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Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:47 AM

Republicans basically admit that Harry Reid's maneuver was BRILLIANT


Republican sources say they're in a Catch-22 situation on how to reply to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's claims that GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney went 10 years without paying taxes.

They understand that they're taking Reid's bait and that responding to his unsubstantiated claims against Romney to keeps alive the issue of Romney's refusing to release his tax returns.

Still, these GOP sources say they feel that if they do not respond to such a serious charge from such a high-ranking Democrat, it will look like a tacit admission Reid is right.

Republicans stepped up attempts to undermine Reid's unsubstantiated allegations Monday, saying Reid and other Democrats' accusations are being orchestrated by President Barack Obama's campaign -- specifically his senior campaign adviser, David Axelrod.



http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/07/politics/reid-romney-taxes/index.html



Harry's move was brilliant in so many ways. There is literally NO way the Republicans can respond that doesn't make them look bad:

1. Ignore it. Oops! This is a "tacit admission Reid is right".

2. Release the returns. Oops! This would be an EXPLICIT admission that Reid is right and would destroy Romney's campaign.

3. Attack Harry Reid, calling him a liar. Oops! The follow-up to the claims of "Harry is a liar!" is to be forced to prove it. See #2.



As soon as Reid did this last week, many of us said that the GOP was in a box. And the subsequent week has proven that. The GOP and Romney have not had an effective response to Harry Reid yet, and this is STILL the only thing the media is talking about.


As soon as Romney names his VP candidate, the stories about that person releasing dozens of tax returns to Romney will come out. And then there will be another wave of questions about Romney not releasing his.


Politically speaking, it doesn't even matter anymore if Romney releases them. If he does, nobody will believe that they weren't "laundered" before being released. If he doesn't, the drip-drip-drip continues.



All the money raised by Romney can't help him here, as long as we keep the pressure on publicly. And I don't see any evidence that Dems will back off.

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Reply Republicans basically admit that Harry Reid's maneuver was BRILLIANT (Original post)
scheming daemons Aug 2012 OP
nc4bo Aug 2012 #1
southernyankeebelle Aug 2012 #12
leftyohiolib Aug 2012 #34
southernyankeebelle Aug 2012 #67
eridani Aug 2012 #104
southernyankeebelle Aug 2012 #108
Shadowflash Aug 2012 #33
Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2012 #36
freshwest Aug 2012 #45
Historic NY Aug 2012 #78
Historic NY Aug 2012 #77
sellitman Aug 2012 #84
Arkana Aug 2012 #2
ananda Aug 2012 #3
BadgerKid Aug 2012 #22
Proud Liberal Dem Aug 2012 #4
SunSeeker Aug 2012 #43
tavalon Aug 2012 #62
Kennah Aug 2012 #101
Proud Liberal Dem Aug 2012 #5
HopeHoops Aug 2012 #21
Myrina Aug 2012 #47
Proud Liberal Dem Aug 2012 #49
aquart Aug 2012 #73
Lil Missy Aug 2012 #6
yardwork Aug 2012 #16
SteveG Aug 2012 #7
coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #15
DefenseLawyer Aug 2012 #30
Javaman Aug 2012 #37
SunSeeker Aug 2012 #46
JDPriestly Aug 2012 #94
unblock Aug 2012 #8
marlakay Aug 2012 #27
unblock Aug 2012 #38
aquart Aug 2012 #72
Dustin DeWinde Aug 2012 #86
unblock Aug 2012 #87
Dustin DeWinde Aug 2012 #88
NYC Liberal Aug 2012 #9
klook Aug 2012 #68
bemildred Aug 2012 #10
n2doc Aug 2012 #11
coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #17
rational_democrat Aug 2012 #13
pscot Aug 2012 #18
coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #19
SunSeeker Aug 2012 #53
freshwest Aug 2012 #57
mercuryblues Aug 2012 #20
Frustratedlady Aug 2012 #31
mercuryblues Aug 2012 #89
arely staircase Aug 2012 #23
karynnj Aug 2012 #24
marlakay Aug 2012 #28
SunSeeker Aug 2012 #54
MADem Aug 2012 #56
tavalon Aug 2012 #63
coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #14
canEHdian Aug 2012 #25
KharmaTrain Aug 2012 #26
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #35
Javaman Aug 2012 #39
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #41
Javaman Aug 2012 #50
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #55
Javaman Aug 2012 #69
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #71
Javaman Aug 2012 #75
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #81
Javaman Aug 2012 #97
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #100
Wounded Bear Aug 2012 #76
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #83
KharmaTrain Aug 2012 #48
KharmaTrain Aug 2012 #40
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #42
Wounded Bear Aug 2012 #79
tavalon Aug 2012 #64
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #70
jeff47 Aug 2012 #85
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #92
jeff47 Aug 2012 #93
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #95
jeff47 Aug 2012 #96
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #98
jeff47 Aug 2012 #106
SunSeeker Aug 2012 #52
Berlum Aug 2012 #29
B Calm Aug 2012 #44
qb Aug 2012 #32
tavalon Aug 2012 #65
Volaris Aug 2012 #51
DallasNE Aug 2012 #58
tavalon Aug 2012 #59
Uncle Joe Aug 2012 #60
tavalon Aug 2012 #61
eridani Aug 2012 #105
tavalon Aug 2012 #109
kuus27 Aug 2012 #66
DefenseLawyer Aug 2012 #82
nxylas Aug 2012 #107
moondust Aug 2012 #74
Politicalboi Aug 2012 #80
Betsy Ross Aug 2012 #90
greyl Aug 2012 #102
tomm2thumbs Aug 2012 #91
allan01 Aug 2012 #99
Texas-Limerick Aug 2012 #103

Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:52 AM

1. Don't know about anyone else but I am going to enjoy every single second of this

It's about time we weren't on our heels.

I admit it, it feels bloody good and I shall continue to enjoy this clusterf*ck as long as I can.

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:51 AM

12. Totally agree with your comment. It's great for once sitting back and see the implosion of the

 

republican party.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #12)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:04 PM

34. it's nice to see them on the defense for once ... nt

 

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:58 PM

67. Your right. Payback is a bitch. You keep biting and sooner or later the dog is going to bite back.

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #12)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 05:47 AM

104. Wishful thinking. The Republican party will never implode--

--as long as there is fear and hatred to exploit.

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Response to eridani (Reply #104)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 10:59 AM

108. Sad but true.

 

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:03 PM

33. I agree

I don't know where the Democrats found their spines this time around but they need to keep it up.

Maybe they are FINALLY getting tired of being steamrolled and keeping their powder dry.

Whatever the reason, being on offense for a change feels great!

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Response to Shadowflash (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:14 PM

36. Harry is holding on to the Senate for dear life. He knows how high the stakes are in this election

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:35 PM

45. Yes, he's done every manuever to outwit the GOP House since 2010.

If the teahadists had control of the Senate now, consider how this nation would be if every oppressive measure from them was rubber stamped into law. Obama could veto at the cost of shutting down the government, which the want. He's done a tough and thankless job.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:12 PM

78. What really would kill them is if...

a document or sentence or 2 were suddenly to find their way to the top.

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Response to Shadowflash (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:10 PM

77. +1

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:53 PM

84. Star Trek: Ricardo Montoban:

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:52 AM

2. They think it's brilliant because it's the exact same thing

they would do.

It's using their own noise machine against them and I personally love it.

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Response to Arkana (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:53 AM

3. Happy smiley.

nt

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Response to Arkana (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:09 AM

22. Actually, they have done -- see Birthers. n/t

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:54 AM

4. Well, Politifact didn't have any problems with declaring Reid's assertions a "Pants-on-Fire" lie

Of course, I don't think they have seen Romney's tax returns nor proved that he doesn't have an anonymous source feeding him information, so their "opinion" means as much to me as Reince Priebus'.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:34 PM

43. Heard that on Rachel last night. Politifact has lost all credibility. nt

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:06 PM

62. Who?

Damn, don't you miss Michael Steel, he was always a barrel of laughs? Reince Priebus is a non entity.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #4)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 01:02 AM

101. Chances are Rmoney Hood paid something, so in that it is in all likelihood a lie.

But who the fuck cares? It's brilliant politics, and Rmoney Hood is boxed in.

Harry Reid is gambling, and it isn't really all that big of a gamble, that any political blowback against him will be so insignificant compared to that which Rmoney Hood will face, if Rmoney Hood ever releases his returns proving he paid at least something.

Harry Reid won re-election in 2010, and who will give a shit in Nevada about this in 2016? No one.

