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msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:32 AM Sep 2012

The Civil Rights Plank of the Democratic Party ('Cause some people missed it!!)

Protecting Rights and Freedoms

Civil Rights. We believe in an America where everybody gets a fair shot and everybody plays by the same set of rules. At the core of the Democratic Party is the principle that no one should face discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, language, religion, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability status. Democrats support our civil rights statutes and we have stepped up enforcement of laws that prohibit discrimination in the workplace and other settings. We are committed to protecting all communities from violence. We are committed to ending racial, ethnic, and religious profiling and requiring federal, state, and local enforcement agencies to take steps to eliminate the practice, and we continue to support enforcement of Title VI. We are committed to equal opportunity for all Americans and to making sure that every American is treated equally under the law.


We are committed to ensuring full equality for women: we reaffirm our support for the Equal Rights Amendment, recommit to enforcing Title IX, support the Paycheck Fairness Act, and will urge ratification of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. We know that putting America back to work is Job One, and we are committed to ensuring that Americans do not face employment discrimination. We support the Employment Non- Discrimination Act because people should not be fired based on their sexual orientation or gender identity.

President Obama and the Democratic Party are committed to ensuring all Americans are treated fairly. This administration hosted the first-ever White House Conference on Bullying Prevention and we must continue our work to prevent vicious bullying of young people and support LGBT youth. The President's record, from ending "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in full cooperation with our military leadership, to passing the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, to ensuring same-sex couples can visit each other in the hospital, reflects Democrats' belief that all Americans deserve the same chance to pursue happiness, earn a living, be safe in their communities, serve their country, and take care of the ones they love. The Administration has said that the word ‘family' in immigration includes LGBT relationships in order to protect bi-national families threatened with deportation.

Women. President Obama—the son of a single mother and the father of two daughters—understands that women aren't a special interest group. They are more than half of this country, and issues that affect women also affect families. That is why the first bill he signed into law was the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, which helps women fight back when they are paid less than men, and why we continue to fight to overcome Republican opposition and pass the Paycheck Fairness Act to help stop gender discrimination in pay before it starts. And that is why the Justice Department and Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, led by President Obama's appointees, have investigated and prosecuted numerous violations of the nation's civil rights laws, and obtained more than $140 million in relief for victims of gender discrimination. We Democrats will continue to support efforts to ensure that workers can combat gender discrimination in the workplace and to protect women against pregnancy discrimination. And that's why we support passing the Healthy Families Act, broadening the Family and Medical Leave Act, and partnering with states to move toward paid leave.

We understand that economic issues are women's issues, and the challenges of supporting and raising a family are often primarily a woman's responsibility. That's why putting Americans back to work is Job One. That's why the Affordable Care Act especially helps women by guaranteeing they and their families won't become uninsured when they lose their jobs. That's why this administration strengthened Medicare and Medicaid for millions of women and families. And that's why the Affordable Care Act is ending health insurance discrimination against women, and provides women with free access to preventive care, including prenatal screenings, mammograms, cervical cancer screening, breast-feeding supports, and contraception.

We understand that women's rights are civil rights. That's why we reaffirm our support for the ERA, recommit to enforcing Title IX, and will urge ratification of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. That's why we are committed to ending violence against women, why Vice President Joe Biden originally wrote and championed the Violence Against Women Act during his time in the Senate, and why we support reauthorizing and strengthening it now.

The President and the Democratic Party believe that women have a right to control their reproductive choices. Democrats support access to affordable family planning services, and President Obama and Democrats will continue to stand up to Republican efforts to defund Planned Parenthood health centers. The Affordable Care Act ensures that women have access to contraception in their health insurance plans, and the President has respected the principle of religious liberty. Democrats support evidence-based and age-appropriate sex education.

Protecting A Woman's Right to Choose. The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. Abortion is an intensely personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the way. We also recognize that health care and education help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions. We strongly and unequivocally support a woman's decision to have a child by providing affordable health care and ensuring the availability of and access to programs that help women during pregnancy and after the birth of a child, including caring adoption programs.

