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Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:42 AM

Not liking an offensive movie is not an excuse to riot and kill people.

Why do these folks in Libya and Egypt think the US government has anything to do with an Israeli guy's offensive low-budget film?

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Reply Not liking an offensive movie is not an excuse to riot and kill people. (Original post)
Odin2005 Sep 2012 OP
cali Sep 2012 #1
Odin2005 Sep 2012 #7
JDPriestly Sep 2012 #43
greiner3 Sep 2012 #143
JDPriestly Sep 2012 #165
Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #45
Odin2005 Sep 2012 #48
Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #57
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ehrnst Sep 2012 #107
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treestar Sep 2012 #199
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MrDiaz Sep 2012 #223
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tama Sep 2012 #78
coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #135
Odin2005 Sep 2012 #227
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Codeine Sep 2012 #8
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get the red out Sep 2012 #120
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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:43 AM

1. No, but I think the guy who made this is also responsible for the rioting and deaths.

I saw the trailer, did you?

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:49 AM

7. Being offended by a movie is no excuse.

civilized people don't riot and kill because they were offended by a movie.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:25 AM

43. True!

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #43)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:59 AM

143. See post #138;

Except for the OP, the AGREEMENT.

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #143)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:03 AM

165. I can understand demonstrating against a movie -- but killing someone and getting completely

out of control? No way. Movies are just not that important. If it really is that offensive (and some who have seen it say it is but I have not seen it and will not watch it so others will have to decide), then YouTube should just shut it down. YouTube has no obligation to respect the free speech rights of people. It is a private organization, not the government.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:27 AM

45. Define "civilised"

I really think that's quite condescending, in many ways; you manage to display an apparent total lack of awareness of the fact that we're talking about what is in many ways a disctinctly non-Western, non-secular, non-"first world" premodern society, with extreme poverty, high rates of illiteracy, poor education, and fundamentalist religiosity. I put it to you: what result do you think something equally offensive with Christianity as the subject would have had in seventeeth century England? Spain? America? And "offensive" and "blasphemous" are not the same thing, to a believer. Whether you happen to believe yourself is irrelevant (I don't, personally); the fact remains that it's something people who DO believe will take much more seriously.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #45)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:29 AM

48. I have no use for cultural relativism, sorry.

Human rights are universal.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #48)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:34 AM

57. That's a nice idea, but in principle, it doesn't work that way

human societies have vastly different cultures. You don't have to like it, but you're either blind or stupid if you reject it out of hand. Telling a believer not to perceive blasphemy as something worthy of death is not going to fly. You're talking about people who inhabit a completely different consensus reality.

And NB that cultural relativism and moral relativism are NOT THE SAME THING, so please stop acting as though they are, thanks.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:38 AM

60. The "blasphemy" horseshit almost got a Pakistani girl with Down's Syndrome lynched.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #60)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:41 AM

67. Sure, and it got one of my ancestors burned at the stake in the reign of Bloody Mary Tudor

same thing. We're talking about, essentially, a premodern, non-industrialised, poor, uneducated society. Your expecting such a society to have evolved Western, generally, and American, specifically, ideas on freedom of speech and expression is rather touching but shockingly naive.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:27 AM

107. +1000 (nt)

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:41 AM

124. We'll just have to bomb them to the stone age until they modernize!

Swear to god, that's the exact mentality you're having to deal with, there.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:41 AM

125. So, a US female politician would bear responsibility for getting raped over there

After all, they are a "premodern, non-industrialised, poor, uneducated society" and simply can't control themselves when a woman shows up. Sorry, but your excuse making is flat out disgusting.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #125)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:47 AM

132. You notice, noody is blaming the victim here, right?

Nobody's saying the ambassador somehow "deserved" what happened to him. Your comparison doesn't really hold up, on that principle.

A closer example is, say, Uganda. I'm sure you're aware of legislation they're pushing through in that nation that would institute the death penalty for committing a homosexual act, correct? if not, i suppose you are now. Of course the men pushing this law will bear the bulk of hte responsibility for the deaths it will cause (and IS causing, actually - apparently Ugandan homophobes are proactve)

But what about the US congregations funding the initiative? What about the ministers who are telling the Ugandans that what they're doing is right, moral, godly?

it's not about trying to assign blame to the victim - the victim is clearly free from any blame, in the case of the ambassador, and in both your examples and mine.

It's about delivering an appropriate portion of blame to the ringleaders who are inciting what's going on.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #125)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:27 PM

199. Nobody said that

But if you ARE over there, you'd need to take their culture into consideration, no?

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Response to treestar (Reply #199)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:10 PM

245. I agree. However, I was essentially called a supporter of rape for your sentiment just yesterday

It saddens me how quickly people can adjust their logic to fit their desires.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:24 PM

223. so

 

we should just let them be?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #60)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:34 AM

118. Thank you, agree 100%

There is NO WAY to justify killing someone because you don't like a movie, or to justify what happened to that poor girl.

No justification for outright MURDER. NONE. Murder is uncivilized. They didn't even go after the guy that made the film, so long as you were American, in their eyes, you should die. I'd bet they would have killed an American Muslim just as quikly to satisy their UNCIVILIZED blood lust.

I think we should have the freedom of speech to call things as they actually are and not make excuses for people who work very hard at making this world a horrible place, no matter where they are or who they are.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:28 AM

108. Well if that's the case maybe we should just take their fucking Internet away...

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #48)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:57 AM

78. How so?

 

I thought Human rights were a social contract - ie. cultural relativism - not a universal truth dictated by God.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #48)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:49 AM

135. Do those same 'human rights' apply to the estimated 500,000 Iraqi children who

 

died as a direct result of economic sanctions maintained by the U.S. on Iraq during the 90s? The U.S. Secretary of State at the time, Madeleine Albright, subsequently declared the deaths of those children 'worth it.'

So I'm wondering just how deep your commitment to universal human rights runs. IOW, the phrase 'human rights,' like ('terrorism') is itself a culturally relativist term. So you are deploying cultural relativist rhetoric while decrying cultural relativism. No sin in that, but the paradox is, imo, worth some reflection.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #135)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:29 PM

227. Those sactions were wrong.

Since such sanctions invariably harm the people without harming the regime. as Saddam demonstrated very well.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #48)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:54 AM

136. To deliberately incite violence using cultural hotpoints is wrong.

That's arrogance to assume that all cultures should think as yours - and react as you do to any given situation.

No, there's not a Black/White metric here. This is much more complicated than can be covered by just saying "human rights"

Yes, they rioted. They rioted for reasons you don't agree with, and don't understand - yes, there are reasons that people become enraged. This does not mean they are justified.

The riots after the Rodney King verdict weren't about "some guy who got stopped by the police." It was about a long standing issue that the people of South Central had with law enforcement and justice being denied. NO - I don't agree with it, but it was not surprising, given the CIRCUMSTANCES.

Fred Phelps showing up at funerals picketing with GOD HATES FAGS posters - normally "civilized" people don't get enraged at people carrying posters with text on them. But you understand why they are enraged, and you don't say, "Well that man carrying the sign had Nothing whatsoever to do with those rude people get so upset and shouting at him and wanting him to leave."

Yes, I understand that's not rioting and killing, but you don't call the people who are reacting in a predictable way in that circumstance "uncivilized"





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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #45)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:27 AM

174. There's also the fact that they have just been through intense violence

When people fear for their and their family\friends' lives, they lean more heavily on their religion for personal support, answers, etc. I think there is a certain cruelty to disregarding such circumstances.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #174)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:30 PM

229. i think

 

there is a certain cruelty involved when an innocent man is being sought after then attacked and murdered for some idiot making a low budget film. Regardless of reasoning.

Do you not agree? Funny how the victims are not the number one priority in your eyes but the attackers are.

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Response to MrDiaz (Reply #229)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:35 PM

252. Number one priority is the safety of those associated with the embassy

I didn't see anyone making the attackers their # 1 concern. Funny? No. And Mitt did the most stupid mistake possible in making a statement as he did in the middle of a crises.

It seems to me that you are pointing at something you yourself, have made up. Don't make it out to be so simplistic and so much like a sound bite. There's more than meets the eye in the situation at hand.

We too have fundamentalist radicals in this country, who are willing to wage war on anyone who dares disrespect their beliefs.

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Response to MrDiaz (Reply #229)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:56 PM

268. Funny how you distort my post

I would categorize the impetus behind the killer as rage. The rage is justified, the killing is not. The subtext of a dismissal of cultural turmoil and trying to shove the people who are living it into a box consistent with one's own beliefs is "my way or the highway" jingoism.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #45)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:23 PM

222. nobody

 

is forcing anyone to watch trailors or any movie, they chose to and they chose to riot and kill innocent americans.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 02:03 AM

271. Well said. n/t

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:42 AM

127. If people rioted after MIB 3 in Illinois, then you'd have a point.

But this is the middle east, it is a different culture, with different cultural boundaries, the the Fuckwads that made this film knew what they were doing.

No, I don't condone killing. But I'm not going to condone the hate speech that was calculated to pour gasoline on hot coals.

If a someone dressed as a Nazi showed up at a funeral for a Holocaust survivor, and was assaulted by some mourners, would you be so dismissive of the "uncivilized" behavior of the mourners?

You'd acknowledge that the person doing this had an agenda, and had little business calling the mourners "uncivilized."

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #127)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:42 AM

176. +1 nt.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #127)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 06:11 AM

272. if i went

 

to the republican national convention wearing an i love obama shirt, and telling the repukes that everything they believe is wrong and they beat the shit out of me and put me in the hospital, would that be my fault for going there knowing that i was offending them?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:51 AM

162. How about "Jud Süss" - that sort of got people offended enough to kill

Just a little movie - nothing that anyone should have taken seriously, right?

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/judsuss.html

Or that other little art house movie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Will

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:28 PM

225. Religious fundamentalists of three religions caused this, Islamic, Christian and Jewish

Unfortunately, revenge was taken out on those who were innocent and not responsible. However, Americans cannot claim a high road here, considering the abuses of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo of the last decade.