Whatever the reason Rmoney Hood is refusing to release his returns, it appears it will be a major shitstorm if he ever does release them.

Give 'em Hell, Harry!

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:58 AM

5. Romney is just "boxed in" in general

All he can really do is just lie and smear President Obama. He can't really talk about anything positive in terms of accomplishments without bringing up something questionable or derogatory and he won't talk in detail about his plans, so.............. The debates should be *interesting* to watch IMHO.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:05 AM

21. Yeah, I'm waiting to see the boxy bulge in the back of rMoney's suit jacket.

 

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:37 PM

47. LOL - opening sentence of Debate 1:

POTUS (taking paperwork from his pocket) "Here's my birth certificate. Mitt, got your tax returns on ya, by any chance?"

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Response to Myrina (Reply #47)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:40 PM

49. .................



That would have to be memorialized somehow!

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Response to Myrina (Reply #47)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:47 PM

73. Seriously, I would pay to see that.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:09 AM

6. IT's the kind of tactic they would do, only Reid is probably telling the truth and they usually lie.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #6)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:59 AM

16. Exactly. They screech at Obama to release his birth certificate, which he does over and over again.

Meanwhile, we have a real issue here - Romney is unwilling to release his tax returns. Why is that? What's he hiding? The problem won't go away. Drip drip drip.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:11 AM

7. It's the classic "When did you stop beating your wife?" gambit

And it's working.

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Response to SteveG (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:55 AM

15. He-he. It's the clasic "Let him deny he's a pig fucker" gambit (with

 

a tip of the hat to the long-passed LBJ

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Response to SteveG (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:54 AM

30. Not exactly

Last edited Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:42 PM - Edit history (1)

"When did you stop beating your wife?" has no direct answer to the question which isn't damning. Romney could theoretically have an answer this this question by releasing his tax returns showing the contrary. The beauty of this is that, now, as long as Romney continues to withhold them, it allows people to assume that "what Harry heard" may just be true. There has been a "what's he hiding?" question ever since Romney said he wasn't releasing his returns. Romney obviously calculated that whatever was in his returns must have been worse than any damage this speculation would cause. Harry flipped the whole thing on its ear. Now the speculation is very specific and terrible for Romney, making the tradeoff that much more difficult. Politics ain't beanbag.

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Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #30)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:17 PM

37. More like...

"If you didn't kill those people why won't you let us dig up your backyard?"

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Response to SteveG (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:37 PM

46. It's not like that. Mitt's not being asked to prove a negative.

All he has to do is produce his tax returns. As Axelrod says, he can disprove what Reid is saying in 11 seconds--just go to Kinko's and make a copy of the damn returns.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #46)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:03 PM

94. Considering how easy it would be, Romney's refusal to

produce his tax documents -- all of them for the past ten years -- is practically an admission of wrongdoing. What an idiot.

Why did he run for office if he has so much to hide?

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:21 AM

8. i remain stunned by the incompetence of the republicans this cycle.

first they box themselves in by running the governor who launched the health insurance reform at the state level. that SHOULD take away obama's signature legislative achievement, but they went all-in against the law, so they can't.

second, they box themselves in by running on his astounding business success then refuse to release tax returns, raising all sorts of speculation about the legitimacy and ethics and legality of his business dealings, charitable donations, foreign holdings, tax dodges, etc.

the gaffetastic overseas trip was just icing on the cake.

the first one is certainly not the fault of the rmoeny campaign itself, but a symptom of larger problems within the republican party. but the other problems are 100% creations of the rmoney campaign's stunning incompetence.

normally, republicans govern like crap but run impressive campaigns (democrats typically being the other way around).

it's amazing that with so much money they can't convert it into even basic campaign competence.

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Response to unblock (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:47 AM

27. I think what is happening is the party itself over the last 10-15 yrs

has gone so far right and voting in the crazies that young immature crazy people are making policy.

The older ones that know better are afraid they will get kicked out if they don't go along.

I don't think the republicans from day 1 are as good as our side on the internet. They send out a bunch of crazy emails but twitter and facebook and online media, I personally think our side is better.

So the youth will continue to trend to either the dems or nothing….they understand how nuts the right is.

I work with young people and always ask them what they are thinking about politics at large...

