"The economy is improving, therefore OWS will go away."

[nadinbrzezinski]

This traditional thinking has one wrinkle though. Take a look at youth unemployment. Also take a look at student debt and what jobs kids can get.

This is a very similar pattern world wide. It does not matter if this is Tel Aviv, Cairo, Washington, or Paris. We are living the new GLOBALIZED economy paradigm. Heck, yesterday Ricky was going on this and how our jobs are way too expensive and can't compete. Globalization is one of the forces behind this.

So think about it...go to college and work as a waiter is the present condition of youth, regardless of where.

And it is one of the drivers to this global revolution.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. This country has so many problems (brought to us courtesy of the Repukes), that these won't

soon go away. Occupy will be with us for a long time to come. I LOVE OCCUPY!

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yeah, but I have heard that here in the recent past

I just pointed to one of the main drivers. That is just one.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. I know. There are some in here who are scared of civil disobedience. It's discouraged in the U.S.

The spirit of fighting for freedom and fairness has been knocked out of too many in the U.S.

But Occupy isn't going to go away. It's going to teach us not only that civil disobedience is good, but that it's necessary.

Those who are afraid need to grow some courage.

[FreakinDJ]

2. Oh - is it going to be a "Long Hot Summer"

Occupy isn't going away any time soon

and the economy is improving - for who ? - Wall St

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Hey, on the bright side

I might capture the photo of the season...since I am not on major media though.

[hack89]

8. "Sorry, the revolution is postponed because it is too cold!"

Weather dependent revolutions are not usually successful - if OWS goes into hiatus all winter, do you really think it will have any credibility?

[Demeter]

9. OWS is not in hiatus

Where did you get that idea?

[hack89]

10. There doesn't seem to be much occupying going on.

fewer sites, fewer people, little action.

[pintobean]

11. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean

it isn't happening.

[Demeter]

12. That's NOT the Occupation

that's the theater. The work is being done, indoors and on line.

[hack89]

16. We'll see

without leaders and an organization, OWS is nothing. I don't think they have the discipline to organize in time for the elections. And if they are irrelevant to the elections then they are irrelevant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Well I'll give you the same credit I give my local cops

Leaderless is giving them fits too.

As to lack of organization...you could not be farther from...but hey. You share that with assistant Chief Boyd. He doesn't get it either. To be fair, it's the hardest thing to get about them. It is truly a function of the network.

[randome]

53. It's more like a failure of the network...

...that you try to spin into a 'function'.

Much like Microsoft prefers to call bugs 'features'.

[hack89]

55. Yet the cops seem to be winning.

Last edited Wed Jan 4, 2012, 05:31 PM - Edit history (1)

The lack of results must be due to something - if not due to a lack of leadership why is OWS so ineffective? Lack of support? Lack of focus? Too many ideas? Or do I have to wait for that warm weather surprise?

[bvar22]

77. LOL.

OWS LIVES!!!


[font size=5 color=green][center]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[hack89]

79. A movement that doesn't actually accomplish something is doomed. nt

[bvar22]

82. Hasn't accomplished anything?

OWS has changed the message coming from the White House.
Before OWS, the message was ALL about "Cut Spending, Eat peas, The Deficit!!!"
You don't hear THAT coming from the White House anymore.

OWS has even changed YOU.
NOW, you are spending time and effort vainly trying to insist that "OWS hasn't changed anything"
when it is apparent that to everyone reading this thread that it has had a direct impact on your personal life.

[pintobean]

83. Lol

I've been moved to post comments on the internet, therefore, OWS is a successful movement. I think they call that "grasping at straws".

[girl gone mad]

86. That's an odd interpretation of bvar's post.

Maybe try reading it again.

[pintobean]

99. Looks like I was correct.

See below.

[girl gone mad]

106. What am I supposed to be looking at?

Also, if OWS is so super irrelevant, why are you wasting so much time talking about them?

Like I told the other poster maniacally bashing OWS, I do not spend time posting on topics which I believe to be irrelevant. Who does that? What other irrelevant topics do you regularly write about?

[bvar22]

96. Deny it all you want,

..but the fact that someone is "moved" to post a succession of statements on the internet does, IN FACT, prove that something has "changed" in their personal life and awareness. Every single post after the initial denial indicates an even deeper level of "change".

Me thinks thou dost protest too much!

[hack89]

100. So the WH is maneuvering to co-opt the OWS message?

I think many will get a rude shock next year when OWS is pushed to the curb by politicians parroting the OWS message to get elected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. WHAT???? For a non influential, does not matter movement, that is

quite influential...

Oh wait, isn't that what some of us propagandists have told you is already happening?

Shakes head, walks away... can't have it both ways.

Definitely walks away... this is way too bizarre.

[hack89]

111. The angst and fear that drives OWS is real.

the politicians don't need OWS to campaign on those issues. That's what I meant - their message will be co-opted. The public doesn't care who fixes the problems - if Obama can convince them he is the guy then OWS is irrelevant.

on edit: it may be that all OWS accomplishes will be to provide every Democrat running for office a neat script to read from.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. HALLLELUJAH... you got it, by jove you GOT IT!!!!!!

THAT IS HOW SOCIAL MOVEMENTS WORK!!!!!!!

This means they are achieving SOME OF THEIR GOALS ALREADY.

BY jove you got it and you really do not get it just how much you do.

Congratulations.

We might actually get somewhere after all.

Where is the hallelujah chorus?

[hack89]

117. You don't understand though - nothing will actually change, it's the same old system

Do you really think our present system will actually bring about a social revolution?

on edit: how can a non-progressive president implement a progressive agenda?

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. If it does not, then the words of Kennedy come to mind

those who prevent peaceful revolution ensure the violent kind. I do not think the political class wants that.

Why do you think the New Deal came to be? To save capitalism from itself... somebody in the political elite will decide, just like FDR did... we give them some of what they want, they go back home. We don't... well then.

So if nothing is going to change, what the hell are you doing in politics? I mean nothing is going to change. That is the most cynical statement I have ever heard. But the first step for ANY social movement is exactly the political elites adopting some of their language... or you think nothing changed after the political elites adopted that language in the 1930s or during the civil rights movement?

You can't have it both ways. They are either non influential or by jove they are having influence already. So what is it?

And yes, we are living through the chinese curse... interesting times, and not just in the US... this is global.

[hack89]

121. You first need to elect progressives if you want a progressive agenda implemented

here we are gearing up for a huge election and where is OWS?

They are influential only in that they have highlighted the public's fear and anger. They are not influential in that they don't wield any political power and have not captured the public's imagination. When Democratic mayors feel they can sic the police on OWS with no repercussions it is clear that no fears OWS

The election will be OWS lite unless OWS gets their shit together and actually do something.

[zappaman]

122. you'll see

I think you will be in for a big surprise!

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Alas it is not one or the other

and that is what you are failing to comprehend.

And I am not going to ONCE AGAINST list what they are doing within the political system. There is a limit on how many times we will list these things to you.

Have a good life, I see we are back to your usual.

Bye.

[hack89]

124. They are doing jack shit in Rhode Island - why is that? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. And Rhode Island is the United States... assuming you are correct

a cursory check though proves that this is not the case.

http://www.630wpro.com/Article.asp?id=2364200&spid=38785

http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/occupy.html

Now this took less than two seconds on the google. You might want to try that.

Oh wait, they are trying to help the invisible in the society... therefore they are invisible.

Whatever, I expect YOU to ignore that too. Like you ignore everything else.

Now have a good day... proving that you might be mistaken is way too easy... and you, and the political class NOT talking about them means jack shit as to what they are doing. In case you wonder MY LOCAL political class either says nothing or complaints to no end. That means jack shit as well.

[hack89]

128. A liberal Democrat mayor has been blowing them off for months.

They are pissing and moaning because the mayor doesn't do what they want and open a homeless center.

They are not involved in local elections or campaigns. They are irrelevant to political discourse in the state. They have accomplished nothing.

[hack89]

129. You are once again confusing action with accomplishments.

Good intentions and kind thoughts mean nothing if they have no significant impact.

