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Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:08 PM

Few working at Staples make a living wage.

Minimum wage. Less than 30 hours per week. No benefits. No opportunities for advancement.

One of my brightest friends worked there for a period and he told me all about it. It sucked as a place to work.

Staples sucks.

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Reply Few working at Staples make a living wage. (Original post)
longship Aug 2012 OP
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #1
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #2
Sherman A1 Aug 2012 #6
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #7
Texasgal Aug 2012 #13
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #27
blue moon 2012 Aug 2012 #112
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #19
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #26
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #33
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #49
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #53
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #58
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #67
Texasgal Aug 2012 #126
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #133
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #142
Texasgal Aug 2012 #146
Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #165
Texasgal Sep 2012 #167
CreekDog Aug 2012 #82
Mimosa Aug 2012 #118
forthemiddle Aug 2012 #140
MADem Aug 2012 #52
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #55
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #61
marions ghost Aug 2012 #72
Heddi Aug 2012 #86
marions ghost Aug 2012 #90
Heddi Aug 2012 #132
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #138
Heddi Aug 2012 #157
Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #164
reformist2 Sep 2012 #166
Gormy Cuss Aug 2012 #88
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #139
Gormy Cuss Sep 2012 #168
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #97
Mimosa Aug 2012 #120
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #122
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #144
HiPointDem Sep 2012 #160
Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #163
HiPointDem Sep 2012 #171
reformist2 Aug 2012 #99
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #143
former-republican Aug 2012 #63
MADem Aug 2012 #65
marions ghost Aug 2012 #91
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #129
Texasgal Aug 2012 #131
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #149
Starry Messenger Sep 2012 #161
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #134
tilsammans Aug 2012 #147
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #96
jwirr Aug 2012 #102
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #128
Dash87 Sep 2012 #158
Incitatus Aug 2012 #10
upi402 Aug 2012 #141
Texasgal Aug 2012 #3
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #14
Texasgal Aug 2012 #20
reformist2 Aug 2012 #21
Terra Alta Aug 2012 #29
Terra Alta Aug 2012 #4
longship Aug 2012 #16
CreekDog Aug 2012 #83
Alduin Aug 2012 #46
obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #66
tammywammy Aug 2012 #74
Starry Messenger Aug 2012 #68
CreekDog Aug 2012 #77
HangOnKids Aug 2012 #105
LeftyMom Aug 2012 #89
Romulox Aug 2012 #93
closeupready Aug 2012 #94
MindPilot Aug 2012 #103
kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #114
Starry Messenger Sep 2012 #162
reformist2 Aug 2012 #5
Sherman A1 Aug 2012 #9
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #12
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #23
reformist2 Aug 2012 #30
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #35
reformist2 Aug 2012 #38
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #41
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #125
Robb Aug 2012 #31
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #37
brentspeak Aug 2012 #36
reformist2 Aug 2012 #42
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #48
CreekDog Aug 2012 #76
kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #108
Jamastiene Aug 2012 #156
fascisthunter Aug 2012 #8
haele Aug 2012 #100
reformist2 Aug 2012 #107
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #11
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #17
Lone_Star_Dem Aug 2012 #28
reformist2 Aug 2012 #15
blueamy66 Aug 2012 #18
reformist2 Aug 2012 #22
Texasgal Aug 2012 #25
DiverDave Aug 2012 #98
kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #109
lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #124
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #39
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #44
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #137
Texasgal Aug 2012 #130
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #135
Texasgal Aug 2012 #136
longship Aug 2012 #40
reformist2 Aug 2012 #50
former-republican Aug 2012 #24
reformist2 Aug 2012 #32
former-republican Aug 2012 #43
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #92
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #34
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #47
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #56
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #57
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #64
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #71
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #80
reformist2 Aug 2012 #73
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #78
obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #75
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #79
dmallind Sep 2012 #159
dhol82 Aug 2012 #60
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #70
CreekDog Aug 2012 #104
kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #113
CreekDog Aug 2012 #115
Texasgal Aug 2012 #123
kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #155
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #148
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #153
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #145
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #150
davidn3600 Aug 2012 #81
Incitatus Aug 2012 #85
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #152
Honeycombe8 Aug 2012 #151
davidn3600 Sep 2012 #172
xchrom Aug 2012 #45
longship Aug 2012 #51
coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #54
Blecht Aug 2012 #127
GObamaGO Aug 2012 #59
Texasgal Aug 2012 #62
Starry Messenger Aug 2012 #69
CreekDog Aug 2012 #84
closeupready Aug 2012 #106
liberal_at_heart Aug 2012 #87
reformist2 Aug 2012 #95
LineReply .
Liberal_in_LA Aug 2012 #101
moondust Aug 2012 #110
reformist2 Aug 2012 #111
haele Aug 2012 #116
Mimosa Aug 2012 #117
Pale Blue Dot Aug 2012 #119
applegrove Aug 2012 #121
madrchsod Aug 2012 #154
lunasun Sep 2012 #169
lunasun Sep 2012 #170

Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:12 PM

1. then either don't take the job or quit

nt

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:13 PM

2. When these are the only jobs available

it is difficult to tell people to quit or don't take the job.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:15 PM

6. +1

You hit the nail on the head.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:17 PM

7. then don't take the job or quit

I knew I'd get slammed.

If you accept a job with crappy pay and bennies, what do you expect? An act of God?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:21 PM

13. you should get slammed.

How does one accept a GREAT job with GOOD bennies if there are none to be had?

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #13)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:30 PM

27. I think this one took a left turn instead of a right turn

If you know what I mean.

I do not get the not agreeing with a decent day's pay for a decent day's work attitude.

Sounds an awful lot like Mitt Rmoney.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #13)


Response to blueamy66 (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:24 PM

19. If there is nothing else available

And in many markets there is NOTHING else available, don't take the job or quit is not an option. The need to have a place to live and food to eat, etc. tends to trump that. "Quit or don't take the job" is a really insensitive statement.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:29 PM

26. You're not seeing the whole picture here.

Your rent is past due, they're about to shut off the water and electricity. You've been sneaking your trash into the apartments dumpster down the street for a month, because you couldn't pay that bill when it was due. You're existing on mostly cheap carbs and kool-aid.

You need money. Yet there's nothing out there that pays worth a damn. What do you do? Give up and live on the street, or take a crappy job and move a stranger into your place to try and get by until your lease is up?

Many people who lose their "good" jobs face exactly this decision today.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:34 PM

33. +1

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:51 PM

49. That's a temporary situation, right? This is a rough patch the person is going through?

This is not the way the person planned to spend his work life...working at a minimum wage job. So it's just temporary, and he can look for a better job to better his situation. Eventually another job will come along.

If this is his work for his adult life, he has bigger problems than working at Staples. If he learns a trade or skill, he can get a better job. And if the person is able, move to a place with more jobs.

Or.... you can wait around for someone to come along and give him money out of the goodness of his heart. But that has never happened to me. Things only got better when I learned how to do something else that paid better. And then I worked my ass off for years to save money. And I moved to a place with more jobs.

Jobs pay according to what they're worth. If a job doesn't require special training or skills or education, and a lot of people can do it, then it won't pay much. You can dislike that, but that's reality.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #49)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:07 PM

53. Actually, this is based on more than one person I know.

The scenario is a mix o them, but they are all real.

They're specialty trained, educated and had good employment. Their companies downsized and they were left scrambling for a solution. Well, one one company moved out of the city entirely.

Only one of them is hired back on full time in their field, they're making less than before and the benefits aren't comparable.

One person is driving some type of machinery at a natural gas fracking site. Pay is as good but the benefits are horrible and their family still lives here, so they only see them every two weeks now.

The last one is still applying in their field and working their crap job. Luckily they don't yet have a family.

I put an ad up for an office manager a little over two months ago. I had easily 500 applications. Many had 10+ years of experience in the field and BA's in business. It blew me away. This was a small business hiring for a basic office manager.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #53)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:17 PM

58. Are you in Texas, Lone Star? I am, too. Where in Texas is the economy that bad?

I'm in Dallas. We have high unemployment but below the nat'l avg. I thought all of Texas was doing all right. Except maybe small towns, where it's always hard to find good work. I moved to Dallas from a small Louisiana city to find a job. There just wasn't much of anything there for me. I'm so glad I left there. The economy in La., except for a few, is rotten.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #58)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:35 PM

67. This is just on the outskirts of Austin.

We have major growth here. Which brought in a lot of people from other places seeking work. Which in turn made jobs all the more coveted.

Our economy isn't what's considered bad, it's actually good. Hell, I'm doing the best I've ever done. It's just the restructuring of many of the businesses here. They changed full time to temp work. The temp agencies were fully staffed already, so the old full time employees were moved to the back of the line to wait for an opening. Or, they got a better tax break in Houston, etc., and packed up shop. We have new ones filling the void, but they're different industries which doesn't help those who lost their jobs. It's all just a day in the life anymore.