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Response to marlakay (Reply #27)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:20 PM

38. one can only hope that the old republicans dying off and hispanic influx pulls us back to the left.

and hopefully, republicans haven't completely destroyed our nation by the time that happens!

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Response to unblock (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:40 PM

72. Sometimes a lot of money buys you less.

Think about the bundles of cash in Iraq.

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Response to unblock (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 06:08 PM

86. The gop incompetence is not suprising

Years of extremism has forced the few republicans with working brain cells out of the party. What's left are the likes of Michele Bachmann Alan West and Sarah Palin. Combine that with a candidate who is a craven coward unable to stand up to his own right wing,, and the resulting ineptitude is predictable. of course we still have to give credit to the Dems for finally fighting back and showing that the GOP like every other bully, is apt to fold when people stand up to them..

By the way I see a lot of posts here end with "nt" what does that mean? And thanks to you all for providing such insightful and often amusing posts

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Response to Dustin DeWinde (Reply #86)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 06:16 PM

87. do you mean posts that end with "nt"?

those are posts where there is a subject header but "no text" in the body of the post.

it might keep you from wasting a click, and as you know, you only have so many clicks before you die....

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Response to unblock (Reply #87)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 06:43 PM

88. lol ty. thought i had edited that before anyone read it. but you answered my question. thanx. nt

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:26 AM

9. The reason they're scrambling is because they don't have a response to the question:

"If Reid is wrong or lying, can't Romney just release his tax returns and prove it?"

They can't claim Romney's taxes are totally clean while at the same time be making excuses for why he isn't or shouldn't release them.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:23 PM

68. Excellent framing

Two options:
1. Paid taxes, everything's above board.
2. Something to hide...Illegalities? Embarrassing details? What?

Until he releases the returns, as President Obama and Mr. Biden have done, the rampant speculation will continue.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:42 AM

10. It was "brilliant" because it was correct and verifiable,

and Mitt doesn't want to do that. The brilliance relies on Mitt's reluctance.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:50 AM

11. Theyare going with #3

Smear Reid any way they can, but don't mention anything about proving him wrong. Just assume Mittens isn't lying. Use a complicit MSM to spread the meme that Reid is the liar, without proving it.

As noted above , politifact has essentially done this. So has the Washington post. So have a bunch of political cartoonists and editorial columnists. You know it has hit a nerve when these folks howl in unison.

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Response to n2doc (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:00 AM

17. And now the set-up for a John Dean-type person to come forward to document

 

what Reid's source told Reid.

I vote for . . . during the Repig Convention

Check and double mate. Game, set and match. Makes the Eagleton Affair look like a simple PR SNAFU.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)


Response to rational_democrat (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:00 AM

18. Your concern

has been DUly noted.

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Response to rational_democrat (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:02 AM

19. You know that the government is leaking 'private citizen information' how exactly???? Please,

 

do tell.

What an ill-informed slander. I suspect your days and posts here are numbered.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:46 PM

53. +1 nt

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:54 PM

57. ...


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Response to rational_democrat (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:05 AM

20. The source

is someone who works at Bane. Romney can put this issue to rest by releasing his returns....ALL of them, not the partial 2010 return to "you people"

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #20)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:58 AM

31. My first thought was that this person who told Reid...

was probably "elite" enough in Romney's circles that Romney felt safe in saying, "Hey, I haven't had to pay any taxes in the last decade! Call my CPA...he's great, knows all the loopholes and is one of us!"

Romney seems to enjoy looking smart to his friends and I can just see him bragging about how much money he's saved at others' expense...oops...at the expense of you people.

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Response to Frustratedlady (Reply #31)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 07:24 PM

89. I am willing to bet

the source is some sort of underling. Someone that rMoney wouldn't even notice being in the room. IE a secratary, cleaning person, the shoe shine guy, security person, apprentice, or tailor.

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Response to rational_democrat (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:14 AM

23. when you say you don't like it

i believe you.

i am sure you don't

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Response to rational_democrat (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:33 AM

24. The government is leaking nothing

Reid said a Bain person said that Romney didn't pay taxes.

At worse this is a play to get Romney to release taxes that he said might have something in them the Democrats would use.

This is NOT like people stating as fact that Obama was born in Kenya or Kerry did not deserve the medals the Navy awarded him.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #24)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:51 AM

28. Besides on both sides we the people

deserve to see the taxes of the person who is going to be our president so we can make a informed decision about the type of person to control our lives...