Voting Rights. We believe the right to vote and to have your vote counted is an essential American freedom, and we oppose laws that place unnecessary restrictions on those seeking to exercise that freedom. Democrats have a proud history of standing up for the right to vote. During the Obama administration, the Justice Department has initiated careful, thorough, and independent reviews of proposed voting changes, and it has prevented states from implementing voter identification laws that would be harmful to minority voters. Democrats know that voter identification laws can disproportionately burden young voters, people of color, low-income families, people with disabilities, and the elderly, and we refuse to allow the use of political pretexts to disenfranchise American citizens.

District of Columbia. Every citizen of the United States is entitled to equal citizenship rights, including the 638,000 residents of the nation's capital who pay federal taxes without representation. The American citizens who live in Washington, D.C., like the citizens of the 50 states, should have full and equal congressional rights and the right to have the laws and budget of their local government respected without congressional interference.

Freedom to Marry. We support the right of all families to have equal respect, responsibilities, and protections under the law. We support marriage equality and support the movement to secure equal treatment under law for same-sex couples. We also support the freedom of churches and religious entities to decide how to administer marriage as a religious sacrament without government interference.

We oppose discriminatory federal and state constitutional amendments and other attempts to deny equal protection of the laws to committed same-sex couples who seek the same respect and responsibilities as other married couples. We support the full repeal of the so-called Defense of Marriage Act and the passage of the Respect for Marriage Act.

Firearms. We recognize that the individual right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans' Second Amendment right to own and use firearms. We believe that the right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation. We understand the terrible consequences of gun violence; it serves as a reminder that life is fragile, and our time here is limited and precious. We believe in an honest, open national conversation about firearms. We can focus on effective enforcement of existing laws, especially strengthening our background check system, and we can work together to enact commonsense improvements—like reinstating the assault weapons ban and closing the gun show loophole—so that guns do not fall into the hands of those irresponsible, law-breaking few.

http://www.democrats.org/democratic-national-platform#greater-together


NOTE ON COPYRIGHT--this is a publicly released document, as an attachment to this press release:

http://uspolitics.einnews.com/pr_news/113179836/fwd-democratic-party-releases-2012-platform


No civil rights plank???? Seriously??