We're the lucky ones. Which really shakes my tree.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #67)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:11 PM

126. If you don't think that educated people

are not flipping burgers or working at staples you are wrong. Dead wrong.

Living wages, IE: Not being rich, not having extra. just having enough to pay the rent should be an expectation. I realize I am not going to make 100,000.00 a year at staples, but dammit they should be able to feed the family and pay for a roof over their heads. Not a pricey zip code. Just a roof.

But hey, you have a job. Stop eating. Right? Tell your kids that you have a JOB. You are not eligible for food stamps or rent help. Austin is the mot expensive Texas city to live in BTW. Guess these people should just move?

Look at the bigger picture here. That's all I am asking. Minimum wage doesn't cut it.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #126)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:57 PM

133. Did you mean to say this to me?

I think you and I are in agreement. Which is the only reason I'm asking.

Peace. I'm not being a stinker, I promise. Read my post.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #126)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 10:04 PM

142. That is not what I said. HE said there were lots of "ivy league" MBA degreed people were

more or less begging for jobs as cashiers at Target. Which I flatly do not believe. Just read the statement again.

Ivy league: Princeton, Yale, Harvard.
MBA: a Master's Degree.

I said maybe there are one or two unusual cases...young people who want to stay in a small town with their parents, and the town has no jobs for such people...but for the most part, any IVY LEAGUE degreed person, esp one with a Master's Degree, can get any number of entry jobs that pay a LOT more than a cashier at Target AND would be a springboard to a career.

It's just not true.

As for the job's wages, a job pays what it pays. How hard is it to understand that? When your plumber hands you an invoice, do you insist on paying him $50 more because you think he's underpaid, and he has five kids? When your hairdresser charges you $50 for a haircut, do you insist on paying him $75 because you think he's underpaid? (Not a tip, but regularly pay him more?)

Austin is expensive. Yes, if it were me...I would MOVE. Been there, done that.

If you can't move, and some can't, then learn to DO something. How many people think to themselves, "Now, what do I know how to do, that someone needs to be done and is willing to pay for it?" "What skill do I have?" If the answer is "none," then no matter what, things will never get much better. It doesn't help to walk around feeling sorry for yourself, even if that's warranted.

Typing, computers, landscaping, nursing, technician of computers, technician of medical equipment, paralegal, secretary,hairdresser, cosmotologist, barber, plumber, electrician ... these workers have skills. They get paid decently IF they live in a place that has jobs. If you live in a place without work, not much is gonna help you. So you either move, or you plan to stay and wait for jobs to come. I moved.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #142)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 10:22 PM

146. How do you not believe that?

Austin is a university town, one of the biggest colleges in the US. Of course there are people working in gas stations and burger joints. I am really shocked that you don't believe that! Seriously... are you crazy?

Moving isn't that easy. I would love to move to a bigger financial situation. I am an RN and I work over 45 hours a week. Do you think it would be that easy for me to pick up and just move? I know that pay is much better in other states. What do you suggest? Pack up? With what MONEY? Do you have any idea what it costs to move cross country?

How do you suggest someone DO something? get a job? Check. get one at Staples or wherever. Check. Barely pay for food for my family and a roof over my head? Check.

Now what?

Living wage. It's not that hard to understand. No one is asking for a millionaire salary. Just a fucking LIVING WAGE.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #146)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 09:13 AM

165. Yes, it's hard to change your circumstances.

Did your parents lead you to believe it's easy?

MOVE. It's hard. It takes a plan. You may have to save up money and borrow money for several years....and then move. But MOVE. If it's hard now, it'll be only harder later.

If the economy in Austin and the expense level is that bad now....it will be that way again. The economy will get better....and then it will get worse again.

Choose where you live. If you live in a non-diverse economy that has a high expense level, then you have to accept what that means and stop trying to blame someone else for that. If you want to live there because it's cool, lots of night spots, pretty, whatever, and you are willing to put up with the high expense level and the glut of workers from the local colleges, then that's your choice. It is your CHOICE.

As for me...I chose to move. Yes, it was hard. No, I didn't have much money (it doesn't take that much to move...and it is tax deductible...as we know, even poor people pay taxes).

BTW, I considered moving to Austin at one time. But I discovered what the pay was there vs. the living expense, and I decided against it, despite what a pretty area it is. My first priority was, and is, to earn a decent living. So I live in a place I'm not crazy about, but it's okay. I was very poor once, living in some pretty cool areas (I thought). I got really tired of being poor. When you're poor, you can't go out to the clubs and enjoy an area, anyway. It takes money to do a lot of things.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #165)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 10:46 AM

167. This where I have always have lived.

I'm from here. My family lives here. My Mom and Dad are getting older. I cannot just MOVE. I don't think that you are thinking in reality. Lot's of people are in this position.

Honestly, all this crap about going out to eat and clubbing is beyond me seriously.

I am talking about living wages. Not a hard concept I thought.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #49)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:50 PM

82. when the economy is no longer based on good jobs, there won't be another good one for most people

you should know that.

that's why we are trying so hard to do things that strengthen the economy and help workers get pay that allows them to be middle class.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #82)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 06:22 PM

118. How does that get done CreekDog?

I don't see the economic dynamics changing for the better.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #49)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:56 PM

140. +1

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:03 PM

52. You swipe toilet paper and light bulbs from public areas!

You visit friends at the dinner hour in the hopes of getting an invite for a meal!

In wintertime, you cut the heat down just high enough to keep the pipes from freezing, and sleep in your parka in a sleeping bag!

You try to be first in line on Food Pantry day!

Suggesting that people not take the shitty job when they are at the precipice is not realistic.

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Response to MADem (Reply #52)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:10 PM

55. No, it's not realistic.

What I want to know is how are the average non college educated people expected to survive today? I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly can't imagine being in that situation. Where this is the best you can hope for in your future.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #55)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:25 PM

61. It's always been hard for non-college educated people to get good paying jobs.

It's just much worse in a recession.

I said in another post that there are certain things, though, that they can do. They don't have to work retail, which is a lousy way to earn a living. Women can work in offices in the clerical field, if they get office skills. Men can do that, too, these days, though I guess it's harder for them to get hired at it. Office workers don't get paid a lot, but the benefits and working environment are better than retail, and you get raises and build tenure, and usu. have a retirement plan and ins. It's a decent living.

You can go to school at night and learn a trade or vocation. You can become an LPN, which requires a two year degree I think. You will never be out of work if you work in nursing. There are nurse's aids and other health care workers.

There are health care technician jobs. You go to school to learn that, but they don't require a 4 yr degree.

Things like that.

I used to work min. wage jobs, and then I thought one day, I have to do something where I get paid more! I'm soooo poor. I couldn't afford meat, much gas for my car, etc. I thought maybe a knight on a white horse would come save me, but he didn't. Oh, well.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #61)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:51 PM

72. where do you get the idea

that people can just run out and become nurses or medical technicians? Not a large number of unskilled workers are suited for it.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #72)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 12:23 AM

86. I'm a nurse. The waiting list for LPN classes was so long it was done away with. Same for RN classes

Now, you are applying for 1 of 30 spots (if you're going to community college) every quarter. You are competing with HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE for 1 of 30 spots. And if you don't get it this quarter, you apply next quarter along with the other few hundred people that are applying.

The days of walking into a school and coming out 2 years later as an RN or 1 year later as an LPN are way, way gone. WHen I got my RN I was on a wait list for 2 years....that was many years ago. There are no more wait lists. You apply, and re apply and re-apply and re-apply.

One of the schools I applied to accepted 24 students every quarter, 3 quarters a year. The year that I applied there were SEVEN HUNDRED APPLICANTS for 24 slots.

BSN (4 year programmes) are even crazier. 1 or 2 start dates a year and 15-18 students per class. And you're still competing with the same hundreds of people that are applying to the community colleges, and other BSN programs.

My husband is an RN, too. We live on the West Coast. He was applying to EVERY SCHOOL on the west coast and was moving east and applying to schools in alabama, louisianna, and florida when he got accepted out here.

OH, and don't forget the 2 years of math and biology that you have to take before you're even QUALIFIED to APPLY to the program. Cellular biology 201 and 210, Some programs require 2 Chemistries (org and inorg), Nutrition, Statistics, Math up to Calculus, Anatomy & Physiology, Several Englishes, Several humanities, Several logic & sociology classes....and that was for an ASSOCIATES DEGREE. I spent 2 years on pre-req's and another 2 years in Nursing School. I graduated in 2006. It was not easy, or cheap, or fly by night. I just finished paying off my loans this year.

To suggest "just" becoming an LPN is like suggesting one "just" become a chemical engineer....