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:49 AM

8. No. The fucknuts who are rioting and killing over a stupid little half-assed film

bear 100% of the responsibility.

I simply REFUSE to buy into the "watch what you say" mentality.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:10 AM

26. Yup, the "what what you say" crap just plays into RW talking points...

...about "political correctness".

People do not have a right not to be offended.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #26)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:06 AM

86. Not really. The RW should be held accountable for their hate speech too.

The reason they whine about political correctness is that it protects them from being responsible for what they say. There is having your opinion and there is using your air-waves to influence others toward violence.

The people who chose to riot and kill ARE responsible for their actions. However the whole "mob mentality" issue is a known factor that civilized societies understand needs to be dealt with as well.

Here is a totally different example.

You have a bar, end of the night, people have had a lot to drink and are getting ready to go home. A group of gays minding their own business have been getting harassed off and on all night, but have restrained themselves from reacting and things settled down on their own.

Then someone puts a video up on the flat screen that is about eradicating the gay menace and celebrates vigilantes that go beat the hell out of gays. The gays protest to the manager about this crap being played and if the manager says, "Hey, I didn't put that on there guys. It's a free country. People can say what they want."

Does the manager have a responsibility for what is played on his flat screen in his own establishment? Of course.

If he didn't put it up there, then the responsible thing do say would be, "Look, I didn't put that on there guys. I'll shut it down."

Either way, if tensions are already high, maybe that group of haters isn't going to LET those gays walk out of the bar without a beat down.

Whatever assh*le that put up that vid shares responsibility for whatever violence follows because they used a known tactic to incite riots.

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #86)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:35 AM

120. +1

Great comment.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:43 AM

69. So you are against laws that say you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater?

This is about much more than "watch what you say" it's about misusing a powerful medium during a time of war to put fuel on the flames.

It's difficult here to sort out the truth from propaganda, so how are people half way across the world not to know this isn't some government film that represents the US attitude toward them?

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #69)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:32 AM

115. That's a really stupid analogy.

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Response to JVS (Reply #115)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:34 AM

119. If you walk into a Jewish funeral dressed as a Nazi and yelling Heil Hitler -

How's that for an analogy?

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #119)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:12 AM

147. How about finding an actual example

of either a Christian, Jew or Hindu or Wiccan or whatever that murdered someone over a slight to their "prophet" or "savior". And do try not to go back hundreds of years.

Even using your example - it's not an excuse to riot or murder. Did you see riots and murders when the nazis got a parade permit in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood in IL? No, you did not.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #147)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:37 AM

151. Difference between Analogy and Example....

Riots and murder are at the far spectrum of angry reaction. Nor did I ever "excuse" rioting or killing. To understand something,a nd even say it was predictable is not the same as approving of it.

What is a "slight" to you may have far greater significance to someone else in a situation and history is much different.

I don't excuse the reaction that Southern whites had to segregation - but it was predictable, and precautions were taken. We would be aghast and shocked if that same response happened in 2012, because we are in a very different point in our culture. We have a couple hundred years of a secular, diverse society (mosque bombings, clinic bombings, attacks on Sikhs notwithstanding)

To say that the rioters - at this place, in this point in their history - should be expected to react as Americans would is naive. This is NOT excusing them - but I will also NOT excuse the deliberate attempt to incite this violence by the filmmakers for creating hate speech and propaganda - any more than I would excuse someone for yelling "shooter!!" in a crowded theatre.




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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:33 AM

116. The fucknuts that made this film wanted this to happen - intended for violence to happen.

Then stand back and say "Who me?"

It may be a half-assed little film to you, but you aren't the intended audience.

If someone walked into a funeral in a synagogue dressed as a Nazi, yelling "Hitler was right!!!" to show how "violent" Jews can get - would you say the same about "watch what you say?"

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #116)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:41 AM

175. One doubts the synagogue attendees

would storm the local American embassy and kill innocents, or riot in the streets. That might be the difference, yeah?

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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:17 AM

149. Mostly agree

But this is the equivalant of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, and lighting off a few smoke bombs.

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #149)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:10 AM

171. No it's not. It's a fucking MOVIE. That made fun of some dead dude. (nt)

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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:29 PM

200. But whoever made the film knew that it could happen

You go into a square in a middle eastern country and start saying Fuck Allah, and what happens? You can say they are "wrong" to kill you but why did you do it if you didn't expect to be killed?

We don't have to go out of our way to get them riled up. What is the purpose of anyone who does that? It's poor diplomacy - note that's why people who work over there don't do these things.

That poor ambassador - he got the fallout, expected, of those who did the film.

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Response to treestar (Reply #200)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:42 PM

212. They bear the responsibility for their own

fucknuttery. And if saying "Islam sucks" results in such behavior. . .

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:55 AM

13. Nope.

The rioters are responsible. No movie, no matter how offensive, is an excuse for mayhem and murder.

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Response to drm604 (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:13 AM

31. + Infinity!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #31)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:40 AM

63. I don't know...

 

I was pretty offended by Event Horizon and Superman returns...

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:43 AM

128. I strongly disagree.

Yes, it was certainly predictable that the response to the video would include violence by insane, superstitious vermin with homicidal tendencies. It's not as if it hasn't happened before, ad nauseam. But that predictable nature doesn't in any way transfer culpability from those who committed the violence. Homicide is not remotely an acceptable response to having one's feelings hurt over an insult to a personality cult.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #128)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:56 AM

137. "insane, superstitious vermin" - why am I flashing back to 1930s Germany? I almost

 

alerted on this language, but think you should get at least once chance to defend your choice of words.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #137)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:05 AM

168. Sure:

"insane" - I can't think of why anyone would consider reacting with murderous violence to a video as something otherthan insane.

"superstitious" - I'm an atheist. I consider all religion to be superstition, not just Islam.

"vermin" - Again, I consider anyone who commits murder over an insulting video to be verminous.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #137)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:08 AM

170. PS:

Pretty much calling me a Nazi is at least as over-the-top as anything I posted (and rather more so, in my estimation). But don't worry: not planning on reporting it.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #170)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:51 AM

179. PPS: In the twenties and the thirties in Germany, the Nazis routinely referred to the Jews as

 

'vermin' (identical to language you just used).

But go ahead and report me, if you feel you must.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #179)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:06 PM

187. So you're saying that all of the Jews in 1920's and 1930's Germany...

...are equivalent to people who would murder 4 people over a movie that they found offensive. Well alright then...

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #187)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:30 PM

202. You know who compared Jews to murderers?

The Nazis.

Double Godwinned!

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #179)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:24 PM

195. PPPS:

Sure...because the context of our respective usages of the word are just so similar, innocent victims of genocidal tyrants being equivalent to homicidal religious fanatics and all that...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #195)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:48 PM

215. PPPPS: Dehumanizing people by calling them 'vermin' is but one step on the road to exterminating

 

them in the name of whatever ideology you're following at the moment.

Hint: your use of the word 'vermin' is pretty close to out-and-out racism. That's probably why you are doing a Romney and doubling down on your usage of it.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #215)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:15 PM

246. Ah, not content to call me a Nazi, you do a little doubling down of you own...

..and call em a racist. This despite my making it abundantly clear to anyone with an IQ larger than their shoe size that I was speaking very spefically about the murderers in Libya, and no one else. To be racist, one must be referring to, you know...a race.

Moreover, you're the one who elected to bring race into the conversation at all. Even if my use of "vermin" could be correctly interpreted as referring to Islam (and it can't...that was the "superstitious" part), it's still not racism. Islam isn't a race, it's a religion (practiced by all races).

Derp.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #246)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:44 PM

253. Little history lesson for you: during the Tet offensive of January 1968, forces

 

of the NLF attacked and briefly occupied portions of the American embassy in Saigon. Were those 'vermin' by your standards? Or maybe you would have used the term then in fashion, i.e., 'gook'. Oh sure, you could have said, I wasn't using 'gook' to refer to all Vietnamese, only to those who attacked our embassy. No matter that the term 'gook' dehumanized then, just as the term 'vermin' does today and back in the 30s.

No, your use of 'vermin' was not referring to Islam, but it was referring to Muslims (those who observe Islam).

Rather than dehumanizing them by calling them 'vermin,' you might want to consider what might possibly enrage a people to the point where they are willing to violate Western diplomatic norms. I'm not holding my breath though. Calling them 'vermin' is so much easier and requires so much less work.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #253)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 04:09 PM

254. You should quit while you're behind.

You do realize that in your example, the term employed is clearly racist (in that it refers to, you know...race), right? And that my clearly-specific usage was not directed at a race at all.

"No, your use of 'vermin' was not referring to Islam, but it was referring to Muslims (those who observe Islam)."


Which is a reference to their religion, not their race...as previously pointed out. How many repetitions of this staggereingly obvious point is it going to take for it to sink in? "Muslim" is not a race.

Here's another free clue for you: I've already considered "what might possibly enrage a people to the point where they are willing to violate Western diplomatic norms." I've also considered what might enrage them far beyond that to the point where a handful were apparently so enraged that they were willing to murder people over their outrage. After this consideration, I came to the conclusion that the murderers were vermin, and I stand by that description. There is <i>no</i> justifying or rationalizing such an obviously pathological response.n Careful consideration of a situation doesn't preclude employing harsh descriptors when the situation deserves them. And this one most emphatically does...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #254)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:30 PM

257. You keep erecting straw men out of my words, and then knocking them down. I nowhere

 

said you were engaging in racism, although I did say your use of the word 'vermin' came perilously close to out-and-out racism.

My point was that your use of the word 'vermin' referred to people (Muslims), just like the Nazi's use of that same word referred to people (Jews). IOW, you are dehumanizing people, just as the Nazis did. And no amount of slapping yourself on the back for not being a racist, narrowly defined, can wish that little annoying fact away, try as you might.

