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Sat Sep 1, 2012, 10:59 AM

The throat-slitting gesture: Did EASTWOOD know it's part of Mormon ritual?

In the BBC's "The Mormon Candidate," featured for a month on Current TV, it's described that in the swearing into Mormonism ceremony, one of the rituals is a throat-slitting gesture to signify doing that before divulging church secrets.


Secrecy. It's Mittens/church m.o. A few years ago they had a commercial on t.v. offering a very beautifully produced DVD about Easter/Jesus, very authentic looking costumes, acting, whatever. The deal was it was free but with an agreement to let missionaries visit once.

Besides being enticed by the DVD, I was curious in a very non-biased way about what they believed, as much as about whatever other meditative system (Taoism, Buddhism, whatever). So these two polite young dudes arrived, inquired about my intentions a bit, asked me to lead a prayer for them, which I in my 50 or so years of secular humanism did an unimpressive job of and they were clearly unimpressed. So I asked them what they believed. They went into an automatic babble about Jesus Jesus Jesus. I said that, O.K., I was familiar with that topic so what ELSE did their system consist of, what was DIFFERENT. They did a vague verbal tap dance and changed the subject. I said that if there was nothing different I might as well stay as I am.

I posted this story before and somebody replied that this is known as the "milk before meat" strategy, that an infant can only process milk and can't do the meat thing until later, that the Mormons are trained on this.

So, Mittens keeps being expected to tell about his finances and his religion and his agenda, and he does this vague verbal tap dance and most of us think of this in secular terms like "flip flopping" but it's a deeply engrained feature of his belief system.

In "The Mormon Candidate" Mittens' second cousin who left the church and says he is "alienated" (shunned) from his family says that they "don't realize the degree to which they engage in brain washing" and that they are "masters of mendacity."

Secrecy. Mendacity.

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Reply The throat-slitting gesture: Did EASTWOOD know it's part of Mormon ritual? (Original post)
UTUSN Sep 2012 OP
CJCRANE Sep 2012 #1
bemildred Sep 2012 #9
intaglio Sep 2012 #2
defacto7 Sep 2012 #24
woodsprite Sep 2012 #3
joeybee12 Sep 2012 #4
UTUSN Sep 2012 #5
joeybee12 Sep 2012 #11
nc4bo Sep 2012 #8
Walk away Sep 2012 #10
kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #6
UTUSN Sep 2012 #7
Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #12
barbtries Sep 2012 #16
kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #18
Yooperman Sep 2012 #39
kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #41
Yooperman Sep 2012 #42
HiPointDem Sep 2012 #44
barbtries Sep 2012 #45
defacto7 Sep 2012 #31
kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #36
liberalmuse Sep 2012 #13
valerief Sep 2012 #14
barbtries Sep 2012 #15
kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #19
defacto7 Sep 2012 #27
kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #37
defacto7 Sep 2012 #43
WinkyDink Sep 2012 #46
defacto7 Sep 2012 #48
Octafish Sep 2012 #17
kartski Sep 2012 #20
defacto7 Sep 2012 #29
Overseas Sep 2012 #21
cherokeeprogressive Sep 2012 #22
ashling Sep 2012 #25
defacto7 Sep 2012 #33
gort Sep 2012 #38
RT_Fanatic Sep 2012 #23
nc4bo Sep 2012 #26
defacto7 Sep 2012 #34
jberryhill Sep 2012 #40
Berlum Sep 2012 #28
grantcart Sep 2012 #30
FreeState Sep 2012 #32
defacto7 Sep 2012 #35
icarusxat Sep 2012 #47

Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:01 AM

1. I doubt Clint thought about it much.

He was just riffing on a theme. He may have had a few drinks beforehand.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:41 AM

9. Yeah, he's been in the bubble a long time now.

Always ambitious, very successful, things start to look different after a while.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:08 AM

2. A throat slit gesture is also Masonic

Not that Joe Smith stole anything from other faiths ...