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Response to marlakay (Reply #28)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:47 PM

54. +1 nt

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Response to rational_democrat (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:50 PM

56. You're the only one who doesn't. Here, anyway.

How do you know his source is breaking the law? rMoney GAVE those returns to the McCain campaign. There's no "duty to not report" what a person SAW.

And for all you know, his source could be Ann rMoney. Maybe she has tired of this campaigning, wants to have fun with her horsies, wants to wear her hideously overpriced clothing without getting mocked, and SHE called Harry Reid: "Harry, get me out of this!! I JUST CANNOT LIVE IN THAT TINY, OLD SLUM HOUSE IN DC!!! The Park Service won't let me paint it a nice shade of teal or put statues out on the lawn!!!! It's just too cruel and unusual, and there's not enough room for Rafalca and pals, even if I kick the press out of their new press center and turn it into a stable!!!"

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Response to rational_democrat (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:09 PM

63. It's only okay to be a rational Democrat

if your opponents aren't batshit crazy. I've seen no evidence of that.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:53 AM

14. Testicles, meet scalpel (figuratively, of course). Hah-hah-hah, couldn't happen to a nicer

 

fellow than Mitt Scissorhands.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:38 AM

25. 'twas indeed

 

Mitt is Meat!

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:46 AM

26. Simple Way For Rmoney to Shut Reid Up...

I predicted months ago...when Willard avoided releasing tax returns during the primaries that the main reason was he didn't pay any taxes for several years. The fact he was quick to admit to the 13.9% rate (meaning all he declared were capital gains) showed he was willing to take that hit rather than have it revealed he was dodging taxes altogether. Even of the returns he's made public (2010)...he forgot to submit the schedules that would describe his foreign holdings. Forget about 2011...those are "on extention" until after the election.

Mittens could easily call Reid's bluff...all he has to do is produce the cancelled checks from his past tax filings. Surely that has to be documented somewhere. The fact he hasn't says to me Harry's got the goods here and can and will keep playing this card as long as Willard wants to dance.

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #26)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:05 PM

35. I've said it before, I'm wondering if Rmoney's team is doctoring the returns

so when they are released, they aren't the real ones, just the ones that have been fudged enough to be plausible but won't set off public perception of the extent of his tax avoidance.

That may explain the delay. No way could the IRS get involved and "out" Rmoney's lie. That would REALLY be a violation of privacy.

I like your suggestion about Rmoney now having to produce the cancelled checks documenting his tax payment. That would actually be "real".

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #35)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:23 PM

39. Doctor them all they want...

that will send up red flags at the IRS.

Regardless of what Obama does, the IRS doesn't take kindly to the doctoring of legal tax documents.

lost mittens has painted himself into a corner.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #39)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:28 PM

41. Rmoney's returns are probably completely legal. I'm sure the IRS has already examined them

and determined there's nothing they can touch. Besides, they can only go back 3 years so the damage would be minimal if he's audited (although again, I presume they're legal).

What Rmoney doesn't want is the public perception that he's a tax cheat which a lot of legal tax loopholes look like to the rest of us 99%ers.

I presume he can file legal returns with the IRS and publicly release fudged documents for us. What is the IRS going to do? Publicly disclose Mitt Rmoney's tax returns in refutation? No way.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:40 PM

50. What will the IRS do?

they will state publically on record that the documents were "fudged" as you say.

That's would be enough to put a nail the size of a pile driver into his coffin.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #50)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:49 PM

55. Can the IRS do that? Publicly expose someone's taxes?

Honestly, I'm not sure they can or would - it seems like a huge violation of privacy, even under a FOIA request.

I'm not so sure I'd even be comfortable with it, even as I despise Rmoney and would love to see him go down.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #55)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:31 PM

69. No, all they have to say is...

mittens records don't match there.

period.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #69)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:36 PM

71. Can they even say that?

I honestly don't know. Wouldn't even that be breaching confidentiality?

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #71)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:05 PM

75. Sure they can.

confidentially ends when tax fraud is commited.