[2pooped2pop]

169. here it is

hallelujah! hallelujah! hallelujah!

Seems that some people on here are really really afraid of the success of Occupy. Reminds me a lot of republicants. Strange on this site, eh?

[Zalatix]

141. Parroting the OWS message is not saying they are irrelevant

in fact, it is a clear recognition of the influence they have wielded upon society.

[hack89]

144. If the intent is simply to disfuse anger directed at Democrats

and is simply a means to marginalize OWS in the political process, then OWS is irrelevant. Call me when the President and Congressional leaders invite OWS to participate in drafting legislation.

All every Democrat in the country is thinking about is reelection. If OWS is not committed to helping Democrats get elected, they will be marginalized in a heart beat. OWS retoric may provide stump speech material but nothing more.

[Zalatix]

140. OWS hasn't achieved anything? Are you serious???

They've changed the entire nationwide dialog. They've brought the plight of the 99% to the front of the news. The rich are whining about being under attack.

Most of all? The Occupy movement is still growing.

[hack89]

143. But nothing has changed

and there is no reason to think it will considering OWS doesn't seem to know how to transition the movement beyond occupying parks and confrontation.

As for the dialog, yes they have highlighted the anger and angst of the American people. But OWS will not be the ones to fix those things - their message will be co-opted by every Democrat seeking election. But it is hard to imagine OWS getting a seat at the table until they decide to actively engage in partisan politics. For one thing, who the hell do you invite if they are truly a leaderless movement - the political world is not going to stop while OWS hashes it out in a huge GA.

I disagree that OWS is growing - it has withered away to irrelevancy in my state. Democratic mayors in several cities feel free to sic the police on OWS with no repercussions - how can you say it is growing when there are fewer people occupying fewer cities?

[Zalatix]

147. Wait, if Democrats co-opt the movement

then does this not automatically mean that OWS has caused change? They will certainly have changed the Democrats' message to the people.

[hack89]

161. Do you care about messages or actions?

politicians say a lot of things. Do you think our present elected officials will actually implement the things OWS wants? You need to change who is running the country. Which means elections - and OWS doesn't appear to want to get involved in partisan politics. Look at the Tea Party - they made it their goal to actually change the Republican party. They didn't trust the establishment to implement their goals.

[CoffeeCat]

199. I am OWS and I haven't been to one protest...

I am through with the corruption, the destruction of our civil rights, the wars, the torture
the corporations owning our government while our politicians hand them the keys to
our nation.

I couldn't be more passionate about being done with these politicians and with what they
have done to our government.

I am OWS, but I haven't been visible YET.

For every OWS person protesting in the streets, there are tens of thousands of people who agree with
them.

The movement is in its initial stages. They're not "organized" as you said, because this is "We The
People" fighting back--not some staged, astroturf group funded by the Koch Brothers and publicized
by a Madison Avenue advertising agency.

OWS is a state of mind and many are waking up to it. It's just beginning.

[hack89]

200. But will those same people support OWS in the absence of any articulated plan of action?

people want solutions. OWS has done a great job rousing the anger of the public. Now they need to show that they have viable solutions. Which means more detail, more focus.

[SammyWinstonJack]

249. wooosh.

[hack89]

250. I understood the post - I just question any movement that depends on some unseen silent majority

phantoms and fantasies are not a national movement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

202. After you got the recording

Yiu and I know plans and demands are taking form.

I am going to seriously suffer, as hard as it is, that we stop answering the recordings.

[hack89]

251. I guess it beats answering hard questions. nt

[truth2power]

254. You might want to read the book,"The Spider and the Starfish"...

about the power of leaderless organizations.

The criminals, Jamie Dimon, Ben Bernanke, Hank Paulson et. al. only wish they could get their hands on the 'leaders' of OWS. Sorry, fellahs!


A little anecdote:

Chris Hedges was telling a story about some guy walking around one of the 'occupy' sites, asking where the leader was. Everyone had pretty much determined he was an undercover cop.

He approached a woman who was working on some task and asked who was in charge. She said, "I am." He got all excited and said, "What's your name?" She replied, "God".

[hack89]

257. Call me when OWS puts a million people on the Mall in DC. nt

[truth2power]

259. The PTB don't give a rat's-ass if a million people are on the mall; OWS or otherwise...

That's not what it's about. I think you still don't understand.

[hack89]

260. No I understand very well

a non-organized movement with lots of silent (invisible) supporters gearing up for a big surprise in the spring.

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. 5000 protester for the Rose Parade in LA. Yesterday was a day of action in NYC against the

NDAA.

Occupy is carrying out Occupy Foreclosures throughout this Country.

Occupy in many cities hold GA nightly.

Lots going on with the Occupy movement.

Jan 17th is Occupy Congress in DC, I believe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. You are correct

[hack89]

80. Tiny groups of people sparsely scattered over a large country.

care to talk about all those places it is non- existent?

[girl gone mad]

87. Why?

[Zalatix]

142. Wow, the Plutocrats LOVE you today.

Please tell me you don't post all this anti-OWS propaganda for free. You should at least get paid.

[hack89]

145. Everyone loves me - it's my cuddly nature. nt

[hack89]

163. So if we don't bend a knee to OWS

we are right wing shills?

[2pooped2pop]

172. perhaps not

but bashing the shit out of them and obviously showing your fear of their success does tend to make one wonder why.

[hack89]

177. "fear"? give me a break.

I just want their help for next years election - while they are busy "organizing" for Saint Nad's big spring surprise, the political world is leaving them behind.

[2pooped2pop]

183. you bash them constantly

You are either very afraid of them, or stupid. You don't seem stupid.

Perhaps if you wanted their help, you should have joined them. Obviously, they need a leader like you. rofl

[hack89]

184. No - I criticize them because I think they are pissing away the opportunity of a lifetime.

I want them to succeed.

[MattSh]

165. One of the places that it is surely non-existent...

is in your head.

Now why would I care to talk about that?

[hack89]

175. You need to get your head out the internet and take a look around

OWS is not a national phenomena - in most states it consists of small groups of community activists doing what they have been doing for decades for their particular cause. With no coherent focus and message and with tactics that alienate many it is not growing.

[Demeter]

166. ‘Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world...

‘Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.’


— Margaret Mead

[hack89]

171. Sure - a focused, organized group

I want OWS to succeed and be a factor in next year's election - hence my frustration with their lack of urgency and focus.

A plan, organization and hard work is needed - and needed now.

[truth2power]

256. It sounds like the only thing you understand is a corporate/business model...

I was at a meeting a couple weeks ago where an older gentleman who described himself as a corporate retiree kept yelling (yes, I mean yelling) at everyone that nothing could get done unless everyone sat down and wrote out objectives, blah blah.

He'd probably have a heart attack if he witnessed one of the OWS General Assemblies, where decisions are made by consensus and participants express their opinions about issues by means of hand signals.

You remind me very much of that gentleman. See my response to you, above.


edit for typo: change he's to he'd.

[hack89]

258. Voting is the only legitimate way to change our system

there is an election this year. OWS needs to be a part of it.

[truth2power]

261. I think it was Phil Berrigan who said, "If voting made any difference

it would be illegal."

I think the fix is in. The PTB will make sure, by hook or by crook, that the next president is the person who will best serve the interests of Wall St. and Goldman Sachs.

[hack89]

262. So you think OWS should ignore the election process?

how do you think they are going to implement their agenda and transform America?

[truth2power]

277. Individually, they should do whatever they see fit. But you're still thinking of OWS as

a homogeneous entity taking orders from some 'leader'.

I'd be interested in just how you think OWS could transform America through the electoral process. Specifically.

[randome]

278. How about focusing on one thing instead of trying to do everything at once?

Even Bill Clinton says OWS needs better articulated goals.

I'm sure we can all agree that Citizens United needs to be overturned. How about OWS focus on that?

One victory at a time.

You can't change the world with 'declarations' and 'intentions'. You have to have something concrete.