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Response to Heddi (Reply #86)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:11 PM

90. So you agree with me...

that's it's NOT easy to become a nurse. That's what I'm saying --in response to the poster who implied that people needing a better job run out and get a nursing degree. I KNOW it's hard, and your post illustrates just how hard in these days of recession. I KNOW it takes intelligent, determined, committed people to get through a rigorous nursing or medical tech program. Nursing is NOT a job that the average unskilled worker can do--maybe, but it's certainly not a logical alternative for everyone now working at WalMart.

You & I are in agreement.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #90)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:45 PM

132. absolutely in agreement with you

and shake my head at the people who say 'oh be a nurse, that's where the jobs are' a if you can start a class tomorrow and be an RN by Monday. It's not that easy by along shot and people who suggest it is so flippantly have their head up their asses and have no understanding that things have changed in the last 20 years. My assoc degree rn education cost upwards of $30k (all loans) and took 4 full time years of 18-23 credits per quarter, start to finish. yeah, easy thing to just 'transition ' to

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Response to Heddi (Reply #86)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:45 PM

138. Well, my my my. There is absolutely NO answer for anyone to get ahead besides someone giving

the person money, is that what you're saying?

Do you realize that no matter what solution someone comes up with, you knock it down?

Where the heck do you live that life is that hard? MOVE! It's not that hard in most of the country. My niece signed up for nursing curriculum, paid her $ (grants), and went to class. It was that easy. No waiting list. She will NEVER know what it means to be unemployed. She will get paid well.

RN is a 4 year degree. Last I heard, LPN was two years. No waiting lists in Louisiana. Or here in TX, that I know of. And there are jobs waiting for you, when you get out. COME ON DOWN, as Bob Barker would say.

A person can either do something about her situation, or stay in the situation, not do anything, and complain and get depressed.

Two years of math & biology? Didn't you take that in high school? Yes, you have to take science classes for a SCIENCE degree like nursing (duh). If that's not your thing, become a lab technician or something.

LPN...I had checked into it years ago. Piece o'cake. Two years, you're out, you get a job quickly that pays decently. Lots of demand for LPNs and RNs. Hospitals, doctors offices, clinics, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, hospices, etc. I didn't go that route because I don't like the environment of ill people.

Unless I have a terminal illness, I do not accept that my circumstances cannot get better, if I don't work on improving them. But I don't expect people to give me money because I don't want to take math classes to better my situation. And that's a good thing, 'cause no one is going to.

A job pays what it pays, folks. You don't get paid more than your co-worker because your mortgage costs more than your co-worker's. It's the job that determines the wages. You determine your vocation. It's hard work. It takes a plan. And it takes time and risk.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #138)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:59 PM

157. You can get an RN in 2 or 4 years

ADN (Associate Degree Nursing) can be obtained at a community college. It is a 2 year nursing program, with 2 years of Pre-Reqs but is still considered a 2 year degree

BSN (Bachelor's Degree Nursing) is a 4 year degree obtained at a university. It is also a 2 year nursing program and 2 years of pre-req's but is considered a 4 year degree

LPN (Licensed Practical Nursing) is a 12-18 month diploma program that can be obtained at a community college with all of the same prerequisites as an ADN.

Please do not speak about things you obviously know NOTHING about.

Based on your posting history and "bootstrap" mentality, I know I'm probably wasting my time, but I'll go ahead and correct some of your very glaring misconceptions

No, high school biology and chemistry do not count, unless you were in AP Bio/Chem and got college credit for them. Anatomy and Physiology (2 separate classes, or A&P 1 A&P 2) are not taught in high school. Neither is inorganic & organic chemistry. Neither is nutrition. Neither is a class on medical terminology. Neither is microbiology.

The colleges around you have no waiting list---no shit. Most nursing programs don't anymore because people were having to be on the lists for 4-5 YEARS before they got into school

Did you not read a thing I wrote? You ONE person trying for ONE OF THIRTY SPOTS and competing with HUNDREDS OF OTHER PEOPLE who are also trying to get into ONE OF THIRTY SPOTS.

Each school requires an application fee. Each nursing program requires an additional application fee. Some even require entrance exams (for math, reading & writing proficiency, despite having passing grades in these classes) that may cost a fee. So you're looking between $100-300 in fees just to APPLY to one school. If you don't get in this quarter, you have to re-apply, and pay ANOTHER application fee.

The idea of applying to one school and hoping to get in is useless. Most people I know who went to nursing school, and who are in the process of going to school now, have applied to multiple schools and programs....5, 10. That's a lot of money and time for at shot at ONE SEAT OF THIRTY.

Not all schools have the same pre-req's. Some require Algebra II. Some require Calculus. Some don't require calculus but want Logic 109. Some don't want Logic but need 4 English classes. So you spend many quarters taking classes just to cover the different requirements for 4 different schools you're applying to. I took Nutrition and Statistics, but the program I got into didn't require them (but 2 that I applied to did require them). Of course I'm more educated for having taken them but that was also a few HUNDRED dollars in class fees and books and time driving to and from school, and time spent in class when I could have been working. All in all, I took about 7 classes that were not required for the RN program I graduated from, but were required for different programs at different schools I applied for. That's a lot of time, money, energy, driving...it's basically a quarter and a half (7 or so months) of my time that was essentially wasted because the demand for slots at nursing school is so high.

Once you get in school, you have to pay for uniforms, supplies (my stethoscope, which was required for my program, was $150), special shoes, etc.

Nursing is high demand, high pay, and there are *NOT* jobs for unexperienced new grads just ripe for the picking as there were 5 or 10 years ago. You may be able to work at a nursing home, for 1/3 the pay as a hospital RN, upon graduation but you will not be able to get into an OR, ER, or ICU preceptorship program, and most med-surg or acute care floors only want RN's who have prior healthcare experience.

Out of my original class of 30 students, do you know how many graduated with me at the end of the 2 year program?

eleven.

11 out of 30 made it through. Most dropped out because they coudln't raise kids, and work a full time job, and go to school full time, and do full time clinicals. Several failed because this is a RIGOROUS program.

You are very flippant about something that you obviously have no idea about. There are several RN's on DU that would (if they were aware of this thread) educate you just as I am doing.

Easy to pick up and move? If you don't even make a living wage, have a family, have bills, have obigations, can't make ends meet as it is, how are you going to save up $$ for a first & last month's rent & security deposit, deposit for utilities, moving truck, taking 2 or so days off (if you're moving close) for packing up and moving out??? What if you have kids in school, do you just pick up and fuck up their year by moving halfway through a school year, possibly setting them behind educationally

Does the "Nursing School Fairy" that magically makes one an LPN without any effort or prerequisite classes also put a few thousand dollars under your pillow for moving expenses??

Your posts on this subject make you appear very clueless to the realities of:
1) education in general, Nursing education specifically
2) the realities of "pick up and move"

I am not against anyone doing anything to help themselves and create a better environment for their future, but the idea that one needs "just do it" is naive and clueless to the realities of the working poor, and the issues and struggles they have with making it day to day, much less saving up hundreds, if not thousands of dollars and packing it all up and moving somewhere else....

what if somewhere else doesn't work out? Then what? Become nomads? Work just to save up for deposits and moving trucks for the next place....where you work to save up for a deposit and moving truck to the next place....etc?

I suggest you read "Nickle and Dimed". It should provide you with some insight of what it is like to be working poor, and wanting to make changes but not having the "change" in your pocket to eat, much less save for moving & school costs

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Response to Heddi (Reply #157)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 08:56 AM

164. I see I'm speaking to a wall. You don't want someone to get better...

you just want to shout ideology.

My point is:

Do SOMETHING. If nursing schools aren't a path (as they were not for me), then do something ELSE. Move (oh, you say they CAN'T). Go to a different vocational school (oh, you say they CAN'T). Get a second job (oh, you say they CAN'T). Get a different job (oh, you say they CAN'T). Can't, Can't, Can't. You are much too comfortable with that word, IMO.

But staying at Staples, which is what this thread is about, and hoping for profit sharing or significantly increased wages is a fool's game for an individual who is in a dire situation.

So you can sit there and spout your ideology. But it doesn't actually help anyone, now does it? We ALL sympathize with people in dire financial situations. I certainly have been there, as I'm sure you have. But sympathy and ideology goes only so far. It doesn't actually HELP.

Keep your "No, we can't" attitude to yourself, and quit telling people they can't do anything. I have faith in the ability of the ordinary person to do extraordinary things in extraordinarily bad situations.

Ideology is great for voting guidance. Not so great for helping people resolve a bad situation. Two different things. I mistakenly thought this thread was about HELPING people, when it seems it's only about ideology, for some.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #164)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 09:23 AM

166. Two words: Musical Chairs.


You may indeed get a seat if you scramble hard enough. But that doesn't change the fact there aren't enough jobs to go around. Period.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #61)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 12:30 AM

88. No, it hasn't always been hard. There used to be strong unions

and lots of manufacturing and production jobs for persons without higher education. Hell, many good paying union jobs went to people who didn't even have a high school diploma. I know. I was raised by one of those limited education union card holders. At the end of his career he had four weeks of paid vacation, ten paid holidays, ten sick days, health insurance with no co-pay, short and long term disability, shift differentials and double pay for working holidays plus he received a sizeable pension when he retired. He wasn't unusual for his generation. My father-in-law and most of my uncles had similar deals.