The law is still the law.

the IRS has very long arms.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #75)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:23 PM

81. But he won't have committed tax fraud. He's submitted proper docs to the IRS

I'd love to read your sources on this - that telling lies in public about your taxes is illegal. It would lay my mind to rest about this.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:47 PM

97. OhI see what you are saying. Well you got me there. nt

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Response to Javaman (Reply #97)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:10 PM

100. Not trying to "get" anyone. Truly. I really wonder about this

I believe Rmoney will go to any lengths to win this and I have no doubt he has enough financial resources to doctor his docs....

Question is: can the IRS go after him if he does? That would be excellent if they can. Honestly, however, I don't think they can and they are the only ones who could disprove his lies.....

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #71)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:07 PM

76. Even better, they can turn them over to DoJ.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #76)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:26 PM

83. I'd bet big money Rmoney's returns have already gotten another going over...

Like I said, if I had to guess I'd say his tax avoidance strategies are all legal. Its the court of public opinion that's probably Rmoney's biggest problem....

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Response to Javaman (Reply #39)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:40 PM

48. Can An Audit Be Requested Under FOIA??

You are right about ammending returns...especially those that have already been settled. It's rare for someone to go back and try to "readjust" a return...and as you say, it'd send up tons of red flags.

I'm wondering if Willard has ever been audited. I'm sure with that kind of wealth and complicated returns he had to have been examined at one point or another. While I would imagine the IRS has to keep tax information private could the request for an audit be a matter of public record??

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #35)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:27 PM

40. It's Hard To Fudge...

I'd see Rmoney's people doing a massive document dump...millions of papers with schedules and ammendments and other superfluous papers that will take weeks or months to comb through. You can't file or ammend taxes "retroactively" (like one's job title) on taxes that were already paid or settled. There's just too much in those returns that could be embarassing...and Mittens has already admitted to such. Then...because the taxes are so cumbersome, there are sure to be more questions than answers in those returns...again, another eason Willard will do all he can to avoid any disclosure and will only do so in as obtuse a manner possible.

Remember, team Willard has been planning for this run since the moment Gramps McCain conceded in '08 and had years to "clean up" these records. They had to have known that his income and his Bain "experience" would be questioned and the fact they can't retort says they hope to run out the clock to election day

Cheers...

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:32 PM

42. Oh I agree with a lot of that. Rmoney's first order will be to stonewall, stonewall, stonewall.

My first inclination is to believe he never releases anything. Remember his 2010 return that he's already released isn't even his complete return....

Secondly, if he does anything, I'm thinking it will be 1 or maybe 2 more years of fudged returns.

Thirdly would be a massive paper dump just before the election - when it would be very difficult for anyone to adequately comb through them.

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:14 PM

79. IIRC, this is exactly what he did in '08 for McCain...

They put out a shit-ton of documents on a table in a locked room and gave McCain's people a very limited time to peruse them, with no writing or recording instruments allowed. No pics, no notes, nada.

It looks like they might be trying the same thing here. It didn't work then, because the Snow Queen was the 'better' candidate. I don't think it will work now, with the American people as the judge.

But I'd love to see it happen, with the viewers being DoJ and IRS agents.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #35)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:12 PM

64. I thinkthat might be Federal Detention illegal.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #64)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:35 PM

70. Is it? I have no idea.

I can file my taxes and they'll reflect our middle class life but I can brag to my friends, family, acquaintances and anyone else that I've got millions of dollars. I could even create a (false) tax return to wave around to them to "show" that.

Do you think the IRS would go after me (or anyone else) for doing that? Wouldn't the only thing that matters to the IRS be what you file on that legal document with that federal agency?

I honestly don't know. I'd love to find out from someone who does (my tax attorney's on vacation or I'd call him and ask).

Rmoneys a big fat liar. He hasn't had a single qualm about lying to the American public about a lot of things so far. I have no doubt that if he can lie about his taxes, he would.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #70)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 04:36 PM

85. It's called fraud, and yes it's illegal. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #85)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:38 PM

92. Tons of political candidates have purposefully lied. Shrub's TANG service record

Clinton's "I never inhaled" (or had an extra marital affair...)

What's the line between lying and "fraud" for a political candidate?

I'm not trying to be sticky but do you have a real legal statute that says the IRS can and will confront someone with fraud charges if they submit their legal tax returns but then publicly lie about them? As far as I've ever known, what you submit to the IRS stays between you and them. They can't release that information. If you have some kind of statute that says differently I'd love to see it.