I note you never did answer my question about the NLF attacking the U.S. embassy in Saigon during Tet '68. No doubt, in your mind, the forces who attacked the embassy then were also 'vermin.' But here's a free clue for you: if the NLF who attacked the U.S. embassy were not 'vermin' but the Libyans who attacked the U.S.embassy are 'vermin,' you can see how the 'racism' tag might start to come into play. Or maybe not. OTOH, if you consider that both groups of embassy attackers were and\or are 'vermin,' then you're setting yourself firmly in the tradition of a long line of Western imperialists with all the racist baggage that carries. But don't let me stop you, since I'm already 'behind.'



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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #257)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:52 PM

260. Oh God, the irony!

Erecting straw men (via fallacious extrapolation, for the most part) has been the entire focus of your multiple diatribes against me. Pure. Comedy. Gold.

I'll make this my last attempt to clarify your staggeringly wrong-headed analysis of my position before ignoring you. Did I "dehumanize" the vermin who committed these murders? Damn right I did. I consider murderers to be less than human, an evaluation that I make with precisely zero regard to race or religion. Did I dehumanize anyone else? Obviously not. I draw a hard, fast line between those people who quite rightfully object to that "Western imperialism" and those who commit the murder of innocents in reaction not to forcible oppression, to violence, or even to the viable threat thereof, but over an insult to their religion. Those people are vermin, and no amount of sanctimonious offense based on an absurd misapplication of the clearly stated actual target of the attribution is going to change that.

Toodles.

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:57 AM

139. I tend to think the people responsible are responsible

 

what kind of movie would it take to get you to kill multiple innocent people?

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:43 AM

155. This is so wrong....

...you don't bomb and kill people for movies that criticize, lampoon, speak ill of, disagree with...your faith. Period. There aren't exceptions.

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:23 PM

194. I did - the movie was fucked up, but that's no excuse for murder. n/t

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 06:52 AM

274. I think he's responsible

for being an insensitive jerk. But not really responsible for the actions of others. The killing of the four diplomats is on the people who actually killed them.

There are a lot of movies that criticize a lot of religions.

I didn't see a lot of people rioting after Bill Maher's Religulous or Dogma (Kevin Smith) or Sarah Silverman's Jesus is Magic.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:44 AM

2. And commenting about a provocative, hateful film is not giving an excuse..it's making an observation

 

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:45 AM

3. Much of the world does not understand freedom of speech like we do.

They will tie something one American does to all of America because they don't agree with it.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:47 AM

4. wrong analogy

 

you seem to think the people in Libya and Egypt are under American laws and rules and thinking. The rightwing in America keeps telling people to bomb Iran, Libya, Egypt and every other nation.

Mitt Romney makes a political hit and run on obama.

And different societies have the right to do whatever they want

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:49 AM

9. Human rights, including freedom of speech, are universal.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:58 AM

15. makes me wonder if a repubteapartylibertarian sympathizer set this up

 

to get the rightwing reaction it has

(btw- notice how fast the repubteapartylibertarians pounced on this, as if they
had pre-notice it would happen, hmmmmmmmmmmm
(and I am not a cter either).

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:00 AM

17. also, are you saying in the name of human rights we should bomb them in revenge?

 

Last edited Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:28 AM - Edit history (1)

self edited
do not mean this personally, meant it as a corrolation that one thing leads to another like Bibi would like us to do(bomb the world)

I most certainly did not mean the poster thought this apologies if it was taken that way and in heat of moment I wrote it that way

I thought the question mark at end of sentence showed I wasn't saying a statment of fact, but asking a what-if correlation

my apologies.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:12 AM

29. Where the fuck did I say I wanted to bomb them in revenge?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #29)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:29 AM

110. apologies, you didn't I was attempting a corrolation aand i self edited the above

 

nothing personal, it wasn't aimed at you personally
thought the ? at end of title showed that, post is now edited

I was meaning Bibi and how he wants everyone to be bombed

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #110)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:32 PM

231. Apology accepted.

Bibi sucks. I think it was I who invented the Nut-N-Yahoo epithet given to him sometimes on DU.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:48 AM

71. You fucking know better than that.

Step off.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:59 AM

82. What a nasty thing to say to another DUer

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #82)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:12 AM

89. but I didn't say it as a personal, I said it as a corrolation (a leads to b is c)

 

so you agree we apologize to Libya and Egypt and everyone else and ask for calm and peace

that is what I would do

Remember in 2001-2 when Tom Daschle did not want to sign on to war, and Sean and Rush ranted and raved and he was called the devil (his wife too) and voila, he got anthraxxed?

and mobs are not rational, hence the term mobs.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #89)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:19 AM

97. You absolutely did make it personal to that poster.

You should go back and edit what you said.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #97)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:24 AM

101. no problem don't sweat the small stuff

 

apology if you thought so or the other poster thought so

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #101)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:26 AM

105. That's a non-apology apology

You suggested something that crossed a line in reference to another poster. The adult thing to do would say " I should not have said that, I'm sorry" and delete the post.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #105)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:33 AM

117. I edited the post, to delete it would make the five other posts weird

 

you said edit the post, I did immediately (and also apologized to you on this post)

to delete the top post would make the five after downright weird
(you would need to delete your response, then this response, etc.

it's really done and over, so why keep it going?

and again, the ? at the end of the title showed I wasn't saying a personal, but whatever.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #117)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:40 AM

123. I am glad you editted it

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:32 PM

205. Not in Libya for the last few decades

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:47 AM

5. Is there anyone, ANYONE on DU who is saying otherwise? That doesn't mean those stoking the violence

and spreading their own brand of bigoted hate with this movie, should be held up as mere "innocent" advocates of Free Speech and held to no account, whatsoever.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:53 AM

11. Remember the rioting over the offensive Mohammed cartoons?

People have a right to be offensive and people have a right to respond CIVILLY to it. People do not have a right not to be offended in a free society.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:59 AM

16. The Middle East is not the United States. We might like to asert our views and philosophy on them...

but, guess what... they are not the province of the US and for most have NEVER experienced nor embraced the concept of free speech. As much as we might like to assume our own system to be the hallmark by which the world functions, it is not at this point in time. Nor are we innocent in the eyes of most in the ME, given our entry into wars in their region, including one based on fabrications.

If we are ever to make progress in the ME, our views are going to have to be a bit more comprehensive and we are going to have to check our HATE-filled, bigoted agitators, even while we try to find a balance in preservation of free speech.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:08 AM

24. That is a dangerous slope you are rolling on.

Freedom is speech is a universal human right and it includes speech that you don't like. Do you want us to censor stuff here just because somebody in another country will be offended by it?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:20 AM

37. Can you explain to me...

Why DU'ers can on the one hand demand public employees have absolutely no right whatsoever to free speech, and on the other hand rally to the defense of such paragons as the KKK, Neo-nazis, and this fucking film's right to that very same "freedom of speech"?

I figure it's because a sizable number of DU'ers are, heart and soul, extreme fucking bigots who want to make their hate look progressive. I could be wrong, maybe it's just a bunch of very, VERY stupid people falling over themselves to see who can go the furthest out on a limb to defend the worst things they can possibly find.

At any rate, you're defending a film that posits one point five human beings on the planet are inherently subhuman monsters and scum, that the world would be better-off without.

So... good for you.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:26 AM

44. When did I say public employees have no right to free speech?

I think you are confusing me with somebody else. I consider freedom of speech to be the near-sacred bedrock of a free society. I may hate what you say, but I will defend your right to say it.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #44)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:16 AM

93. It's a question about DU in general, sorry if there's a misunderstanding.

I mean in one day I can see people screaming about how teachers have no right to strike, or express political opinions... and then the next thread over, people falling over themselves in a self-congratulatory orgy of "defending free speech" for a Klan rally or something.

And yes yes, clichéd Voltaire quote... if I had a nickel for every time someone spouted that off on the internet, I'd own my own home and twelve acres of land. Hate to tell you, mr. Fawkes, but your right to speech doesn't work in quite the elementary school way you seem to think it does.

First, it's a law restricting Congress. It's not a law restricting your fellow citizens, or for that matter the judicial branch. Laws may not be passed that would abridge your right or ability to speak, but there is nothing stopping your neighbors from taking you to task for what you say... or taking you to court. Those courts have found that not all forms of speech are worthy of protection under our first amendment; intimidation for instance. Libel, slander, and incitement are others. Hate speech in commission of a crime adds to the severity of a sentencing, as can statements of intent.

That is to say, the United States legislature could not pass a law outright banning the production of films like this. However this in no way prevents say, an ambassador's family from seeking suit against a filmmaker if they feel the filmmaker's expression caused, even if just in part, the death of their loved one. There is nothing halting the court from finding the case in their favor, either. For that matter, it's within the bounds of congress's to exclude certain forms and degrees of speech from first amendment protection, similar to how certain forms of weaponry are excluded from 2nd amendment protections (the right to keep and bear arms does not apply to ICBM's, for example).

So far as I've seen, nobody's asking for such a ban - at least not here in the states. But some of us are pointing out that the filmmaker created what, in European standards would be a clear and flagrant example of obvious hate speech... and what's more the producers have stated they knew it would probably result in riots and violence, and that's why they went ahead with it.

it's not that the government needs to crack down. it's that the people who started this mess need to pay for their share of the responsibility in what happened.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #93)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:01 PM

185. It's a law restricting our GOVERNMENT. The entire GOVERNMENT.

A person charged with representing "The People" cannot espouse their personal beliefs while in the execution of said office. Whne they are not performing the duties of their office, they are free to speak their mind.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:31 AM

51. I agree, the film is tasteless, but

 

How does the insulting film justify the murder of an ambassador?