[pintobean]

279. Here

have a laugh

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101826226

[randome]

280. LOL. I had missed that one.

Thanks! (And I really should lay off DU for a while or I'll start having my own weird dreams.)

[hack89]

282. They can explicilty state that they will support the reelection of President Obama.

and then coordinate with local democratic activists to coordinate campaign support - voter registration, get out the vote activities, etc.

[zappaman]

283. that would be a good start. n/t

[truth2power]

284. One more time. You still don't get it....

Change will not be brought about through the electorial process because the corporate state controls all the levers of power. It's impossible to vote against the interests of Goldman-Sachs.

This evening I watched a recent BookTV in-depth interview with Chris Hedges.

Link for anyone interested: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/303072-1

Some of the things Hedges reiterated, from the many books he's written:

The question is not how you get good people to rule. Those attracted to power are at best mediocre and at worst venal.

The farther you get from the centers of power, the more latitude you have to bring about change. I think OWS understands this idea. Which is why they would not ally themselves with any one candidate, or with the electoral process in general.

I apologize for my feeble attempts to explain this. I think many on this thread, nadin especially, have tried to clarify what OWS is about. I don't know what more can be said.

[hack89]

286. So OWS has adopted an ankle biting strategy at the fringes of the system

hoping that somehow, sometime it will bring the entire edifice toppling down? Good luck with that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. That's your latest attack

How laughable.

Sorry, but at this point you are unserious. Just because they are not in your face... I told you the other day, you can even find out what your locals are up to WITHOUT going out there, also...ignore this at your peril...for each physical occupation there are at least ten that are not physical.

But hey, what is going to hurt people like you is that this is all but traditional. Enjoy, most likely not, the surprises. Oh and don't expect (insert elite media here) to lead in that reporting. If they were gone why did they shut down, or at least try, global revolution and streaming? Not like this has not been done in the past with other technologies and rebels by the way. But if they are gone, as you claim, why are police agencies increasing the pressure nationwide? You really do not need to answer.

[hack89]

24. When all a movement has to offer is promises of some nebulous "surprises" when the weather get nicer

perhaps they are taking themselves a little too seriously.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Perhaps when you develop some intellectual curiosity

We can have a fruitful discussion. No, I am not giving you any list AGAIN.

[randome]

41. You forgot to add...

...'And keep up the great campaign work for your local candidates'. Because, you know, hack89 does stuff like that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. And... your point is... exactly

Nope, I am not going to point this out AGAIN, since it goes in and not even through.

[hack89]

52. Have you ever considered how condescending your reply sounds?

not everyone who disagrees with you does it out of ignorance. I am sure it must be very exciting being around all that energy at OWS but don't let it fool you into thinking you have gained some special insight that your fellow citizens are simply too ignorant to grasp. Hubris has destroyed more than one social movement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Well given I spent hours trying to have

that fruitful discussion, no, I don't. After all you have been absolutely condescending from the word go. You have also been dismissive.

I sugest, in all seriousness, if this subject truly bothers you so much, that you ignore poster, or simply hide threads, or better, not even open them. Save yourself all that.

Those of us who are INTERESTED IN THIS SUBJECT are not going to stop discussing it to please you. But at least I am going to stop talking to you. We are both wasting our time, and you know it.

[hack89]

59. If you want an echo chamber, why are you at DU? nt

[girl gone mad]

89. Just put him or her on ignore.

Look at every response. S/he makes no effort to engage in genuine dialogue. It's all just one ongoing anti-OWS screed.

Pointless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. The only problem, and this is belongs in meta

is that once you do... every post in the sub-thread is hidden.



Otherwise I would.

[girl gone mad]

104. Well that's lame!

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. Yeah I think I will have to raise it over there

it makes ignore quite useless, in a way.

In fact, I have.

[2pooped2pop]

173. not too ignorant to grasp

but perhaps, unwillingness on someone's part.

[prairierose]

22. My local occupy convinced the city council...

to move city money from big banks to local banks and credit unions last night. Why do you think it has gone away for the winter? There are many activities going on all over the country. We also have a new teach in scheduled for next week. Local activities matter and there are local events going on all over the country.

[randome]

26. So it's not really OWS any more, is it?

It's just people doing worthwhile things. More power to 'em!

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. No, it is OWS.

OWS are run at the local level using general assemblies. This has been explained to you many times. When you develop the intellectual curiosity perhaps we can discuss this.

[girl gone mad]

90. I see what you did there.

When you can get away with pretending that they aren't accomplishing anything, they're OWS losers.

When presented with evidence of tangible accomplishments, it's just a group of random people.

Not very convincing, though, is it?

[hack89]

29. My local occupy has withered into irrelevancy.

I see no impact on national politics by OWS at all.

Local level advocacy like yours has been going on in America for decades - talk to any civil rights or community organizer. Doesn't mean it portends some momentous shift in American society or politics. In case you have forgotten, the Tea Party is just as active on the local level.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Just because you don't see them

Let me guess, local media ain't covering them? If you expect elite media to be fair, it's like expecting the Chicago Trib to cover the unions fairly before, or after, the Haymarket. It just ain't gonna happen. Again, call back when you develop any intellectual curiosity.

[hack89]

47. I am intellectually curious as to how an invisible, fair weather movement

will fundamentally change America.

If they are so relevant, why do you need to keep telling us?

[girl gone mad]

91. If they are so irrelevant why do you need to keep trying to convinve us?

Shouldn't it be obvious to all?

[hack89]

92. If they are relevant I would be hearing about them outside of DU . nt

[girl gone mad]

95. Uh-huh.

Google for "Occupy Wall Street" = 431,000,000 results

Maybe try spending a couple of seconds away from DU.

You aren't convincing anyone who doesn't already hate OWS.

[Zorra]

149. Not. Fox News, etc, is owned by the 1% and they don't

want to give Occupy any free publicity.

And RW websites won't give you much Occupy info either. Nor will Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Laura Ingram, you get the picture.

May I suggest investigating some of the more popular left leaning websites that are somewhat similar to DU? You may find a wealth of information about Occupy from the more liberal sources of information!

A recent study suggests that watching Fox News makes you less aware of world events than watching no news at all.

And the Third Way website is as useless as Fox News for learning anything genuinely substantive.

these are just the first 2 websites i picked out at random, and golly gee, they have info about OWS just like DU does. I'll be darned. So,

Try Daily Kos for example!
ows
5440 entries

http://www.dailykos.com/news/ows

or Buzzflash!!! Oh, my! Look at this headline from the front page!

How relevant to our discussion!!!

With the Suppression of the Occupy Movement Encampments the False 1% Media Lies Return
http://blog.buzzflash.com/

The truth. It will set you free.

[hack89]

162. How do you build a national movement using obscure news sources?

OWS needs to enter the mainstream of political discussion in America. KOS and Buzzflash will not reach the people you need.

[2pooped2pop]

186. dude ,just start your own thing

let's see you step up there and lead your political storm. Go hack, go. go. No really. go.

[hack89]

188. Don't need to - the Rhode Island Democratic party is there already

working hard to elect Democrats. You do think elections are important, don't you?

[Zorra]

204. How do we build a national movement using MSM news sources owned by our opposition?

We can't, except for when we engage in out of the box direct action that the MSM cannot ignore without arousing major suspicion. Occupying public spaces around government buildings was one such "out of the box" method.

So we use the internet also, like Howard Dean, and this guy:

Propelled by Internet, Barack Obama Wins Presidency

"I was never the likeliest candidate for this office," Obama said in an acceptance speech in Chicago Tuesday night. "We didn’t start with much money or many endorsements. Our campaign … was built by working men and women who dug into what little savings they had to give five dollars and ten dollars and twenty dollars to this cause."

Both Obama and Republican rival John McCain relied on the net to bolster their campaigns. But Obama’s online success dwarfed his opponent’s, and proved key to his winning the presidency. Volunteers used Obama’s website to organize a thousand phone-banking events in the last week of the race — and 150,000 other campaign-related events over the course of the campaign. Supporters created more than 35,000 groups clumped by affinities like geographical proximity and shared pop-cultural interests. By the end of the campaign, myBarackObama.com chalked up some 1.5 million accounts. And Obama raised a record-breaking $600 million in contributions from more than three million people, many of whom donated through the web.