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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #88)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:49 PM

139. Only if you live in a place with large employers, like factories. It has ALWAYS been hard for

non-college educated people to get jobs that pay well.

There are exceptions even now, and there were then. But it has always been the case that college degreed workers get paid more. They still do. They also have an easier time of it to find work. Even now. The unemployment rate for college degreed people is about 4%. For non-college degreed, it's over the national average. For workers w/o high school, the unemployment rate is through the roof.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #139)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 01:58 PM

168. No, it hasn't *always" been hard, and union jobs could be had in the teamsters, on railroads, etc

and even smallish towns often had a factory with better wages than today's part time service work for much of the twentieth century. What's happened in the last few decades is that we've gone back to a situation more similar to the nineteenth century.

eta: we also have a lot more college grads and the days of a college degree paying off immediately are gone.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #61)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:47 PM

97. bullshit. my millworker uncle & his non-working wife supported 5 kids & bought a new car

 

every couple years, as did their peers.

orwellian, revisionist history. 'it's always been like this'.

no, it hasn't.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #97)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 06:28 PM

120. Before the 1970s life for working people was better

Everybody over 55-60 remembers when one person with a skill could support a family and even put away some savings, take an annual vacation and such.

In the 1980s manufacturing was offshored and unions were busted.

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Response to Mimosa (Reply #120)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 07:54 PM

122. it has gotten worse since reagan, immeasurably. at the time you thought it was temporary &

 

kept waiting for 'normal' to come back.

it's never come back, just gotten worse, little by little, boiling the frog.

to the point now where 'democrats' are mouthing republican platitudes & telling people "it was always like this".

bullshit, a hundred times bullshit. you could have a somewhat respectable life even on minimum wage in the late 60s/early 70s.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #97)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 10:11 PM

144. Your uncle was lucky enough to live in an area with a mill. You're thinking every place is like

where YOU live. It's not.

The stats say it all. Non-college degreed people have historically had a harder time finding decent paying jobs, and they got paid less than college degreed. They had higher unemployment. People with no high school had it even harder than those with high school.

It is the same today. It is worse these days because of the rise of technology, outsourcing, the recession. But it was always that way.

I'm talking about stats. Not your one case that you know of.

I can tell someone that stats show that Honda cars are more reliable than Chevys...but there will always be someone who knows someone whose Chevy ran 10 years without needing one repair, while the Honda they had was constantly breaking down.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #144)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:03 AM

160. no, it's you who doesn't get it. you want to talk statistics?

 

Last edited Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:39 AM - Edit history (1)



WAGE SHARE OF GDP




MINIMUM WAGE AS A PERCENT OF POVERTY LEVEL FOR A FAMILY OF FOUR




PER CAPITA GDP V. MEDIAN FAMILY INCOME

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #160)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 08:46 AM

163. I'm sorry...I don't see the chart comparing college degreed w/those w/no ed.

Did your mind wander and lose track of what my post was saying?

All I did....which got your dander up...was point out that EVEN THOUGH THINGS ARE WORSE NOW BECAUSE OF OUTSOURCING, RECESSION, AND TECHNOLOGY, it has always been the case that:

college-degreed workers have lower unemployment and higher wages, as a group, than non-educated workers.

I will await your chart showing that throughout history in our country, non-educated workers have had the same or lower unemployer and the same or higher wages than educated workers.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #163)

Mon Sep 3, 2012, 03:46 AM

171. You didn't say "it's always been harder for non-college than college-educated." You said:

 

"It's always been hard for non-college educated people to get good paying jobs."

They don't mean the same thing, for all that you may think they do.

If unemployment overally is 2% -- 1% for college-educated & 3% for non-college -- it's harder for non-college than college, but it's not "hard" in any absolute sense, to find a job.


That's why the statistics I posted showing the decline in the share of income going to labor, and the decline in the value of the minimum wage, and the decline in median family income relative to gdp are absolutely more relevant than anything you posted or any of your apologetics.


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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #61)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:47 PM

99. Now it's hard for college grads to get jobs - is the answer more education???

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #61)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 10:07 PM

143. I had a two year degree.

I once thought it would help me earn a living wage. To be honest, it did. Once.

I now have a four year degree and am still taking classes to diversify my skills. It's time consuming. I'm long past my majority, and I'm still in school. Why? Because the bar keeps getting higher to make a living.

I'm fine. I save every penny I can and reinvest it into my education. Right now I'm fine. However, I'm currently a small business owner, this means I'm not putting away what I should for my age for retirement. I won't be able to retire. That's my reality.

What do I do, stop trying to make sure I'm employable if/when I'm back on the hunt for a job? Or focus on my retirement?

My financial adviser is stumped on what I should do, beyond keeping my interest below inflation. Maybe you know?

I am what used to be the middle class. I'm currently making a living wage, but I'm locked into either working for the rest of my days or facing poverty in my retirement.

I don't know what to do.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #55)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:31 PM

63. The only way IT was possible was by

 

manufacturing jobs , textile industries , chemical industries , glass manufactures . etc

My father was able to support and raise a family working as Teamster in the textile industry being a machine operator.

Those jobs have left the country and are never coming back.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #55)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:33 PM

65. They have to take what they can get and hope for better days. Even if it's that shitty Staples job

on weekdays, and part time security guard at the weekend, or whatever one can do.

It sucks, but until we get a Democratic House that will stop putting up roadblocks to stimulus job creation bills, we'll never see any real help. We need some serious short-term government help that includes training for the non-college people. Right now, the non-college kids are competing with college grads for jobs that normally would not be filled by college grads.

It's a hard, hard world out there right now. We need a Democratic Congress to help things along.

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Response to MADem (Reply #65)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:15 PM

91. +++++

Amen

We need a Dem Congress...maybe some things can get done.

But the way things see-saw in this country, all their positive gains would soon be plowed under. Look at VA and NC--being dragged back to the Stone Age with breathtaking speed.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #26)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:33 PM

129. Okay, so we finally get to go home tomorrow after being in free hotel rooms for 4 nights cause

our power was cut off for non-payment. My fiance's brother just paid the bill. We have free rooms because of my fiance's job and the amount of travel he does. Otherwise, we'd be....who the fuck knows.....

I lost my job a few months ago and my fiance has been on unpaid medical leave for the last 3 months. He gets released next week and will start getting a paycheck.

I would take any job right now.

Don't preach to me about what I posted. This has been the worst week of our lives.

My Dad told me not to quit AT&T, cause of the bennies and pension and 401k. Dumbass that I was, I quit anyway, thinking I would reach the stars. Yeah, right.

So, I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings....I'm just a bit raw right now.....

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #129)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:42 PM

131. Hey, why don't you just go get a job

working at McDonalds or Staples?

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #131)


Response to Texasgal (Reply #131)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:08 AM

161. +1

And look at how that suggestion got treated...good enough for everyone else but not enough for blueamy...

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #129)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:04 PM

134. I'm not in the least bit upset with you.

I hope I didn't come off as if I was. It wasn't my intention.

I was just pointing out how flawed I saw your comment to be. Which doesn't mean I'm finding you, personally flawed.

For the most part I try to treat people as I'd want to be treated. I've said some amazingly flawed things in the past. Who hasn't?

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #26)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 10:47 PM

147. +1

Being one of those people, I say thank you.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #7)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:44 PM

96. the big tent of the new democratic party

 

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #7)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:53 PM

102. So what you want is a minimum wage world and we should all set back and take the kind of business

that rmoney sets up for us to work in? He started this business while he was shutting the good paying ones down. You want us to quit fighting for good paying jobs?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #7)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:17 PM

128. You would fit rignt in

during the Gilded Age, or for that matter, in Bain Capital. It is the same damn attitude.

No, I want service workers to ORGANIZE and strike. But that would not be proper, right?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:00 AM

158. Did his friend pass up a job as lead curator at the Smithsonian?

What the heck job is he supposed to get? Do you really think he has the option for anything else? It's not like someone would purposely and knowingly take a crappy minimum wage job when there's better options.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:18 PM

10. Some people are clueless as to how hard good jobs are to find.

I work in retail and we get many applicants with college degrees and professional experience in numerous fields looking for anything they can get. They have no choice, unless you consider not making money at all a choice.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #2)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:58 PM

141. +1,000

Telling the truth

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:15 PM

3. Are you serious?

Must be nice to be someone who can just quit a job!