Cuz I really don't put this maneuver past the Rmoney campaign at all.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #92)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:56 PM

93. The line is when you can prove the fraud.

The lies you listed don't have proof refuting them. Innuendo and circumstantial information that may disprove them, but one isn't independently provable, and in the second the official documents back the lie.

Fake tax returns can be proven as fraud by comparing to the real tax returns.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #93)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:11 PM

95. But the IRS would have to produce the real tax returns. Can they do that?

I can't even imagine the IRS has any authority to release somebody's legally filed, legal tax returns (especially in order to influence a presidential campaign).

I'd like to see proof that the IRS has the authority to release that information. Only the IRS would have the authority to prove that fraud and I don't see any evidence that they would or could do so.

The military wasn't authorized to release Shrub's military record either, which would have proven his AWOL status in the TANG.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #95)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:39 PM

96. The IRS can't release them on their own

But they will respond to a subpoena.

The military wasn't authorized to release Shrub's military record either, which would have proven his AWOL status in the TANG.

Except that he got an honorable discharge. That says W wasn't AWOL. So the best case is the official record is "mixed". You'd have to prove the discharge is fraudulent and the other parts are not, and that he was never assigned to "other duties". That is going to be extremely difficult since W's CO is dead. Thus you can't prove fraud.

But if Romney files one set of taxes with the IRS, and releases a different set of taxes to the public, that's pretty easy to prove fraud. The hard part would be someone filing the initial complaint - they'd have to have enough evidence to support a subpoena to the IRS. On the plus side, anyone on McCain's campaign staff would do.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #96)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:03 PM

98. I'm not trying to be a dick but where's your evidence anyone would seek such a subpoena?

Do you have a statute I could read? I'm not a tax attorney but after being audited 3x, I have no idea who would have standing to file such a complaint (against well, anyone) that would endure court scrutiny AND result in a subpoena.

Truly, I'm grateful you're answering at all. I've asked this question numerous times and noone's touched it so please know I'm genuinely, honestly interested. I really think the Rmoney campaign may try this.

As far as someone in McCain's campaign participating in the subpoena that strikes me as laughable. Whoever looked at Rmoney's taxes 5 years ago is a big major player in the RNC since Rmoney wouldn't have allowed just anyone to see them - there's no way they'd jeopardize their rank and position in Rethug politics to "out" Rmoney, not at this stage of the game unless they were willing to throw away their entire career. Rmoney's been guarding his tax secrets for a long time and whoever vetted his returns is bound to some real secrecy. Secret keeping is a major art in politics and I'd bet big money nobody would out Rmoney's taxes at this stage of the game.

Even Reid's informant (whose theoretically friendly to the Dems) isn't going public.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #98)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 08:48 AM

106. The DoJ would seek one in a fraud investigation.

This isn't an automatic thing. A subpoena would not materialize out of thin air because a McCain staffer says "That's not what he gave us". The DoJ (or a state attorney general) would have to start an investigation and obtain said subpoena.

As far as someone in McCain's campaign participating in the subpoena that strikes me as laughable. Whoever looked at Rmoney's taxes 5 years ago is a big major player in the RNC since Rmoney wouldn't have allowed just anyone to see them

Actually, no. McCain's vetting people were 'regular' staffers. As is the custom. RNC bigwigs are busy doing RNC things, not pouring over 20 years of 100+ page tax returns that they can't understand.

Even Reid's informant (whose theoretically friendly to the Dems) isn't going public.

They don't have to. They just have to call the DoJ or one attorney general. After that, the documents themselves are all you need for the investigation.

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #26)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:44 PM

52. Exactly. Just show us the checks, or the portion on the returns that show taxes paid.

That would dispatch his objection that the Dems would twist the other info on his returns. Mitt's refusal to even disclose that tiny portion of his returns proves to me, more than anything else, that he has paid no fed income taxes during those years.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:52 AM

29. Why don't Republicans just try telling the truth?

for a change...

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Response to Berlum (Reply #29)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:35 PM

44. LOL, that will never happen!

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:03 PM

32. Check...

MATE!

