mitt romney: Church State Separation Taken Too Far By Some...oh really mitt?

[Philosoraptor]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/21/mitt-romney-separation-church-state_n_1817764.html


Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney believes that "some" Americans have taken the separation of church and state too far, "well beyond its original meaning."

In an interview released Tuesday with the Washington National Cathedral's magazine, Cathedral Age, Romney said those who "seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God" aren't acting in line with the Founders' intent.

The separation of church and state is enshrined in the First Amendment of the Constitution, but Congress and the courts have debated the practical extent of that separation since its founding.

Romney said the Founders didn't intend for "the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation 'Under God, 'and in God, we do indeed trust."

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Dear Mittens, I'm a citizen of the United States and I say 'no'. We are not

a nation 'Under God' nor do we 'In God, we trust'.

[snooper2]

2. too early to go fundie Mittens, don't shoot your wad yet

[Animal Chin]

3. not a newsflash for folks here, but

both of the phrases "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and "in God we trust" on our money were added in the 1950s, largely as a reaction to the threat of communism.

To look at the Founders' intent, one need only look at the Constitution itself. It mentions God (and all derivatives thereof, including Lord, Creator, Maker, etc.) exactly ONE time, and that is to denote the date as "year of our Lord," which was the custom at the time (and not indiciative of religious intent since the dating system (the Gregorian Calendar?) that happens to be accepted worldwide is based on Christianity).

The Constitution mentions religion twice. Once to say no religous test shall be required of the President and that Congress shall make no law respecting the institution of religion.

[riverbendviewgal]

4. The only mention of God in the constitution is in relation to the date.

see http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#god

God

It has often been seen on the Internet that to find God in the Constitution, all one has to do is read it, and see how often the Framers used the words "God," or "Creator," "Jesus," or "Lord." Except for one notable instance, however, none of these words ever appears in the Constitution, neither the original nor in any of the Amendments. The notable exception is found in the Signatory section, where the date is written thusly: "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The use of the word "Lord" here is not a religious reference, however. This was a common way of expressing the date, in both religious and secular contexts. This lack of any these words does not mean that the Framers were not spiritual people, any more than the use of the word Lord means that they were. What this lack of these words is expositive of is not a love for or disdain for religion, but the feeling that the new government should not involve itself in matters of religion. In fact, the original Constitution bars any religious test to hold any federal office in the United States. For more information, see the Religion Topic Page.
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#church
The Separation Of Church and State

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the 1st Amendment erected a "wall of separation" between the church and the state (James Madison said it "drew a line," but it is Jefferson's term that sticks with us today). The phrase is commonly thought to mean that the government should not establish, support, or otherwise involve itself in any religion. The Religion Topic Page addresses this issue in much greater detail.
Thanks to Pat Roche for the idea.

[Buns_of_Fire]

5. Now Romney and his ilk think they can read the Founders' minds.

Retroactively, of course.

[spanone]

6. i bet mitt romney has never read the constitution

republican goal: THEOCRACY

[ananda]

7. No widdle Mitt, that is not the problem.

The problem we have is with people who don't
take it far enough.

[DreamGypsy]

8. Mitt Romney thinks Joe McCarthy was a founding father ...

From the article Romney is quoted as saying:

the Founders didn't intend for "the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation 'Under God, 'and in God, we do indeed trust.

OK, so we have those funky "to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" and "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" in the Declaration of Independence. Can't really get around those, but the Declaration doesn't have legal standing in the courts.

So, when did we become a nation "Under God"? Well, that phrase entered the vernacular in our Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

and the Pledge of Allegiance is, as WikiPedia says,

... an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.[1] The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954.

Inciting nationalism is a common practice in times of war. Getting God involved helped bring the Catholics into the fold for the anti-Communist campaigns by the HUAC.

... and "In God We Trust" (WikiPedia again):

The phrase appears to have originated in the Star-Spangled Banner, written during the War of 1812. The fourth stanza includes the phrase, "And this be our motto: 'In God is our Trust.'"

Come on, people! You all know the fourth stanza. Sing along! It's the one that comes after

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave

Can't let the British stop our slaughter of Native Americans, right?

"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782....