51 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Civil Rights Plank of the Democratic Party ('Cause some people missed it!!) (Original Post) msanthrope Sep 2012 OP
More on Civil rights and Liberties Promoted Here and Abroad. msanthrope Sep 2012 #1
+ AtomicKitten Sep 2012 #34
. n/t porphyrian Sep 2012 #49
You've made them reappear! AtomicKitten Sep 2012 #2
It's magic!!!! nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #3
maybe you are mixing up civil right with civil liberties? NoMoreWarNow Sep 2012 #4
You caught the misdirection play. Fuddnik Sep 2012 #7
Which was why the civil liberties plank was posted in the first reply. msanthrope Sep 2012 #12
Facts are good... SidDithers Sep 2012 #5
Oh, SNAP! Odin2005 Sep 2012 #6
What about the civil liberties planks in the '08 platform that aren't in the '12 platform? MadHound Sep 2012 #8
I posted the civ lb plank in reply 1. What do you disagree with? nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #13
You are posting the civil rights plank, MadHound Sep 2012 #23
Nope--I posted the whole civ lib plank in response 1--what are your specific objections to it??? nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #32
What part of "banning torture" do you not understand? What part of "reducing Guantanamo"? Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #50
What a transparently disingenuous OP. woo me with science Sep 2012 #9
I posted the civ lb plank in reply 1. What do you disagree with? nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #14
Still ignoring what Madhound and others point out...Still misdirecting. woo me with science Sep 2012 #16
Again--I posted the whole civi lib plank. Tell us all what you find objectionable in it. nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #33
You are still not reading Response 1. "Banning torture", Guantanomo, etc. is in the plank in resp 1 Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #51
Nobody said there was no "civil rights" plank. Someone posted an article from Mother Jones Puregonzo1188 Sep 2012 #10
Um..no. In reply 1, I posted the civ lb plank..including the prohibition on toture. msanthrope Sep 2012 #15
Red herrings ProSense Sep 2012 #19
''Everyone deserves a fair shot'' all right. Octafish Sep 2012 #11
How many Americans has Obama killed? ProSense Sep 2012 #17
Two that I know of. Apparently three. Octafish Sep 2012 #20
Oh yeah, ProSense Sep 2012 #22
Nothing about holding a hearing to determine if someone's a terrorist. Octafish Sep 2012 #26
You can debate ProSense Sep 2012 #28
Be obtuse, I don't care. The Constitution expressly says no President can do that. Octafish Sep 2012 #30
Um..no. The War Powers Act is Constitutional. msanthrope Sep 2012 #41
No, you are conflating two things. Octafish Sep 2012 #43
No--they can kill persons who fall under the AUMF Congress passed. msanthrope Sep 2012 #44
Going by that, then, anyone who criticizes the USA can be a terrorist. Octafish Sep 2012 #45
Going by the AUMF, you have to be a member of Al Qaeda. Are you a member of al-Qaeda? msanthrope Sep 2012 #46
You have it right there in your own post MadHound Sep 2012 #27
There are ProSense Sep 2012 #29
He was an innocent, killed by our government, MadHound Sep 2012 #31
Wait ProSense Sep 2012 #37
I would have been just fine with Mr. Bush drone striking any member of Al-Qaeda, in accordance with msanthrope Sep 2012 #38
Actually--on the say-so of the Congress, too. You forget that the AUMF of 9/18/01 msanthrope Sep 2012 #40
Um...are you claiming the NSA is shooting missles at Americans, or is that msanthrope Sep 2012 #18
Gosh. The President has ordered American citizens killed without trial and you make fun? Octafish Sep 2012 #21
Again....is that the NSA shooting missles at Americans, or just a stock photo of what you msanthrope Sep 2012 #39
What is the point? For all I know, that drone could be run by Blackwater. Octafish Sep 2012 #42
This blatant attempt at misdirection should sink. woo me with science Sep 2012 #24
Kick! n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #25
Kick for the facts presented in the OP and the first reply...nt SidDithers Sep 2012 #36
kick AtomicKitten Sep 2012 #48
. n/t porphyrian Sep 2012 #35
Kick & rec WonderGrunion Sep 2012 #47
 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
1. More on Civil rights and Liberties Promoted Here and Abroad.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:46 AM
Sep 2012
Advancing Universal Values

America's leadership extends beyond our economic prosperity and military might—it is also rooted in our enduring commitment to advancing a core set of universal values. These include an individual's freedom to speak their mind, assemble without fear, have access to information, worship as they please, and choose their own leaders. They also include dignity, tolerance, and equality among all people, and the fair and equitable administration of justice. The United States was founded upon a belief in these values, and people of every race, region, and religion around the globe have claimed these principles as their own. The President and the Democratic Party believe that nations that embrace these values for their citizens are ultimately more prosperous, peaceful, and friendly to the United States than those that do not.

Staying True to Our Values at Home. We must always seek to uphold these values at home, not just when it is easy, but, more importantly, when it is hard. Advancing our interests may involve new actions and policies to confront threats like terrorism, but the President and the Democratic Party believe these practices must always be in line with our Constitution, preserve our people's privacy and civil liberties, and withstand the checks and balances that have served us so well. That is why the President banned torture without exception in his first week in office. That is why we are reforming military commissions to bring them in line with the rule of law. That is why we are substantially reducing the population at Guantánamo Bay without adding to it. And we remain committed to working with all branches of government to close the prison altogether because it is inconsistent with our national security interests and our values.