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:21 PM

14. Maybe they shouldn't have accepted the job in the first place.

Were they misinformed?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:24 PM

20. Uhhh...maybe they need to feed their family?

Are you crazy?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:25 PM

21. Thank God we have minimum wage laws.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:32 PM

29. do you not get it?

when there are no other fucking jobs available.. they have to take what is offered to them. A crappy job with crappy or no bennies is better than no job.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:15 PM

4. when it's the only job available to you

you have no choice but to take it. A crappy job is better than no job at all.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:22 PM

16. For Christ sakes, you don't get it, do you.

Staples isn't the only company doing this shit. In retail, they all do it. In the service industry, they all do it. In case you haven't noticed, for a HS grad, that's about the extent of opportunity. Hell! Too damned many college grads are working at fucking Staples, because that's the extent of opportunities these days. What the fuck do you do with a BA in English if you didn't get an education endorsement? How about a bachelors in almost any field?

There are probably many MS and PhDs waiting tables.

Your response is off the rails.

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Response to longship (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:52 PM

83. no, that poster doesn't get it, they post conservative crap all the time

it's horrifying, but i wish i could say it was surprising.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:46 PM

46. What a horrible post.

 

The point is: you can't live off what Staples pays.

Hear that "swoosh" sound? That's the point of the thread going over your head.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:35 PM

66. Surprise Surprise

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #66)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:59 PM

74. +1 n/t

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:39 PM

68. Oh gods.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:29 PM

77. considering how much you complain about things here, and *children* chief among them...

don't even give anybody else a hard time for complaining about something they don't like.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #77)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:59 PM

105. Funny That She Stays Given She So Dislikes So Much Of What DU Has To Say

I find that peculiar

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:53 AM

89. I had no idea you had an account on DU, Mrs. Romney.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:29 PM

93. "Big tent".

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:38 PM

94. Right, because demanding more is for Martians only.

And 'socialists'.

Glad I wasn't raised as your brother.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:53 PM

103. Channeling Ann Romney?

Must be...because nobody on DU would actually be that....well for lack of a better word...REPUBLICAN.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:46 PM

114. Free Republic is thataway >>>>>>>>>>>

I don't say this casually, but rather after evaluating all your posts on this thread.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:09 AM

162. Not so smug now, huh?

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Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:15 PM

5. Bix Box stores are turning ALL retailing jobs into crap... UNIONS are the only answer.


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Response to reformist2 (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:18 PM

9. Precisely

Retail has been and always will be hard work. As you have stated so well, the big box format is just another part of the race to the bottom.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:20 PM

12. unions? I worked at AT&T for 10 years.

the workers went on strike because instead of paying $0 per month for health insurance with a $5 copay, they were asked to pay $10 per month with the same copay......I called BS....they should have been thrilled for what they got

come on people.....let's be reasonable

how are business owners to make money?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:26 PM

23. If you look at the balance sheets of any of the big box stores

You will see that they are not hurting. Cut CEO and executive pay, if profitability is an issue.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #23)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:33 PM

30. Staples: $920 million profit. 51,000 employees. You do the math.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #30)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:35 PM

35. I know!

Preaching to the choir!

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #35)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:39 PM

38. With the internet, I am amazed we haven't seen a revival of unionization yet.


It would be SO easy to organize overnight strikes. Management would have no chance to hire scabs.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #38)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:41 PM

41. I agree

It is sad how easy it would be to organize, but how few people are motivated.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #41)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:09 PM

125. 40 years of people like that poster saying "it's your own fault! pick yourself up by your boot-

 

straps and get a better job! stop whining!"

when they're not saying: "take a job at staples and get off your unemployed ass!"

it's never the system, it's always that the individual is somehow defective. 40 years with that, always in the background. it affects people's psyches.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:33 PM

31. "They should've been happy with what they got."

I've really only heard that from anti-union right-wing assholes before. Surprised to hear it from a fellow liberal.

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Response to Robb (Reply #31)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:37 PM

37. My guess is this one is not a fellow liberal.

But it is just a guess.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:35 PM

36. "How are business owners to make money?"

AT&T Chairman Randall L. Stephenson's 2010 compensation: $20,245,451

Staples CEO Ronald L. Sargent's latest known yearly compensation: $19,600,000

Starving Haitian children...union-busting corporate CEO's? Like yourself, I simply can't tell the difference between the two.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #36)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:41 PM

42. LOL - I can't believe someone actually posted that!

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:50 PM

48. Let's talk reasonably about unions. I'm down with that.

A union gives you not only arbitration rights as an employee, but it can guarantee you the same payscale when you move from one employer to another. Providing you the flexibility to not have to work for an oppressive corporation, as mentioned in the OP, but rather the ability to make a living wage someplace else.

Something most Americans don't have anymore thanks to anti-union sentiment.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:26 PM

76. anti union too?

wow. we really hit the jackpot with you.

and here i thought the anti immigrant and anti women stuff was the end of it.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #12)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:12 PM

108. Those big corporations make LOTS of money. But it's nice to know you are so supportive of them in

their efforts to make even more.

You seem much more supportive of Republican views than Democratic ones. Why is that, I wonder?????? And you live in AZ. I guess it's well suited to you.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #12)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:46 PM

156. I good question for you.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:17 PM

8. few working at any store make a living wage

...and a very large portion of our country does just that. Now, what consequences do you suppose that will have on our society, our politics, our economy, our country, etc.?

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #8)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:50 PM

100. Which is sad, growing up, our next door neighbor was Produce Manager at a local Safeway.

Not a hard job, or a particularly skilled job, but a necessary job for the store - examining, accepting, and pricing the produce coming into the store, keeping track of stock and manging the stockers, ensuring the scales were working properly and there were sufficient bags, handling gear, and customer assistance items on hand, and doing a several-times daily sweep of the aisles to ensure the temperature was correct, there was nothing going bad and that the produce remained as fresh and clean as it could be. Nothing that required more than a high school science and math background and common sense.
This was in California, late 1960s (pre-prop-13). They owned the post WWII house, so he probably got it on the GI bill. His wife stayed at home and raised the kids I played with daily. In fact, she "babysat" me and my pre-school aged brother when I came home from school with her kids for an hour or so because both Mom and Dad worked - I don't know what arrangement my parents made with her to do this - it couldn't have been very expensive because we had very little money.
There were no signs of any financial stress in that house - so it was a good-paying job for the area. A job this man could retire from, if he didn't want to apply for Store manager or franchise ownership. A job he could train his head stocker to take over, if he wanted to leave and promote the guy.
In fact, when I graduated from high school, my friend, who had been working at an Albertsons as a cashier since she was 15, got herself promoted to a head-cashier's position and was able to move into her own one-bedroom apartment, furnish it to her liking, and still make enough to go to college and pay utilities without any room-mate or help from her folks. $8.00 an hour in 1977 with some benefits - that was damn good money - for a head cashier.
Nowdays, head cashiers may make a bit more, but it does not go very far, and is certainly not able to prosper on work that the companies that employ them needs them to do to remain profitable in that community.

WalMarts continue to close because the communities whose standards of living dropped as living-wage retail jobs disappeared (because the WalMart moved in) no longer has the income base to support them.
Its a vicious downward cycle in big-box retail - if you retain low or stagnent wages at your store (the "since it's just any old warm body doing the work, why should we pay more than minimum wage?" view of employment...), you cut into the incomes of your customer base as your employees are not able to purchase much of your product - no matter how "low" the prices are. Couple that to driving all local competition from your area, -further reducing local customer income base as higher-wage retail jobs disappeared, and you begin to not be able to sustain a profit margin.
If you required the community give you tax breaks to get a foothold into that community, that very lack of tax revenue impacts jobs and wages of the community government/contracted service workers, which again, cuts into the income of your customer base and decreases their spending capability which is the whole basis of your profits.
A smaller business family business model might be able to regroup within a recession by spreading out losses and sharing resources, but if your business is built on a insular corporate structure / shareholder profit model, you have to leave an area where you don't have enough customers to maintain profitability.


Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #100)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:02 PM

107. Thank you - it's anecdotes like this which show how far we've fallen.


I don't believe the statistics.... Our standard of living has *not* risen over the past 40 years. It hasn't even stayed flat.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:20 PM

11. Gripe, gripe, gripe! He got a discount on paper clips didn't he?

What more do you people want?

JIK -

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:22 PM

17. I would like a nice job with decent bennies

paper clips? really?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #17)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:31 PM

28. Yep. Really.

Most retail jobs today treat the crappy little discount they give you as an actual "perk" of employment.

What they're forgetting is it takes disposable income to purchase what they sell. Something most of their employees don't have.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:22 PM

15. I just checked, Staples has a profit of $920 million. If just 50% was shared by employees...

...that would mean $10,000 more income per year per worker.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:23 PM

18. Was that profit sharing offered when the job was offered?

Was it something that each and every employee agreed to?

Shit, people shouldn't expect to be paid just because.....

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:26 PM

22. Profits will be shared, once they unionize!


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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:26 PM

25. How about a living WAGE?

Is that so far off your thought process?