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Response to Biafran (Reply #51)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:18 AM

94. Nobody's said it's justified. Ever.

In fact the only people saying that... are people like you, who keep trying to accuse others of saying it.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:58 AM

184. What do you mean by "demand public employees have absolutely no right whatsoever to free speech"?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:23 AM

40. Hate speech that incites violence NOT protected. Try calling for harming the President, if you doubt

There are limits. But the fact is that you are conflating censorship (which the constitution protects free speech against governmental action in most cases) with any step that might be taken to eliminate hate-speech that reinforces bigotry and rises to the level of violent incitement. YouTube has every right to delete this and we have ever right to express our opinion that they need to do so. That is NOT censorship. That is asserting our sense of decency and OUR RIGHTS in a democratic society

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #40)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:28 AM

46. Make a similar film attacking Christianity and there would not be riots.

Sure, the Religious Right would throw a hissy fit, but that is it.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #46)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:31 AM

50. We have a Republican official calling for acid attacks on female DNC Senators today...

so, I would never be so absolute in your assumption.

just TODAY....

Jay Townsend, GOP Spokesman: 'Let's Hurl Some Acid At Those Female Democratic Senators'
"My question today... when is Tommy boy going to weigh in on all the Lilly Ledbetter hypocrites who claim to be fighting the War on Women? Let’s hurl some acid at those female democratic Senators who won’t abide the mandates they want to impose on the private sector."

Why do all these rethugs have such vivid violent imaginings? Haley Barbour wants a hot poker to Obama's butt. This guy wants to throw acid. Sick fucks. What nobody just wants to punch someone in the nose any more? They want to torture and maim.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/jay-townsend-nan-hayworth-acid-war-on-women_n_1560693.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=1923695,b=facebook

Taken from the following DU post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021323484

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #50)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:34 AM

56. This is different.

 

Calling for the hurt or murder of another is no free speech and is different to making film about a personal view that another might find offensive.

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Response to Biafran (Reply #56)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:04 AM

83. Question

Do you describe bigotry like antisemitism as merely being 'a personal view that another might find offensive'? Or is that just when it comes to Islamophobia?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #46)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:40 AM

62. The worst reaction I remember The Last Temptation of Christ getting

was people picketing outside movie theaters and people like Pat Robertson getting in a huff about its depiction of a very human Jesus. Which is ironic because the movie and the book both show how Jesus managed to overcome worldly temptations (including Satan's "last temptation" for him to come down from the cross to live a comfortable, married life as a family man into old age).

I have heard televangelist Jack "Predicting-the-End-of-the-World-for-a-Living" Van Impe say on more than one occasion that if Christians responded to offensive depictions of Jesus the way Muslims do to similar depictions of The Prophet people would think twice about doing it.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #46)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:09 AM

146. Please tell that to Dr. Tiller's family

Hate speech begets violence. Is it right? Of course not, but we have scores of murdered Americans in our history who were the victims of hate speech. You can sit there and condemn these actions, like President Obama and Secretary Clinton have, or you can perpetuate more hate and death, but we also must condemn those who incite violence.
American history has more incidents like this one than you can count. The only difference is the violence was by Americans against Americans. We must move on and LEARN SOMETHING!

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #40)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:18 AM

95. Also our OWN protests against a film like this say, "NOT IN OUR NAME"

Because to the people who rioted, what they see on our media etc... they probably think we are ALL a bunch of haters. The only way they'll know that isn't true is by US citizens and government officials calling this film a "hate film" and holding the creators accountable for their part in what happened, even if it was not murder in and of itself, it's called inciting to riot and it's against the law.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:04 AM

84. "Universal rights"

 

is a dangerous theological myth about social contracts.

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Response to tama (Reply #84)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:49 AM

159. Although I wouldn't label it as either necessarily religious nor dangerous, I do agree that

Although I wouldn't label it as either necessarily religious nor dangerous, I do agree that is little more than a social construct appearing no where but our own minds; and is as diaphanous, as vague, and as mutable as mankind itself.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:20 AM

173. Actually it is not a dangerous slope! It's understanding

The West understands freedom of speech, but only after a very long cultural evolution including a few horrific religious wars.

I don't care what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says, it does not translate on the ground, and that is not just the Middle East.

You are using a western value set here. And arguing that it is valid everywhere.

From the POV of the developing world, it has a name, cultural imperialism.

No, what you think is universal, on the ground it is not, and will not be for a while yet. You need to read a few books on this. Edward Said is a good choice to start, even if slightly dated. Black Athena is also a good one.

One choice here, since this is an act of war, is for the US to send an intervention force to try to impose our ideas...we know that does not work. The other choice is a far more measured response, including chastising that movie. No, not because it violates our standards, but the movie might qualify as hate speech...which I will remind you can be prosecuted when it leads to violence, even in the US. No, freedom of speech, like second Ammendment rights, are not absolute.

Heresy is a big thing right now among Muslims, like it was in the West five hundred years ago. Hell, even a hundred years ago it was still big, and some are trying hard to make it big again.

Now the President is taking a meassured response, and has already condemned what has happened, and the political also enters the scene. But you knew that.

I personally prefer the more measured response btw.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #173)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:44 PM

240. I stopped reading when you mentioned "Black Athena".

That's a crackpot book.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #240)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:18 PM

249. Your prerrogative to ignore how the rest of the world lives

In my mind you are espousing a version of cultural imperialism, one thatwe get with our mothers milk. Having grown up in a developing world country that saw the mouse as imperialism is actually a serios advantage here.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:37 PM

235. Frteeedom of speech is a universal human right AS WEE SEE IT. It is not international law. at all.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:07 AM

21. People do not have a right not to be offended in a free society thankyou.ive been saying this 4ever

people need to read it , learn it , live it. and that includes people in du

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:39 AM

152. we often cite Darwin's Law, yes?.

" People do not have a right not to be offended in a free society."

However, I do have a personal responsibility to not offend anyone merely for the sake of offending someone-- a responsibility I practice and maintain. I would imagine that's a responsibility we all would choose to accept, whether or not we hide behind the human construct of free speech or not.

And while that bit of bumper-sticker philosophy stating "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it" may be philosophically unassailable to many, it does NOT imply that "I'll also defend you from the consequences of your dumb-ass lack of common-sense and irresponsible behavior..."

Especially when common sense dictates that the consequences of that speech will not be targeted merely at the one who's idiotic enough to utter them, but will also include those who have absolutely no correlation at all to the ignorant person saying it in the first place.

I learned a long time ago that if I were to drive to the south side of the town I live in and begin yelling "wetbacks go home! Go back to Mexico!", that I would most likely be protected by the First Amendment in doing so, but I also know that there would be consequences-- and I wouldn't expect anyone else to defend me from those consequences-- we often cite Darwin's Law, yes?. I'd hazard that I would be little more than an example of that if the above were indeed my course of action.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:30 PM

203. We all have a right not to be murdered

Yet that right is often violated. We don't go out of our way to incur that violation of our rights, either.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:19 AM

96. Exactly.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:59 AM

141. Isn't censoring ourselves in response to irrational violence

 

exactly what they're after?

And if we cave how does that convince them not to do this sort of stuff again?

"Hey Muhammed, remember when we went nuts and killed a bunch of Americans and they totally did exactly what we wanted?"

yeah . . .

"Let's not do that again. It was far too successful and easy".

agreed.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:46 AM

156. Held to account for what?

What law did they break?

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Response to bighart (Reply #156)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:51 AM

161. Are you fluent in English? "Held to account" does not refer only to legal ramifications...

If, as it appears, English may not be your primary language, please disregard as I truly do not mean to offend you for your lack of understanding.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #161)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:54 AM

163. In what way would you "hold them to account" for practicing

free speech? If you want to call them names and insult them feel free, I am sure they won't care one bit.

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Response to bighart (Reply #163)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:56 AM

164. Denunciation is the first step. Not defend under the guise of a 'free speech' argument...

Sadly, some seem to be using that to allow their own previously-concealed bigotry to leak out from under the mask.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #164)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:05 AM

166. I have not seen the film in question so I have no point of reference for judgement on it.

However I find the people who made it to be fools of the first order but they have a RIGHT codified in the CONSTITUTION to say things that may offend others. Do I feel they should be free from consequences if they offend, HELL NO, if they were attacked because of it I would have no sympathy for them.
Blaming the actions of the violent reactionaries in Libya and Egypt on the people who made the film is the same as blaming a rape victim because they walk out on the street in a bikini.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #164)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:04 PM

186. It is possible to both denouce the message AND support free speech, at the same time.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #186)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:21 PM

193. Unless you mean to acuse those who are denouncing this ugly, bigoted, inciting filmaker of NOT

supporting free speech, I would suggest you be more measured with your comment. No one here condones the violence. No one here denies the critical importance of free speech, but neither do most believe in hiding behind free speech rights to induce/incite violence-- not to JUSTIFY hate speech.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #193)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:25 PM

197. Will you apply the same standard to Salman Rushdie? Or the Danish cartoonist?

Look, I'm just as pissed off here as you are. The makers of this film need to be held up to the light of day and lambasted for their hatred and intolerance, but they DID NOT kill anyone, nor did they TELL people to kill anyone.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #197)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:33 PM

206. Have you even bothered to see the promotional video? Give me a break. Hate DOES incite.

ONCE AGAIN, SLOWLY AND WITH EMPHASIS: NO ONE is condoning the violence by extremist factions of Islam. Again, slowly NO ONE IS CONDONING THE VIOLENCE

But giving a pass to those who knowingly incite violence is to condone that hatred.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #206)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:39 PM

210. It didn't incite me.

Our personal emotional reactions are irrelevant, what we do physically is.


Is there any part of that movie or trailer where people are explicitly TOLD to go out and hurt/kill others?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #210)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:58 PM

219. I would hope not. But, I can not deal with your defending hate speech and bigotry

So, I am done.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #219)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:01 PM

220. "I can not deal with your defending hate speech and bigotry, so I am done." You dropped this...