Standing With Those Demanding Greater Freedom. As we continue to perfect our union here at home, setting an example for others to follow, we will also continue to champion universal rights abroad. We recognize that different cultures and traditions give life to these values in distinct ways, and each country will inevitably chart its own course. America will not impose any system of government on another country. But we also know that the sovereignty of nations cannot strangle the liberty of individuals. So as people around the world yearn for greater freedom, we will continue to support progress toward more accountable, democratic governance and the exercise of universal rights. We will do so through a variety of means: by speaking out for universal rights, bolstering fragile democracies and civil society, and supporting the dignity that comes with development.

Across the Middle East and North Africa, we have stood with the people demanding political change and seeking their rights during the Arab Spring. Since the beginning of the protests in Tunisia, the United States has consistently opposed violence against innocent civilians, supported a set of universal rights for the people of the region, and supported processes of political and economic reform. When the Egyptian people flooded Tahrir Square in Cairo demanding democracy, the administration actively engaged the Egyptian government, military, and people in support of a transition away from decades of dictatorship and towards democracy. In Libya, we built an international coalition and intervened alongside NATO and other partner nations to protect the Libyan people and support them as they ended Muammar Qadhafi's brutal reign. In Iran, President Obama spoke out in support of the pro- democracy protestors and imposed human rights sanctions on the Iranian government. In Yemen, we worked with Gulf Cooperation Council states to facilitate a peaceful transition of power. And in Syria, we have led the international community to politically and economically isolate the regime, to increase pressure on President Assad to step down, and to provide assistance to unify the Syrian opposition in order to enable a stable transition. Moving forward, we will work to hasten the end of the Assad regime and support a political transition to a stable and democratic Syria. We will continue to support the consolidation of democratic transitions in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Yemen. And we will engage governments and civil society across the region on behalf of genuine efforts to promote political and economic reforms that are responsive to the people of the region.

The Arab Spring represents the world's most sweeping recent movement toward democracy, but it is not an isolated case. Across the globe, people are demanding more from their governments—and, when they do, they will continue to find support and partnership in the United States. For example, in Burma, we successfully employed a combination of sanctions and engagement to encourage the government to open up political space and release political prisoners. Our historic opening to Burma will continue to incentivize a democratic transition, a deeper engagement with the United States, and national reconciliation among Burma's many different ethnic groups. And because human rights violations persist, we will continue to speak clearly about the additional steps that must be taken for the government of Burma to have a better relationship with the United States.

In Africa, the administration engaged to ensure a legitimate transfer of power in Cote d'Ivoire, supported the independence of South Sudan, and remains actively involved in resolving the issues between Sudan and South Sudan. In the Americas, we see vibrant democracies in countries from Mexico to Brazil and Costa Rica to Chile. We have also seen historic peaceful transfers of power in places like El Salvador and Uruguay. Yet despite the region's democratic progress, stark inequalities in political and economic power endure. We will continue to press for more transparent and accountable governance. And we will promote greater freedom in Cuba and Venezuela until all their citizens enjoy the universal rights they deserve.

Under President Obama, we have undertaken the most significant efforts in decades to engage the Cuban people. We have focused on the importance of the family ties between Cuban Americans and their relatives still living under oppression. Because of steps the President has taken, it is now possible for Cuban Americans to visit and support their families in Cuba, and to send remittances that reduce the Cuban people's dependence on the Cuban state. We have taken additional steps to bolster Cuban civil society, expanding purposeful exchanges that bolster independent religious groups on the island and enhancing the free flow of information to, from, and among the Cuban people. Going forward we will continue to support the Cuban people's desire to freely determine their own future.

Promoting Transparent, Accountable Governance and the Rule of Law. To promote transparent and accountable government worldwide, we joined with Brazil to launch and co-chair the international Open Government Partnership. Fifty-five countries now belong to the partnership—representing a quarter of the world's people—each of which has outlined concrete, credible steps to open the work of government so citizens are empowered, problems are solved, and democracy is strengthened.