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Response to intaglio (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:38 PM

24. Historically the Mormons and the Masons are arch rivals.

Joe Smith was a high degree Mason but was thrown out of the Masons just before he decided to make up his religion. Smith did take many of the Masonic rituals from his Masonic background.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:11 AM

3. Mittens believes in "Bain washing". n/t

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:23 AM

4. That milk-meat sh*t is like Scientology...

Hmmm

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:28 AM

5. The BBC narrator said that the two are similar "but Mormons are smarter"!1 and both are CULTS n/t

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Response to UTUSN (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:46 AM

11. Yup...a cult...having been raised RC (now totally lapsed), I was never told

that you couldn't tell others what you believe in, that anythig was off limits...a lot of it seems weird to other religions, but it's not like you were told to hold anything back.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:39 AM

8. Sounds similar to Jehovah's Witnesses too

Not slamming JW's - just that you will not have your curiosity satisfied immediately.

I want to know right now, what it is you actually believe in. Now, not 6 months down the road when you think I can handle it.

Meat first, tyvm.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:43 AM

10. That's the first thing I thought.

Just standard cult stuff.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:31 AM

6. The LDS throat-slitting gesture is part of temple ceremonies and is a depiction of what WILL BE DONE

to you if you tell church secrets. It's a nod to their doctrine of blood atonement, which my g-g-g-grandfather helped to enforce back in the 1800s.

Though according to his autobiography he usually shot them rather than slitting their throats.

Regardless of method, he did it a lot and Joe Smith and Brigham Young rewarded him richly for his efforts.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:33 AM

7. Ah. That clears it up for me. And wow. n/t

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:54 AM

12. It's something they nicked from the Freemasons along with most of their other temple ceremony

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:17 PM

16. wow

write a book kestrel, i'd love to read that story!

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Response to barbtries (Reply #16)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:45 PM

18. He already wrote it. After he turned on the Mormons, he spent the rest of his life running from them

Brigham Young and his buddies were indicted on multiple counts of capital murder and my g-g-g-grandfather was set to be the star witness for the prosecution. But then a USSC decision about how federal grand juries were empaneled meant the case had to be thrown out, and they never could get another indictment because all the grand jurors were locals and, you guessed it, loyal Mormons.

His book:
http://www.amazon.com/Brighams-Destroying-Angel-Philosophy-Religion/dp/1429019751/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

His Google search results:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Brigham's+Destroying+Angel&aq=f&sugexp=chrome,mod=2&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=Brigham's%20Destroying%20Ange&tok=VDsSLqOfLtOMIyWayvl3dA&pq=brigham's%20destroying%20angel&cp=16&gs_id=3t&xhr=t&q=william+adams+hickman&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=william+adams+hi&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=7d3f23e8cc470e55&biw=1366&bih=643

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:13 PM

39. Very interesting stuff.

I found the wiki article about him very fascinating and found it amusing that he was "re-baptized" into the LDS by proxy in 1934.

For me even if he didn't commit all of his crimes, that he was making some of it up... all it would take is for one to be true...and him refusing to murder another opponent of Brigham Young and be excommunicated shortly after is enough for me to believe him.

It's too bad they didn't follow through with charging B.Y. with having Hickman's "testimony" (pun intended) implicating him.

We will never really know all the terrible things that B.Y. and Joseph Smith did, but with this information and what happened with the "Mountain Meadow Massacre", I tend to believe your GGGG Grandfather was probably telling the whole truth and nothing but.

Thanks for sharing...

YM

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Response to Yooperman (Reply #39)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:34 PM

41. Hickman's oldest daughter by his first (and only legitimate) wife

was my grandfather's grandmother. She knew of his deeds pretty much firsthand, and told her children and grandchildren. He killed many people on the orders of Smith and Young.

The LDS church has spent over a century trying to whitewash the whole sordid affair and deny it, and claim the Danites never existed, and that Hickman was a liar. But in the day you only got to take plural wives when you pleased the prophet greatly. Hickman received 9 plural wives.