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:30 PM

98. WHAT is WRONG with you?

Man, when the job was offered maybe that was all he could find.
What you are I wont say.
But, just imagine.

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:14 PM

109. Just because.......what? Just because they WORK? Just because they are the means by which the

board members become even more wealthy than they already are??

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Response to blueamy66 (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:00 PM

124. Just because they made the business profitable?

You might think you are immune from the problems that other working class folks have, until you realize that if they'll do that job for $8 per hour, they'll be ecstatic to take your job for $10.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:39 PM

39. Why should employees get a share of the co profits? I mean, on what basis.

Just curious.

I've heard of profit sharing as a benefit...like a 401k. But as part of wages, I haven't heard of that and don't understand the reasoning for thinking that. It doesn't sound fair to me. I mean, employees doing a certain job, earn a certain wage. Anyone who wants to be guaranteed profits can open his own business, which means risking not getting any income, working 12 hour days without seeing good income sometimes, risking losing his savings he sunk into the business, and all the other things that go into opening and running a business. But if you're a stock person, you show up at a certain time, do your job, the job doesn't require an education or special skills so it pays a low wage, you get your money, you go home & don't worry about how the business is doing as long as it stays open so you keep your job.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #39)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:43 PM

44. Profit sharing gives everyone a stake in how the company does

Employees are more motivated to perform well if they have an actual stake in the company's success.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #44)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:33 PM

137. There are companies that do that...I know of them as retirement plans.

Also called profit sharing plans, 401ks.

So...a person can look or strive to work at a company that provides a retirement plan (or profit sharing plan or whatever you want to call it).

But the reality is...you have to work somewhere for some years for that to really amount to anything. That's why it's for retirement. And you invest it, so it makes money.

I used to have one. I never connected it to profits...it was always a retirement plan or bonus thing, is how we, the employees thought of it.

An employee is just not going to think of the business in the same way that an owner is. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not his business.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #39)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:40 PM

130. The only people making money are the big

corporations. Do you not see something wrong with that?

Minimum wage is not enough to live in this economy. I am all for people working hard and doing what they need to to get by, I do. I work my ass off all week long! I pay my bills barely, and I am degreed and work in a profession. I cannot imagine having to take a job at some big ass corporation and then not be able to feed my kids...and then not be able to qualify for any help because i have a job with a BIG ASS CORP that doesn't pay living wages!

Don't you see what's wrong with that?

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #130)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:30 PM

135. That's not what my post was about at all. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #135)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 09:33 PM

136. Okay, I am willing to understand.

What was it about?

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:41 PM

40. That's the maximum possible?

I am not impressed.

Their maximum wage is gross less than $12K annually. Staples doesn't nearly double those people's wages with profit sharing. Your calculation assumes they distribute all their gross profits to their employees. Big mistake there.

The people working in those stores don't see much of anything, in the real world.

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Response to longship (Reply #40)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:54 PM

50. Their wages could be $10,000 higher, and Staples would still be hugely profitable.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:26 PM

24. Profit sharing

 

If a company makes money there should be a formula that pays profit sharing.
On the same note if there is no profit for a quarter would you be willing to not receive a paycheck?

When I had a small pizza house. I worked many of weeks without taking anything out for a paycheck.

But I always made sure my employees were paid on time.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:34 PM

32. Obviously, minimum-wage laws protect against no paycheck. But treat profit-sharing as a bonus.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:43 PM

43. Depends

 

A company can hire you as a sub contractor.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #43)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:26 PM

92. Only under certain rather limited conditions.. n/t

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Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:35 PM

34. That co. isn't doing well, I think. Those employees need to look elsewhere. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #34)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:48 PM

47. Retail

Low paying work across the board (with the exception of places like Costco). You pretty much have to suck up a physically taxing job, deal with difficult managers, and customers who demand everything just short of you licking their shoes, and endure it all with a smile for $7.50 an hour.

And pretty much all retail employers are the same. So even if Staples is not doing well and Office Depot is, the actual job will be the same drudgery for low pay. So the "look elsewhere" advice is really tin-eared.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #47)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:11 PM

56. Then the workers need to change vocations. If everyone changed....

to do something else, things would get better for the retail workers.

I've heard retail sucks. My sister used to do it. It's good for college and young people, and retirees. But not a great way for an adult to build a future and get good health care and retirement benefits.

Women can learn office skills and get clerical jobs. Men, too. Better than retail. And you can work in any industry that has an office.

My brother worked his adult life at a Conoco plant. Excellent pay, wonderful benefits. Loooooong hours, graveyard shifts, difficult supervisors, treat you like a piece of meat...but the pay is great. No education past high school required. He retired before 60.

I used to work min. wage jobs. I went to paralegal school (I have some college, but dropped out). I became a paralegal and entered a world of expendable income with benefits and nice working environment.

But min wage jobs are good when you're young. They let you do different schedules so you can go to school, stay out late partying, etc.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #56)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:16 PM

57. I know someone who works in HR at a Target Store

Applicants with MBAs from Ivy League colleges are applying for cashier positions. I wish I were joking about this. So the "apply elsewhere" advice is really insensitive and downright subhuman.

The corporatists have off-shored all the well paying positions, and we are stuck with the low-ball service sector jobs here. Land of opportunity my fat ugly ass.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #57)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:33 PM

64. I don't believe that, actually.

I don't believe someone with an MBA from Yale is applying for a cashier's job at Target. Unless they've decided just to stay around that area to wait for the economy to improve.

But someone with an MBA from Yale can move to the right city and get a job. What, I don't know. I don't know what people with MBAs do. I'm a college dropout. Maybe the problem is the MBA? You sort of have to know how to DO something, don't you? What did people with MBAs do before the recession, I wonder?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #64)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:47 PM

71. You can choose not to believe it

I know my friend and I know she does not lie or exaggerate. Her store has had many overqualified people applying for cashier positions.

Thing is, you have to have money to be able to pack up and move. And if each MBA level job has 500 applicants for it, what are your odds of obtaining and retaining employment? Not very good. So you take the jobs that are available.

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #71)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:42 PM

80. Where is that happening? And what did people w/MBAs do before the recession? nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #64)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:56 PM

73. Stop bashing people and realize there aren't enough good paying jobs to go around.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #73)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:34 PM

78. Stop bashing people and realize that you didn't answer the question.

What do people with MBAs do for a first job after graduating from Yale or Princeton or Harvard? What did they do before the recession? I really don't know.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #64)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:13 PM

75. They certainly are

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #75)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:34 PM

79. Where? nt

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #57)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 12:01 AM

159. funny - I posted about a 70-80k office job with great benefits here 6 mos ago

It was on monster, the company website, a couple of functional-specific websites too. Not one Ivy League MBA applied for that. Wonder why they prefer being a Target cashier to something that required only basic manufacturing knowledge, good analytical ability and any degree, and paid 4 times more. Didn't even need to wear a red shirt.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #56)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:21 PM

60. where do you live

where do you live that you, as a paralegal, have a 'world of expendable income?'

where do you live that min wage jobs can let you pay for school?

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Response to dhol82 (Reply #60)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:43 PM

70. I live in Dallas.

Anyone working in an office in a professional field will have expendable income. Even the records clerks and mail room clerks. As well as insurance, vacation, and a 401K. Maybe not a LOT of expendable income, and esp not at first. But you work at it a few years, and things snowball.

If someone learns a vocation in the health care field, he or she will almost certainly never be w/out employment. The pay isn't great, but the benefits are, I hear.

My niece tried her hand at different things, after dropping out of college. Banking (the pay is HORRIBLE), sales. She is back in college now to get a nursing degree. As a nurse, she will NEVER be unemployed and can move anywhere in the country and get a job immediately. Her pay will be great, as will the benefits.

Where do young people usu. get money to pay for school? They save up for it or borrow it from their parents, and/or apply for grants. My sister got thru college on grants, w/help from my mother. As for me, I borrowed the $ for my vocation school from my Mom. I paid her back monthly after I got a job.

Yeah, it's best to start all this stuff when you're in your teens and still living at home. But hey, some of us screw up and screw around and get started late.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #70)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:58 PM

104. where do people get money? lots of them don't get enough and live in poverty

you write as though every working person, or person who wants to work has money, when a large amount of people live in poverty, or are homeless or lack healthcare, or aren't in university because they lack the money to go, or have to work full time or both.

you're just glossing over massive levels of poverty for a nation of our wealth --it's unheard of among our peer nations.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #104)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:42 PM

113. You don't understand. In this thread we have a Texas conservative and an Arizona conservative,

both making really cold, insensitive statements about people struggling to make ends meet.