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Response to qb (Reply #32)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:14 PM

65. Yep, this one is over

Every candidate they put forward had holes large enough to run Mack trucks through. Romney's turns out to be his taxes.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:40 PM

51. If Axelrod or the Administration was behind this, (and there's no way they didn't at least know)

letting Reid handle the "wetwork" on this was a stroke of genius. The President stays clean, the R-Money Bot v.2.0 gets the shiv, and the GOP and RNC get put into the political equivalent of Schroedinger's Box. Yes, it's bloody, but W. and Co. aside, this was NEVER a game for rank amateurs.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:57 PM

58. The Thing About This Debate

Is just how plausable it is that Romney paid no income taxes for 10 years. Consider, Romney has stuffed $100 million into an IRA account and has shoved another $100 million into a trust fund for his sons. Those moves have huge consequences and there sheer size is just mind boggling.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:01 PM

59. It was and is brilliant

mud slinging (much like everything coming out of the Republican party), but beautiful in style and deliverance. In the days of the Olympics, I do believe Harry Reid is walking away with the gold in political maneuvering.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:01 PM

60. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, scheming daemons.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:03 PM

61. I've been saying from day one that Obama can just phone it in.

I'm so looking forward to the "debates". This move by Reid is not only the game changer, it's the game finisher.

Or as old time arcade machines used to say. GAME OVER.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #61)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 06:54 AM

105. You are forgetting something

Rmoney is white.

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Response to eridani (Reply #105)

Thu Aug 9, 2012, 04:42 PM

109. You are the second person to point that out to me this week

Thing is, Obama was black in 2008 and he hasn't turned any blacker. I am determined to believe that the majority of voters are not racist. I know some are and especially in the south, where I lived much of my life, but damn it, Romney isn't white, he's a red mean devil creature.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:26 PM

66. Putting in the final nail



Since their only defense is to to have every conservative mouthpiece scream in total
indignation about what a below the belt, amoral request it is to ask a person to prove
income taxes the left needs to call these people out about their LACK of indignation
about people demanding our president to prove his birth.

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Response to kuus27 (Reply #66)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:25 PM

82. But the President actually "released" his birth certificate

the nuts just paused long enough to call it a forgery and kept on chugging. The wackos keep making the accusations after they have been proven wrong. Romney hasn't proven anybody wrong.

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Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #82)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 09:49 AM

107. Or they simply deny that Obama ever released his birth certificate

I don't know if you can even call it lying, since wingnuts have a quite incredible capacity for convincing themselves that something is true simply because they want it to be true. In their "minds", Obama never released his birth certificate, and anyone who says different is a liberal, and can therefore be discounted as a credible source.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:51 PM

74. Harry is landing haymakers!

GOP forgot to duck.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:19 PM

80. It's what they would do

Only thing is, I think Harry is telling the truth.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 08:48 PM

90. As if Harry Reid asked "Do you still beat your wife?" nt

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Response to Betsy Ross (Reply #90)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 01:27 AM

102. No, not really. There is no flaw in the logic of Reid's statement.

Reid didn't ask a loaded question, he truthfully shared information. Since Romney is in control of the evidence that would disprove (or prove) what Reid said, Romney is still beating himself.

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 08:55 PM

91. First question for the Veeper- 'Did you provide more or less than 5 years of tax returns to Romney?'


They'll avoid the answer, but let's get the question into voter's minds now

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:04 PM

99. re:Republicans basically admit that Harry Reid's maneuver was BRILLIANT

wonder if the repugs will quit whining about obamas birth certificate now . go harry go

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Response to scheming daemons (Original post)

Wed Aug 8, 2012, 02:25 AM

103. Bruce Springsteen's "Cover Me"

 

To Bruce Springsteen's, "Cover Me"

The times are tough now, just getting tougher 
This old world is rough, it's just getting rougher 

Denounce Harry Reid, come on baby, denounce Harry Reid
Well I'm looking for a liberal
who's willing to denounce Harry Reid

Betray your party, come on baby, betray your President
I promise I won't let them find out
You won't get a liberal shout out

Denounce Harry Reid, shut the door and  denounce Harry Reid
Well I'm looking for a liberal who will come on in and denounce Harry Reid

Outside of Reince  Priebus , 
we don't know who'lll save us
I know  this election is blowing 
Turn out the light, bolt the door 
I ain't going out there no more 

Where are the liberals who just roll overboard 
They used to be everywhere,  I can't see any more, 
Denounce Harry Reid, come on and denounce Harry Reid

I'm looking for a liberal who will come on in and denounce Harry Reid
Looking for a liberal who will come on in and denounce Harry Reid

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