The President and Democrats know that a commitment to the rule of law and effective judicial institutions are essential to sustainable economic development and must remain a core American value in the years to come. That is why the Obama administration has successfully pressed for international action against government corruption through the G-20 and promoted new initiatives to help countries develop stronger judicial institutions. Because the public's rights, freedoms, and access to economic opportunity depend on the rule of law, we will continue to work in partnership with our allies to promote this important value around the world.

Standing up for Women's Rights Around the Globe. As we work to advance universal values and human dignity, the President and the Democratic Party understand the critical importance of expanding protections and opportunities for women and girls around the world. Ensuring full equality and providing women and girls the opportunity to learn, earn a livable wage, and participate in public decision-making are essential to reduce violence, improve economies, and strengthen democracy. To continue to make progress at home and advance women's rights and opportunities abroad, we will urge ratification of the Convention for the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

President Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, and the State Department are committed to advancing the rights of women and girls as a central focus of U.S. diplomatic, development, and defense interests. We will continue to promote the full engagement of women in the political and economic spheres. We will work to address underlying socio-economic problems, including women's access to health, education, and food security. And we will ensure that women are equal participants in reconciliation and development in areas affected by conflict.

President Obama and the Democratic Party are committed to supporting family planning around the globe to help women care for their families, support their communities, and lead their countries to be healthier and more productive. That's why, in his first month in office, President Obama overturned the "global gag rule," a ban on federal funds to foreign family planning organizations that provided information about, counseling on, or offered abortions. And that is why the administration has supported lifesaving family planning health information and services.

Combating Human Trafficking. Some 27 million women, men, and children around the world are victims of human trafficking. The President and the Democratic Party believe that trafficking in persons is both an affront to our fundamental values and, as a source of funds for transnational criminals and terrorist organization, a threat to national and international security. The Obama administration has used bilateral and multilateral diplomacy, targeted foreign assistance, training programs, public outreach, and law enforcement to combat trafficking in persons across the globe. The administration has continued to provide annual assessments of the strengths and weaknesses of foreign governments' efforts to address the issue, encouraging all countries to do more and calling out countries that have failed to do enough. And the administration has provided technical assistance to improve law enforcement and grants to support grassroots prevention efforts around the world targeting sex and labor trafficking, child sex tourism, forced child labor, and other abuses. The administration is also committed to taking action at home to fight trafficking, including the sex trafficking of young girls.

Gay Rights as Human Rights. Recognizing that gay rights are human rights, the President and his administration have vowed to actively combat efforts by other nations that criminalize homosexual conduct or ignore abuse. Under the Obama administration, American diplomats must raise the issue wherever harassment or abuse arises, and they are required to record it in the State Department's annual report on human rights. And the State Department is funding a program that finances gay rights organizations to combat discrimination, violence, and other abuses.

Internet Freedom. The Obama administration has led the world to recognize and defend Internet freedom—the freedom of expression, assembly, and association online for people everywhere—through coalitions of countries and by empowering individuals with innovative technologies. The administration has built partnerships to support an Internet that is secure and reliable and that is respectful of U.S. intellectual property, free flow of information, and privacy. To preserve the Internet as a platform for commerce, debate, learning, and innovation in the 21st century, we successfully negotiated international Internet policymaking principles, support the current multi-stakeholder approach to Internet governance, and oppose the extension of intergovernmental controls over the Internet.

Through all these actions, America is leading again. By responsibly ending the wars, rebalancing our foreign policy, taking concrete steps to address the greatest threats to our country, cooperating with allies and partners to tackle common challenges, reinvigorating international institutions, and sustaining and building the core pillars of U.S. leadership, President Obama and the Democratic Party have worked to ensure that the 21st century remains an American one. That is why we are stronger abroad, and safer and more secure at home, than we were four years ago.

The United States continues to move forward towards a future of strong and sustained growth. Thanks to the leadership of President Obama and Democrats around the country, we're fighting back from the deepest economic crisis since the Great Depression by making investments to create jobs, grow the middle class, and lay the foundations for an economy that out-educates, out-builds, and out-innovates the rest of the world. Today, America is both stronger and safer than it was four years ago. Now, we must continue the work we've started so that the United States of America never fails to meet the tests of our time.
 