"He’s run a campaign where he’s used very modern tools, spoke to a new coalition, talked about new issues, and along the way, he’s reinvented the way campaigns are run," says Simon Rosenberg, president and founder of the nonprofit think-tank NDN, and a veteran of Bill Clinton’s first presidential campaign. "Compared to our 1992 campaign, this is like a multi-national corporation versus a non-profit."

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/11/propelled-by-in/

Exactly what Occupy has done, and is doing, is how we've built the movement so far.

Despite the opposition of the most powerful economic forces in the world, Occupy has changed the national discussion and consciousness in a mere 3 1/2 months.

The fact that we are currently engaged in a discussion about Occupy that already has over 200 replies makes this fact quite evident.

[hack89]

208. And look how few people are involved in the conversation

and look at the lack of consensus. Just like the real world.

[Zorra]

215. A few weeks ago

Please Kick and Rec if you support OWS - Democratic Underground
Dec 14, 2011
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100216575

593 Recommendations

[hack89]

227. DU is such a narrow slice of America

that thread is meaningless when talking about America as a whole.

I refer you to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124019737

and specifically this link:

https://www.google.com/adplanner/planning/site_profile?hl=en#siteDetails?identifier=democraticunderground.com&lp=true

To see how unlike the typical American the typical DU member is.

[Zorra]

263. Frankly and directly speaking, I can't waste any more time rebutting meaningless and transparent

anti-OWS propaganda posts. I need to start getting ready to travel to an Occupy GA.

So I'll leave you with this:

DU is one of many liberal websites. Collectively, there is a fair amount of information that is spread through these websites.

Propelled by Internet, Barack Obama Wins Presidency

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/11/propelled-by-in/

I don't really care about your obvious anti-Occupy agenda; but I do question why you have such an obvious and focused, but poorly managed, OWS agenda. The collective 1%, Third Way, and the GOP hate Occupy also, but they're basically irrelevant as antagonists as well.

Occupy is a progressive, anti-corporatist, democratically oriented phenomenon. Of course these conservative groups want to stop us. We are the very antithesis of modern day conservatives.

But all the propaganda spewing and stifling of information in the world won't help them stop Occupy. They've already arrested 6,000 of us in this country alone.

We're winning.

There's nothing, not one thing, that any of you that have an anti-OWS agenda can ever do or say that can stop the Occupy Movement. After only 3 1/2 months, the results of our efforts are already manifesting. And this is just the beginning.

Citizens United Backlash Grows from Cali. to NYC Urging Congress to Overturn Corporate Personhood

Adding to a growing nationwide backlash against the U.S. Supreme Court’s Citizens United ruling, California lawmakers have introduced a resolution that calls on Congress to "propose and send to the states for ratification a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United." The New York City Council has just passed a similar resolution, echoing measures passed in Los Angeles, Oakland, Albany and Boulder. We speak to Public Citizen President Robert Weissman; California Assemblymember Bob Wieckowski, who introduced the state’s Citizens United resolution; and New York City Council Member and measure co-sponsor Melissa Mark-Viverito. "I think it taps into the sentiment that we’re seeing around the country growing, regarding Occupy Wall Street, where people really feel that government is disconnected from the vast majority of the population, and because of this influence that corporate interests have," Mark-Viverito says.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/1/5/citizens_united_backlash_grows_from_cali

Enjoy the future!

See ya!

[hack89]

264. Same to you - I am off to get Democrats elected to office.

I hope OWS doesn't try to get in the way - one Ralph Nader experience in a lifetime is enough.

[pintobean]

265. If dissenting viewpoints

are considered propaganda, aren't the pro-OWS posts propaganda, as well. I never see anti-OWS OPs, but there are plenty that support it. Those OPs are almost daily, and they're very repetitive.

prop·a·gan·da [prop-uh-gan-duh]
noun
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.


The constant OPs fit that definition a lot better than replies do.

Personally, I wouldn't label either as propaganda. This is a discussion board. It's being discussed.

[zappaman]

266. This is a recording. n/t

[pintobean]

268. I've asked admin

to be put on forced mutual record.

[zappaman]

269. Throw it on a loop.

I expect another "where OWS is headed" thread containing no new information any minute now!

[randome]

267. Oh, dear me.

You've been 'recorded', pintobean!

How tragic.

[zappaman]

270. Obviously you do not understand what a recording is

As a historian, I could tell you, but I won't so there.

[randome]

271. But, but, but....

An historian AND a reporter, I hope.

(Aw, jeeze, it's no fun when it's just us by ourselves.)

[pintobean]

272. Do not be

drawn to the light. It's just the 'record on' indicator led.

[greytdemocrat]

119. Because...

It's her current "shiny object" that she shoves in everyones face here to gain attention.

[2pooped2pop]

174. Faux is that you? n/t

[hack89]

178. No. Ostrich, is that you? nt

[truth2power]

285. It's not about politics, as such. n/t

[hack89]

287. It does seem to be about anything more than venting anger and frustration

which makes you feel better but leaves no permanent mark.

[2pooped2pop]

168. I think I've seen you post this too cold shit before

You appear to me to wish that Occupy will go away. I'm happy to tell you that you will not receive that wish.

We are here to stay. Your negative posts are either naive or an attempt to sour the mood.

Won't happen. Occupy is different. Occupy is growing even in the winter. You think they all went home? You think they all died? They are working even harder now that they are out of the cold.

As a matter of fact, I think breaking the camps actually helped them to organize better and in warmer conditions. A blessing in disguise. Poke the hive, poke the hive. lol

I think you will be most unhappy come spring, my friend.

[hack89]

170. No - I want OWS to be a factor in next year's election

which means some sort of focus NOW.

Spring is too late - while OWS is "organizing" the Tea Party is working on elections. OWS has competition for the ear of the public - complacency on their part may mean they are the ones that are surprised.

[2pooped2pop]

176. we're sorry that we haven't been able

to time this revolution to your specific requests. Perhaps if you joined in instead of sitting safelty on the sidelines, or nestled in the DLC arms and bitching about us, we would have been able to have organized better.

[hack89]

180. I am right in the middle of preparing for an election campaign

I am not going to stop that to sit in a tent. There is real work to be done - elections are important don't you think. I do not see how OWS plans to influence the election in anyway what so ever.

[2pooped2pop]

187. then, might I suggest you join for tea?

Occupy does not work just for you. It will affect the elections, but it will not blindly support your party.

[hack89]

190. So OWS will support non-Democrats? Or just certain Democrats?

When will they tell us what candidates get their stamp of approval?

[2pooped2pop]

195. well. I'll tell you need it now

lol

[hack89]

196. Can't you simply say that you have no clue what OWS is planning to do?

that would be the honest answer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

213. This is a recording

[hack89]

225. Nadine - there is no question that you have no clue.

because of your refusal to answer straight questions with straight answers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

230. Recording of personal attack

[Occulus]

281. There's a reason Holsinger called his piece

"In Spring, at the Time when Kings go Off to War"

[zappaman]

3. That's an odd quote

I agree it's not true, but am wondering who said it?

[pintobean]

6. .

[randome]

13. Didn't Orly Taitz say something like that?

No, wait...guess I'm thinking of someone else.

[tkmorris]

14. I too wondered who was being quoted

Could anyone clear that up?

[pintobean]

17. Google gives 2 results

this thread and a ditto at DU2.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2473440

[AtomicKitten]

273. So, nobody said it.

[pintobean]

274. Twice

[AtomicKitten]

275. lol x 2

[zappaman]

276. lol x 4

[mmonk]

7. Jobless recoveries or declining wage jobs

won't make OWS go away.

[Motown_Johnny]

15. those who are unable to learn from history are doomed to repeat it

The injustice which has been institutionalized in our society will still exist even if we were able to achieve full employment.