In God we trust has appeared on U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957.

In 1956, the nation was going through the height of the Cold War. As a result, the 84th Congress passed a joint resolution to replace the existing motto with "In God we trust". The change was partly motivated by a desire to differentiate between communism, which promotes atheism, and Western capitalistic democracies, which were at least nominally Christian. The law was signed by President Eisenhower on July 30, 1956, and the motto was progressively added to paper money over a period from 1957 to 1966. (Public Law 84-851)[16] The United States Code at 36 U.S.C. § 302, now states: "'In God we trust' is the national motto."

In 2006, on the 50th anniversary of its adoption, the Senate reaffirmed "In God we trust" as the official national motto of the United States of America. In 2011 the House of Representatives passed an additional resolution reaffirming "In God we trust" as the official motto of the United States, in a 396-9 vote. According to a 2003 joint poll by USA Today, CNN, and Gallup, 90% of Americans support the inscription "In God We Trust" on U.S. coins

Do you think Mittens has wasted more than five minute$$$ of his preciou$$$ time understanding the history behind the statements the stooges write for him?? Nah, neither do I.

[hfojvt]

11. "under God" came from at least 1863

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm

and then there is the American school system. As the Oxford Companion to SCOTUS begins its section of School Prayer

"Early American organized education was religious in character and content. From the time public education began to spread in the 1820s and 1830s until after WWII, most public elementary and secondary schools in America included daily Bible reading and prayer." p. 886

and they write in their section on religion

"On the other hand, clearly the (Establishment) clause was not intended to eliminate religious establishments then existing in several states, And the new federal government gave various supports to religion such as legislative prayers, presidential Thanksgiving proclamations, and religious missions to Native Americans." p. 836

[DreamGypsy]

12. The old man had to die. Death became a transition to a new Union and a new humanity.

On the Gettysburg address, once again from WikiPedia:

Usage of "under God"

The words "under God" do not appear in the Nicolay and Hay drafts but are included in the three later copies (Everett, Bancroft, and Bliss). Accordingly, some skeptics maintain that Lincoln did not utter the words "under God" at Gettysburg.[62][63] However, at least three reporters telegraphed the text of Lincoln's speech on the day the Address was given with the words "under God" included. Historian William E. Barton argues that:[64]

Every stenographic report, good, bad and indifferent, says 'that the nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom.' There was no common source from which all the reporters could have obtained those words but from Lincoln's own lips at the time of delivery. It will not do to say that [Secretary of War] Stanton suggested those words after Lincoln's return to Washington, for the words were telegraphed by at least three reporters on the afternoon of the delivery.

The reporters present included Joseph Gilbert, from the Associated Press; Charles Hale, from the Boston Advertiser;[65] John R. Young (who later became the Librarian of Congress), from the Philadelphia Press; and reporters from the Cincinnati Commercial,[66] New York Tribune,[67] and New York Times.[67] Charles Hale "had notebook and pencil in hand, [and] took down the slow-spoken words of the President".[68] "He took down what he declared was the exact language of Lincoln's address, and his declaration was as good as the oath of a court stenographer. His associates confirmed his testimony, which was received, as it deserved to be at its face value."[69] One explanation is that Lincoln deviated from his prepared text and inserted the phrase when he spoke. Ronald C. White, visiting professor of history at the University of California – Los Angeles and professor of American religious history emeritus at the San Francisco Theological Seminary, wrote in this context of Lincoln’s insertion and usage of "Under God":

It was an uncharacteristically spontaneous revision for a speaker who did not trust extemporaneous speech. Lincoln had added impromptu words in several earlier speeches, but always offered a subsequent apology for the change. In this instance, he did not. And Lincoln included "under God" in all three copies of the address he prepared at later dates. "Under God" pointed backward and forward: back to "this nation," which drew its breath from both political and religious sources, but also forward to a "new birth." Lincoln had come to see the Civil War as a ritual of purification. The old Union had to die. The old man had to die. Death became a transition to a new Union and a new humanity.[3]

[hifiguy]

9. Speak for yourself, shitheel.

I choose to stand with Thomas Jefferson.

[jsr]

10. Magic underwear for everyone