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #220)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:24 PM

224. And you have taken every opportunity afforded by a so-called "free speech" argument to

let your own defense of bigotry fly.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #224)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:29 PM

228. When your argument fails, resort to personal attacks.

You stay classy, now, ya hear?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:49 AM

6. In the same way that tea partiers will see these riots

by a few muslims and think it justifies another war against a muslim country.

No country has a monopoly on idiots or on evil people who know to manipulate the idiots.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:50 AM

10. So you missed the past 10 years of Middle East occupation?

This isn't a single, stand alone issue which created the volitility which ultimately errupted into violence.

This writing has been on the wall for a long, long time. It was only a matter of when, not if.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:55 AM

12. So you are saying Libyans and Egyptians are too stupid to see the difference...

...between the actions of the US government and the actions of an ISRAELI filmmaker?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:02 AM

18. this was a few people

 

you keep instigating a wrong analogy

WHY???

THAT IS BUSH/CHENEY LIKE and got us rah rah rah into Iraq


have you learned nothing?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:14 AM

32. Actually it was one guy, who fired a rocket

But hey, they're Muslims, so we're already keyed to dole out mass reprisals.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #32)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:32 AM

52. Do you seriously think that the Muslims who rioted saw the film?

I doubt it. They were incited to riot not by the film but by some Muslim fanatic who told them about the film and riled them up.

I had never heard of this film until the rioting occurred.

There are probably films that ridicule some of my own favorite, even sacred, beliefs. I don't riot over it.

The fault for the riots and the killing lies solely with the rioters and the leaders and immediate instigators of the riots.

We live in the 21st century.

I hate to think how the rioters about this film in Muslim countries ridicule those who do not believe in their religion.
I hate to think how the kinds of people who riot over this film in Muslim countries ridicule and hate Jewish people.

People of the ilk of the rioters exist everywhere -- even here. There is no excuse for killing someone over a film or because of their religious beliefs or their culture. No excuse whatsoever. And especially no excuse for inciting ignorant people to kill out of hatred in this way.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:57 AM

76. "No excuse at all"

While i'm inclined to share that viewpoint - I happen to agree actually, there's never a good reason for murder - It's a bit fucking hypocritical. Maybe not for you personally, but as a sentiment coming from any American.

We- and the governments we elect - have been hand waving and excusing countless murders for quite a long time now. Somehow, there's always an excuse. "Oh, thought he was one of the bad guys." "We had bad intel." "Bad apples." "We had to destroy the village to save it." Shit like that.

So to take this situation and thump our chests with a hearty "no excuse" might be factually correct, but it's pretty fucking ethically bankrupt.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #76)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:05 AM

167. Nearly everyone on DU agrees that there is no excuse for murder. Iraq was, for example,

simply murder on a massive scale and no better than killing our ambassador and guards in Syria -- and in scale much worse.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:51 PM

217. Well in Egypt choice sections of it were on major news channels

Which by the way are also picked by stations in Bengazi. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:08 AM

23. Just like we're too stupid to see the difference ...

...between the actions of Saddam Hussein's government and the actions of a few Saudi extremists on 9/11/01.

Well, ok, we're mostly not that stupid, but the Bush/Cheney administration managed to sell the linkage and kill a whole lot of people.

If a leader wants get people to create havoc, any excuse will do.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:41 PM

211. This might help to explain this to you

who makes movies in the US? The government? No.

Who is behind the movies in places like Egypt and Libya, and has been for decades? Private individuals? No.

See the difference. When all you watch and consume is controlled by the state, assuming this is the case all over the world is a logical step to take... just like you are assuming that movies are made around the world by private individuals.

Many of the states where you assume there is freedom of speech, all that is consumed media wise is controlled, tightly, by those who have the keys to media production. Yes, you may have a director directing, and actors acting and writers, writing... but all that is vetted by the state, or it's agents. And when it comes to news, tripple so.

So you think it's that illogical that a few people in Libya or Egypt assumed that this low budget production was at the very least vetted by Washington?

There is an old Navy saying that applies here, Assumptions are the beginning of any good sized clusterfuck.

You are assuming that free speech is universal, and that everywhere in the world private individuals produce good, bad, and crappy movies. They are assuming that everywhere in the world, good, bad and crappy movies are produced under the at the very least, quiet nod from government authorities.

Once you understand this, it makes a lot of sense why the Mouse is seen as a tool of American Imperialism. I mean Walk Disney worked for the state to promote the American way of life, and given that they did indeed produce some propaganda films during WW II, that reinforces that.

It is not that hard to understand, I swear.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:56 AM

14. this was not libya govt, but people reacting. so we can no more place the blame on libya govt than

the mob should place the blame on us gov

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:06 AM

20. And it is likely that this is a phoney incident ginned up by some intelligence agency...

 

Very possibly Mossad at the behest of Netabyahu.

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Response to rfranklin (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:14 AM

33. i never go into making it something i do not know.... but, yes. there are people that backed this

knowing the end game.

it is all disgusting and people died.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:05 AM

19. Its like the morons in the repubteapartylibertarians taking guns to town hall

 

and then Gabbie Giffords almost died and a judge did

Hate speech (from US hatelords Rush and Sean and KarlRove are directly responsible for hate action).

BTW-a report says the ambassador was sufficated in a car, NOT SHOT

Is there more than meets the eye to his killing?

enquiring minds want to know

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:07 AM

22. right. intentionally lighting a powder keg isn't right either. this is why

religion POISONS EVERYTHING

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:09 AM

25. That statement is true as seen from within our culture

but it was empirically demonstrated untrue for some people in Benghazi.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:11 AM

27. Cultural relativism can go fuck itself.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #27)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:12 AM

28. This.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #27)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:46 AM

70. LOL,

bluster does great things for some people's complexions.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #27)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:38 AM

121. YES IT CAN!

Absolutely!!!!!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #27)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:43 PM

214. Except that it does not and people work witihn the values

and ideals of it's own culture.

Cultural Relativism can go fuck itself is cultural imperialism at it's best. After all, the culture that should come on top is yours.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #214)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:35 PM

234. Either human rights are universal or else slavery and female genital mutilation is OK.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #234)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:17 PM

247. Logic?

 

Slavery and female genital mutilation can be not OK also without a certain UN document. There is no logical or causal dependency.

The UN document is a social contract between nation states. For example so called 4th world nations were not represented in drafting the document. Indigenous people would have produced relatively different document, if they had the responsibility for it.

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Response to tama (Reply #247)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:32 PM

251. Yup, more extensive response

Written from the POV of those 4th world economies.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #234)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:31 PM

250. That declaration would look very different if drafted by the Cherokee nation! For example

You are also conflating what even peope in these cultures see as a problem, slavery for example, or genital mutilation, with your very western definition of freedom of speech. I admit, it's quite funny actually.

What is even funnier is you bringing up slavery...read what pure and above reproach American Corporations are doing to Chinese workers in Samoa. (Yup, I managed to type that without laughing too hard)

Careful of calling for the grass blade in somebody else's eye while your vision is blocked by an old growth log.

But hey, so you know, the Universal Declaration espouses Western Values after a war when our side won...and it's been denounced by a few Southern Economies. After all, as a few developing world leaders leaders have rightly pointed out, freedom of speech, democracy and even education are not even worth a cup of warm of spit when people are starving to death.

Also the declaration violates some concepts close and dear to far more traditional societies, such as a sense of community.

I truly do not expect you to get it...I truly don't...cultural imperialism, unlike actual boots on the ground type, is far more insidious. That said, as globalization continues apace...I expect the declaration to become even less useful among nation states...I mean, predators will soon replace nation states at a practical level. So it s even more funny.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #250)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 04:57 PM

256. "Cultural relativism" or "localism"

 

is the ethical position of Golden and Silver Rule on communal and cultural level. It is also very important not to uphold "purity" of cultures but understand that all cultures mingle and mix and are "impure".



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Response to tama (Reply #256)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:08 PM

258. Exactly, but the teaching in American schools that cultural relativism is bunk

is usually followed by, if they only did what we do...

It is quite funny actually... I had a long discussion with a sociology instructor back in the day... which is kind of shocking as most sociology instructors tend to be center left. No, this guy was hard right. I started by bringing up the Mouse as a symbol of American penchant for imposing it's values in Mexico. Granted, that was a huge issue of discussion when I was growing up. So I was exposed to that... nothing funnier than Yankee go home, with a certain Mouse under it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #258)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:34 PM

259. I've heard

 

that American schools have become more and more patriotic/nationalistic/militaristic, if so, such curriculum is naturally opposed to ethics of cultural relativism.

I like reading David Graeber, cultural anthropologist and anarchist, and he pointed out somewhere that the democratic practice of Occupy etc. is adopted and relearned from indigenous people. I concur with that and also in my experience the peaceful global revolutionary process since Zapatistas is lead by indigenous traditions and ethics.

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Response to tama (Reply #259)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:53 PM

262. All empires before they die do that

and the US is an empire in decline and in denial.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:12 AM

30. Why did Americans think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11?

Oh, oops, I stepped into the DU Outrage Hour of Glower. I'll come back when one American doesn't outweigh several thundred thousand "others"

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:15 AM

34. Propanganda. Richard Engel just reported that people in the Middle East were told that...

...that this was a big film that would be broadcast throughout the U.S. - they were demanding that the U.S. make laws against it.

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Response to polichick (Reply #34)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:36 AM

58. And the truth is that the film will be ignored by most. It isn't the sort of thing that would

interest Americans at all. How sad.

In my experience, most Americans have no interest whatsoever in the Muslim religion. Am I wrong about this?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #58)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:39 AM

61. You have to ask who was behind the big lie that it was a major film...

I don't think it's coincidence that this is happening at the same time that Netanyahu (according to Lawrence O'Donnell this morning) is trying to influence our election. Netanyahu and Rmoney are personal friends who once worked together.

Let's look at who is behind the propaganda.

