if that is in fact what happened.

No, religion poisons everything.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:27 PM

64. Do you think inciting to violence is 'the act of a civilized people'?

The US justice system disagrees with you.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:30 PM

65. You're the one coddling the filmmaker

Terry Jones is as much a fucking religious fanatic as any fundamentalist.

What tripe!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #65)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:44 PM

77. +1

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:32 PM

67. Agreed.

 

Well said.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:38 PM

68. They will be brought to justice, but something people should

realize is that even though we have free speech, which should be protected at all costs, people also have their reactions to speech. Free speech is not really free, if you look at it that way. Luckily, most reactions to speech are verbal and nonviolent.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:11 PM

74. Hey, are you a shill or just tragically naive?

 

Inquiring minds want to know. Because you DO realize that this may all be one big, stinking, fucking LIE to get us into yet another "conflict" (which is one-sided)? We killed Libya's LEADER, for God's sake! And yet now WE'RE up at arms?

GOT. CAJONES?

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Response to false flags a-go-go (Reply #74)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:24 PM

86. Well, considering I've been around here a hell of lot longer than you,

 

I think that speaks for itself as to whether or not I'm a shill. But thanks for that noob "concern".

As far as naive goes, no, actually I'm probably better informed about the Middle East than many people, having studied and traveled the region at one point during my life.

As far as your conspiracy theory ranting that this is an attempt to get us into war, well, I seriously doubt that. Most black bag ops on that kind of scale are a hell of a lot more sophisticated.

Oh, and Khadafi was killed by the revolutionary forces in Libya, not the US.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:37 PM

76. I agree with Madhound and further more..

....think the proper response is to publish Mohammed cartoons in every paper every day till they get over it.....After the 1,000 cartoon I bet they would shrug it off like big boys.

Can't have just one religion in the world that is off-limits for contrary opinions, humor or abuse.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:58 PM

79. We should recall our ambassador and refuse to have official relations

until they act like civilized people and agree that people who condone, through inaction, killing people over a film don't deserve a place at the table in a civilized world.


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Response to WCGreen (Reply #79)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:00 PM

80. You realize the Libyan government already condemned the killings, right?

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #80)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:07 PM

83. Did not, just woke up from a long sleep and because I don't watch TV news first thing,

I turn to DU for that, I saw this and posted my opinion.

But I follow up, is the government of Libya going to arrest and prosecute the people who killed the four Americans?

Condemning is one thing, prosecuting is quite another.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #83)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:23 PM

85. Yes

CAIRO -- Senior officials in Libya on Wednesday condemned the killing of the U.S. ambassador to the country and three other Americans by armed protesters in a furor over an anti-Muslim video.

<snip>

"This is a criminal act that will not go unpunished. This is part of a series of cowardice acts by supporters of the former regime who want to undermine Libya's revolution," Prime Minister Abdurrahim Keib told reporters.

Keib said the details of the attack were under investigation.

Libyan President Mohamed Magariaf apologized for the deaths and vowed that justice would be served.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/09/us-ambassador-killed-libya.html


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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #85)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:49 PM

90. Then I stand corrected.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:25 PM

87. Okay, so we do coddle religious fanatics when they incite riots...

...but we don't coddle religious fanatics when they participate in riots.

Got it.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #87)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:30 PM

88. Who incited a riot?

 

Jones, the person who made the film? I don't think so. They put a provocative piece about Islam out there, that was all they did, and they were perfectly within their right to do so. The people who responded with violence and death are solely responsible for their own actions.

When a theater was set on fire, and violence occurred over the distribution of The Last Temptation of Christ, where did the responsibility for that lie? With the producer of the film or with the fundy Christians who rioted and perpetrated the violence?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #88)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:49 PM

89. I do think so.

I think they made and promoted this film to get the exact reaction that they got. I think violence and death was exactly what they wanted to get out of it.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #89)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:55 PM

92. So in your view, the people who fired the rocket launcher bear no blame,

 

It is all the fault of a couple of Christian fundies here in the States.

Do you realize how that trivializes the people of Libya, how that diminishes them to the level of children, or automons, who don't have the brains, will or skill to control their impulses? How fucking rude, how damn condescending.

Sorry, but as much as I deplore what Jones, et. al. put out there, the fact of the matter is that the responsibility for the deaths and destruction lies solely with the Libyan and Egyptian people.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #92)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 04:06 PM

94. No.

You seem to believe that I think it's an either/or situation.

I don't.

I'm saying they are all to blame, and we should "coddle" (your word) neither.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:52 PM

91. you do, when they're *your* religious fanatics

then at some point you stop, when they wig out, the way religious fanatics are prone to do

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:59 PM

93. Does Dove World Outreach Center pay taxes?

No? Then we're coddling those religious fanatics. And they get no more slack from me than the killers do.

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