NoMoreWarNow

(1,259 posts)
4. maybe you are mixing up civil right with civil liberties?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 07:08 AM
Sep 2012

I think the issue was what were the positions on civil liberties:
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/09/democrats-retreat-civil-liberties-2012-platform

I don't know who was saying there was no civil rights plank

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
8. What about the civil liberties planks in the '08 platform that aren't in the '12 platform?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 08:12 AM
Sep 2012
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/09/democrats-retreat-civil-liberties-2012-platform

Oh, yeah, they're gone. Hmm, what does that say about the party stance on civil liberties?
 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
23. You are posting the civil rights plank,
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:34 AM
Sep 2012

But ignoring the fact that, as pointed out in the article I linked to, there are several distinct civil liberty planks missing. Where is the plank damning the Patriot Act? Where is the plank damning indefinite detention? The plank against torture, or racial profiling, or Gitmo? They are all gone.

You are continuing to try and distract people with civil rights, when the question I'm raising is about civil liberties. So please, in plain language, without attempts to distract, where are those planks on civil liberties that were present in the '08 platform, but are missing from the '12 platform?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
32. Nope--I posted the whole civ lib plank in response 1--what are your specific objections to it??? nt
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 10:12 AM
Sep 2012

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,788 posts)
50. What part of "banning torture" do you not understand? What part of "reducing Guantanamo"?
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 02:56 AM
Sep 2012

Read Response 1. It's in there.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
9. What a transparently disingenuous OP.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 08:45 AM
Sep 2012

Care to address the missing parts Madhound references here and in the other OP, or are you only interested in misdirection?

Puregonzo1188

(1,948 posts)
10. Nobody said there was no "civil rights" plank. Someone posted an article from Mother Jones
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 08:48 AM
Sep 2012

about how torture, the Patriot Act, and warrantless wiretapping were mentioned in the 2008 platform and were not in the 2012 platform. A true statement. The title of the article mentioned something about civil liberties disappearing from the platform or something like that.

Shame on you for intellectual dishonesty.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
15. Um..no. In reply 1, I posted the civ lb plank..including the prohibition on toture.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:13 AM
Sep 2012

What part of that do you disagree with?













ProSense

(116,464 posts)
19. Red herrings
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:22 AM
Sep 2012

while accusing someone of "intellectual dishonesty"?

ENDING TORTURE = Three Torches
  • Ordered an end to the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, withdrew
    flawed legal analysis used to justify torture and applied the Army Field Manual on interrogations
    government wide.
  • Abolished the CIA secret prisons.
  • Says that “waterboarding is torture” and “contrary to America’s traditions… contrary to our ideals.”
  • No reports of extraordinary rendition to torture or other cruelty under his administration.
  • Failed to hold those responsible for past torture and other cruelty accountable; has blocked
    alleged victims of torture from having their day in court.
http://www.aclulibertywatch.org/ALWCandidateReportCard.pdf


The Democratic Platform specifically address civil rights and civil liberties. People are outraged that it doesn't read exactly like the 2008 platform. This document is more comprehensive and reflective of the administration's record.



ProSense

(116,464 posts)
17. How many Americans has Obama killed?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:14 AM
Sep 2012

"Panetta: Decision to Kill Americans Suspected of Terrorism Is Obama's"

I mean, take Panetta's statement to imply what: Obama targets terrorists?

Oooh, scary!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
20. Two that I know of. Apparently three.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:25 AM
Sep 2012

No one really knows. Do know that killing people without trial is most un-Democratic.