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Response to polichick (Reply #61)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:07 AM

169. And then there were the revelations in the New York Times about the memos prior to 9/11.

This story seems to have completely overshadowed that story about Bush and 9/11. To me that is the biggest story right now.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:16 AM

35. one can NOT yell fire in a theatre or incite a riot

 

John Lennon said it best

Imagine no religon it isn't hard to do
nothing to kill or die for

....
and the world will live as one

btw-inciting a riot (which the filmmaker or whomever is financing him or the people who want another war) is a CRIME in America and the inciter of a riot should be punished under US Criminal law (aka the guy who made the film)

FREEDOM OF SPEECH does NOT mean you can yell FIRE in a theatre

all it takes is a spark and the inciter of the riot gets his wish

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:33 AM

53. In a reasonable society this would not incite a riot.

Some people would laugh at it's stupidity, others would rationally rebut this bigot's claims.

Do you think the Danish cartoonist who made those Mohammed cartoon s should have been censored because it MIGHT offend someone?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #53)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:40 AM

65. The film maker allegedly wanted this outcome

 

at the same time the war mongers want Israel and the US to bomb Iran and everywhere else

put 2 and 2 together

This is NOT an innocent event
This (appears) to be a manipulated event to achieve the effect it has started to get (now we won't know how much worse it will get, once it starts, it is like a wildfire that cannot be stopped).

Are we looking at WW3?

WW1 started over a small event, didn't it?

Fox is surely jumped over this quickly (as if they had advance notice)

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #65)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:55 AM

75. Doesn't matter what outcome he wanted

The reaction of rational people is not to go out and murder innocent people because some other person on the planet said something you don't like.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #75)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:08 AM

87. so you agree we apologize and don't start bombing them, right?

 

that's what I would do.

defuse the spark before it ignites.

btw, when a mob scene happens (much like the anarchist protesters at USA events),
soimething always happens because a mob cannot be said to be rational.

(look how OWS in NYC blocked traffic in rush hour, and almost creating a riot, didn't make for good will did it?)

those unexpected consequences

Bibi of course wants bombing to commence yesterday

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #87)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:20 AM

98. No we do not apologize and no we don't bomb them

In our country we have freedom of speech and what some guy in fl who no one gives a shit about does not justify murder and does not justify an apology.

We should be insisting that those who committed the crime, planned the crime are brought to justice and if they are not we should pull every person and cent from Libya.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #98)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:23 AM

100. and apology like a hug is good

 

and goes a long way to diffusing and costs nothing

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #100)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:31 AM

112. In this case our country has not done anything to apologize for

It would be great if the guy in FL said he was sorry for being an asshole and for doing so many assholish things. But he is a religious nut and that will never happen.

We have freedom of speech in this country. Our forefathers fought and died for this right. It is a founding principal of our democracy.

People who want to murder in the name of god will always find a way to murder in the name of god.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #112)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:42 AM

126. an apology never hurt anyone and its free

 

it says we are bigger than Bibi and the wingnuts
I don't buy the argument it makes us look small or weak

might be time for a learning moment lesson from President Obama with some top Muslim dignataries
especially as the UN will be in session and it would be a good time for some words of peace

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #53)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:29 AM

109. Are you saying the USA is a reasonable society?

At this point in time I would beg to differ.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:40 AM

64. Have you seen the movie?

If not, how can you know that it incites people to riot?

And I'm pretty sure that whoever rioted or shot a rocket or whatever happened did not see this film either.

People have rioted over their own imaginations. The film may be horrible. It may or may not be distributed much or at all in the US. This is about people in Egypt and Libya getting carried away by their imaginations and their hatred for others. It's very sad that we have not come further than this.

I'd have to know more about the film and the intention of the person who made it to have any idea whether it is really objectionable enough to incite a riot. Just because people say they rioted over it doesn't mean that they have any idea as to what the film is really like. And anyway -- why riot over a film? This is just a riot motivated by the hate of the rioters.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:54 AM

74. The film maker did not murder anyone

Religious extremists murdered innocent people.

We have freedom of speech in this country, especially including speech we don't like.

I would wonder, if some guy in a foreign country said something I hate with every fiber of my being, however justified or fucked up those feelings are, would I have a right to walk into their embassy and murder citizens of that country?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:50 AM

160. Of course you can "yell fire" in a theatre.

What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that if a fire breaks out in a theatre, nobody can say anything about it?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:17 AM

36. I killed four people myself after I saw Leonard Part 6.



&feature=related

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Response to Ian David (Reply #36)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:24 AM

41. I LOL'd.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:20 AM

38. This is more an issue of Fox-like manipulation of the masses...

The Egyptian media whipped people into a frenzy by reporting that this was a huge blockbuster movie, a la "Harry Potter" or "Twilight", that was going to be seen (eagerly and happily) by every American on 9/11. This fiasco is a media creation.

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Response to MANative (Reply #38)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:09 AM

88. Now there will be a whole lot of people who are going to see it to figure out what this is about.

 

You don't think?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:20 AM

39. no, it's not. But there is such a thing as recognizing the predictable consequences of one's actions

If one of us white folk decided to walk into an African-American bar in an African-American neighborhood - during a period of time in which a great deal of racial strife was under way and if one of us white folk decided to blurt out something like, "Listen hear you dirty, fucking, nxxxers I think you are nothing but lazy, worthless pedophile scum" - then we should not be too surprised if we discovered that we had provoked a violent reaction. Does our expression of our first amendments rights to freedom of speech justify a violent response?

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #39)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:28 AM

47. +1000 nt

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #39)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:57 AM

79. We all hear speech we don't like

The rational reaction is not to go out and murder the guy down the street.

Free speech is not bad. Religious extremism is bad.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:24 AM

42. Apparently there was a rumor spread that the movie

was being shown on national TV as a 9/11 special,that's what someone on CNN said.I haven't heard anyone say that this is an excuse to kill.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:30 AM

49. What if it isn't about the movie?

It could be more about the US taking random potshots at the country and killing people since 1983. An insult to your religion might remind you about that.

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Response to eridani (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:25 AM

103. Yep - this didn't happen in a vacuum. Much like the Rodney King riots were not about Rodney

but a much larger, ongoing issue.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:33 AM

54. When you toss a can of gasoline into a bed of hot coals

The guy throwing the gasoline has some culpability for the fire.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:58 AM

81. Should americans give up their right to free speech?

Free speech is not bad. Religious extremists who murder people in the name of god are bad.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #81)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:13 AM

90. Yelling fire in a crowded theatre will get you in trouble

because if you do something that you KNOW will create problems, yes, you are culpable for your part in it.

I am in no way saying that what the religious extremists are doing is justified, but hate speech that you KNOW will cause violence is wrong.

There is a BIG difference between criticizing the person throwing the gasoline and saying free speech should be eliminated.

We, as a society have indeed acknowledged the harm that slander and hate speech do.

I am no more denouncing free speech than you are advocating hate speech.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #90)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:15 AM

92. So which part of your freedom of speech are you willing to give up?

We know there are insane religious zealots in this country who have also murdered in the name of god. Should we be quiet as to not upset those types also?

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #81)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:38 PM

237. hateful speech IS bad.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #237)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:33 PM

248. It is bad- it is not illegal

Do you want someone else judging what you have a right to say? Think about it. People who might not agree with your views, might someday decide what you want to say is illegal.

This film would have faded into the whole of absurdity, seen by a handful of people, if not for the actions of religions extremists on both sides.

There are many things that people in our country and other countries say that piss me off. In fact, my religion is demonized daily by a very large number of folks and indeed in hollywood. But those folks have a right to their ignorance and my recourse is to try and educate them. The correct response is never "go kill a diplomat" or "go blow up a building".

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:32 AM

114. I don't know that you would have a fire..pretty much need an open flame for gasoline to ignite

I'll see if I can find a youtube video LOL

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:33 AM

55. It's not about religion or the movie. It's about INCITING A RIOT on purpose.

There are laws against people purposefully stirring stuff up with the intent to cause violent reactions. It's called "inciting to riot" and most civilized countries will prosecute that behavior.

It was wrong when Palin "targeted" Gabby Giffords and said "Don't retreat, reload."

It's wrong when Rush et al are talking about just going out and killing so and so because it's a mis-use of a powerful position over an audience.

It's wrong when someone makes a movie whose sole purpose is to cause anger and unrest, particularly during a time of war.

OF COURSE, it's MORE WRONG to be the one doing the killing, that was still a choice. But those people are Libya's issue to deal with, not ours. WE still have to be responsible for our part in this.

However, the mob boss who orders a hit is still responsible for the kill and someone who purposely creates a film during a time of war whose purpose is to enrage people who the US is trying to deal with diplomatically is in the very least STUPIDLY negligent and at the worst treason.


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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #55)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:41 AM

66. Those who purposely incited should have been arrested after the last...

...abortion doctor killing and the shooting of the Senator.

Our DOJ let's them all walk - including war criminals.

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Response to polichick (Reply #66)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:14 AM

91. YES. It's been a known deterrant for the misuse of freedom of speech.

We have a lot of freedom, but we also have responsibilities that curtail our own rights when they impede on others rights - especially someone's right to not be targeted and murdered.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:37 AM

59. Because...

a lot of nations have government controlled entertainment.

and the people in Libya and Egypt who are rioting aren't clued in to the fact that, aside from various political propaganda, most of our "entertainment" is a private affair funded by private interests.

So as usual, ignorance it the culprit.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:43 AM

68. I tend not to take much stock in the reasons that the MSM gives for these things

They claimed last year that the whole Arab Spring was due to FaceBook.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:53 AM

72. Obviously it is, because that's what happens.

 

Just a sad and horrible fact of world. As are football team riots etc. Symbols and wars about symbols.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:54 AM

73. Terry Jones Dove World Outreach Center, Gainesville FL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dove_World_Outreach_Center

The "Burn the Koran" evangelical pastor was involved in making the movie...