OWS is still in it's infancy. It isn't going away anytime soon.

[randome]

18. And those who stare into history's navel too long...

...forget what the Present is like.

Why do you think you have to continually remind us all that OWS is relevant? If it's relevant, let the actions of the organization (if you can call it that) speak for itself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. That is why police, predictably, is doing what is doing

Because they are nobodies. You and your friend crossed into quite unserious by now.

[randome]

23. I have a friend?

Who is he? Or is it a she? I HOPE it's a she!

[2pooped2pop]

189. no, you are right

You probably don't have a friend.

[randome]

191. I'm so sad.

Why don't you respond to my post at the bottom of this thread? Hm? I'd be much more intersted in that.

[Motown_Johnny]

28. to help it grow

the more people know about it the stronger it becomes.

Why are you threatened by this?

[randome]

30. Me? Threatened?

You make me laugh.

This is Democratic Underground. I think everyone here knows about OWS already.

[Motown_Johnny]

32. Then why lash out at me?

If my post has done no good why are you so upset about it? You seem pretty angry about it.

[randome]

35. Not sure where you see 'anger' in any of my posts.

I am a little weary of hearing OWS adherents start thread after thread on DU to remind us that they -as well as OWS- are still relevant.

I question why that needs to be repeated so often.

And my initial response to you was in regards to your history meme.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I got a solution for you

Hide thread, or better yet...ignore poster. That way you won't have to bother your precious mind. I am serious on that. I am not going to stop posting on something that happens to be of interest to me and quite a few others to please you.

But it is you who invariably, like a moth drawn to light, comes into these threads. If I am weary of a subject, and there are plenty, I just don't participate in them. I am sure you can do that too. Otherwise we will have to conclude that you have a need to come into them and repeat the same. Hey at least you haven't complained of camping...perhaps we are slowly, as in very slowly, making some progress.

[randome]

46. But this is entertaining.

And an interesting experiment in debates and human nature.

Plus I have a philosophical stance against putting anyone on Ignore.

Plus, plus, we moths are helpless when you shine a brighty thing in our eyes.

[pintobean]

50. You're not the light, nadin

and randome isn't a moth.

[Ikonoklast]

234. That moth is being dragged in by the gravity well of an enormous ego.

Expert in all things, condescending to the extreme, and opinionated about things not very well understood.

I'm glad that no one here resembles that description.

[pintobean]

240. Google-de-goo

[zappaman]

243. +1000! n/t

[girl gone mad]

107. Seems to really be getting under your skin.

Why do you think that is?

What other meaningless and irrelevant matters cause you so much dismay?

[Zorra]

150. Then don't look. Just ignore the Occupy threads if they threaten you somehow.

I'm shocked, shocked I say, that you have not previously thought of this for yourself!

[girl gone mad]

97. Why do you have to spend so much time trying to convince people it isn't relevant?

If OWS is not relevant, why even go to the trouble to post on the topic?

I certainly don't waste time arguing with people over something I think is irrelevant.

To do such a thing would be a little nuts, don't you think?

[randome]

131. Yep. I'm absolutely, totally nut-zo!

So why do I really post on this topic? Because I see fellow DUers setting themselves up for an abysmal letdown when they finally realize that OWS is not THE ONE they have been waiting for.

And because I have as much a say in what goes on in these forums as anyone else.

And because I like observing otherwise rational people refusing to accept reality. I wonder how far that refusal can extend. It's a learning process for me. And a catharsis, if you will.

My New Year's Resolution was this: I vowed to be less tolerant. By that, I mean no longer parsing my words and more often saying precisely what I mean.

I've reneged somewhat on that resolution so far because I still find myself trying to hedge when pointing out the bleeding obvious to the OWS adherents -that without leaders or an agenda, nothing but confusion can come of this. And in the process, the very politicians we need to support will be harmed.

Not everything is a conspiracy, you know. It isn't the Corporations and the Republicans and Law Enforcement and the Democrats and a growing number of DUers who are all out to BRING YOU DOWN.

The real heroes of 2011 -and probably 2012- are the people in Wisconsin who are working like hell to get Walker and his ilk out of office.

Wisconsin has raised the bar and OWS has a hell of a lot more to do to aspire to be anywhere near as effective.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Alas there is an agenda

but it is like a certain congressman said, having a conversation with a table will be far more productive... at this stage.

As to let down... and wisconsin and all that... if you got it, you'd understand the connections. You don't get it, therefore you are missing the connections.

Now let me talk to my table. It's been holding notes and all that... it is far more knowledgable on the subject that you will ever willingly be.

See I can follow that new years resolution too. Now if that pesky ignore is resolved I will GLADLY put you, and your three other fellow travelers on it. My table is far less painful, so is my wall.

[randome]

164. But if you put me on Ignore, you'll never know what I'm saying about you behind your back.

[Zorra]

151. Bwaahaahaaa! Thanks so much for your concern!

Too much!


"a growing number of DUers who are all out to BRING YOU DOWN."

What a total crock of shit!!


Please Kick and Rec if you support OWS - Democratic Underground
Dec 14, 2011
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100216575

593 Recommendations!!!


Fail.

give it up.

[2pooped2pop]

192. lol, so it's to save us.

You are right. It is funny.

and you are obvious.

[randome]

193. No funnier than you thinking you are saving the 99%.

[2pooped2pop]

179. It is speaking

It seems that you may have a hearing problem.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

20. Middle-aged borrowers, including the unemployed, are now taking on more student debt as well.

"An analysis by Reuters finds that "middle-aged borrowers are piling up student debt faster than any other age group,' "
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/756453/in_last_three_years,_student_debt_of_middle-age_americans_grew_by_nearly_50_percent/

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. It is the next crisis indeed

[The2ndWheel]

25. By that they sound like Luddites

From what you're saying, the present condition of youth everywhere is that they're not really needed. So what it amounts to is that these revolutionaries are protesting against their own obsoleteness because of globalization.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. No they are protesting against a non future

And this is what revolutions are made off.

[MisterP]

75. that was E.P. Thompson's groundbreaking work--the weavers' "obsolescence" was created by

profit maximization; they reasoned, why should they starve so the capitalists could starve weavers in Bengal?

[joeglow3]

27. Sadly, they don't vote and don't have any money to spend

Easily ignored.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Well given 70% of occupiers are fully employed

And more than one group is registering voters and damn it, they vote...careful with those stereotypes there.

[joeglow3]

133. I am going with decades of evidence

I agree we need to change it. However, I am extremely skeptical of it happening (and keeping it up, as every election has 4 years worth of new voters we need to convince).

[aquart]

33. Improving for whom?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Why do you think I used quotation marks?

But indeed I have read that point here, economy improves, they go away

[Hawkowl]

34. What is the "ECONOMY"?

Is the economy merely a measure of profits? Or is it a measure of employment? A measure of starving children or a measure of how much of the country is owned by the 1%?

Too many Americans are ignorant about what is meant by the economy and simply believe the economy is defined by the Dow Jones Industrial average.

The economy should be defined simply as wages. Too many Americans only learn this when their wages suddenly cease.

[MineralMan]

36. Who is saying what you put in quotes?

I'm sure OWS will be around in one form or another. However, as the nation moves into election year mode, it's going to have lots of competition from traditional politics.

[JDPriestly]

48. I hope that the economy really is improving.

But until there are enough jobs and until wages rise to enable people to buy houses and pay off mortgages, I don't think Occupy will go away.

I got a call from a woman this morning who was desperate because she is being foreclosed.

Occupy needs to keep the economy in the forefront of everyone's minds.

Buy American as much as we can. Buy locally as often as we can.

Come together to provide emotional support if not material support for those who are suffering.

That's how we can change our society.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

54. I was standing in a line behind a middle-age woman who was desperate (and embarassed)

because she couldn't come up with $3.16.

She was dressed like any other middle-aged, middle-class woman but she apparently didn't know how to get food stamps or how to yet give up her dignity without having tears in her eyes.

[JDPriestly]

115. We have a friend -- middle-aged also -- who

does not have enough to pay her rent or buy groceries. She relies on friends to help her out.