Oh, and I found published evidence from a couple of journalists back in the day that placed him following the pioneers murdered at Mountain Meadows with his Danites, then returning up north after the massacre in possession of the pioneers' property. So I am convinced he led that crime, which has never been attributed to the Danites. They railroaded Jacob Hamblin for the crime, but I don't know if he was anything but one of the worker bees for it.

He would never have confessed to this crime, of course, because it was not against Mormons who had transgressed and been subjected to blood atonement, but rather "innocent" Gentiles (though they were supposedly targeted because they came from MO and were blamed in proxy for the murder of Parley Pratt in MO by Gentile locals). Mitt Rmoney is, interestingly, descended from the very same Parley Pratt, a Mormon martyr.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #41)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:56 PM

42. Thanks for the information....

I lived in Salt Lake City for over a dozen years. My wife was a school teacher in the Jordan District. We had made wonderful friends and have fond memories of the fine people that we had met over the years. Many were good Mormons and of course several times tried to get us involved but we politely refused. They termed us "Dry Mormons" lol... as they believed we lived our lives like they did but weren't Mormons.

My wife taught several children from polygamist homes and actually didn't have any problems with most of them.

Your statement of Romney being a descendant of Parley Pratt.... I believe Mitt says his Grandfather immigrated from Mexico. Do you know how that fits in... Just curious.

All I know is that the founders of the "Church" were ruthless.

Thanks again for sharing what you know.

YM

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Response to Yooperman (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 03:09 PM

44. There's a table at the bottom of this page. Basically Pratt's g-daughter married Mitt's g'father.

 

Last edited Sun Sep 2, 2012, 12:16 AM - Edit history (1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_family

(George) Romney's grandparents were polygamous Mormons who fled the United States with their children owing to the federal government's prosecution of polygamy. His maternal grandfather was Helaman Pratt (18461909), who presided over the Mormon mission in Mexico City before moving to the Mexican state of Chihuahua and who was the son of original Mormon apostle Parley P. Pratt. In the 1920s, Romney's uncle Rey L. Pratt (18781931) played a major role in the preservation and expansion of the Mormon presence in Mexico and in its introduction to South America...

Romney's parents, Gaskell Romney (18711955) and Anna Amelia Pratt (18761926), were American citizens and natives of the Territory of Utah. Gaskell Romney was born in Chihuahua, Mexico. They married in 1895 in Mexico... where George was born on July 8, 1907. They practiced monogamy (polygamy having been abolished by the 1890 Manifesto, although it persisted in places, especially Mexico)...Gaskell Romney was a successful carpenter, house builder, and farmer who headed the most prosperous family in the colony,which was situated in an agricultural valley below the Sierra Madre Occidental...

The Mexican Revolution broke out in 1910 and the Mormon colonies were endangered in 19111912 by raids from marauders...The Romney family fled and returned to the United States in July 1912, leaving their home and almost all of their property behind....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Romney

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 03:16 PM

45. thanks for those links.

very interesting stuff out there.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:50 PM

31. Where did your gggGrandfather live when he was Mormon?

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:01 PM

36. Born in MO, came west with the early Mormons, lived in UT for decades.

Traveled throughout the west in his adventures. Spent his elder years running from the Mormons, mostly in WY where he died.

Lived in Nauvoo IL and was one of Joseph Smith's bodyguards, and was there when Smith was lynched.

I read recently that he died of "the bloody flux", which could be indicative of poisoning, so I wouldn't put it past the Mormons to have found a way to assassinate him. They were really big on that blood atonement thing, and he became public enemy #1 to them.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:59 AM

13. That was my first thought when I'd heard about it...

having been a Mormon. It's rather creepy. The slashing motion is done while saying a vow to remain faithful to the Mormon church, "I suffer my life to be taken". Temple-going Mormons know exactly what that gesture meant.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:06 PM

14. And he's a bishop. A man. Not one to be questioned. Not accustomed to being questioned. nt

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:15 PM

15. lying for the lord

i am convinced that his religion is one big reason that romney not only lies constantly but never betrays one second of remorse about his incessant lying. he believes it's okay.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #15)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:46 PM

19. The Mormon hierarchy has an unwritten policy of allowing and even encouraging lying if they believe

it will serve to benefit the church in some way.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:43 PM

27. Not just Mormons....

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

Martin Luther

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #27)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:03 PM

37. Martin Luther had his own set of issues. This sort of crap is why i don't

belong to ANY particular faith.