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:57 AM

77. Yes, but it was a completely predictable outcome.

The makers and distributors of this film know this and, I suspect, were actually counting on it. That an American was killed is only a bonus for them.

So yeah, there's no excuse for the riot, but neither is there an excuse for inciting it.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:57 AM

80. the people who riot & caused death

 

should have been shot on site. No movie is a excuse to kill other innocent people that had nothing to do with the movie or even if they did.

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Response to BigD_95 (Reply #80)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:24 AM

102. No one is making excuses

The guy that worked this movie has an agenda to incite violence and anger in Muslims. I think that the violence would not have happened if this person had not deliberately made this movie to add gasoline to a bed of hot coals.

Why the coals were hot is another issue - but there is indeed some blame for the hate speech.

This was intentional - and this was the desired effect. I would like to see the makers of this movie sued into oblivion for their efforts to incite this.







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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:05 AM

85. I completely agree.

What is absolutely indefensible is the cynical use of this film by extremists on both sides to inflame the passions of religious fanatics. This includes that pastor in Florida and the Mullahs in Libya and Egypt.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:20 AM

99. As I understand it they, the mob, was lied to by their

leaders (clerics) about what the film was since virtually none of them saw it. I think it has been reported that only the cleric rallying them all saw anything about it and then spouted off all this crap about it including crap about how Americans were going to show it like it was some sort of blockbuster or forced media thing in their country.

You are of course correct not liking an offensive movie is not an excuse to riot and kill people.

Having said that neither is winning or losing a sports game but hell we do that shit right here in good old America though I don't think anyone's been killed in them of late, through sheer luck, overseas that's a different story.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:26 AM

104. because that is what mobs do. Also, who are "these folks". Is it the entire populous? I doubt it,

however, I think to ignore history, and our recent developments in those countries whose influence has not always been kind to those living there may have had some effect

Things do not happen in a vacuum

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:27 AM

106. The audacity of some people to...

... hold a world view you don't agree with, eh buddy?


The fucking NERVE of 'em.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #106)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:55 AM

183. What is their worldview?

 

To riot and kill because they don't like something on video?

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Response to Alduin (Reply #183)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:17 PM

192. As if...

... the "video" DESIGNED to inflame hatred and violence happened in a vacuum.

Nice try, but no cigar.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:30 AM

111. I can agree with you but

This kind of information has led to wars....such as WWI. think of the incident that started that.


I think the religious leaders in Egypt and Libya are responsible for the murders but also think the maker of the movie responsible, as he made it for pure political reasons and called Islam "Cancer". The timing of putting the movie out is suspect and the promoter of the movie has already been involved in burning the Koran and inciting violence a few years ago.


This is like a spider web.

Interesting as Yahoo of Israel wants war with Iran yet his president Peres does not.

Flip a coin.....are going to war..Is the USA going to war over this?

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #111)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:43 AM

129. Yes

We should not act in violence because of ignorant violance. The makers of the movie are hateful and ignorant as well. All violence should be condemned.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:31 AM

113. Amazing what a short memory we have

especially after Sarah Palin's map with crosshairs on it and message to her Teapublican followers, "Don't retreat, instead - Reload!" Gabby Giffords prophetic words followed, "We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list. But the thing is the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. People do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action."

We can sit here all high and mighty in "the land of the free and home of the brave" and spout platitudes about how free speech is a universal human right all day long. Sarah Palin was doing nothing more than exercising her right to free speech, yet how many of you were outraged when the consequences of Palin's words rang out in Tuscon.

Reality check: Words have consequences.

Reality check: Freedom of speech is not world wide. Not everyone holds our values. It's jingoistic to expect that they would.

The only reason this film received the notoriety it did was because it was promoted by Pastor Terry Jones whose own free speech act of burning a Quran incited a riot that resulted in the death of 12 people in Afghanistan. So while you condemn Sarah Palin for her free speech inciting violence, you defend a scumbag like Terry Jones for his free speech that everyone knew ahead of time would have violent and potentially lethal consequences for Americans abroad? How's that double standard working out for you there?

We live in a country where we enjoy the right to free speech, but that does not let us off the hook for being responsible for our speech acts. It's time we get out of our comfy little sandbox, grow up, and start taking responsibility for what we put out there. The world is what it is, not as we would have it. And words do have consequences - sometimes deadly ones.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:39 AM

122. While I agree with what you say...

we live in a nation with laws that, for the most part, people respect.

And contrary to much of what the right wing likes to spew on a daily basis, we do have a measurable level of the separation of church and state. (although it does seem as if it's eroding)

That said, let's see what is at play here.

Two nations Libya and Egypt have just experienced to massive upheavals in their respective nations.

And after most major national upheavals, lots of rumors swirl, lots of opportunists in the form of both political and religious try to fill the vacuum of fear with their own brand of fear and lastly, most of the people who had been displaced or thrown out of work are desperate.

So when you have a nation where the majority of the younger population is out of work, needing enough food, wanting clean water, and would like to be able to return to school but are unable to; what happens? Lots of unrest.

But then you also have various outside influences who see the opportunity to spread their bullshit to a desperate citizens. Citizens who want to vent misplaced anger, frustration and stress.

Given enough propaganda, enough agitating and enough influence, you invite the masses to fulfill a certain agenda.

In steps some right wing moron. Terry Jones and his half wit will partner film maker to purposely make an inflammatory film. We live in a universe apart from the people of Libya and Egypt and find it hard to believe that anyone would riot over any film, especially a poorly made pile of crap such as this one, desperate people who need to vent and have no other way to react, riot.

The US has always been the easy target for 3rd world nations whose. Granted, the US doesn't have the greatest record in history when dealing with 3rd world nations especially in the area of human rights, but it doesn't help us in the least, especially as of late, to have right wing morons pouring gas on a smoldering coals.

It is horrible that people have lost their lives in this situation, it is deplorable that the people of these two countries have been used as puppets by their religious extremists, but at the same time, it's disgusting that someone in this nation employs terrorist by proxy to do their dirty work as a means to an end.

And that end? To further divide the people of the world into their screwed up world view of those who are white and believe in jesus and those that don't.

As sad as it is that these people in the middle east are so desperate that they fall for the words of extremists within their own midst, it is equally sad that there are people in this nation whose sole purpose is to spread hate a lies under the guise of religion.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #122)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:01 PM

243. employs terrorist by proxy to do their dirty work as a means to an end

Just wanted to say that to me, this is the heart of the matter and thank you for your post.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:46 AM

130. You think they care if you think there's an excuse?

 

A billion Muslims don't care if we think this is an excuse for that kind of reaction. An offensive movie was made in order to cause offense, it is just one in a line of intentionally offensive acts that have had this kind of reaction. And it's obvious that the guy sitting on the United States, making millions of dollars with which he made his movie would cause a violent anti-American reaction.

I want to know what his political and business ties are, here and in Israel. He did this to try to have an effect on American politics. I'm tired of Israeli manipulation of American politics. Time to cut them off unless this kind of crap stops.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:46 AM

131. Just catching up with all this between meetings this morning.

A quick thought that came to mind (thinking about Carter/Reagan),
I would be interested in knowing who funded his movie? Addleson?

Probably too tin-foil hattish, but I haven't had my coffee yet.

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Response to woodsprite (Reply #131)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:39 PM

238. Some Neo-Con, I would guess.

The timing is very suspicious.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:48 AM

133. Not an excuse

but it sure as hell doesn't help our military and diplomatic personnel by so blatantly and needlessly inflaming people in that region.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:49 AM

134. This is about power relationships -- not hurt feelings

That's the point I see almost everyone missing. It's a standard factor in human societies that the dominant group gets to lord it over the members of subordinate groups -- insult their manhood, call their women whores, trash their property -- as a way of reinforcing the power disparity between them.

If you're a well-educated, white American, you don't tend to be in the receiving end of that sort of shit. But anybody who has been in the inferior position knows what it's like.

And the sorry truth is that there's no way out of it except rising up and kicking ass. Putting a scare into the people who have been rubbing your noses in the mud. Making it clear you're not going to take it.

This is why poor people riot. This is why Middle Eastern countries want nukes.

The film causing all this ruckus is not an example of free speech. It's not about insulting someone who has equal power to insult you back. It's the equivalent of Gitmo guards throwing Korans in the toilet as a form of psychological manipulation. It's saying "we can spit on everything you hold dear and you can't do a thing about it."

And though we oh-so-superior members of the ruling class may get the vapors over it, the only effective answer to that kind of provocation has always been "Oh yeah? Eat lead, muthafucka."

Because it's all about power -- and particularly the power to protect yourself and yours.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:56 AM

138. Your OP is so offensive;

I condemn anyone who would post such drivel, ESPECIALLY ON A PROGRESSIVE SITE SUCH AS THIS.

Of course I am nauseated at your post and NOT YOU.


Did I miss any?

38 LIKES, And this is what has happened to DU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #138)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:05 AM

145. What, pray tell, is so offensive about it?

It's not like the U.S. authorized or subsidized the making of this low-grade B-movie that has all these fanatics up-in-arms over there.

Why should the U.S. government he held responsible every time some whack-a-doodle goes off on a rant?

Do we need "thought police" to stop people from speaking their mind?

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #138)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:53 AM

181. How is the OP offensive?

 

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #138)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:37 PM

236. So you think the Danish cartoonist who made those Mohammed cartoons...

...deserved death threats? In a free society people do not have a right not to be offended.

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #138)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 06:43 AM

273. Believe it or not

there are DUers who remain in support of the free speech granted to Americans. Being progressive doesn't have to mean that one is only in favor of speech that one agrees with.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:57 AM

140. My whole point has been the creator needs to answer for it instead of hide...

He needs to be front and center on TV,saying "Yes, I made this film, and I did it because of ________ reasons..."