Not everyone on DU is liberal. Some of them manage to stay here for a long time because they hold one or two liberal views. But you need to understand what they are really about, and that they do not give a rat's ass about the working poor or unemployed, or anyone else, for that matter, other than their corporate masters.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #113)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:54 PM

115. Yep

Exactly.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #113)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:00 PM

123. I really hope you are not speaking about me.

I hold NO republican values.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #123)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:46 PM

155. I'm not.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #113)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 10:47 PM

148. I am neither cold nor insensitive. I have been homeless myself...

on my own at 17, right outta high school. Working min. wage jobs. I've been there, done that, as they say.

I know what I'm talking about. And I AM liberal.

I believe in Obamacare, esp to help the working poor (like those working min wage). I wish we had single payer (but we don't).

But I believe in a person proactively doing something to learn a skill or something for a living, instead of waiting for a savior. As I learned the hard way, if you don't have a skill or vocation or profession, it will always be a tough row to hoe.

Soooo...it's great to sympathize and empathize...but for someone's situation to get better, he/she really has to DO something about it. And that something may be very hard to do.

All the way from crying in hte parking lot of KMart because I didn't have $5 to pay for anything for Christmas, to being in my 50's, debt free, with my own home and car....it's taken years. But I wouldn't have gotten past the min. wage jobs and bettered my situation if I had stayed there and waited for a knight on a white horse. There is no knight in shining armor. YOU have to do it. It may be hard, probably will be.

For anyone reading, who reads the "No, we can't" responses to any and all suggestions to improve a person's situation, remember that you CAN. It starts with a plan, a first step. One day at a time.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #113)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:33 PM

153. When you address me, you are speaking to the working poor, the homeless, the uninsured...

all these things I have been. I know more than most what it means to be poor.

You do no one a service by encouraging him to accept his situation and not at least try to improve it. Do you want people to be unhappy and feel undeserving? Do you really believe other people are too stupid to do better? I don't.

I care a lot about people who are in the situation I was once in. If I had listened to "NO YOU CAN'T" people like you, I'd still be there.

People laughed at me...a group of people literally laughed at me...when I told them I was going to go to my vocation school. They thought it sounded pie in the sky. It hurt me deeply. They were people like you. Who thought I couldn't make something out of it. I went to my little vocation school, anyway. And I moved to a place with a diverse economy (far, far away from those people who laughed at me). I got a good job and probably ended up getting paid more than most of those who had laughed at me.

I am FOR Obamacare, FOR Social Security, FOR Medicare, FOR food stamps and welfare, FOR a min. wage, FOR single payer health care. But a person in a bad situation needs more than that. It will never get much better, even with all that, without a skill or vocation or living in a place with a diverse economy and public transportation. That's reality.

You are the one who really doesn't give a rat's ass about the people in trouble. If you did, you wouldn't tell them they can't get do anything to help themselves.

Hope, yes. But try to do something while you hope. There certainly is no harm in it. And who knows? Maybe the person's situation WILL get better because of it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #104)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 10:18 PM

145. My sister is in a nursing home on Medicaid, having had a stroke at a young age.

So...your point is...what?

Oh, and she got through college on grants, after the age of 30. She moved in with my mom to afford it. So she did have help in that respect. But mom had to take her in...she couldn't earn a living and would've been homeless. It was only then that she decided to go back to college.

My point was simple: the people mentioned are working at Staples. They don't think Staples pays enough. My point is...they can either stay around and complain about it (it's not going to get better...we all know that), OR they can work out a plan and DO something.

The plan might be to stay there for a while, and then move, or the plan might be to go to school at night for five years, or the plan might be to become a supervisor at Staples, or the plan might be to work at a min. wage job somewhere else and see if things are better there.

But to expect something to be what it's not doesn't make sense to me. A min. wage job is what it is.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #104)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:05 PM

150. Do you want the people's situation to get better, or not?

I sympathize. I get it. I was homeless myself for a short while years ago. I'll stack my hardships up against anyone else's at any time.

But we're talking about people working at Staples who want profit sharing because they don't think min. wage is enough...and yet they have min. wage jobs.

There ARE ways out of that situation. It's not easy. It's not fast. It's not slick. But you either stay where you are and suffer, or you work out a way out of it. That's my point.

I do my best to get out of a situation. It starts with a plan.

As for money...my sister went to college on grants. It's important that Republicans not get into office any more than they are, because they want to do away with grants, one of the most important ways to get an education and get out of poverty.

We are in a dire situation in our country. All the more reason to consider moving. That's when I moved to Dallas from Louisiana years ago. The 1980's recession. About 30% unemployment where I was. I researched (no internet...I had to go to the library on weekends) the closest big city to move to that had the lowest unemployment and the highest wages for what I did (I had just finished school, learning a SKILL). I moved to Dallas.

I worked at the time. I got paid about $20,000 a year (and had to support a deadbeat husband). I sent out letters for interviews ahead of time, then paid for a trip to Dallas for two interviews. I got an offer from both. I drove back to L.C. (I had stayed in a seedy motel...I was upset I had to pay $5 to park for one of the interviews! It took $5 out of my food allowance.) I accepted one of the offers. We divided up what money we had. I got a u-haul, packed my sstuff, left my deadbeat husband (who MIRACULOUSLY FOUND EMPLOYMENT AFTER I LEFT..isn't that a coincidence?), and drove to Dallas, rented an apt, and that was that.

It didn't cost that much for the move. I drove there several times, so there was gas, the motel charges, a small food allowance (I bought food at convenience stores), then the $ to rent a cheap apt in a not so safe part of town.

It was so hard. I can't believe I did it. Oh, and I was pregnant at the time. Had the miscarriage on the bus home from work in Dallas late at night, alone. Got chewed out by the boss for missing work the next day.

Now I'm in my 50's, own my own home & car, am completely debt free, with a 401k and emergency savings. I don't spend $ on vacations or fancy things. But I do okay. Moving was the best thing I ever did. The economy where I come from STILL sucks. But I've been continuously employed here, in my chosen field. Good, diverse economy here. I work my butt off, but enjoy my work.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #56)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:50 PM

81. Most fields and schools are flooded

Legal field is flooded. IT field is flooded/outsourced as is manufacturing. Engineering isnt good either. I know a few recent engineering grads doing bartending. Teaching also not the greatest with a lot of places having tight budgets.

Healthcare professions are really the only thing open at the moment. But most schools are now becoming limited access because they are being flooded with applicants and don't have enough spots. Yes there is lots of demand for these workers, but getting into a school and getting financed with sky high tuitions is not easy anymore.

The reality is, that you didnt need to go through all this just to make a decent wage 20-30 years ago. Most people didnt go to college back in the day yet they still could easily pay the bills. Now you can't.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #81)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 12:21 AM

85. +1

"The reality is, that you didnt need to go through all this just to make a decent wage 20-30 years"


This is the point and it seems to escape a few people here. I see the RW talking points, pull yourself up by the bootstraps crap. The jobs just are not there. The middle class is shrinking and telling everyone to just learn a trade or get a degree and everything will be fine is simply not true. The percentage of living wage jobs is much lower than it used to be and it takes more than a "just quit and do something else" attitude to fix it.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #85)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:17 PM

152. Nothing is ever "fine" in the short term. It takes years. It's not RW to DO something

to make yourself happy.

If you want someone to do better financially, be happy, or be healthy...whatever, it's one thing to sympathize, but it's another thing to encourage them to stay the way they are and just wait for someone else to fix their situation. My experience has been...that ain't gonna happen.

Yes, we're in a recession. Yes, times are tough (boy, don't I know it), but let's also accept the fact that a lot of times, SOMETHING can be done, or that sometimes, the people have chosen the wrong vocation. It DOES help to be in the right field at any time, but esp in hard times.

You can Google the different fields and see that some fields are more active than others.

If you don't care that someone's situation get better, then by all means, encourage him to stay at Staples and pray that a company will willingly greatly increase wages for non-skilled jobs. At least you'll be feeling sorry for him. And that's what counts, right?

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #81)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:10 PM

151. We just hired several paralegals and a secretary. Jobs are hoppin' here in Dallas.

IF you have experience and a good work history. You may not get paid tons (they're taking advantage of the recession), but the pay is decent, with ins., 401k, perks, nice working atmosphere, housing prices aren't bad, lots of places to shop for cheap clothing and food and household supplies (lots of retail competition here...no need to pay full retail, unless you want an Apple product).

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #151)

Mon Sep 3, 2012, 03:59 AM

172. But that is part of the problem...it's a catch-22

You can't get a good job without experience and can't get experience without the job. Companies don't train anymore. Many do not even hire from within anymore. They headhunt. It's one reason the middle class wages are stagnant. Many, many people out there are treading water in dead end jobs.

And if you are unemployed, you are really in trouble. A lot of companies will immediately toss away resumes of people who are unemployed regardless of experience.
A lot of people can't move to where jobs are at either. They are stuck in their underwater mortgage.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:45 PM

45. Damn! This thread brought 'em out the woodwork! Nt

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Response to xchrom (Reply #45)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:58 PM

51. Thanks, xchrom.

Some of us long term DUers know the routine here. Some see just the forest; some see all the trees and everything tween.