That said, I don't think most modern christian denominations have such a blatant policy of deceiving others.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #37)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 03:02 PM

43. Agreed....

I don't have a faith, period.

"Blatant policy" are definitely the right words. Other beliefs for the most part are more subtle to one degree or another, at times subtle to the point of simple denial.

No... Mormons are right out there when it comes to deceit.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #27)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 03:24 PM

46. The man Martin Luther does not constitute a religion, FYI.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #46)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 04:49 PM

48. You're right...

Last edited Sat Sep 1, 2012, 06:28 PM - Edit history (2)

He just revolutionized a world religion that became all of Protestantism.

Joseph Smith the man is not a religion.
John Calvin the man is not a religion.
Ellen White the Woman is not a religion.
Charles Russell the man is not a religion.

The list goes on. But they all, including almost all non-Catholic Christianity, originated with Martin Luther.

Big EDIT: L. Ron H. should not be on that list. My bad. His stuff is not from Christianity at all. I shall remove him and put him below.

L. Ron Hubbard the man is not a religion... and has nothing to do with M.L. but a manipulator of human frailty and promoter of lies just the same.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:26 PM

17. J Edgar Hoover LOVED Mormons in the Bureau.

White. Quiet. Obedient. Don't drive drunk and smash up the Bureau's cars.

They got what the Reich needs.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:51 PM

20. Wisdom

A number of years ago, I went to an Equipment School and there was a Non-Mormon guy from Micron Semiconductors in Idaho.
He said, "Never go fishing with just one Mormon, he'll drink all your beer. Make sure there are two and they'll watch each other."
My in-laws are converts, my step father in-law is always going out to his shed to smoke cigarets, you can see the pack in his pocket.

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Response to kartski (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

29. They sound like Jack Mormons.

'None of those here where I live... squeaky clean and disinfected. SLC

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:02 PM

21. I'm glad Clint drew attention to Mormon secrecy with that gesture.

Until Romney was nominated, I didn't know enough about the bizarre tenets of the Mormon faith.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:06 PM

22. Isn't that gesture also the on-set signal for "Cut!"? n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:38 PM

25. My thought exactly.

He is an actor and director and certainly familiar with it from that pov

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:56 PM

33. Using Occams razor....

That's probably what it was.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a reminder to those who know Mormon tradition.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:10 PM

38. Yes. I believe it is a gesture used in radio broadcasting.

I believe producers or board operators use it as a non verbal signal to let an announcer know they need to stop talking for a news break or commercial break or basically when they need someone to stop talking.

I think floor managers on studio sets use it too although they hold their hand up to their throat to signify "Cut!"

I did not see Clint's ad lib. Did he actually do the miming of slitting someone's throat?


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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:15 PM

23. Why, exactly

does a church need secrets?

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Response to RT_Fanatic (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:42 PM

26. The church doesn't need them but the men (typically) who run the church

would find secrets, making, keeping or perhaps basing an entire ceremony on them, very convenient.

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:58 PM

34. Fear is religions greatest tool...

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Response to RT_Fanatic (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:13 PM

40. They say "sacred not secret"....

...but it works out the same.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

28. OCCULTISM is both a Mormon and a Republican way of life

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

30. I'm not sure that Clint knew what a chair was for at one point.

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:51 PM

32. This is not part of the temple ceremony any longer

They took it out in early 1992 (there were more "penalties" that we're also taken out).

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Response to FreeState (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:00 PM

35. Thanks... I didn't know that.

The Masons still do the "cutting out of the tongue and casing it into the sea" thing.

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Response to FreeState (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 03:31 PM

47. God changed his mind?

The root of all flip flops

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