Relatives Sue Officials Over U.S. Citizens Killed by Drone Strikes in Yemen

Either way, I know that even one is one too many. The fact that Americans can be killed without trial is scary.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
22. Oh yeah,
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:27 AM
Sep 2012
The first strike, on Sept. 30, killed a group of people including Anwar al-Awlaki, a radical Muslim cleric who was born in New Mexico, and Samir Khan, a naturalized American citizen who lived at times in Queens, Long Island and North Carolina. The second, on Oct. 14, killed a group of people including Mr. Awlaki’s 16-year-old son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, who was born in Colorado.

...terrorists!

Nothing about Obama targeting Americans who aren't terrorist.



Octafish

(55,745 posts)
26. Nothing about holding a hearing to determine if someone's a terrorist.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:36 AM
Sep 2012

All there was was one man hearing evidence gathered by a secret government agency.

Nothing, either, about due process of law.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
28. You can debate
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:38 AM
Sep 2012

whether or not you believe he was a terrorist, but the fact remains that a defined terrorist was targeted.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
30. Be obtuse, I don't care. The Constitution expressly says no President can do that.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:44 AM
Sep 2012

Due Process of law is required. Perhaps the USA PATRIOT Act gives him some super secret powers that We the People can't know about -- it's classified above our need to know level.

Not even US Senators Wyden and Udall can tell us about it. That, too, is un-Democratic.

It's all un-American.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
41. Um..no. The War Powers Act is Constitutional.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 12:30 PM
Sep 2012

Under the AUMF of 9/18/01, the President can kill al-Qaeda where he finds them.

Your Congress said so. SCOTUS hasn't demurred. The Executive is doing his job...and I just wish Bush had done his. A strike at Tora Bora would have solved a lot of problems.

You are conflating two things here---1) Due Process, and 2) a right to trial.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
43. No, you are conflating two things.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 01:33 PM
Sep 2012

Bush and Obama can kill Americans because their lawyers said so.

From what I can see, the subject hasn't come up for debate before Congress.

BTW: Due process includes a right to a trial.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
44. No--they can kill persons who fall under the AUMF Congress passed.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 01:40 PM
Sep 2012

You may not be able to 'see' it, but the Congress most definitely passed the AUMF of 9/18/01.

Due process does not always include the right to trial.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
45. Going by that, then, anyone who criticizes the USA can be a terrorist.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 01:45 PM
Sep 2012

Even teen age kids of American citizens who are labeled terrorists are terrorists, as long as its official-like.

Thanks for spelling it out: 9-11 really did change everything.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
46. Going by the AUMF, you have to be a member of Al Qaeda. Are you a member of al-Qaeda?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 01:53 PM
Sep 2012

Are you a member of a group responsible for 9/11?

You could try reading the AUMF--tell us where criticizing the US puts you under the AUMF?

Alwaki's son was not targeted....but he was riding with a target, Ibrahaim al-Banna. This is terrible--every civilian death is terrible and disgusting.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
27. You have it right there in your own post
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:36 AM
Sep 2012

Abdurlrahman al Awlake, an American citizen, sixteen years old, not a terrorist.

Besides, who determines whether an American citizen is a terrorist? The president, acting as judge, jury and executioner. Gotta love those weekly kill lists he draws up.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
29. There are
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:40 AM
Sep 2012

civilian casualties in many drone strikes. He was with the targeted terrorist. He was not the target, but I'm sure you know that.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
31. He was an innocent, killed by our government,
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:46 AM
Sep 2012

Who killed his father with no trial, just on the say so of a president.

Let me ask you this, do you want Romney or Ryan with that sort of power? Somehow I doubt it, because even you despised Bush having that sort of power. So what, it is now OK to kill US citizens without a trial, killing other innocent US citizens in the process, if you are a president with a D behind your name?

Amazing the hypocrisy.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
37. Wait
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 12:08 PM
Sep 2012

" He was an innocent, killed by our government"

...so are all the civilian casualties.

Let me ask you this, do you want Romney or Ryan with that sort of power? Somehow I doubt it, because even you despised Bush having that sort of power. So what, it is now OK to kill US citizens without a trial, killing other innocent US citizens in the process, if you are a president with a D behind your name?