We suggested she apply for food stamps, but she said she has too much money. I can't believe that, because I know that she doesn't have money. She has a part-time job, but she earns far too little.

I don't know what the limits are on the amount of money a person can have to qualify for food stamps at this time.

I see more and more homeless people now. And, as you pointed out, these are not people who game the system. They can't even figure the system out. They are new to it, and they want no part in it.

I also have a friend who was crying recently at a meeting I attended. She told me her daughter had just come home from university. I assume that her daughter, like her son just a few years ago, is a college graduate now and can't get a job. My friend and her husband are having a very tough time, and now, at a point in their lives when they thought they had supported their children through college, they will have to continue to provide for at least one, if not two, of them.

The tradition in the US is that urban adults live independently from their families. That may change. We, like other third world countries, may have to accept the fact that children will live with their parents until the parents die. That has not been our way of life, but it could change.

[jwirr]

49. The economy is going to have to improve a lot more before I stop wanting it to get better. I suspect

that OWS is thinking this way also. And we need to remember it is not just the economy that is messed up. We have a lot to do.

[Major Hogwash]

58. OWS is dead in New York City.

They also kicked them out of some other parks in other cities.

[Initech]

62. OWS is dead for now but it will come back in another form.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. That is news to me

and I am sure OWS.

[pinboy3niner]

70. And news to the 200 OWSers who protested NDAA at Grand Central yesterday

And to the three who were arrested.

[Major Hogwash]

78. 200, you say.

Well, I hate to say this, but there are quite a few bars here that hold more patrons than that, and have at least 3 people arrested on a slow Saturday night in the fall every single year.

[pinboy3niner]

114. Moving the goalposts

First the movement is "dead," then evidence of activity doesn't meet some new, arbitrary threshhold for crowd size (at 5pm on a workday). And more people are arrested in bar fights than at a peaceful demonstration--imagine that!

200 was not bad for a flash mob announced only the afternoon before as one of a series of spontaneous demonstrations that day:

7:30AM (All Day) – OWS solidarity with the New York State Nurses Association Strike at St. Lukes (1111 Amsterdam Ave and 112th Street) and Roosevelt Hospital (1000 10th Ave and 59th Street.)

12PM – Press Conference at NYPL (Bryant Park)

2PM – Office Demonstration at Senator Gillibrand’s office (780 3rd Ave.)

3PM – Office Demonstration at Senator Schumer’s office (757 3rd Ave.)

4PM – Rally at Rockefeller Plaza

5PM – Flash check about NDAA in Grand Central for commuters.

After, we plan to march up 5th ave to do a demo tour of 1 percent homes.

http://www.occupywallst.org/article/j3-call-action-against-ndaa/

[FreakinDJ]

67. Where have you been ?

They had protest just yesterday

Retook Freedom Park New Years Eve

[Major Hogwash]

76. No, that's not quite true or accurate.

They entered the park for about 30 minutes before they went into the streets and then were arrested.

Gee, I read about it the other day -- right here at the DU.

[2pooped2pop]

181. have you looked in the buildings?

lol, they are warm. Mmmmm. Thank you very much. Warm, alive and kicking. Lots of time to plan now.

Lots of time to work now. Lots of things to do. Internet access, beds, food. Ahhh. Much better now. Warm warm, no need for tents.

Lots of planning. Lots of work. Lots of time. Thank you for kicking us out of the park. lol much better now, friend.

Expect us, as some say.

[Initech]

60. CEO pay to worker pay: 475:1.

If that ratio doesn't alarm you think about this - they get it all, we fight for the right to hold the billboard at the street corner. It's not right!!

[socialist_n_TN]

132. And this is the MAIN reason that the Occupy movement will NOT

go away. It might morph (I actually hope it does morph into something more like Occupy Oakland, a militant group joining hands with the working class to REALLY fuck with their money), but as long as this kind of economic inequity exists, Occupy will exist AND grow.

As I've always said, the best recruiter for Marxism is the capitalist system itself. Because they won't change, this economic INJUSTICE will just keep growing.

BTW for the doubters, the Occupy movement has generated a LOT of discussion for a social movement that's less than 4 months old. There was an article in the Tennessean about Occupy Nashville today. One of several that have been on the front page in this red state newspaper over the last few months. As several posters have pointed out, at least we're not TALKING about only cuts in services now. We're talking about the reasons BEHIND those cuts. That's a LOT of progress for that short of a time frame.

[frazzled]

61. Why do you put quotes around something nobody has ever said?

As if people were really saying this.

That's the kind of tactic that Fox News uses, the old "some people say" trick. I didn't get farther than your headline. I don't do alt-hist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Because it has been said here in several threads

Sorry if I do not have the actual threads or posts to give you... but it has...

(It is also a new talking point in my local media by the way)

[zappaman]

72. Making up quotes to argue against is weak.

Look for my thread later that I will argue against entitled "Obama kills kittens".

[girl gone mad]

93. It was clearly a paraphrase.

Why are you nagging the poster over such nonsense?

It's truly bad form.

[zappaman]

98. a quote is a paraphrase?

clearly a quote.
know how to tell?
there are quotes marks on either side of the statement.
shall I explain paraphrases next?

LOL

[girl gone mad]

101. Really?

You think grammar nazism is the way to go here?

[zappaman]

103. no I think making up quotes is wrong.

FOX news does it all the time.
You're okay with that?
Oh, and I'm not a nazi, but thanks for that!

[girl gone mad]

108. I think one would have to be fairly dim..

to interpret the OP as a direct quotation from one specific person.

Dimmer still to try to derail political discussion on a political forum using condescending grammar corrections.

[zappaman]

109. yes, it certainly would be dim to think an assertion with quotes marks on either end was a quote!

"girl gone mad is fairly dim"
I disagree with that, just so you know...

[2pooped2pop]

182. +1

agree

[lonestarnot]

136. So you think that's funny? It looks more like harassment to me. Get a grip.

[zappaman]

138. Awwwwww

pointing out someone is making up quotes to argue against is harassment?
Get a grip.

[lonestarnot]

146. You didn't point out shit but hubris of your own.

[U4ikLefty]

154. OMC is that you?

[SammyWinstonJack]

253. ...

[frazzled]

120. Show me the money

I'm not nagging: this is a serious question of tactics. Either there is proof that someone said this or not. I, personally, have not seen anyone say it. As I said before, that's a scuzzy Fox-News-type journalistic ploy, the old "some people say" routine.

We needn't waste our time with straw-man arguments here.

[Fire Walk With Me]

63. And the new college semester is about to start.

UC Davis, after the Lt. D. Pike incident, are understandably hesitant to get in students' way of again protesting...let's see what happens

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. That should be interesting

by the way, going over file, and today got a piece of software to help code the ebooks. It is from the same company I have one piece of writing software, so that should make it easier... I hope.

[Fire Walk With Me]

74. Yes! :) nt

[totodeinhere]

69. It will not go away. The economy is improving so slowly that lots of people don't even notice it.

If you are one of the millions who are still unemployed or underemployed the economy is not improving for you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Why I used quotation marks

the economy is improving if you look at unemployment numbers. Do not look into the U-6 though... or you are in for some nasty.

Also the jobs created are not ones that allow for a middle class lifestyle... (this is a global problem, flattening if wages is a goal of neoliberals everywhere)

This is a protest against pretty structural problems.

[bvar22]

84. This was predicted by Ross Perot when he told the truth about the effects of NAFTA in 1992.

he stated that eventually, jobs WILL return to the USA,
...when wages and benefits fall to 3rd World level.

&feature=player_embedded

They KNEW,
and raped the American Working Class anyway.

Is there any difference between the two dominant Parties on "Free Trade" and "Free Markets"?



You will know them by their WORKS.