My friend has stories about the real Staples, not the cartoon visage portrayed by people who've not experienced working for retail or service industries in the US.

I generally do not alert at DU. I would prefer that some DUers would respectively take on offending posts head on. These are the threads which test that restraint.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #45)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:08 PM

54. I used some of the responses, starting with the very first, to tune up and

 

update my Ignore list.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #54)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 08:15 PM

127. Same here!

(But maybe you won't see this.)

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Response to xchrom (Reply #45)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:18 PM

59. Shaking my head here

Can they possibly be at the correct website with that crap?

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #59)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:28 PM

62. Shocking.

Seriously shocking.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #45)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:42 PM

69. +1000

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Response to xchrom (Reply #45)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:57 PM

84. one wonders why they spend so much time with us when it's clear they don't think much of us

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Response to xchrom (Reply #45)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:01 PM

106. Yeah, she's definitely a freeper.

+1000

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 12:29 AM

87. I get so furious every time I hear a Republican claim

that if you force them to raise minimum wage they will just cut jobs. They dare stand up there and give those speeches about wanting to help the poor and the middle class to not be dependent on the government but they refuse to pay people a living wage so they can be self sufficient. They could pay their CEOs a little less, and the hundreds of vps and directors that most corporations have. They could pay them just a little bit less so they could pay their minimum wage workers a living wage. Will they ever do that? Hell no.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #87)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:41 PM

95. Corporations have record profits. They can afford to give their peon employees raises.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 03:52 PM

101. .

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:15 PM

110. It's the OWNERS who deserve all the money! The OWNERS!

The people who sit in padded chairs under air conditioners planning their weekend golf trip!

Not the little people who do all the work! They don't deserve anything!



But seriously, the garbage pickup guy came by a few minutes ago and it's hot and it smells and I couldn't help but think that if anybody deserves a 6- or 7-figure salary it's THAT GUY and not some useless vultures in padded chairs.

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Response to moondust (Reply #110)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 04:28 PM

111. So true. The more you think about what ordinary people do, the more equal you want pay to be.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 06:07 PM

116. Employment income is "three legged" - Entrepreneurship, Private Sector, Public Sector -

(Sorry, I've just gone back to University to get a BS in Business, and I've been doing a lot of research working on what I'll need for my Capstone presentation...)

When someone emerges from childhood dependency and does not have Capital already in place from a trust fund, bequest, supplement, or inheritance to get them going, they need to start out with income wages.

There are three ways to earn income wages - Entrepreneurship, Private sector Jobs, and Public Sector Jobs.
Entrepreneurship is a "venture" - it requires someone starting out to have a business plan and attract Capital to invest in their business. Their income is in revenue from that business after costs. This is the most tenuous and risky form of income wage, as if you don't have a good customer base, or if your costs are too high, or your product or service is sub-par, you'll have problems making income.
Unless of course, your business is a scam and requires cheating your investors or your customer to make money, in which case, your business model is really little better than the schemes of a thief or confidence man (or woman), and you pretty much deserve whatever the law or public mobs throw at you.
Very few Entrepreneurial ventures actually sustain themselves much past a few years, as such a model requires a stable foundation of secure local infrastructure, loyal and increasing customer base, and a stable, conservative (little "c" conservative - not cultural or neo-liberal Conservative) Capital environment to cover the inevitable periods where there is not a stable income flow or there are emergencies. The hard work and stress it takes to run your "own" business is very draining, and over 90% these businesses either fail or the ownership gets sold to interested investors who provide the original owner with compensation of some sort for the rights to run that business. The owner may still think he or she still owns the business, but in reality, they have lost control and slipped into the next category -the Private Sector wage earner.

Private Sector Jobs is when you seek employment in an independent, supervised or lesser management position - from either a privately managed company/corporation or from the above-described entrepreneur. Your income is dependent on two factors - the good-will, ethics and business model of the employer, and the labor environment of your community. If your community is Labor-friendly, your job security, wages and benefits will tend to be higher as the community recognizes that Labor is the most secure means to sustain both the community and Capital. If your community is Capital-friendly, your job security and wages reflect whatever the business philosophy of major Capital providers of the area is.
Private Sector Jobs tend to be dictated by Capital opportunities. The jobs that are available are only those jobs required to serve Capital - in other words, to produce enough to show a profit and meet the requirements for the employer to maintain Capital opportunities.
The ability to advance within these jobs is equally limited to that which is required to serve Capital, so even though a Private Sector company may need to employ 5000 persons in a community, there are only a select few of those positions that are "growth" positions, where an employee starting out at the bottom can rise between economic classes on that job alone.
Finally, studies in labor show that the larger the employer organization, the less the ratio for growth within the workforce exists within that organization. A company with 5000 employees will see less opportunity (openings) for employee advancement and greater positional stagnation within the workforce than a company with 15 employees will.
And finally, if there are no Capital opportunities in your community, there will be fewer Private Sector jobs.

Public Sector Jobs are pretty much jobs that are recognized as necessary to sustain a common community. They are primarily service jobs at local, regional, national and international levels, and as there is no requirement to serve Capital by showing a profit, there tends to be a lot of flexibility in terms of both upward and lateral movement within the public sector positions.
While wages and benefits within the Public Sector jobs tend to be lower at the upper levels than their private sector equivalents, Public Sector jobs tend to have a little better wages and benefits at the lower levels.
Public Sector Jobs are dependent on public revenues - grants from larger Non-profit or government organizational levels, local and regional taxes and local and regional fees. Oddly enough, a public sector job tends to pay for itself, as the Public Sector is able to negotiate more favorable benefit services simply through the function of having a larger pool of employees - which lowers the cost of labor, and the employee pays income taxes on his or her wages.
While these Public Sector Jobs seem to be a plumb job in terms of job security and growth, the employee often finds that the further "up the ladder" he or she goes, the less compensation they earn for their work is compared to the equivalent Private Sector position.
While there is a lot of opportunity to become wealthy in Private Sector jobs and through Entrepreneurship (as well as great poverty if something doesn't work out), the majority of the Public Sector employees cannot become "wealthy" simply working that job for their entire working careers. The few who do usually have used their Public employment to leverage a position of some sort in one of the other two sectors of income, and despite the stereotype, this is not the norm.

If there is a decrease in Private sector jobs, or in Capital-based employment opportunities due to, say, an economic panic in Capital, Public Sector jobs become the main place of employment for what is commonly considered "the Middle Class"


As Keynes showed us, no matter what fiscal policy a Nation claims to follow, if the Private Sector is unwilling to spend money, the ability for that nation to set it's own fiscal policy means that the Public Sector becomes the employer of last resort to get people employed, grease the wheels of a stalled economy, and pull a nation out of an economic death-spiral.
That's why Greece is having such a bad problem with their deficit - which is still not as bad as the deficit we had going into the Great Depression, and where the ballooning of Public Sector jobs stabilized and turned around the death spiral we were sliding into.
Greece is tied to the EU/Euro like New Jersey is a US state tied to the Dollar. Austerity doesn't work in those cases.
Heck, Austerity policies have never been shown to turn around a recession - but they have been shown historically to create revolutions and transfer Capital to those who position themselves to take power.

Haele

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 06:18 PM

117. That's big corporation strategy in all retail

And even some service industries.

Companies hire people as 'independent contractors' and avoid contributing to workers Social Security and health insurance.

Independent contractors don't get unemployment, health insurance AND they have to pay 8% extra FICA. That's why many who try to keep health insurance fall behind on quarterly income taxes and end up owing IRS. Then they drop health insurance to pay back taxes.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 06:25 PM

119. I used to be a GM at Staples. I left 7 years ago to become a teacher.

I make $20,000 LESS now then I did as a Staples GM, but I was a manager. As manager, my job was to hire the cheapest talent I could get and then get the most out of them I could. We'd hire mostly high school kids at minimum wage. If you worked hard and became a department lead, you could make up to $11/hr. Sales Managers, who made a little bit more, were under overt pressure to sell service plans or be fired.

Having said that, they weren't a terrible place to work, which really is part of the problem. Staples is a well-run company in the Walmart mode: Make as much profit as you can by offering low prices that are offset by cheap labor.

I don't miss a single day out of retail.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 07:51 PM

121. These are not good jobs Romney created. The jobs they replaced

were small/med business ones. , some employees were owners, some were managers. You can say what you want about efficiency but it does not create good jobs.

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Response to longship (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 11:44 PM

154. the local store where i go has 100% turnover rate

at least every 3 or so there`s a completely new work force.

unfortunately there is no other stores in the area that sells office supplies

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Response to longship (Original post)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:14 PM

169. Bigot RW owner of Staples considers it an accomplishment no doubt

more bucks for him

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Response to lunasun (Reply #169)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:21 PM

170. oh yeah and this kind of crap from owner Stemberg re: ACA aka obamacare

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