You're using a civilian casualty to bolster your claim that Obama is targeting Americans. Do you think that somehow an American civilian casualty is more special than the other civilian casualties?

Obama isn't targeting Americans, he's targeting terrorists.

Romney-Ryan is going to lose, hate to disappoint you.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
38. I would have been just fine with Mr. Bush drone striking any member of Al-Qaeda, in accordance with
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 12:15 PM
Sep 2012

the AUMF passed by our Congress 9/18/01.

A drone strike to Bin Laden at Tora Bora would have solved lots of problems.

I don't have a problem with Anwar Awlaki dying. I think it's terrible that shortly after his death, his son was struck while traveling with Ibrahim al-Banna. I blame al-Banna for that--there was no reason to involve children in his activities.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
40. Actually--on the say-so of the Congress, too. You forget that the AUMF of 9/18/01
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 12:25 PM
Sep 2012

passed overwhelmingly.

And Awlaki, outside our custody, had no right to a trial.

We can bomb Al-Qaeda wherever we find the fuckers. Our Congress, SCOTUS, say the Executive can do so.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
18. Um...are you claiming the NSA is shooting missles at Americans, or is that
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:17 AM
Sep 2012

just some random picture of what you think is a 'spy plane?'
















Octafish

(55,745 posts)
21. Gosh. The President has ordered American citizens killed without trial and you make fun?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:26 AM
Sep 2012

Great post, msanthrope.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
39. Again....is that the NSA shooting missles at Americans, or just a stock photo of what you
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 12:19 PM
Sep 2012

think a 'spy plane' looks like?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
42. What is the point? For all I know, that drone could be run by Blackwater.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 01:30 PM
Sep 2012

Blackwater appears to have done a lot of wet work via drone for NSA, CIA, Obama -- and Bush.



C.I.A. Said to Use Outsiders to Put Bombs on Drones

By JAMES RISEN and MARK MAZZETTI
The New York Times
August 21, 2009

WASHINGTON — From a secret division at its North Carolina headquarters, the company formerly known as Blackwater has assumed a role in Washington’s most important counterterrorism program: the use of remotely piloted drones to kill Al Qaeda’s leaders, according to government officials and current and former employees.

The division’s operations are carried out at hidden bases in Pakistan and Afghanistan, where the company’s contractors assemble and load Hellfire missiles and 500-pound laser-guided bombs on remotely piloted Predator aircraft, work previously performed by employees of the Central Intelligence Agency. They also provide security at the covert bases, the officials said.

The role of the company in the Predator program highlights the degree to which the C.I.A. now depends on outside contractors to perform some of the agency’s most important assignments. And it illustrates the resilience of Blackwater, now known as Xe (pronounced Zee) Services, though most people in and outside the company still refer to it as Blackwater. It has grown through government work, even as it attracted criticism and allegations of brutality in Iraq.

SNIP...

In interviews on Thursday, current and former government officials provided new details about Blackwater’s association with the assassination program, which began in 2004 not long after Porter J. Goss took over at the C.I.A. The officials said that the spy agency did not dispatch the Blackwater executives with a “license to kill.” Instead, it ordered the contractors to begin collecting information on the whereabouts of Al Qaeda’s leaders, carry out surveillance and train for possible missions.

“The actual pulling of a trigger in some ways is the easiest part, and the part that requires the least expertise,” said one government official familiar with the canceled C.I.A. program. “It’s everything that leads up to it that’s the meat of the issue.”

CONTINUED...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/us/21intel.html



My point: It doesn't matter what public or private organization kills Americans without trial: IT IS WRONG. Thanks for your interesting question.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
24. This blatant attempt at misdirection should sink.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:35 AM
Sep 2012

The OP is deliberately ignoring direct questions and trying to misrepresent/paper over the important civil liberties omissions in the New Democratic Party platform, pointed out by Madhound and others. The obvious purpose of this thread is to shift attention from an important issue the OP does not want discussed.

The original thread with actual substance: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021267747

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