[font size=5 color=green][center]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[ciaoant1]

88. 1994 - GATT

Here is Sir James Goldsmith talking about the integration of China into the world market, way back in 1994. A truly prophetic interview:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5064665078176641728&hl=en

[LadyInAZ]

159. I AGREE

I dont see an improvement in jobs, social services benefits, healthcare, or any hint of evidence that economy has improved... until ihave a job in my choosen field, that i spent years educating for... and paid middle class salary that was striped from me... then the economy has not improved or started to repair its self...

no one in congress has stepped to home plate and re-opened the job market for millions of americans... i only see ppl not born on this soil sitting in jobs inland or overseas pocketing money that should be given to americans instead... none of companies have been held accountable for taking our tax dollars from treasuary by way of stimulos nor planning on repaying debit owed.

let a common worker owe debit and see how fast the company persue you for their money or item... take you to court, threaten you, even aid in you losing your job from all the harassing phone calls HR receives... it not good when they borrow and refuse to pay back... but let us borrow, lose job, house, car, savings... things we had to work hard for.... look how quickly the step in to take it back...

perhaps that is what government should do... TAKE IT BACK.... redistribute it back to the ppl who is in need...

Occupy is here to stay until things have been set right with the 99%....

[ciaoant1]

85. Protests are here to stay - butwill they successful?

"If China," says Mr. Stapleton, M.P., to his constituents, "should become a great manufacturing country, I do not see how the manufacturing population of Europe could sustain the contest without descending to the level of their competitors." (Times, Sept. 3, 1873, p. 8.).
http://whataboutmarx.blogspot.com/2012/01/echoes-of-past-who-are-john-stapleton.html

---

Citigroup tells it like it is (it is a "plutonomy": http://whataboutmarx.blogspot.com/2012/01/citigroup-tells-it-like-it-is.html

[socialist_n_TN]

148. That depends on how big they get and how much

the working class is involved in the process.

[bemildred]

94. Non sequitur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28literary_device%29

Full employment would do the job, I would think, but full employment and a "good economy" don't seem to be connected any more.

[malaise]

113. The OWs are going nowhere

Bravo OWs!

[Rex]

116. If that is the agenda of operatives, then it will fail.

They can yell it from the streets...OWS will be around methinks for a long time to come. It isn't about the economy, but about the people that made it that way imo.

[librechik]

126. OWS is not really about the economy. It's about equality. Therefore

as long as the vast and multilayered inequality in the US remains, OWS will be relevant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Yup, the economy is just one part of it

correct.

[obliviously]

130. Right on!

Mao said all should be equal!

[lonestarnot]

135. Take a look at tuition hikes, food hikes, everything but wages hikes. Nope not going afuckingway.

Indeed about to see another round of foreclosures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Yup, but indeed some folks still do believe that it will go away

just read the thread...

[lonestarnot]

139. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[Monty22001]

152. Hey

Shouldn't the goal of the OWS be an improving economy with more jobs? Maybe it should go away if the job situation is back to 'normal'?

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Actually dealing with the economic situation

is part of what OWS wants to do... it is under the rubric of ECONOMIC JUSTICE.

[Summer Hathaway]

155. I keep hearing/reading about

all the great things OWS wants to do.

The question remains: How do they plan to DO it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Well if you pay attention you will find out

you might want to try following them online... I mean it's not like they are not registering voters, they are... even going to jail for it. It's not like GA's are not considering what petitions to work on and which not to. It's not like they are not fully participating in the political system... oh wait... they are.

Some are even running for office... I know... amazing given elite media paradigms that tell you that they are shiftless and have no plan.

In classic poli sci terms it is called activating a political cadre, which is now fully engaged. They are no longer consumers of the political process, but fully actualized citizens. They are the most dangerous type by the way...

[Summer Hathaway]

157. You haven't answered the question

How does OWS plan to accomplish their goals?

Who is running for office, and on what platform?

"They are no longer consumers of the political process, but fully actualized citizens."

What does that even mean?

"The most dangerous type" - in what sense?

You're in this 24/7, Nadin. If you can't come up with some cogent answers, why not?

I've seen enough 'classic poli sci terms' to last a lifetime - and it all sounds like poli sci babble to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. My lord, I did

And yes i can. there is right now one man running for office against one Daryl Issa, not as a democrat. You might want to ask why not? Well simply put, the Democratic party ABANDONED that district a few terms ago.

He is running on an OCCUPY CONGRESS platform. You might also understand ME LINKING to him, or even mentioning his name is a TOS violation. Mentioning this is borderline for THIS SITE. Suffice it to say, that will be (with name even, and link) in the essay I am polishing off. Oh and he is extremely progressive. I might even pound pavement for him, I mean not like the dems will run anybody anyway. They haven't in years.

I have listed in the past that they are registering voters.

I have mentioned in the past that they are NOW voting on what petitions to gather signatures... in fact there is a post of the latest here, right now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002121244

They are going to city council like every week... and other places in city government.

They are going to congress...

They are doing all these things that are quite political in the sense that YOU might understand the term to be.

And sorry for the political science lingo. an activated cadre means exactly that, a group of people who is NOW politically active.

I am quite tired of actually answering the same question over and over and over again... sorry...

[Summer Hathaway]

160. No, you didn't

a"I have mentioned in the past that they are NOW voting on what petitions to gather signatures..."

How does OWS plan to accomplish what they want?

"They are going to city council like every week... and other places in city government."

How does OWS plan to accomplish their goals - besides going to city council like every week?

"They are going to congress..."

Cool. How does OWS plan to accomplish their goals?

"And sorry for the political science lingo. an activated cadre means exactly that, a group of people who is NOW politically active."

I didn't ask what an activated cadre was. I asked what you meant by "They are no longer consumers of the political process, but fully actualized citizens."

I also asked what "The most dangerous type" meant.

We've danced this little waltz before, Nadin. You refuse to answer direct questions with the response that you are tired of answering the same question over and over again. But you never actually answer the question.

HOW DOES OWS PLAN TO ACCOMPLISH ITS GOALS?

It's a simple, straightforward question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

203. And I take it sitting on the couch, which is what some folks secretly want, works

Consider this the last answer to this recording. My table is far better to having an actual conversation.

I mean stupid OWSers, they should just vote and let the adults handle things. How damn authoritarian.

So let me see my list, you, randome and a true hack... Have a good day...

Oh and this is not a recording.

[randome]

205. Then stop telling us how important OWS is.

Just post a daily/weekly/whatever account of what OWS has done and we can decide for ourselves how important it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

207. This is a recording

[Summer Hathaway]

218. Well, I guess I have my answer

of sorts.

When asked how OWS plans to achieve its goals, you replied with insults, and a feigned sense of persecution.

I guess the short answer is: you have absolutely NO idea how they plan to achieve anything.

[randome]

219. At least you didn't get on their 'list' like hack89 and I did.

On edit: Sorry, you DID get on their list. Damn, I thought we might have someone on the outside who could work for our freedom.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. This is a recording

(Actual answers confused with insults)

Definitely this is a recording

[zappaman]

221. I disagree

There is NOTHING feigned about this sense of persecution.
We must NEVER DISAGREE with anyone who is always right.
We must genuflect daily to the this wisdom.
Things are gonna happen...you'll see...surprises...
This is a recording.

[nadinbrzezinski]

238. Ah how nice, personal attack

I love you too.

[zappaman]

244. Doesn't seem like a personal attack

Seems like it is complimentary.
After all, there aren't a lot of people who know EVERYTHING about ANYTHING!

[randome]

167. This will be my last post on this thread. (Maybe).

The thread title controversy is a problem. You see, no one ever wanted OWS to 'go away' except for the mayors whose job it is to keep public parks available for everyone.

And guess what? They succeeded. For the most part, OWS has 'gone away' from public spaces. Game over.

Instead of posting more and more threads about how OWS has NOT lost that battle (when, in fact, it has) how about you post OWS accomplishments? That will surely send a positive message, give little ammo for detractors, and keep the focus on where it belongs -goals and accomplishments.

All these other threads you have started to remind us that the revolution is just around the corner? People don't care about vague promises like that. You come across as wanting to engage in conflict and see yourselves as victims.