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:59 AM

142. Is there an excuse for deliberately provoking dangerous fanatics?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:02 AM

144. It is no excuse, however when you KNOW THIS WILL HAPPEN WHY DO IT?

Why put out a movie or burn Quran's when you know without a shadow of a doubt people will pay for it in the Middle East with their lives? That's the bottom line. Why go into a Siekh temple and gun down as many as you can? All in the name of religion. Terry Jones put this out there all in the name of his religion. Are the evangelicals standing up and saying what Terry Jones did is wrong? To equate someone else's religious leader as a goat? No we won't hear any evangelical leaders say what Jones did was wrong.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:17 AM

148. I don't know what motivates them

maybe some journalist will be brave enough to look into their motivations.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:35 AM

150. my understanding is

that people were protesting when a terrorist group took it upon themselves to attack the embassy. this is based on listening to BBC News on NPR this morning on my way to work.

i do not believe that the actions of this group are representative of the people of Libya.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #150)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:48 AM

158. Yeah, these Islamist fanatics weren't even a major part of the Arab Spring.

I do wish the Libyan government had responded more quickly and forcefully though to prevent the violence that ensued.

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Response to LAGC (Reply #158)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:17 AM

172. of course.

i just don't a WAR to come of this!

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Response to barbtries (Reply #172)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:49 AM

178. Oh it won't -- I have faith in Obama to offer a measured response.

Of course, if Rmoney somehow wins, all bets are off.

The next time something like this happens could be used as an excuse for the neo-cons to drag us into another quagmire over there...

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Response to LAGC (Reply #178)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:26 PM

198. not "could" be

"would" be. just can't happen.

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Response to LAGC (Reply #158)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:43 PM

213. WTF?!?!?

Of course they were part of Arab Spring!!!!! Arab Spring began in Libya while it was still happening in Egypt. It's just that Qaddafi managed to control the communications enough to keep word from getting out. As a result the first real word the rest of the world heard was when the Egyptian soldiers on the Egyptian/Libyan border woke up one morning to find their Libyan counterparts gone.

You wish the Libyan government had forcefully prevented the violence that ensued? I am going to assume that you're simply uninformed. The only other conclusion to be made with a statement like that is that you're a troll.

Who the fuck do you think was committing the violence in the first place? Qaddafi was a psychopathic tyrant who was slaughtering his own people. People were being executed for no reason or for some delusional reason only in Quaddafi's head. Many bodies weren't even buried, but strewn along the roadsides as a warning to others and to deliberately create terror among the people. He was brutal, violent, and raped hundreds of women who he bought or just ordered brought to him.

Next time check your facts and stop watching Fox News!

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Response to citizen blues (Reply #213)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:51 PM

216. Wow, whoa, easy there tiger!!

I was referring to the NEW Libyan government, THEY should have done more to stop YESTERDAY'S violence.

I wasn't defending the Qaddafi regime in any way. For the record, I'm glad he is gone, I supported the rebels.

Wow, guess I need to explain myself more carefully next time... geesh.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:41 AM

153. Because maybe they don't have the same access to information that we do.(nt)

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:42 AM

154. Because that's what they were told


The other answer is that they are used to a society in which media products only originate from the government, or with government approval.

Therefore, they assume that all media products from other countries are made with the approval or authorization of the government.

They really can't see it any other way, not having had experience with freedom of speech and its consequences.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #154)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:42 PM

239. Interesting point.

Which goes to show that the solution is MORE free speech, so these people knew this was just one idiot filmmaker.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #239)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:57 PM

241. In the long run, yes


At the present moment, it is like saying to the color-blind "WTF? Can't you tell the difference between red and green!"

Uh, no, they can't.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:47 AM

157. Maybe they saw Michelle Bachmann on one of her rants about Muslim conspiracies?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/michele-bachmann-muslims_n_1690889.html

I mean, if one was to watch them, you might think that our government has members that are Islamophobic...

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:43 AM

177. Uh, maybe because the films says certain kinds do violence & then certain kinds do violence . . . ?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:53 AM

180. K&R

 

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:54 AM

182. agreed. religious crazies who murder people

because another religious nut said something mean are responsible for their own fucking actions

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Response to rollin74 (Reply #182)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:10 PM

189. . . . on cue, perhaps. nt

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:09 PM

188. Why do folks in the USA think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? nt

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:12 PM

190. There are bloody hands on BOTH SIDES. Not just one. (nt)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #190)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:35 PM

207. Make that ALL sides: recall why bin Laden went to Afghanistan & why, for decades, the U.S.

"couldn't" bring itself to trust Yasir Arafat and why Yasir Arafat couldn't bring itself to trust the U.S.

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Response to patrice (Reply #207)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:56 PM

218. True - I'm addressing the filmmakers and the rioters in this thread

But many other factors led to the tinderbox conditions that preceded the fire.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #218)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:06 PM

221. I'm suggesting that the filmmakers & the rioters could be in collusion. How was the film financed?

Isn't it kind of odd that the film's insult to Islam was, TTE, "They are fundamentally violent killers" and then, the Muslim world responds with violence and killing?

Looks kind of like a double- or triple- cross to some of us, but then . . . also, maybe not.

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Response to patrice (Reply #221)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:29 PM

226. I'm thinking that Terry Jones wouldn't involve himself with any Muslims

at any level, on any project.

But the world has surprised me more than once.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #226)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:33 PM

232. Maybe not he, but who would benefit from making Muslims or Islam look bad?

. . . and I'm really sorry to say that you have to consider other Muslims in your guesses about the answer to that question.

Remember, this involves Egypt too, the apple of PNAC -ian eyes!

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #190)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:37 PM

208. i.e. there're more than 2 sides & at least some of those sides change back-and-forth with others. nt

Last edited Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:44 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:13 PM

191. To answer your question: Because they see no difference between the US Government and Israel

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:25 PM

196. No one said it is

No, all people have said is when you KNOW people are sensitive, there's no point in provoking them. We know there are Muslims who get upset at friggin' cartoons. There's no excuse for provoking them like that either.

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Response to treestar (Reply #196)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:37 PM

209. So if I draw satirical cartoons

and wanted to do one showing a range of the founders of various religions in a satirical way that depicts my view of them and there religion I should leave out a reference to Islam because it might really anger some?
Depict Jesus, Buddah, the Dali Lama, the Great Spirit, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other deity or the representative there of, just not Islam, Allah, or Muhammad because Muslims are sensitive?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:29 PM

201. Don't forget...

"Why do these folks in Libya and Egypt think the US government has anything to do with an Israeli guy's offensive low-budget film?"

You have a largely under/uneducated society...and most of the education, is going to be religiously given/driven.

When you brainwash the masses...and keep them stupid and then only feed them propoganda...well...you see it today.

Another reason to fight like HELL, here in America for our freedom from political dictators and religious dictators.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:32 PM

204. Because state-sponsored media is all they know


Why do you expect them to operate within the assumptions of a free-press, free-speech framework.

They do not have anything in their education or experience to understand media which is NOT state sponsored or approved.

Why the can't foreigners understand English? That's what I want to know.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:30 PM

230. The film had nothing to do with it.

The attack was planned in advance according to U.S. State Dept. sources. The attackers created a "protest" then used that to attack the embassy personnel. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/12/u-s-ambassador-to-libya-3-others-killed-in-rocket-attack-witness-says/

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:34 PM

233. why? for thousands of reasons, historical and actual.

soldiers peeing on dead bodies?
American soldiers in the middle east?
the belief that America is the enemy of Islam?
the idea of burning the koran/
all the racism that exists against Muslims here, since 9/11?
the drones in Pakistan?
because in ,many cases, the only aid the people ever see is from right wing Islamic groups?

the list is endless.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:58 PM

242. libya was not a reaction to the movie, it was a deliberate strike, not reactionary. Egypt was.

both the Jewish and Muslim religions strum the emotions, both are reactionary. We do not belong in these countries, not even an embassy and our intrusion in just about every country in the world will always anger those who resist change in those countries. We are targets in hostile countries. Israel will easily draw us into conflicts because they are haters. I dont want the US to ally with haters. we have enough of those in our country

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 02:02 PM

244. There is an obvious clear difference between us the them.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 04:46 PM

255. Inciting violence in such a volatile part of the world

unfortunately is not that hard. Who ever made this film knows exactly what they are doing, they are despicable.

Look at what Fox news does to people in this country, there are always people who are vulnerable to propaganda. I wonder if someone made money doing this.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:53 PM

261. Because IT MADE MY INVISIBLE FRIEND IN THE SKY MAD!

People want to talk about "root causes", there is your root cause.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 06:56 PM

263. Why?

Because there are "low information" people everywhere..here, there and all over the place....they have their "radical clerics" stirring up trouble and we have our right wing radio/tv doing the same

ignorant, scared people will believe propaganda, and many only need a little push to act on those fears..

you do not see the big shots in terrorist organizations blowing themselves up..they get others to do it for them..

the anti abortion zealots did not actually kill those doctors, but their rhetoric surely convinced someone else to do it..

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 07:16 PM

264. True, and calling another culture's prophet a child molester

is not an "American value" that anyone needs to defend. Freedom of speech comes with the right of the listeners to call you an a**hole, any and even all of them. That would be their freedom of speech to respond.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:23 PM

265. He is a Christian, and the trailor starts with a woman opening her legs.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:25 PM

266. who is saying it is?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:53 PM

267. If folks can't deal with freedom of speech or believe they have the right not to be offended

under pain of death then we should cut all ties, ban travel to such locations, and leave them to their own. If their offense leaves their borders then extreme reaction should be expected.

What we have is gap we cannot bridge without surrendering our own freedoms, maybe we can revisit this in a few hundred years but for now, divorce is what is needed. We simply shouldn't have a soul in harm's way. No industry, no embassies, no tourism, no nothing.

If there was no oil in the region, this would be the general rule anyway. We need to get off oil and they can deal without petro dollars.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 01:33 AM

269. What if your team wins a Championship?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 01:59 AM

270. We roundly condemn them, while wearing comfortable shoes.

WTF indeed.

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