You say OWS is marching forward? Give us a thread title or two that lists those accomplishments and stop portraying yourself as a victim.

IMO.

[hack89]

185. + 1 nt

[2pooped2pop]

194. people do keep posting OWS accomplishments

and you and and the other guy who is not your friend comes to bash them all it seems. Posting the same ol "they are nothing" and other crap.

You really do sound like you need some tea. Camomile is pretty tasty, and calming.


Now, let me see if I can figure this out a minute here. One of you works for the dem party. Is that right? So would I be wrong in guessing that whoever you support is not likely to get help from Occupy, as he or she is not seen as someone not on the take, or as someone who works for the people. So your local office will probably be one that would be Mic checked rather than supported and you would like to see OWS go away if it won't blindly endorse dems?

Any of that hit the nail for you or hack?

[hack89]

197. You, like Nadine, keep mistaking action for accomplishments

what permanent change in law or policy have they manage to bring about?

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. This is a recording.

[hack89]

222. I really was not expecting you to venture into new territory

OWS is new and shiny and exciting - it is way to early for you to be questioning your decisions.

Love is blind - we have all been there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. This is a recording

Of talking point five.

[hack89]

226. So the intellectual depth of OWS is revealed. Thanks! nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

228. This is a recording of talking point number one

[Zorra]

212. We now have a black President. How long did it take for MLK/Civil rights movement to accomplish

their goals?

How many years of protest and other direct action did it take for women to even get the right to vote?

You appear to be mistaking laws and policies as the only accomplishments of a movement.

Permanent changes made to the national dialogue/national consciousness are very often the cause of laws and policies being enacted.

Wars are won through a series of successful battles. This is not Burger king. You don't get it your way, and you don't get it now, and it ain't on the value menu.

With all due respect, it seems that there is an endemic lack of knowledge and insight about the present that stems from not knowing the past. The lessons of history are lost on those who don't know their past and therefore have no way to learn from it.

Frail Grasp on the Big Picture

Well ain't it a shame 'bout our short little memory
We never seem to learn the lessons of history
We keep making the same mistakes - over and over and over and over again
And then we wonder why we're in the shape we're in

Good ol' boys down at the bar
Peanuts and politics
They think they know it all
They don't know much of nothin'
Even if one of 'em was to read a newspaper, cover to cover
That ain't what's going on
Journalism dead and gone

Frail grasp on the big picture
Light fading and the fog is getting thicker
Frail grasp on the big picture
Dark ages

And you, my love-drunk friend
All that red wine and candlelight
Soulful conversations that go on until the dawn
How many times can you tell your story
How many hangovers can you endure - just to get some snogging done
You're living in a hormone dream
You don't have the slightest notion what long-term love is all about
All your romantic liaisons don't deal with eternal questions like:
"Who left the cap off the freakin' toothpaste?" "Whose turn to take the garbage out?"

Frail grasp on the big picture
You keep on rubbing that, you're gonna get a blister
Frail grasp on the big picture
I've seen it all before

And we pray to our lord, who we know is American
He reigns from on high
He speaks to us through middlemen
And he shepherds his flock
We sing out and praise his name
He supports us in war
He presides over football games
And the right will prevail
All our troubles will be resolved
We hold faith above all
Unless there's money or sex involved

Frail grasp on the big picture
Nobody's calling them for roughing up the kicker
It's a frail grasp on the big picture
Heaven help us

Frail grasp on the big picture
All waiting for that miracle elixir
Frail grasp on the big picture
I don't wonder anymore

Frail grasp on the big picture
You brought her here, so go ahead and kiss her
It's a frail grasp on the big picture
(Eagles; lyrics Don Henley)

[randome]

214. With all due respect...

...I am neither black nor a woman but I think conflating OWS with civil rights or women's equality is pretentious.

We always seem to end up arguing about whether or not OWS is of value.

IT IS! There! I said it!

Now can you please stop posting threads that remind us how important OWS is and start posting threads that tell us what it has accomplished?

That is all that's necessary to bring more comity to these threads.

We don't want to hear about nebulous 'surprises' in the future. What has OWS managed to do lately?

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. This is a recording.

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. You are correct my friend

I should add the anti slavery movement, which took from the 1740s when it first took form with the Society, to the civil war. And then there is labor, starting in the 1740s and taking all the way to the 1930s. We are now in a new era of labor struggle as well.

[hack89]

223. And we may have a white president next year

if OWS doesn\'t gain a sense of urgency and get involved with the election.

[nadinbrzezinski]

229. This is a recording of talking point number two

[hack89]

232. LaLaLaLaLaL - now that is an intellectual retort! Bravo!. nt

[hack89]

233. Actually I think it is point number four - but I might have lost track. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

237. That's all YOU GOT LEFT...

Wow!

You know for a bunch of nobodies you spend a lot of time repeating the same talking points.


So talking points it is... You are a nice set of recordings.

Have a good day...

And yes, this is a recording of a personal attack.

[hack89]

239. Since you want to talk in short hand, why can't I?

I like the CAPS - they add so much intellectual depth to your post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. Actually you are not worth it...

Not at all, please continue with the personal attacks.

[hack89]

242. It was worth another post from you - something I will treasure. nt

[2pooped2pop]

245. so it's all up to OWS now?

from accomplishing nothing to being responsible for losing the next election.

Nope, no influence at all.


Truly, I can't understand why anyone who is "for the people" (yes, those are mother fucking quotes) would want to bash anythng that is OWS. It makes no sense. None. Your post read just like.......and they are all the same. You are desperate to nullify OWS. Doing more than your congressman? Competition of some strange sort?

makes no sense. But I get it. I get it.

[hack89]

246. Either they are a game changing national movement or they are not

Last edited Thu Jan 5, 2012, 10:15 PM - Edit history (1)

they have the potential to bring such change about but so far they have not shown the ability to create and wield political power. It will be a close election - their participation could be critical.

But OWS refuses to unequivocally say they support Democrats. Do you think OWS should unequivocally say they support the reelection of the President?

[2pooped2pop]

247. they will support those that support the people

do the democrats fall into that catagory? Only some of them.
Does the president? Lots of republican ass kissing done by him. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Sorry we haven't been able to jump in and pull the country out of the shithole your politicians have created with their wall street support.

but be sure to keep up the same ol,same ol. It's been working so well for the people.

Keep putting down the only action to come around in 50 years that has a chance. You show that some dem offices are really not for the people at all. What a shame.

[hack89]

248. Call me when OWS puts a million people on the Mall in DC

either they are a national movement or they are not. Either they can mobilize the people or they cannot. Either they can make the "system" fear them or they cannot.

In the meantime I plan to work to reelect President Obama. I hope you can join me.

[SammyWinstonJack]

255. I don't get it. Not at all. Seems some here want it both ways. Why anyone other than the

1% would spend time trying to convince others that OWS is irrelevant, is mind boggling.


Seems more like they are trying to convince their self and for what reason, I can't imagine.

[randome]

198. Damn! You found us out! I congratulate you, Mr. 2pooped2pop!

Now can the OWS adherents please start posting threads about what their accomplishments are and not pointless threads like this one about how they are not going away?

No one wants them to go away except, as I pointed out, the mayors of the cities they invaded. And those mayors succeeded. Game over.

We want to hear about the concrete results OWS is getting and not vague promises of some unspecified action in the nebulous future.

Here's a suggested thread title for you: OWS Status - 1/5/12. Not more of this 'we will never die' crap. You already lost the battle for taking over public parks. If OWS is something more than that, stop reminding yourselves and everyone else that you lost that battle with thread titles like 'OWS is never going away'.

I guarantee you more DUers will be much more supportive if we have a clearer idea of what OWS is actually doing. NOW, not tomorrow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

206. This is a recording

[randome]

210. Guys. Help me out, here.

I think I broke nadinbrzenzinski.

Can I get in trouble for that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. Alas it's about you

Every time you post same talking points, it's the same recording.

My table, now that's something we can talk to...even the two parrots respond better, in spite of their squaks.

So keep repeating yourself, please do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

235. Milk, it does a body good